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Insulin spiking 101
- Thread starter emmab
- Start date
Both the types of foods and the quantities in which they are consumed make a difference on the GI ratings. The GI list is based upon a 100gm single carb item. Eating less than the 100gram serving size, which is typical for most, will illicit a higher GI rating. The higher the quantity, the slower the GI. I have no idea of where you could look other than the GI list to find a GI rating of a food in certain quantities.
MR. BMJ
MR. BMJ
chillin408
New member
u know when someone refers to low GI carbs, is their really such a thing as a low GI carb other than fructose?? is it really the meal that is low GI?? do u have to count the whole meal ?
for example if u eat some low GI carbs for example oatmeal,then if u add a tablespoon of flax oil,the GI will be lower ,right??
another question, what if u just eat 30 grams of dextrose, and u take it with a tablespoon of flax oil,would it be the same GI as oatmeal by itself with no flax oil ,approxmatly?
fiber and fat are the things that slow down digestion from what ive read in old posts. Are they equal,how exactly does it work, i mean is 1 gram of fiber equivlent to 1 gram of fat in slowing digestion? gram for gram which is better at lowering GI?
for example if u eat some low GI carbs for example oatmeal,then if u add a tablespoon of flax oil,the GI will be lower ,right??
another question, what if u just eat 30 grams of dextrose, and u take it with a tablespoon of flax oil,would it be the same GI as oatmeal by itself with no flax oil ,approxmatly?
fiber and fat are the things that slow down digestion from what ive read in old posts. Are they equal,how exactly does it work, i mean is 1 gram of fiber equivlent to 1 gram of fat in slowing digestion? gram for gram which is better at lowering GI?
****CORRECTION HERE*****
I mentioned that the GI list was based on a 100 gram serving, I was wrong, it is 50 grams. Sorry.
CHILLIN, You are right on all your assumptions, good job! You can alter a high GI food with the addition of low GI foods.
Besides Fructose, Lactose is also a slow digesting carb.
Fat VS Fiber? I don't know that one.
***Here are some other factors that effect the GI ratings:
1.) Grain Processing: The less processed a grain is, the smaller the surface area, and the lower the GI.
2.) Gelatinization: This is when water and heat are applied to and cause starch molecules within grains to swell up, which increases surface area, which increases the GI.
3.) Starch composition: The 2 basic structures are Amylose and Amylopectins. Simply, amylose will have a lower GI and Amylopectin will have a higher GI. I will go into more detail if needed.
4.) Fiber: 2 types:
a) Soluble fiber gels up in the stomach and slows gastric emptying.
b) "Insoluble fiber is only worthwhile when it acts as a barrier in an intact grain, so amylase cannot easily reach the starch. Adding insoluble fiber to ground grains...has no impact on the GI index. Commercial white and whole-wheat breads have similar GI's because the grinding of the grain has destroyed the barrier of insoluble fiber."
5.) Sugar composition: Mono, di, trisaccharides, etc...
6.) Protein: Types/composition (liquid or whole).
7.) Acid Content: High acid contents slow down gastric emptying (Pineapple).
8.) Anti-Nutrients: Nutrients that interfere with amylase by binding with the minerals necessary for enzyme function, primarily calcium and potassium. EX.) Oxalic acid, tannins, phytic acid, and lectin.
***One note here, compression, high heat, burst steaming, drying processes, cooking conditions (microwaving, boiling, baking), etc...effect the GI ratings.
MR. BMJ
[This message has been edited by MR. BMJ (edited April 10, 2001).]
GenetiKing
New member
MR.BMJ...
Good shit. Maybe you can explain something to me. I read somewhere that the best way to spike insulin levels after training was with a meal that was (sorry, I can't remember the exact ratios here) around 70% carbs, 30% protein. But from what I understand, if a certain food is high on the GI index by itself, wouldn't it be best to consume that particular food alone to get the highest post-training insulin spike possible? I mean, wouldn't the addition of the protein to the immediate post-training meal slow digestion and lower the overall insulin effect in the body?
Just asking, you seem to know your stuff pretty well.
------------------
Backstage, '75 Olympia:
Serge Nubret, "I look like I can take you."
Arnold, "Keep looking."
