Is it possible to burn fat while bulking?

[calvinIII]

I Know this is a freqently asked question, but I am trying to build as much muscle as i can. Which Means a "Bulking Diet"
But I am very concerned about gaining any more fat than I already have.
I am 6' , 205lbs and approx. 15% bf.
I am "Attempting" to taken around 300 g of Protein per day and Keep my carbs to a moderate level. This amount of protein has been rather hard to acheive, but i stay pretty close.
I am also on a 12 cycle of test ,d-bol, and winstrol( at the end).

Should I be worried about gaining the fat right now or should I worry about that as I begin to cut with the winny.

Any help with My Confusion is appreciated.

 

[bigmag]

If you're worried about getting fatter, I'd suggest only doing cardio once or twice a week for 30 min. max. I wouldn't do any more than that because cardio inhibits growth.

 

[diamonddiceclay]

you should put the weight on now and then cut at the right time

 

[calvinIII]

I here that to much cardio will slow muscle growth, but how much is to much. I have been doing approx. 30 min of cardio 3-4 times a week. Is this to much?
Also should try shorter but more intense cardio, like sprints or "HIIT" type workouts.

 

[MS]

I would disagree with Diamond about bulking first. At 15%bf you are not obese, but you're not exactly lean.

I plagerized this from Dave Greenwalt because I think it illustrates the point nicely:

Body fat content influences the body composition response
to nutrition and exercise. Forbes GB. Ann N Y Acad Sci 2000
May;904:359-65

This paper reviewed several studies in which subjects
were overfed to varying degrees in order to produce weight
gain.

1) In subjects overfed, initial body fat level is also
important. In fact, in a few studies, subjects with low
initial levels of body fat (10kg) gained about 70% of their
weight gain as lean body mass (and only 30% was fat mass).
These data also show that in subjects starting with 20kg and
40kg of body fat, only 30% and 20% of the weight gained was
lean body mass (while 70% and 80% of the weight gained comes
from increased fat mass).

Comments:

From overfeeding studies, it is clear that lean
individuals gain less fat and more lbm when overfeeding when
compared to their fatter counterparts. In fact, this study
generated a predictive equation indicating that the ratio of
lean mass gained to total weight gained is related to
initial fat mass by the following equation:

Lean Mass Gain / Weight Gain = 10.4 / {10.4 + initial fat
weight (kg)}

Therefore for someone who is 92kg (200lbs) and 5% body
(4.6kg fat), about 70% of the weight gained during an
overfeeding phase can be expected to be lean body mass. In
someone who is 92kg and 10% body fat (9.2kg of fat), 53% of
weight gained will be lean body mass. So perhaps a good
idea is to only overfeed when relatively lean. If you are
200lbs and around 10-15% body fat, about half the weight you
gain will be fat and half will be muscle. If you try to
gain when fatter than 15%, much of the weight you gain will
be fat mass.

Keep in mind none of these test subkects were using AAS.
Good luck whatever you decide to do.

 

[diamonddiceclay]

I here that to much cardio will slow muscle growth, but how much is to much. I have been doing approx. 30 min of cardio 3-4 times a week. Is this to much?
Also should try shorter but more intense cardio, like sprints or "HIIT" type workouts.

IF YOU WANT TO BULK, DO ZERO CARDIO-JUST GAIN MASS AND THEN CUT WHEN YOU WANT TO

 

[Hoffmeister]

MS:

I've seen this study discussed before. What bothers me is the "predictive equation" only uses absolute levels of fat, and not really "leanness".

Based on the formula, a 300 lbs person at 10% bodyfat would put on the same amount of fat as a 150 lbs person at 20% bodyfat.

It would be interesting to see the actual overall weights of the subjects, too.

 

[Punschkrapfen]

From overfeeding studies, it is clear that lean
individuals gain less fat and more lbm when overfeeding when
compared to their fatter counterparts. In fact, this study

they did not ask why the ppl where lean or fat before they entered the study. Where they lean because they have an efficient metabolism or where these otherwise fat people, who dieted beforehand?
We could have 2 lean people, where one is living a normal life and the other one has just dieted down to this level. I am sure, if we overfeed the latter one, he will first gain all his lost fat back. I know that these results don't work for me. I do gain these ~70% in fat when i start out lean and overeat. Did it at least a half dozen times in the last 5 years.

 

[rex racer]

Were the people in the studies mesomorphs or ectomorphs? If you believe that certain body types are prone to putting on more fat, then calories and body composition make alot of sense. Rex.

