Is it pointless to keep running cycles? (lost all gains)

[technology_1]

Ok here's the deal. I ran a H-drol cycle. CLean as can be. Gained around 5-10lbs. I got to around 187lbs ripped to hell, in close to competition shape, if not competition shape at around 5'9-10 (off by maybe 5-8lbs). So I came off, and thought I'd be fine. Ran PCT, Nolva 40/40/20/20

Fast forward about 3 months, and I actually started GROWING on top of it. I was shocked obviously because I'd already run my cycle, stopped, PCTd and 3 months later, yet here I was... still growing. I felt recovered. I felt amazing actually. Unfortunately around month 4-5... I experienced what I can only describe as a crash... I started losing my gains/conditioning rapidly. Dick stopped working COMPLETELY. Felt lethargic all the time. I freaked out, ran Nolva again with no effect. I wanted to run clomid as well, but decided against it. WHat was happening was actually more of a reverse recomp. I lost no weight, but my conditioning got worse and worse from week to week to month. This lasted 4-6 months of feeling like utter crap. Eventually, I lost all my gains from the cycle and reverted back to my old conditioning. Stayed the same weight.

What is the deal here? Why did it take so long for me to crash? Was it that the hormones were still acting on the receptors in my system long after I discontinued use of Halo? I thought it had a very short half life and was in and out of your system in days? The brand I used was Iron Labs Halo-XT btw.

It's all very confusing to me because it took so damn long for me to lose my gains. And when I did I ALSO experienced a mythical crash on top of it.. I just find this weird that the crash came AFTER I was feeling better.. Any input from you guys would be greatly appreciated. Or any similar experiences.

Also, does this mean any further cycles of anything are a waste of time since I will just lose all my gains anyway? Is it time to start blasting and cruising? For just an extra 5lbs of muscle and a loss of 5lbs of fat it seems like a true waste to blast and cruise, and also very sad that I got so close to my goal physique by a few measly pounds of muscle and fat and lost it. I really do wish I could keep the gains... maybe I just picked the wrong compound? Is it possible that I can keep gains better from another cycle than I will from this compound? (i.e. maybe a SARM is better?) Or am I guaranteed to lose all my gains and conditioning over time?

 

[OptimusPrime69]

On cycle, you have extra hormones in your body to support the additional muscle you've built. When you stop, your body cannot support the muscle you've built because it doesn't produce enough hormones on its own. You will only hold as much muscle as your body can naturally support. Blasting and cruising mitigates this problem, however you will never look as good off cycle as you do on cycle, as the effects of whatever anabolics you were running will disappear, you may also lose some strength and the constant pumped look, but you should be able to hold most of the muscle tissue you've built if cruising at an appropriate dose.

When you're off a blast, your cruise should be enough to support the muscle you've built, next blast builds more, etc. I cruise on 375mg test e e5d, but I am also fairly large. On this dose I've lost a little size and strength from my last blast, but I am still leaps and bounds ahead of what I was before my blast.

 

[Superduperbroncos]

Are you still experiencing the side effects of being shutdown? Get bloodwork done and find out your test levels. Pct alone is really not enough to 'keep your gains'. Pct is really just a part of your bridge into your next cycle. If you dont run a good bridge, your workouts as well as results will defiantly suffer. What did you do for your bridge?

 

[RickRock13]

Anytime you come off, you will lose some because of the drop in hormone levels. However, with the right diet, training, and PCT you should be able to hold the majority of your gains. One problem I can see is that your PCT was insufficient. Run a better PCT and use things like sarms in between cycles to continue to make progress whether on cycle or off

Optimal PCT for best recovery:

Liquid Clomid 50/50/25/25 (AncillaryGuys // AG-Guys.com - The #1 online Natural Ancillary retailer!)
Liquid Aromasin (AncillaryGuys // AG-Guys.com - The #1 online Natural Ancillary retailer!)
Test Stack 17 http://w3.teststackrx.com/102.html
Ostarine 25mg per day (SARMS1.COM - The best Selective androgen receptor modulators)

 

[technology_1]

Are you still experiencing the side effects of being shutdown? Get bloodwork done and find out your test levels. Pct alone is really not enough to 'keep your gains'. Pct is really just a part of your bridge into your next cycle. If you dont run a good bridge, your workouts as well as results will defiantly suffer. What did you do for your bridge?