Good shit. Maybe you can explain something to me. I read somewhere that the best way to spike insulin levels after training was with a meal that was (sorry, I can't remember the exact ratios here) around 70% carbs, 30% protein. But from what I understand, if a certain food is high on the GI index by itself, wouldn't it be best to consume that particular food alone to get the highest post-training insulin spike possible? I mean, wouldn't the addition of the protein to the immediate post-training meal slow digestion and lower the overall insulin effect in the body?
Just asking, you seem to know your stuff pretty well.
------------------
Backstage, '75 Olympia:
Serge Nubret, "I look like I can take you."
Arnold, "Keep looking."
This is a good post so far...
I've heard many times over that post workout it is best to consume roughly 100g of dextrose and 30-50g of whey protein. That the combination of fast absorbing carbs and protein will increase the insulin spike more than carbs alone. Then 1-2 hours later a solid food meal should be consumed containing at least 30 grams of protien and 50 grams of carbs.
I've heard many times over that post workout it is best to consume roughly 100g of dextrose and 30-50g of whey protein. That the combination of fast absorbing carbs and protein will increase the insulin spike more than carbs alone. Then 1-2 hours later a solid food meal should be consumed containing at least 30 grams of protien and 50 grams of carbs.
chillin408
New member
i use to buy metrx MRP's, they are thick and taste good and i feel full. But they only have i think 2 grams of fat and probably 1 gram or less of fiber per package. But they still seem to keep me full for along time. Do you know why this is?
If i were to have the same amount amount of carbs using grape juice as carb source,whey protein ,and 2 grams of fat from flax oil,i bet u i would not feel full and i would feel weak and probably eat again an hour later?
can u please expand on #5. I thought it doesn't matter if their mono di,tri,etc sacchides. Because glucose and glucose polymers have the same GI,and this goes back the assumption that if a carb is complex(Polymers) that it takes longer to digest. But maybe it does matter in other cases and im forgeting and/or missing something?? if so please correct it
since you offered to go into more detial about #3 "I will go into more detail if needed.", can u please do so,im interested
oh yea just wanted to ask,i hear caseinates are slow digesting,do u know why this is? also could this be one of the reasons for the mrp making me feel full? metrx uses caseinates as 1 of 4 or 5 different protein sources( i forgot the exact about but around 4 or 5). Are caseinates that potent as digestive slower,or is it just overhyped to sell more?
last thing,about # 5,i wanted to ask about dextrose versus maltodextrins. do u know why maltodextrins are usually part of post workout formulas instead of dextrose?
ok is this how it works?.... once u take eat glucose after your workout to replish glycogen, it goes into your muscle and stores as glucose polymers in your muscles,i was i wondering,if u eat maltodextrins ,does it go straight into your muscles as glycogen or does it get broken down into monmer units first then store,so then dextrose would be better? or maybe im missing some steps or something,can someone clear this up
also their was a thread about 3 types of sugars,but i cant find it,it dissepeared it was a great thread. someone posted something along the lines that some glucose polymers depending on length may not be broken down into monmer units i was wondering if anyone remembered the rest of it?im sure im forgeting what that guy said because i cant access that thread anymore,so if thats the case are they just tookin in your muscles or what happens? ok i know this isnt really significant but just wondering
[This message has been edited by chillin408 (edited April 10, 2001).]
If i were to have the same amount amount of carbs using grape juice as carb source,whey protein ,and 2 grams of fat from flax oil,i bet u i would not feel full and i would feel weak and probably eat again an hour later?
can u please expand on #5. I thought it doesn't matter if their mono di,tri,etc sacchides. Because glucose and glucose polymers have the same GI,and this goes back the assumption that if a carb is complex(Polymers) that it takes longer to digest. But maybe it does matter in other cases and im forgeting and/or missing something?? if so please correct it
since you offered to go into more detial about #3 "I will go into more detail if needed.", can u please do so,im interested
oh yea just wanted to ask,i hear caseinates are slow digesting,do u know why this is? also could this be one of the reasons for the mrp making me feel full? metrx uses caseinates as 1 of 4 or 5 different protein sources( i forgot the exact about but around 4 or 5). Are caseinates that potent as digestive slower,or is it just overhyped to sell more?
last thing,about # 5,i wanted to ask about dextrose versus maltodextrins. do u know why maltodextrins are usually part of post workout formulas instead of dextrose?
