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is it possible........ do i have no genetic limitations???

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Exodus

Exodus

High End Bro
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ok, this goes along with the debate that a lot of people will remember where debaser was stating the body has limitations genetically, and most everyone else argued the opposite.

i have always had small wrist, last time i checked under 7 inches. and i have always been able to wrap my middle finger and thumb around the smallest point of my wrist and touch the two fingers together. actually i could touch my middle finger to the first joint on my thumb, closet to the nail.

i have now been into powerlifting for the second time in my life for the last 6.5 months as well as strongman contest as well. i have started into heavy lockouts, lots of maxes, and plenty of overhead pressing.

i could touch my fingers together for a long time, i first found out 4 years ago when i began bodybuilding and wanted to know what my body type was. i could do this last summer, when i was calculating my bodyfat.

but now......... I CANT EVEN TOUCH THE MIDDLE FINGER AND THUMB AROUND THE SMALLEST POINT OF MY WRIST AT ALL!!!

what happened........ i know that bone density is possible, but what about of this magnitude within 1 years......... and i was bodybuilding for half of that year!??!?!!?

someone please shed some light on this subject.

X
 
You bring up a point that I have considered for years, and it is due to my own personal experience, not a study or any literature. I truly believe that through heavy training (in the 1-3 rep range) and feeding your body what it needs to grow and then some, you can make improvements not only to your muscle size, but to your overall frame and structure, and in essence change your body type.

Now, there are gonna be a number of posts challenging what we just said and posting stidies and facts and statistics and all that dribble, but save it. I said what I said agreeing with Exodus because I see it in myself, and I think I have ADHD because I couldn't sit still for 5 seconds to read some boring article that "proves me wrong". You know your own body and you are aware of changes and the cause of them.

By the way, congrats, I read youe sig, I didn't know you were up to 280lbs......Last we talked you were like 260-265, did you notice a direct increase in your strength and energy with the added 20lbs? or do you feel you could do without it?
 
You have muscles in your wrist.


Train like you have no limits. It's the only way to find out.
 
spatts said:
You have muscles in your wrist.


Train like you have no limits. It's the only way to find out.
Click to expand...

true.... and dont worry about me spatts, i dont belive in limitations,

but the thing is this, my wrist are still boney. so thats what made me wonder. but this is over an inch of an increase.

and bbbd........ thanks man, yeah ive put on some fat, but every week my maxes go up, so as long as they do........... if it aint broke dont fix it, you know.

X
 
I can't wear my wedding ring anymore. I don't know if it's because my fingers are fatter or the little tiny muscles there got bigger. Kinda sucks because it used to be loose so I had it sized down, a few months later the thing doesn't fit at all.
 
well that happens to me all the time........... i dieted down getting ready for a bodybuilding contest, and my ring kept sliding off. when i bulk, like now, its taking more and more effort to get my ring on and off.

X
 
wrists are joints-- theyre determined by genetics-- cant be built up by adding muscle...if you cant touch your fingers around it anymore-- Id say that your dexterity in your hands has changed or your fingers are swollen up or something...you cant build muscle in your wrists!!

sorry, but its true :)
 
spatts said:
Train like you have no limits. It's the only way to find out.
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't think there are any set limits... Everyday I am convinced of this more and more... Your body is a living thing and will continue to adapt... the only limiting factor I see is the time you have to do it in (ie- most of us will die sometime)
 
sorry MS. BVH - but like spatts just asked....... what moves around your wrist??? Muscles

i was overhead pressing 250 about 3 months ago. and my wrist would kill me cause they werent used to it. now i can do ohp rack lockouts with 340 for reps with no straps at all.

im wondering if your bones can get thicker..... and my hands are swelling up, but they are not to some extra ordinary degree. and im at the same weight i was at 1 year ago when i could do it.

and there is no need for steriods, just a desire. and some most people are so stubborn with thier training thinking that it is the only way, that when they plateau after a couple of years, they start hitting the juice. instead of finding a way around it, they just take the easy way.

X
 
Also the muscles in your wrist often go between, under, over bones, so your bones may "feel" hard on the outside, but that doesen't mean you aren't experiencing hypertrophy below/inside that plane.