I didn't run anything to bridge as it was my first cycle. I started off on a very respectable physique (extremely lean too), but wanted just a little more as I thought I was almost at my goal. I only really went in knowing about cycling and PCT... Now that I've been on, it's good to know what to expect though.

yes I did run blood work when I expreinced the crash, and it freaked me out. I did it privately, and they did no Estradiol unfortunately. These were my scores:

How do they look?

 

[RickRock13]

Your liver values are quite high out of range. Hormone levels are in range and don't look too bad to me, but I am curious where your estrogen is at since it wasn't tested.

 

[Superduperbroncos]

Im just curious, what are your current goals? Do you plan on continuing to train/cycle to recover what you have lost?

 

[technology_1]

Your liver values are quite high out of range. Hormone levels are in range and don't look too bad to me, but I am curious where your estrogen is at since it wasn't tested.

Yeah, its weird. I asked them why they didn't and they said Estrogen and Estradiol cost extra. Very unusual pricing... Should I be worried about the liver values?

 

[technology_1]

Im just curious, what are your current goals? Do you plan on continuing to train/cycle to recover what you have lost?

God, that's just a really tough one dude. A part of me wants to go back on. I mean, a weaker compound like a SARM over a longer period would give me the gains back to the exact physique I had previously, particularly if I run it eating a calorie deposit (cutting), but I know now that I have hit my genetic max in terms of how much muscle I can hold at that body fat percentage.

Training naturally will never give me the same level of density I achieved on. It's not even really close. PM me if you want to see the before and after pics (don't really want to post on the public forum), but it gives you a very good idea of what genetic max looks like at a few lbs (if any really) shy of contest shape (idea for like a Muscle Model, but definitely bigger than Men's Physique in my opinion), 187lbs at under 5'10. Just a real marketable look, really.

It was a very good crack to really push my genetic limits, but I could not keep that condition at all. Just too much density and size, and too little fat on me. If I wanted to compete now for instance I'd probably have to go back down to around 177 or so (if natty), and lacking fullness. I had hoped I could get one day to a conditioned 185 and keep it, natural or not, but I don't think I will ever even begin to grow naturally anymore. My muscles feel "stuck" these days tbh. Feels very much like I'm at my limit for carrying mass.

It's just weird because just a few lbs of lean, dry muscle whilst reducing fat seemed to make a world of difference to how I looked. Things just jumped out more.. which is probably down to the density and dryness of the muscle (H-Drol is based on Turinabol, a dry compound).

If I decide to cruise, then I'll have pretty much sentenced myself to taking anabolics a lot more serious... and given I'm not even sure it's worth it for just a hope that I might make a few bucks in fitness in exchange for my health/social standing (friends already heavily suspect me of gear/know something is going on because I already looked very respectable before hand). My alternative to this is to run clen to shred to 177 to see if I can preserve my muscle mass and see what I look like and if I have a chance of looking at least something like I used to (least respectable enough that I don't sit there wishing I was still in my old shape). My abs don't look anywhere as good now as they did on cycle, which messes with my head. Quads and back mass suffered too, and I lost vascularity through my chest indicating diminished size replaced with body fat (intramuscular mostly, which sucks). It's sheer size lost. And very little vascularity.

In terms of training, I'm still going very hard. I'm doing 7 days a week and keeping the cals moderate-high with the hope that I can induce further improvements somehow without gear, which is probably wishful thinking, but I'm trying. I'm running anabeta elite and DAA just to get natty levels fired up as much as possible and to promote the most anabolic environment i can natty). Really just to keep me preoccupied while I decide if I want to stay natty and just settle for a lesser physique knowing my potential (very, very hard thing to ask of a bodybuilder), or cycle again and just have to cruise.

 

[Superduperbroncos]

In terms of training, I'm still going very hard. I'm doing 7 days a week and keeping the cals moderate-high with the hope that I can induce further improvements somehow without gear, which is probably wishful thinking, but I'm trying. I'm running anabeta elite and DAA just to get natty levels fired up as much as possible and to promote the most anabolic environment i can natty). Really just to keep me preoccupied while I decide if I want to stay natty and just settle for a lesser physique knowing my potential (very, very hard thing to ask of a bodybuilder), or cycle again and just have to cruise.