ok is this how it works?.... once u take eat glucose after your workout to replish glycogen, it goes into your muscle and stores as glucose polymers in your muscles,i was i wondering,if u eat maltodextrins ,does it go straight into your muscles as glycogen or does it get broken down into monmer units first then store,so then dextrose would be better? or maybe im missing some steps or something,can someone clear this up
also their was a thread about 3 types of sugars,but i cant find it,it dissepeared it was a great thread. someone posted something along the lines that some glucose polymers depending on length may not be broken down into monmer units i was wondering if anyone remembered the rest of it?im sure im forgeting what that guy said because i cant access that thread anymore,so if thats the case are they just tookin in your muscles or what happens? ok i know this isnt really significant but just wondering
[This message has been edited by chillin408 (edited April 10, 2001).]
Genetiking, I usually just drink my carb source (Ultra Fuel) as soon as I get in my car after my workout. This allows time for the muscles to get glycogenated without any interference from the protein. The problem that we have is that there is no kind of GI rating for proteins, therefore, all we know is that whey is a fast-digesting protein. I doubt whey really has that much of a negative effect to slowing down the absorption of carbs after a workout, but just in case it does, that is what I do. It is usually consumed about a half an hour after I drink my Ultra Fuel (when I get home).
MR. BMJ
MR. BMJ
Chillin, i'll have to come back tomorrow unless someone answers your question before then because i'm about to pass out from this Vicodin high...hhehehe. I don't want to give some lame answer, or at least one thAt doesn't make sense, if you know what I mean. BTW, I couldn't find that damn article "3 types of sugars" in the freakin archives. Maybe Valdez has a link or a printout with the link on it because if I remember right, he was the one who posted the thread. A damn good thread that might be lost. It was on the supplements board. I think that was the thread we went over and explained maltodextrins and fructose. Take it easy man, i'm outty here. Maybe MS will be around later.
MR. BMJ
MR. BMJ
chillin408
New member
its all good,i know what u mean,the last part of that post when i was asking maltodextrins versus dextrose i was rushing too i was trying to hit the gym to do something real quick before they close,so some of the stuff i said could have been stupid and not made sense,anyway there is something wrong with the board recently, theirs been hella glitches/problems lately and many topics just dissipear,i think that was one of them,if someone has an old link for it it might still pop up though,i dont know,i remember looking for it a few weeks ago,and at that time it should have just been on page 2 or 3,and i couldnt find it,i even looked on the diet board just incase i was off,
this topic may have just dissepeared with no explanation but im positive that on other occasions someone was responsible topic dissipearence's
this topic may have just dissepeared with no explanation but im positive that on other occasions someone was responsible topic dissipearence's
chillin408
New member
grape juice is higher in glucose, im not sure exactly what the percentages are, i am looking for a site that has this info i found this one site that may but u have to downlaod the info,and my dsl isnt working so im not even gonna try right now
Mr BMJ- i thought the carbs meant to be taken WITH protein; taking the protein with the carbs not only refills the glycogen, but the following insulin spike is the ideal environment for maximum nutrient absorption. Everything I've read has stated to do both at more or less the same time (cabrs and protein)
#3.) Amylose and Amylopectin:
Most starches are mixtures of these 2 types and contain approximately 17-28% amylose and 72-83% amylopectin. This can also change with cooking conditions.
AMYLOSE--is an unbranched chain of approximately 600 or more glucose units. Try to think of it as a straight chain of glucose molecules that look like this:
0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
Heres how duchaine describes this molecule:
"Amylose is broken down slowly from the ends, like it is being eaten by Pac Man in slow motion." Amylose is also called "resistant starch" because only about 40% can be digested. The higher the amylose content, the lower the GI ratings. It is not easily fermented. The exact size of the molecule will vary depending on the plant source and its maturity. Amylose is found in high concentrations in rice (~28%) and wheat flour. In these cereal grains, the amylose chain is shorter than that found in the root starches.