 

[rnch]

burning fat while bulking....

i'm in the fouth week of a 10 week cycle of test/eq/winnie.

i have gained appx. 8 pounds so far, but my favorite levis are slightly looser, almost ready to take in one notch on my belt.

nobody has noticed any bloatng in my face or elsewhere; so i'm assuming moft of the weight gain is muscle.

i'm following a high protien, low carb, low fat diet, lifting for 60 to 75 minutes 3 times per week, cardio 30 to 40 minutes twice per week.

 

[fiatconspiracy]

dont "attempt" 300 grams of protein, actually eat it or more! yeah i know it sucks but do it, every night before bed eat 2lbs of not fat cottage cheese, about 120 grams of protein....

 

[MS]

Given the amount of AAS that you're taking it is 'possible' gain less fat than someone not using AAS. And given that you're not even certian of your %bf or how much of what gear your using etc.... it's all academic. I was merely observing that at 15%bf you might consider cutting first, then adding muscle.

rex racer: The article that that info was taken from was a review article encompassing the last 10 years of research, including Forbes' own work on identical twins (therefore controlling for different body types and metabolism), as well as studies on other mammals (again using inbred animals to control for genetic and metabolic differences).

Hoffmeister: Of course the predictive equation uses absolute fat. I'm not sure how that differs from leaness?? This is a conceptual problem that I've noticed a lot of females have. They gain 20 lbs but are amazed that their PERCENT bodyfat has dropped. In reality they still have just as much fat as before (or even more), it's just a smaller proportion of their total weight on the scales comes from fat. Many bodybuilders also make this confusion when calculation LBM gains (assuming it's muscle) without factoring in the water component. Post competition is a classic example, but androgenic AAS cycles, high carb diets etc... also have this effect.

In summary, the last decade of research on large numbers of people of all ages, genders, activity level and body types (and other animals) indicate that it is easier to gain a greater % LBM if you start from lean, and you're more likely to gain fat if you 'bulk' when you're not already lean. The converse is true for dieting. 15%bf is not considered 'lean' for a male, but no one has done studies on AAS use for 15% bf males bulking (outside of the anabolic discussion boards LOL).

But since this is all academic and you're intent on gaining some mass with minimal fat on an AAS cycle, then the answer is train heavy, keep your protein intake high and avoid processed carbs. Keep the fats as clean as possible and incorporate some moderate cardio 2-3 times per week. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

 

[Hoffmeister]

MS, I wasn't questioning the overall application of the studies.

But the example, while admittedly extreme, I think illustrates how absolute weight differs from "leanness".

A 300 lbs man at 10% would be considered at least somewhat "lean".

A 150 lbs man at 20% definitely would NOT.

Yet the equation would predict the SAME percentage of LBM gain.

 

[rex racer]

MS
Great study and wonderful info!
Thanks, Rex

 

[MS]

I see what you're saying Hoffmeister. It is only a predictive equation, but drawn from a lot of individual measurements. Though your example is an extreme one, it illustrates pretty well what we know in the real world (eg a pro male BB at 300lbs and 10%bf). The closer you get to your absolute physical limit of muscle hypertrophy, the harder it becomes to gain additional LBM. This is why the top pro BBs aren't increasing in muscle mass (even with all the AAS they use) as much as the 150lb/20%bf 18 year old male who's just discovered good nutrition and weight training.
Like all predictive equations (such as how to calculate %bf from skinfold measurements) it is not without error, but it can be used to create general guidelines for when to diet and when to bulk for optimal results.

 

[meatpipe]

Bulk

Just Bulk!!! Eat tons of clean food, shit eat little children if they walk by and you need calories. Right now I am bulking, with about 4,000 cal. Mostly from lean red meat, chicken, nat. peanut butter, multi grain bread, mashed potatoes, yams, brown rice and multi grain bread! When I diet I will be doing fourteen weeks of nothing but cod and brown rice and some egg whites! Five days a week I will eat two pounds of cod and two bags of rice w/tomatoe puree (apr. 2000 cal) 2 days a week I will carb deplete and eat four pounds of cod and 18 egg whites!! plus metamucil so I can shit!! For now I am GROWING and EATING thats why its called bulking!!!

 

[njachest]

Okay I'm 170 lbs. and 8.4% bf. That's a little more than 14 lbs of fat. Should I bulk yet or get down to 5% first and then bulk? Also if it matters my age is 30 years old.

 

[MS]

Heck, at ~8%bf you're in prime condition for bulking. You could 'bulk' up to ~12%bf and prolly gain a heap of muscle, then cut back down again. No way would I recommend a guy who is over 12-15%bf to consider bulking first, but I know some guys just wanna be big no matter what. Ultimately it comes down to personal choice. But make your choices educated!