The flexor digitorum superficialis flexor carpi radialis, flexor pollicis longus, palmaris longus, etc....all capable of growing and getting stronger.

Ever looked at the difference in size between the wrists/hands of a butcher?
 
MsBeverlyHills said:
& BTW--everyone has genetic limitations or there would be no need for steriods.
Click to expand...

Yet I am bigger, stronger and leaner than a lot of steriod users (who don't always look or lift like it)... And I am sure there are better examples than myself... I am actually trying NOT to gain any more significant mass at this time, but rather trying to better utilize what I already have... I am sure I could hit a pretty lean 300 within a couple years if I wanted to....

I don't think steroids change your genetic limitations any... I think they are a tool-like any other training aid-which aid recovery/increases gains, etc... I do not think they grant you any "magical" abilities or new limitations that you would not have made with adequate time though...

The limitations are in one's mind- there are tons of users that make no real progress yet use huge doses of steroids-visit the anabolic board and you will see tons of examples... The people that do make huge progress I feel would have made it anyway- the steroids only sped up the process... There are lots of examples of this as well...
 
spatts said:
Also the muscles in your wrist often go between, under, over bones, so your bones may "feel" hard on the outside, but that doesen't mean you aren't experiencing hypertrophy below/inside that plane.

The flexor digitorum superficialis flexor carpi radialis, flexor pollicis longus, palmaris longus, etc....all capable of growing and getting stronger.

Ever looked at the difference in size between the wrists/hands of a butcher?
Click to expand...
Dang spatts- awesome knowlege of anatomy- you sound like a med student...:)
 
Don't be fooled, I had to bust out my old text book. I couldn't remember what all was in there. There's more, but I got tired of typing it out. Damn Latin. :)
 
Forgive my ignorance , but don't steriods do a little more than speed up the process? I understand they speed recovery, and increase gain, but do they not also create hyperplasia(sp?) that would not be possible for a natural lifter? This is a question, I am not trying to say anyone is wrong, i just want to make sure I understand.
 
Shhh!- No, say this next time:

spatts said:
I did not even have to bust out my old text book. I think I must remember every word printed in there. There's more, but I got tired of typing it out. Curse that damn photographic memory! :)
Click to expand...
 
overhead, I don't know of a whole lot of steroids that cause significant hyperplasia. In fact, it's been argued that only fina can cause any significant amount of hyperplasia when taken alone, but it can also change the amount of DNA in a cell and will recruit muscle cells that are dormant. Very few AS/AAS, taken alone, will do anything. If you add hGH in there, I could see it.
 
Thanks Spatts. I really do not have much knowledge in that area, which is why I have stayed away from them so far. So basically they do just allow for you to bigger and stronger in less time than it would take naturally. I guess that does not even tell the whole story becuase most people would never be able to increase their testosterone levels that high without injecting. Oh well, time to do some more research I guess :D
 
spatts, correct me if im wrong, but HGH isnt illegal is it, you just have to have a prescription, which is only a matter of knowing the right doctor.

but you think they increase in growth in my wrist comes from maybe internal muscles of the wrist???

X
 
The test levels go back down though, and you won't keep more muscle size than you can naturally support. So if you know someone who is a "Born again natural" they may have gotten where they are faster, but if they are clean, then they are there because it was within their limits. Just a different timeline.
 
spatts said:
Exodus, IMO, hypertrophy, water and fat.
Click to expand...

gotcha........... thanks sweetie!!!!:D

X
 
That makes sense. The people that I do know well that use (which is not many) have not stopped, I am not sure they can :). Sorry to hijack your thread Exodus, I would post these questions on the anabolic board but i am not up for a bashing about the head and shoulders today.
 
Exodus said:


true.... and dont worry about me spatts, i dont belive in limitations,

but the thing is this, my wrist are still boney. so thats what made me wonder. but this is over an inch of an increase.

and bbbd........ thanks man, yeah ive put on some fat, but every week my maxes go up, so as long as they do........... if it aint broke dont fix it, you know.