Amylopectin--The more complex starch, has a structure that looks like this (hopefully this comes out right ?):
0
1
0
1
0
1
0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
1
0
1
0
1
0
Every 4 or so glucose molecules, the chain branches. "In this structure, our Pac Man-like enzymes can chomp away at the end of every glucose chain. There is more exposed area for the enzymes to attack, so amylopectins generally are digested faster and therefore have higher GI ratings. There is one instance when this isn't true. Some new maltodextrins (usually fragmented amylose) are reduced amylopectins. A straight chain maltodextrin has a high GI, but a branched-chain maltodextrin has a lowewr GI, which is why I like to use them in diet meal-replacement powders. (This might answer some of your #5 question too, and it may explain why Met-Rx makes you fuller).
Amylopectins are highly branched-chain polysaccharides varying from approximately 600-1500 glucose units. Foods containing primarily amylopectin starch include potatos, tapioca, and waxy cornstarch.
The fiber in brown rice is no great impediment to digestion, so picking a brown rice is not as important as identifying the amylose to amylopectin ratio. Long-grain rice has more amylose than other varieties.
Let me see what I got so far, and I will answer the other questions.
MR. BMJ
All right, my amylopectin stucture didn't turn out, so i'll describe it. The linear portions of the molecule are linked together with alpha1,4 units, but at every 20-25 glucose units, the molecules are joined by alpha1,6 linkages. Just think of it as a plus sign (+).
MR. BMJ
[This message has been edited by MR. BMJ (edited April 11, 2001).]
Sugar composition: Mono/di/poly's/oligo's/etc....
All of these sugars will eventually get broken down as glucose in the body and be stored as glycogen in the liver, muscles anf fat, etc.... There are 3 types of monosaccharides, they are glucose, fructose, and galactose (you could count the pentose carbon molecules like ribose, arabinose, and xylose, if you wanted, but i'll stick to the main 3 for now). Fructose and galactose are slow digesting mono's because they undergo different absorption pathways,etc. Now, the Disaccharides like sucrose (1 glucose molecule and 1 fructose molecule), Maltose (double glucose molecule), and Lactose (1 galactose molecule and 1 glucose molecule) will have a slower GI (except for maltose, due to surface area). The reason for a disaccharide like sucrose (table sugar) having a lower GI rating than glucose is because it is also half Fructose, which as mentioned previously, has a low GI rating. This trend will vary depending on the the quantity and types of bonds that are formed. As mentioned earlier, a starch molecule of amylose will have up to 600 and more glucose units. Maltodextrins, depending on whether they are branched or straight molecule will have varying GI ratings.
This was a real basic explanation, but hopefullyt it helps some.
MR. BMJ
[This message has been edited by MR. BMJ (edited April 11, 2001).]
All of these sugars will eventually get broken down as glucose in the body and be stored as glycogen in the liver, muscles anf fat, etc.... There are 3 types of monosaccharides, they are glucose, fructose, and galactose (you could count the pentose carbon molecules like ribose, arabinose, and xylose, if you wanted, but i'll stick to the main 3 for now). Fructose and galactose are slow digesting mono's because they undergo different absorption pathways,etc. Now, the Disaccharides like sucrose (1 glucose molecule and 1 fructose molecule), Maltose (double glucose molecule), and Lactose (1 galactose molecule and 1 glucose molecule) will have a slower GI (except for maltose, due to surface area). The reason for a disaccharide like sucrose (table sugar) having a lower GI rating than glucose is because it is also half Fructose, which as mentioned previously, has a low GI rating. This trend will vary depending on the the quantity and types of bonds that are formed. As mentioned earlier, a starch molecule of amylose will have up to 600 and more glucose units. Maltodextrins, depending on whether they are branched or straight molecule will have varying GI ratings.
This was a real basic explanation, but hopefullyt it helps some.
MR. BMJ
[This message has been edited by MR. BMJ (edited April 11, 2001).]
***DEXTROSE, is just another name for glucose. They are the same.
***Hopefully I explained it well enough to point out that some "complex" carbs will not always be slow digesting carbs (maltodextrins, etc). This is why most people do not really express a carb digestion rates by these terms anymore. They refer to their GI's. Some complex carbs in structure will actually have high/quick GI's.
Caseinate? I am not too familiar with the in gredients in Met-Rx, and there are too many things to factor in that will affect the GI/digestion rate of it being absorbed by the body. BUT, generally, caseinates are slow digesting proteins because they curdle into a solid in the stomach and need further digestion to liquefy before it enters the small intestine.