Ok, this is were you might have went wrong, and are continuing to go wrong imo. Lets start from the top.

Training, The same training intensity you used pre cycle, and on cycle, your carried that over into post cycle. And even past post cycle, you still trained 'hard' 7 days a week. This might be were you went wrong. During pct your hormones are completely out of wack and the entire goal of a PCT is recovery. During post cycle you should ONLY be doing MAINTENANCE work, just enough needed to hold on to the muscle you have gained. Your bodies ability to recover from exercise will be dramatically reduced until your natty test really starts to 'kick back in'. It sounds like you slowly burnt off all your muscle due to training way too much/hard. Even as a natural lifter this is possible. Regardless your situation is just as interesting as it is strange.

 

[technology_1]

Ok, this is were you might have went wrong, and are continuing to go wrong imo. Lets start from the top.

Training, The same training intensity you used pre cycle, and on cycle, your carried that over into post cycle. And even past post cycle, you still trained 'hard' 7 days a week. This might be were you went wrong. During pct your hormones are completely out of wack and the entire goal of a PCT is recovery. During post cycle you should ONLY be doing MAINTENANCE work, just enough needed to hold on to the muscle you have gained. Your bodies ability to recover from exercise will be dramatically reduced until your natty test really starts to 'kick back in'. It sounds like you slowly burnt off all your muscle due to overtraining in pct.

And I am no doctor, but your levels of FSH AND LH seem relatively low and while your test levels are 'in range' it doesnt mean some damage hasnt been done already. Your test could have been double precycle to what you have now.

It's a good thing you mentioned this because I was feeling burned out and have taken the last few days off the gym (planning to take the week off). What can I do to raise LH and FSH again?

 

[Superduperbroncos]

This was your first cycle, and no one has a perfect first cycle. There is always something you will regret or wish you did differently. So dont give up just yet. There are much better drugs out there than hdrol and there are still gains to be made [what you have lost]. You seem to have the right idea, starting off with clen and cutting down that extra bf is a great start to see how much lean mass you actually lost, and what it will take to gain it back. Short oral cycles, your hdrol cycle, are the hardest cycles to try to 'keep your gains'.

This is what I would recommend.

Weeks 1-6 Cutting
Clen Weeks 1-2 ON, 3-4 OFF, 4-6 ON
GW-501615 20mg ED 1 hour Preworkout
S-4 Weeks 2-6 75mg split 3x daily. 25mg in the morning, 25mg mid day, 25mg preworkout. Weekends OFF

For the first 6 weeks, this should be done in a deficit, [obviously] and your diet will be more important than ever at this point as it will lay the path for your long term results[preserving what muscle you have left is key]. But dieting for 6 weeks using this protocol you should have no problems getting lean again in this time frame [maybe even sooner]. After you reach an optimal level of bodyfat we will be in a better position to gain muscle while staying lean. I would try this

Recomp Weeks 7-15
Ostarine 25mg ED taken in the morning
Creatine ED, you will see much greater benefits from creatine while stacked with osta.
GW-501615 20mg ED 1 hour Preworkout

For your recomp you will need to be in a caloric surplus in order to actually build some muscle, but you need to be hitting the cardio hard as well to prevent fat gain. 8 weeks isnt a very long time to see significant results from a recomp, so you have two options from here. You can continue to run the osta for as long as you see good results, but eventually you will stop and need to pct. Sarms are very easy to recover from and dont suppress you as nearly as hard as any AAS. While your nolva pct was definitely lacking for your hdrol cycle, running that exact same pct for this cycle would be more than enough to not only fully recover but actually KEEP your muscle, as the gains from sarms are much easier to keep than a pro-steriod or hormone.

OR

You can just make this a bridge into your next cycle, I wouldnt recommend anymore orals only though just due to your past experience with them was not optimal. If you do plan to run another AAS or prohormone make sure you have your entire cycle, pct, and next bridge preplanned before you start the cycle.

The practice of 'cycling' is very similar to blast and cruise, in the since that you are never really 'off' its just a never ending cycle of hormones and drugs followed by a pct, which is really just a hormonal 'boost' that is usually followed by a crash [no matter how small or great] which is why you need a bridge that doesnt suppress your natural testosterone but help you maintain your strength until your body has reached a level of homeostasis and you can maintain your strength naturally, or jump on another cycle afterwords.