X
Click to expand...

hey..i have those wrist too and i'm still able to touch mine. don't worry about that bro, its just "adapation" where your wrist is gettin thicker because of what you've been doing. i was lookin at tape one of WSB seminar and dave tate made a point that there is no such thing as "genetic limitations"...just thought i would pass that along to ya. tb
 
spatts said:
you won't keep more muscle size than you can naturally support.
Click to expand...


How much is this? Do you think it is really limited other than by 1)use the muscle or it will atrophy, and 2) how much you can eat
 
But the point is though- it is not really limted as long as you can use it and feed it...

As far as hyperplasia goes, I woudl say the same- your size will technically limited by the size of the individual muscle fibers (hypertrophy) and how many fibers there are (hyperplasia), but is there really a limit to the hyperplasia that can occur? Hyperplasia is thought to also occur in non AS subjects- though slowly... However, selective breeding has yielded lines of poultry with substantial myofiber hyperplasia, (though little is known about what genes have been altered during the course of selection) There is no reason humans could also have similar hightened potential...

either way- I think people do possibly have some limits though I think at some point it would be more logistical (blood/nutrient supply, having to do with the limits of the blood system to supply all that mass efficiently) rather than genetic on muscle- though I think it is not worthwile to think about it as none of us have even gotten close (though some are closer than others)
 
spatts said:
Hyperplasia is rare.

...from what I read.
Click to expand...

Yes definitely- but there is potential for more...

.... but in a couple hundred thousand years, we could have some really jacked chickens walking around!

The way I read this is- pick your partners based on their hyperplasia genes... in several thousand generations your ancestors will be the hugest around! j/k

For real though- all this aside- I don't think any of us work anywhere near hard enough, or long enough to hit any limits which might actually exist if they do... (and there are some pretty hard working people out there)

Thus it is really all potential debate topics to me....(and any theories have to be taken with a grain of salt)

You only real limit is what you determine- how hard you work and for how long....
 
spatts said:
Hey, I think I might be good stock!

....this is why Clint and I can't have kids. :(

lol
Click to expand...

This is funny to me particularly... at his peak my grandfather was 6'5, and his wife was 4'10... my dad was about 6'3, and my mom 5'.... I am about 6'1 1/2.... when I was younger I was PI$$ED I was not taller and blamed it on my dad and Gdad for marrying short women... I made a decision and never dated a girl shorter than 5'9 from HS on(my wife is about 5'9-5'10)... I was determined not to shortchange my kids when I have some someday.... Hopefully the trend will reverse in the next generation....

also all of them were or had been some kind of athlete, and had athletes in the family, and a two of them were awesome athletes- olympic level...

funny and wierd but true...
 
Here is a good question- if some scientist thought you had good genetics- IE "high limitation levels" and wanted to use your genetics to make a kid- would you let them? would you be interested in the proposition to ANY degree (even if you had to impose some caveats?)
 
That is funny. My mom and dad are both really muscular but never workout. I guess I should send them thank you cards. lol
 
Becoming said:
Here is a good question- if some scientist thought you had good genetics- IE "high limitation levels" and wanted to use your genetics to make a kid- would you let them? would you be interested in the proposition to ANY degree (even if you had to impose some caveats?)
Click to expand...

That deserves its own thead. lol


I attempted to sell my eggs to a family who couldn't have kids once. It was down to 3 fo us. They requested that the person be at least 1/8 jewish, or something like that. I'm not at all, so it didn't work out. It did weird me out a tad though, and it was only cool because I knew the couple really wanted a kid. I'm not sure I could do it just to make superbabies...unless I could raise them too.
 
spatts said:
That is funny. My mom and dad are both really muscular but never workout. I guess I should send them thank you cards. lol
Click to expand...

I think it should be a priority... where do they make "thanks for my genetics" parents day cards?
 
Exodus- Wolfe's Law bone remodeling will occur due to external stress place on it and form stress lines due to outside force. Bones can grow after we seal the growth plate, slowly but the can grow horizontally due to oppositional stress
 
Exodus said:
ok, this goes along with the debate that a lot of people will remember where debaser was stating the body has limitations genetically, and most everyone else argued the opposite.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't have gone that far. If I posted a poll on the boards "Do you think genetic limitations exist?" I bet the winner would be "yes" by a pretty overwhelming margin. I'm not trying to rekindle a debate here. But genes do exist. We aren't supernatural.
 