MR. BMJ
***Hopefully I explained it well enough to point out that some "complex" carbs will not always be slow digesting carbs (maltodextrins, etc). This is why most people do not really express a carb digestion rates by these terms anymore. They refer to their GI's. Some complex carbs in structure will actually have high/quick GI's.
Caseinate? I am not too familiar with the in gredients in Met-Rx, and there are too many things to factor in that will affect the GI/digestion rate of it being absorbed by the body. BUT, generally, caseinates are slow digesting proteins because they curdle into a solid in the stomach and need further digestion to liquefy before it enters the small intestine.
MR. BMJ
About the grape juice, here is a link that may answer your question on it:
http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/Archives/Forum4/03-2001/000818.html
MR. BMJ
Belial--Like I said, you may be able to get away with having whey proetein with your carb drink after a workout without it ruining the GI rating. But, whey will be the only protein you could use that may or may not effect the purpose of the post-workout drink. Remember, the main thing you are trying to replenish after a workout is glycogen levels. Taking a whole protein, casein, etc...will ruin the purpose of a high GI carb and its benefits on shuttling nutrients into the muscles and body while the hormonal conditions are beneficial. Whey is a question mark since it is rather insulinegenic (and i'm not talking about it being gluconeogenic). I would rather get the benefits of glycogen compensation before adding in a protein which might effect the absorption rate. But I do drink my whey before an hour (actually more like 30 minutes like I mentioned).
MR. BMJ
http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/Archives/Forum4/03-2001/000818.html
MR. BMJ
Belial--Like I said, you may be able to get away with having whey proetein with your carb drink after a workout without it ruining the GI rating. But, whey will be the only protein you could use that may or may not effect the purpose of the post-workout drink. Remember, the main thing you are trying to replenish after a workout is glycogen levels. Taking a whole protein, casein, etc...will ruin the purpose of a high GI carb and its benefits on shuttling nutrients into the muscles and body while the hormonal conditions are beneficial. Whey is a question mark since it is rather insulinegenic (and i'm not talking about it being gluconeogenic). I would rather get the benefits of glycogen compensation before adding in a protein which might effect the absorption rate. But I do drink my whey before an hour (actually more like 30 minutes like I mentioned).
MR. BMJ
chillin408
New member
great info, do you know of a site which gives accurate GI ratings
about grape juice, how much percent of grape juice is glucose, the GI index on this site lists grape somewhere around 60-70,so my instinct has been its somewhere near 50/50,but im probably thinking wrong,do u know?
about grape juice, how much percent of grape juice is glucose, the GI index on this site lists grape somewhere around 60-70,so my instinct has been its somewhere near 50/50,but im probably thinking wrong,do u know?
Here's the GI site that I like:
http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm
I don't know what the exact GI rating of grape juice is, but that 60-70 range might be pretty accurate considering that High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) is averaged at a GI rating of 62(glucose index), and it is the major sugar/sweetener in grape juice.
MR. BMJ
http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm
I don't know what the exact GI rating of grape juice is, but that 60-70 range might be pretty accurate considering that High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) is averaged at a GI rating of 62(glucose index), and it is the major sugar/sweetener in grape juice.
MR. BMJ
i'm confused, maltodextrin has a higher gi than dextrose, but i have always heard that dextrose causes a bigger insulin spike, how is that possible? if i were to use 75 grams of dextrose in one post workout formula and 75 grams of maltodextrin in another, wich would cause a greater insulin spike? or should i combine the two?
gUiLe
New member
MR.BMJ, So, in your opinion, what is the BEST
post-workout strategy? Are you saying you take in no more then say 50 grams of high GI
carbs post workout? What do you recommend for
a post workout drink? And how long after your
immediate Ultra fuel, do you eat your post
workout meal? 30 min?
post-workout strategy? Are you saying you take in no more then say 50 grams of high GI
carbs post workout? What do you recommend for
a post workout drink? And how long after your
immediate Ultra fuel, do you eat your post
workout meal? 30 min?
I drink my ultra fuel right after my workout, then when I get home, I drink my protein mixed with water. My protein intake is around 105 grams. As for carbs, I usually take my bodyweight and multiply it by 1.5. This gives me the gram amount. So a 200lb person would take in 300grams. I then subtract this amount from my daily caloric intake (bulking).