 

[technology_1]

Ok, this is were you might have went wrong, and are continuing to go wrong imo. Lets start from the top.

Training, The same training intensity you used pre cycle, and on cycle, your carried that over into post cycle. And even past post cycle, you still trained 'hard' 7 days a week. This might be were you went wrong. During pct your hormones are completely out of wack and the entire goal of a PCT is recovery. During post cycle you should ONLY be doing MAINTENANCE work, just enough needed to hold on to the muscle you have gained. Your bodies ability to recover from exercise will be dramatically reduced until your natty test really starts to 'kick back in'. It sounds like you slowly burnt off all your muscle due to training way too much/hard. Even as a natural lifter this is possible. Regardless your situation is just as interesting as it is strange.

I agree. I had all the confidence in the world that I'd maintained my gains. I mean I can understand that gains from any form of hormone can take months to come off, but what I don't get is why I crashed as well after I felt recovered months prior and had run my PCT... A delayed crash, perhaps.. It also adds another layer to the anatomy of a crash that I wasn't aware of, i.e. Regardless of when you lose your gains, it can/wil come with the known sides related to crashing like the ridiculous lethargy, loss of sex drive, etc.

At any rate that was probably the closest i will come to adding maintainable muscle from AAS.

Sorry super duper I am on the mobile app which is a bit difficult to work with, I just read your second cycle recommendation, I'll give it a proper read when I get home from work

 

[technology_1]

This was your first cycle, and no one has a perfect first cycle. There is always something you will regret or wish you did differently. So dont give up just yet. There are much better drugs out there than hdrol and there are still gains to be made [what you have lost]. You seem to have the right idea, starting off with clen and cutting down that extra bf is a great start to see how much lean mass you actually lost, and what it will take to gain it back. Short oral cycles, your hdrol cycle, are the hardest cycles to try to 'keep your gains'.

This is what I would recommend.

Weeks 1-6 Cutting
Clen Weeks 1-2 ON, 3-4 OFF, 4-6 ON
GW-501615 20mg ED 1 hour Preworkout
S-4 Weeks 2-6 75mg split 3x daily. 25mg in the morning, 25mg mid day, 25mg preworkout. Weekends OFF

For the first 6 weeks, this should be done in a deficit, [obviously] and your diet will be more important than ever at this point as it will lay the path for your long term results[preserving what muscle you have left is key]. But dieting for 6 weeks using this protocol you should have no problems getting lean again in this time frame [maybe even sooner]. After you reach an optimal level of bodyfat we will be in a better position to gain muscle while staying lean. I would try this

Recomp Weeks 7-15
Ostarine 25mg ED taken in the morning
Creatine ED, you will see much greater benefits from creatine while stacked with osta.
GW-501615 20mg ED 1 hour Preworkout

For your recomp you will need to be in a caloric surplus in order to actually build some muscle, but you need to be hitting the cardio hard as well to prevent fat gain. 8 weeks isnt a very long time to see significant results from a recomp, so you have two options from here. You can continue to run the osta for as long as you see good results, but eventually you will stop and need to pct. Sarms are very easy to recover from and dont suppress you as nearly as hard as any AAS. While your nolva pct was definitely lacking for your hdrol cycle, running that exact same pct for this cycle would be more than enough to not only fully recover but actually KEEP your muscle, as the gains from sarms are much easier to keep than a pro-steriod or hormone.

OR

You can just make this a bridge into your next cycle, I wouldnt recommend anymore orals only though just due to your past experience with them was not optimal. If you do plan to run another AAS or prohormone make sure you have your entire cycle, pct, and next bridge preplanned before you start the cycle.

The practice of 'cycling' is very similar to blast and cruise, in the since that you are never really 'off' its just a never ending cycle of hormones and drugs followed by a pct, which is really just a hormonal 'boost' that is usually followed by a crash [no matter how small or great] which is why you need a bridge that doesnt suppress your natural testosterone but help you maintain your strength until your body has reached a level of homeostasis and you can maintain your strength naturally, or jump on another cycle afterwords.

Great post dude, thanks. This is the sort of detail noobs should be presented, but perhaps in a more digestible/understandable format I think.. Especially those who are looking to push their genetic potential in the safest, "healthiest" and most sustainable fashion possible...