My genes limit me to a 1700 squat, 1500 deadlift, and 1250 bench.
 
Is that all? What's interesting is that you might not be incredibly far off...but to be frank, it would take quite a bit of drugs to reach such a level, and your health would probably be compromised beforehand.
 
spatts said:
Hey, I think I might be good stock!

....this is why Clint and I can't have kids. :(

lol
Click to expand...

Well...since you TURNED ME DOWN!!!! :bawling: We would have some beautiful children though. Dark hair, dark skin, dark eyes, big legs, big feet, big hands, nice butts, etc... And they would have to be animals in bed... (wait...maybe I was just fantasizing a bit...lol).

On a side note...my boss (Mike Vinson) used to be a powerlifter. We measured his wrists the other day at 5.5" (well, almost that big) and he squatted over 700, benched 450, and pulled 680 (I believe) all in meets... ALSO...it was DRUG-FREE with with the support gear of 1989!!!!! I can never say that it is his genetics, the drugs that he uses, OR the support gear that did the work. HE DID IT. I talk to him all the time, and when the word limitations comes up...he has no clue what it is.

B True
 
How tall is he? I'm not trying to diminish his accomplishments in any way, as those are awesome lifts at any height. I'm just curious. It would see less extreme if he were say, 5'2" as opposed to a 6'6" guy with 5.5" wrists.
 
Debaser said:
How tall is he? I'm not trying to diminish his accomplishments in any way, as those are awesome lifts at any height. I'm just curious. It would see less extreme if he were say, 5'2" as opposed to a 6'6" guy with 5.5" wrists.
Click to expand...

For your information he is 5'8" to 5'10".

B True
 
i didnt read thru the posts so it may have been given, but one advantage of general resistance training is an increase in bone density...that is why it is a great preventer of osteoporosis
 
When hammer, t3c, and I lift we always pass on the glove, the muscletech shirt, and ofcourse the stick. With the combination of the three, there is no stopping us!

-sk
 
sk* said:
When hammer, t3c, and I lift we always pass on the glove, the muscletech shirt, and ofcourse the stick. With the combination of the three, there is no stopping us!

-sk
Click to expand...

I would have to agree with you. We have some SERIOUS voodoo going on.

lolololol
 
I don't have time to read this whole thread but...

im wondering if your bones can get thicker..... and my hands are swelling up, but they are not to some extra ordinary degree. and im at the same weight i was at 1 year ago when i could do it.
Click to expand...

Have you ever heard of OsteoBlasts?

Look it up.. I'm not 100% sure if it is possible in grown adults...

But elementary schools are contemplating ringing a bell every hour and making the children do 10 jumps.

If you look at any hockey players feet, you will see their big toe is very wide from being bumped into the skate... again osteoblasts...

My uncle, who is just finishing his human kinetics degree was explaining them to me a few months ago..

Osteoblasts are when significant ammount of stress is put on a bone, osteoblasts will ocur inside the bone, densifying it and increasing its size. Making it stronger. It is kind of the same prinicple as weight lifting.. putt stress on the muscle and it will grow.

Look it up... I am kind of rushed to go to bed here as I work tomorrow.. but If i can dig up a little mroe info on it tomorrow for you guys I will.

Thanks
Ryan
 
Im pretty sure if I reach out and shook my "former" hand a few years back, Id crush it. I still got puny forearms but can grip 700+.
I can still touch my middle finger and thumb together, around the small of my wrist. My fingers have become noticeably thicker however, and the fuckers ae growing little hamstrings! I swear! hehe Just the other day I was fucking around, and shoved my index finger into a glass bottle, as far as it would go. hehe It got stuck for a long time! I somehow managed to get it off. =)
 
Exodus said:
sorry MS. BVH - but like spatts just asked....... what moves around your wrist??? Muscles

i was overhead pressing 250 about 3 months ago. and my wrist would kill me cause they werent used to it. now i can do ohp rack lockouts with 340 for reps with no straps at all.

im wondering if your bones can get thicker..... and my hands are swelling up, but they are not to some extra ordinary degree. and im at the same weight i was at 1 year ago when i could do it.

and there is no need for steriods, just a desire. and some most people are so stubborn with thier training thinking that it is the only way, that when they plateau after a couple of years, they start hitting the juice. instead of finding a way around it, they just take the easy way.