As to which sugars/foods are best for post-workout, I get good results from both sucrose and glucose so I usually just have either an Ultra Fuel or grape juice. I have never really used maltodextrin.
Dan Duchaine was asked this very same question, and here is his response: (kind of long)
"The answer might surprise you. Logically, you would think that since you want to drive as much glucose as possible into the muscle cells, you should pick foods that cause the highest insulin response. A few years ago (this question/answer was written in 1997) scientists measured the rate glycogen is deposited in muscle in athletes (runners) after a workout. They tried glucose, sucrose, and fructose. Insulin secretion is correlated with a particular food's glycemic index. Years ago glucose had the top score of 100. Today, the new glycemic index has readjusted glucose to a rating of 137 and white bread to the rating of 100.
I described all of this because, in the above study, slightly more glycogen was deposited with a sucrose beverage (GI of 92) than with the higher insulinogenic glucose. I have mentioned in my book BODYOPUS that little insulin is needed to transport blood glucose into muscle to stimulate the subsequent enzyme-driven reactions that convert glucose to glycogen. Why didn't glucose outperform sucrose as expected? It's possible that with glucose, the higher amount of insulin in the bloodstream is diverted to other cells (e.g. fat cells), in addition to muscle cells. With sucrose, there may be just the right amount of insulin to optimally deposit muscle glycogen without "spilling over" into the fat cells.
The simple answer to your query of finding the best carb source would be "sucrose." But maybe other carbohydrate sources within the same glycemic ballpark as sucrose would work as well. Here are some food choices in the glycemic range between 90 and 95:
*Boxed macaroni and cheese (92)
*Canned black bean soup (92)
*Steamed potatoes (93)
*Instant premium white rice (94)
*Canned Pineapple (94)
*Canned pea soup (94)
*Angel food cake (95)
As you can see, you are not locked into pricey sports-carb drinks. Many of your choices are complex carbohydrates, and some of the selections are surprising. Who would have thought that the bodybuilding staples potatoes and rice would be about as good as angel food cake. Actually, since angel food cake has nice amounts of egg whites, the cake has a better protein content than rice or potatoes.
Much of the early research on glycogen replenishment rates was done by scientists who assumed liquid simple sugars would be the best choice because of their high glycemic ratings. I wonder if scientists would use macaroni and cheese since it has the same glycemic index as sucrose? What's strange is macaroni, without the cheese has a glycemic index of around 65!"
Whew.....this article like I mentioned at the beginning was printed in 1997, so it is already 6 years old. Also, there have been a lot of studies since then that show both intervening conclusions of which is better out of sucrose and glucose. This Duchaine answer will help people that cannot access the common sports drinks that are available to others. Personally, I still use glucose drinks, but I have gotten great results using both. I just love the taste of them Ultra Fuel drinks....they're so damn good! I have used macaroni and cheese as a post workout meal and have gotten great results too, plus it has adequate amounts of protein already included within it. Dan mentioned the angel food cake too.
MR. BMJ
As to which sugars/foods are best for post-workout, I get good results from both sucrose and glucose so I usually just have either an Ultra Fuel or grape juice. I have never really used maltodextrin.
Dan Duchaine was asked this very same question, and here is his response: (kind of long)
"The answer might surprise you. Logically, you would think that since you want to drive as much glucose as possible into the muscle cells, you should pick foods that cause the highest insulin response. A few years ago (this question/answer was written in 1997) scientists measured the rate glycogen is deposited in muscle in athletes (runners) after a workout. They tried glucose, sucrose, and fructose. Insulin secretion is correlated with a particular food's glycemic index. Years ago glucose had the top score of 100. Today, the new glycemic index has readjusted glucose to a rating of 137 and white bread to the rating of 100.
I described all of this because, in the above study, slightly more glycogen was deposited with a sucrose beverage (GI of 92) than with the higher insulinogenic glucose. I have mentioned in my book BODYOPUS that little insulin is needed to transport blood glucose into muscle to stimulate the subsequent enzyme-driven reactions that convert glucose to glycogen. Why didn't glucose outperform sucrose as expected? It's possible that with glucose, the higher amount of insulin in the bloodstream is diverted to other cells (e.g. fat cells), in addition to muscle cells. With sucrose, there may be just the right amount of insulin to optimally deposit muscle glycogen without "spilling over" into the fat cells.
The simple answer to your query of finding the best carb source would be "sucrose." But maybe other carbohydrate sources within the same glycemic ballpark as sucrose would work as well. Here are some food choices in the glycemic range between 90 and 95:
*Boxed macaroni and cheese (92)
*Canned black bean soup (92)
*Steamed potatoes (93)
*Instant premium white rice (94)
*Canned Pineapple (94)
*Canned pea soup (94)
*Angel food cake (95)
As you can see, you are not locked into pricey sports-carb drinks. Many of your choices are complex carbohydrates, and some of the selections are surprising. Who would have thought that the bodybuilding staples potatoes and rice would be about as good as angel food cake. Actually, since angel food cake has nice amounts of egg whites, the cake has a better protein content than rice or potatoes.
Much of the early research on glycogen replenishment rates was done by scientists who assumed liquid simple sugars would be the best choice because of their high glycemic ratings. I wonder if scientists would use macaroni and cheese since it has the same glycemic index as sucrose? What's strange is macaroni, without the cheese has a glycemic index of around 65!"
Whew.....this article like I mentioned at the beginning was printed in 1997, so it is already 6 years old. Also, there have been a lot of studies since then that show both intervening conclusions of which is better out of sucrose and glucose. This Duchaine answer will help people that cannot access the common sports drinks that are available to others. Personally, I still use glucose drinks, but I have gotten great results using both. I just love the taste of them Ultra Fuel drinks....they're so damn good! I have used macaroni and cheese as a post workout meal and have gotten great results too, plus it has adequate amounts of protein already included within it. Dan mentioned the angel food cake too.
MR. BMJ
Wooops....need to make a correction here, I don't know what I was thinking. My post workout carb intake is 1.5 X MY BODYWEIGHT IN KG. Therefore, a 200lb person would weigh 91kg. 91kg X 1.5 = 136.5 grams (546 calories). My protein intake for my post workout meal is usually 30-50% of my protein intake for the day. I try to get in around 1.5-2.0 grams of protein/lb of bodyweight for the day (it varies on my diet).
MR. BMJ
MR. BMJ
gUiLe
New member
Mr.BMJ, I just couldn't get one thing out
of my head last night, remembering this post.
A box of macaroni & cheese as a postworkout
high gi meal? I LOVE this stuff, but NEVER
eat it (and I mean NEVER)! Out of curiosity
last night, I looked at the back of the box.
Bro, the box (Kraft Deluxe, my kid eats it) is like 1000 calories!! With 150 grams of
carbs, 45 grams of Protein and (get this)
39 grams of fat! With another 18 grams of
saturated fat! I know that Dan is/was considerd to be somewhat of an athority on
bodybuilding (roids and diet science) but
I can't see how eating a box of this after
a workout would be too good for you. Please,
convince me! I would LOVE to eat a box of that shit after a hard workout!!! Damn it's
good!!! Instead of some parmasean cheese, I
will just sprinkle some creatine on top
of my head last night, remembering this post.
A box of macaroni & cheese as a postworkout
high gi meal? I LOVE this stuff, but NEVER
eat it (and I mean NEVER)! Out of curiosity
last night, I looked at the back of the box.
Bro, the box (Kraft Deluxe, my kid eats it) is like 1000 calories!! With 150 grams of
carbs, 45 grams of Protein and (get this)
39 grams of fat! With another 18 grams of
saturated fat! I know that Dan is/was considerd to be somewhat of an athority on
bodybuilding (roids and diet science) but
I can't see how eating a box of this after
a workout would be too good for you. Please,
convince me! I would LOVE to eat a box of that shit after a hard workout!!! Damn it's
good!!! Instead of some parmasean cheese, I
will just sprinkle some creatine on top
The mac and cheese that I think was used was the boxed brand. Also, it was probably the mac and cheese that uses the powdered cheese that you have to stir in, not the thickened "squeeze out of the packet" cheese. I don't have any mac and cheese here so I can't get too precise. Also, I think that most brands have the fat calories from the 2% milk and butter added in with their nutritional calorie content on the box. All you have to do is use nonfat milk and no butter, which will bring down the fat total. This may have been what they did when testing for the GI ratings. But then again, I don't know. If I have time, i'll try to see if I can find out, unless somebody else here knows. Don't forget to look at the serving sizes too.