X
Click to expand...


I agree 100% about everyone looking for the easy route. Many times, even those whove hardly trained at all! If you tear a muscle and feed it enough, why would it decide to stop growing?

You can lockout 340 on OHP for reps? Sounds like youd be lifting a hell of alot more then 200 with that strength. Im not sure how exactly and OHP is done though. Like a standing military? Do you use body momentum? ThanX
 
WalkingBeast said:
You can lockout 340 on OHP for reps? Sounds like youd be lifting a hell of alot more then 200 with that strength. Im not sure how exactly and OHP is done though. Like a standing military? Do you use body momentum? ThanX
Click to expand...

i put a bench in the powerrack and set the pins so that i have 3 inch's range of motion. sturdy my torso, then press. so no leg drive at all.

X
 
Me too. I used to be able to touch my middle finger to thumb for a few years. Now I can't. Iwas always bummed about that too. :)
 
Parabellum said:
Me too. I used to be able to touch my middle finger to thumb for a few years. Now I can't. Iwas always bummed about that too. :)
Click to expand...

i wonder if one day i switch back to bodybuilding....... with the bone size decrease???

X
 
Parabellum said:
Me too. I used to be able to touch my middle finger to thumb for a few years. Now I can't. Iwas always bummed about that too. :)
Click to expand...

man..i have bitch wrists and would like to have some thick ones myself...:) tb
 
The only good thing about small wrists (as I see it) is that it makes your forearms look bigger. So for aesthetics, it's a good thing. Of course I've seen guys with large wrists with enormous forearms that have never even worked out, so it still evens out :D
 
Exodus said:


i put a bench in the powerrack and set the pins so that i have 3 inch's range of motion. sturdy my torso, then press. so no leg drive at all.

X
Click to expand...


Nice! If you can push 340 for 3 inches, why not go up in weight on the full range? Just seems strange, cuz I cant press 340 on a shoulder press for any range, but have done over 245 on the military press. Never really tried maxing on it, either. When I do them I use the back support also. Do you use it? ThanX
 
Debaser said:
The only good thing about small wrists (as I see it) is that it makes your forearms look bigger. So for aesthetics, it's a good thing. Of course I've seen guys with large wrists with enormous forearms that have never even worked out, so it still evens out :D
Click to expand...

man...don't tell me that!!LOL. i just hate having this damn wrist..i wouldn't mind trading wrists with Exodus right now!!!:D tb
 
Mike_Rojas said:
Tell me the truth.. Is there any hope for me??
wrist.jpg
Click to expand...

I've never understood where people can say that they can measure their bone frame by how far their fingers go around THEIR wrist. How does that make sense???

Most often, people with bigger wrists...will have longer hands and fingers...

B True
 
Dozing21 said:
Any hope? Thank god you have small joints. This is optimal for symmetry. Big wrists, waist, ankles etc. = bad,
Click to expand...

:bawling:

I guess that me and IronLion are both screwed :bawling:

We will never be pretty or symmetrical :( :( :(

B True
 
b fold the truth said:


I've never understood where people can say that they can measure their bone frame by how far their fingers go around THEIR wrist. How does that make sense???

Most often, people with bigger wrists...will have longer hands and fingers...

B True
Click to expand...

I have very small wrists AND very small hands. Most womens rings will fit on my fingers.


I guess I can never lift heavy.........:rolleyes:



Joker
 
My mom has thicker wrists than I do!

I can almost reach my thumb and middle finger around my ankle - about a half inch gap.
 
this is where i was talking about i could wrap my thumbs around, and now i cant, not by a long shot.

mike%20rojas.bmp


X
 
I agree with bfold. Wrapping your hand around your wrist says nothing, what if you just had big hands? An actual measurement (measure above the styloid process, that bony protrusion on the side of your wrist--when I say above, I mean on the hand side of this lump) is much more informative.
 
You know...I keep looking at all these pics and trying to imagine ANOTHER topic that could go along with it. The possibilities are endless.

I'm gonna jam my hand this far up your...

Just a thought...

B True
 
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