MR. BMJ
MR. BMJ
I've meant to do this for a while, but just got around to it, I wanted to give an example of how fructose is absorbed/digested. I will be quoting what Cockdezl has written in a previous post concerning the fructose that is contained in high fructose corn syrup (not all fructose, but it does have it in it) in a Mountain Dew Soda:
COCKDEZL WROTE:
"Fructose is converted in the liver to fructose-1-phosphate, which is then converted into glyceraldehyde and dihydroxyacetone phosphate. Both can be converted into glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate, which can either continue on with glycolysis and enter Krebs, or it can be converted into glycerol, which forms the backbone of triglycerides. Fructose will refill [liver] glycogen stores primarily, and then form saturated fats, since the liver can only process fructose at a certain rate."
Thought this would fit well with this thread.
MR. BMJ
COCKDEZL WROTE:
"Fructose is converted in the liver to fructose-1-phosphate, which is then converted into glyceraldehyde and dihydroxyacetone phosphate. Both can be converted into glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate, which can either continue on with glycolysis and enter Krebs, or it can be converted into glycerol, which forms the backbone of triglycerides. Fructose will refill [liver] glycogen stores primarily, and then form saturated fats, since the liver can only process fructose at a certain rate."
Thought this would fit well with this thread.
MR. BMJ
"..Is it the quantity or type of carbs after a workout that create an insulin spike?"
A little of both. Insulin can be spiked by sugar sources as small as a piece of chewing gum. Also, a very large protein meal can also spike insulin.
Insulin can also be secreted by merely looking at a appetizing food in front of you. i.e, you don't even have to eat it! Imagine being hungry and having a plate of your favorite food brought out right in front of your eyes. Slowly as the food gets closer and closer to you, your bodies hormones go to work. The body senses you're in for quite a meal, thus releases insulin in preperation for the feast.
I equate it to a dog salivating over a juicy steak dangled over it's nose.
A little of both. Insulin can be spiked by sugar sources as small as a piece of chewing gum. Also, a very large protein meal can also spike insulin.
Insulin can also be secreted by merely looking at a appetizing food in front of you. i.e, you don't even have to eat it! Imagine being hungry and having a plate of your favorite food brought out right in front of your eyes. Slowly as the food gets closer and closer to you, your bodies hormones go to work. The body senses you're in for quite a meal, thus releases insulin in preperation for the feast.
I equate it to a dog salivating over a juicy steak dangled over it's nose.
Fructose will certainly fill liver glycogen first and foremost, but whether excess fructose gets stored as 'fat' depends on the nutritional and hormonal status of the individual. There are three possible fates for glycerol generated from fructose. It can easily form triglycerides if there is adequate free fatty acids available in the liver. These triglycerides can easily be stored as fat if insulin levels are high or they are in excess to the current energy demands of the body. However, fructose by itself has a negligible impact on insulin levels. Glycerol can also be broken down into glucose. The fate of this glucose again depends on the energy demands and hormonal mileu. Epinephrine, Glucagon, Glucocorticoids, and growth hormone (to name a few) all favour the use of glucose and fatty acids rather than conversion and storage as fat. These hormones are stimulated by exercize and low blood glucose/low insulin levels. Glucose can be exported to the brain, muscles etc.... to be used directly as fuel in this case, or it can be turned into fatty acids which can react with other glycerol molecules to form triglycerides (again this is more likely if the fructose intake is in excess of energy demands). All in all, I don't think a modest intake of fruit is such a bad thing, but you don't want to overdo the high fructose stuff like mountain dew. On a calorie restricted diet some fructose will not hurt your fatloss efforts, and it helps with the conversion of T4 to T3 which can be a problem with long term low carb diets. It can accomplish this without raising insulin levels much, which is mostly a good thing unless you're intentionally trying to spike your insulin. I think that fruit/fructose is particularly suited to pre-workout meals since it is very unlikely to be stored as fat and can contribute a slow, even trickle of glucose to power high intensity muscle contraction. But that's just one person's opinion, and I know a lot of people are "anti fructose" folks.
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