Insulin has no efffect on protein synthesis PWO? prove it

[cobracock1979]

I posted a similar thread but its kinda gone in a good, but different direction.

Some people on EF are saying that a large insulin spike PWO will have no positive effect on protein synthesis.

Although no one has properly shown this yet, some studies have been posted which indicate the above could be a possibility.

Myself and others I know bas our whole bodybuilding regime around the idea that an insulin spike PWO is a huge aid to protein synthesis - some big changes would need to be made if this can be disproven.

Who agrees with this/ dissagrees? If so please post relevant studies evidence - I just want this thread to be about proving/ disproving this one point.
Thx in advance

 

[Chrisco915]

Post Workout Nutrition Research Studies:
While the conerstone of post-workout nutrition, traditionally has been a high carb drink immediately after a workout, many bodybuilders now advocate protein added also. A study (Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Apr;288(4):E645-53. Epub 2004 Nov 23) showed increased protein synthesis from amino acid plus carbs over the carb only. Another study (J Appl Physiol. 2004 Feb;96(2):674-8. Epub 2003 Oct 31) also found net positive body protein balance, was better with amino acids than carbs post workout. A study published in Diabetes. 1999 May;48(5):949-57, showed insulin had 3 times greater effect on amino acid transport. Researchers concluded that low amino acid availability, could limit the insulin’s effect on muscle protein synthesis after exercise.
There is some conflicting results, on the factor of protein added to carbs, on glycogen synthesis and recovery. I believe one reason why there is some conflicting results can be found in research study published in Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Jul;72(1):106-11. In the study glycogen synthesis was increased from either, protein + carbs drink or simply increasing the carb intake, compared to the normal carb drink group. The protein plus carbs and the higher carb group, had a higher insulin response than the normal carb group. In other words, adding protein and aminos to a post workout drink, just may be a expensive form of glucose(once it’s converted in the body). Therefore, the amount of carbs to cause a adequate insulin spike, is the main factor in glycogen synthesis and recovery. I should also add that, glycogen recovery is of little importance to bodybuilders. Our main focus, is post workout nutrition’s effect on protein synthesis and anabolic hormone production.
Carbohydrates are important post workout because of the hormonal changes they cause with insulin. IGF-1 releases when growth hormone and insulin are high. After a workout your insulin will be low, but your growth hormone levels should be high. By having a carb drink post workout, you will spike your insulin and cause the release of IGF-1 as a result. IGF-1 is extremely important in muscle growth. Another reason carbs are important is in controlling cortisol. Cortisol starts producing heavily near the end of a workout and we know cortisol production is blunted by spikes in insulin, which high carb intake causes.
A study in J Appl Physiol. 1998 Oct;85(4):1544-55 showed differences in hormonal changes for days, between the placebo and those supplementing carbs and protein for pre and post workout meals. In this study, growth hormone and testosterone were elevated immediately post workout. On day one, growth hormone increased more for the supplemented group. Cortisol production post workout was blunted by the supplement group. IGF-1 was also increased for the supplement group on days 2 and 3. This study shows that what you eat before and after workout, can effect your hormonal response for multiple days.
What should I eat for my post-workout meal?
You should have carbohydrates and protein as soon as possible post-workout, preferably in a liquid form. These days, many bodybuilders are now advocating low glycemic carbs after workout. These bodybuilders believe the massive high glycemic carbs post workout, leads long term to increased insulin tolerance(decreased insulin sensitivity). Maintaining insulin sensitivity long term, is crucial because it leads to more muscle gains, fat loss, and reduced risk for diabetes. Many bodybuilders have reported no reduced gains, resulting from a switch to low glycemic carbs postworkout.

 

[Chrisco915]

I know....I know....boring cut and paste.......but how else would I paraphrase so much info?

 

[Chrisco915]

Protein
In addition to replenishing the glycogen fuel burned during the workout, rebuilding the
muscle tissue that was torn down during the workout is also a crucial component to
muscle recovery.
Protein and carbohydrates work hand in hand post workout; both glycogen and protein
synthesis proceed faster when carbohydrates and protein are consumed together. In
addition to blunting cortisol and stopping gluconeogenesis, the carb induced insulin
response will help shuttle amino acids to the muscles. An influx of amino acid will
create a positive nitrogen balance and thus an anabolic environment for building and
retaining muscle.

Similar to carbs, the quicker the protein can be deliver to the muscles cells, the sooner the
recovery and repair process can begin. Whole food sources of protein should be avoided
immediately post workout because it takes too long for the body to break down these
high protein foods. Ideally one should incorporate a fast acting protein source such as
whey protein isolate or hydrolyzed whey into their PWO shake. Like whole foods,
slower digesting protein powders such as casein, egg, and soy would not be ideal post
workout.​

In addition to utilizing cross-flow microfiltered whey protein isolate, Core-PWO contains

additional BCAAs and glutamine. BCAAs (leucine, isoleucine, valine) are quickly
absorbed into circulation and immediately available to be used rebuild muscle proteins.
Leucine itself has been shown to have a greater stimulatory effect on protein synthesis
than any other amino acid. Adding BCAAs, in addition to whey isolate, only further​

increases the rate of skeletal muscle protein synthesis post workout.

 

[cobracock1979]

Thannks good stuff.

The benefits of a large insulin spike shown in the first study, appear here to be and increase in IGF-1 production and a curb in cortisol production - therefore this goes in favour of large insulin spiikes PWO being more anabolic than low levels of insulin?


I think Im gonna try this -

Pre workout - Whey + oatmeal
Post workout - Whey + Oatmeal + 25g Waxy Maize + BCAA + Glutamine.

Adding in the low GI carb may help to maintain long term insulin sensativity. Also the extra wholefood carbs pre-workout are a bonus to me as I struggle to eat a lotta cals. BCAA have been shows to increase skeletal protein synthesis.

Im adding the WM for to replenish glycogen fast - I know for sure WM works for me in terms of reglycogenation - I have done Keto diets so I know what it feels like to be depleted. I realise it creates no insulin spike.

Any comments?

 

[cobracock1979]

Post Workout Nutrition Research Studies:
While the conerstone of post-workout nutrition, traditionally has been a high carb drink immediately after a workout, many bodybuilders now advocate protein added also. A study (Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Apr;288(4):E645-53. Epub 2004 Nov 23) showed increased protein synthesis from amino acid plus carbs over the carb only. Another study (J Appl Physiol. 2004 Feb;96(2):674-8. Epub 2003 Oct 31) also found net positive body protein balance, was better with amino acids than carbs post workout. A study published in Diabetes. 1999 May;48(5):949-57, showed insulin had 3 times greater effect on amino acid transport. Researchers concluded that low amino acid availability, could limit the insulin’s effect on muscle protein synthesis after exercise.
There is some conflicting results, on the factor of protein added to carbs, on glycogen synthesis and recovery. I believe one reason why there is some conflicting results can be found in research study published in Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Jul;72(1):106-11. In the study glycogen synthesis was increased from either, protein + carbs drink or simply increasing the carb intake, compared to the normal carb drink group. The protein plus carbs and the higher carb group, had a higher insulin response than the normal carb group. In other words, adding protein and aminos to a post workout drink, just may be a expensive form of glucose(once it’s converted in the body). Therefore, the amount of carbs to cause a adequate insulin spike, is the main factor in glycogen synthesis and recovery. I should also add that, glycogen recovery is of little importance to bodybuilders. Our main focus, is post workout nutrition’s effect on protein synthesis and anabolic hormone production.
Carbohydrates are important post workout because of the hormonal changes they cause with insulin. IGF-1 releases when growth hormone and insulin are high. After a workout your insulin will be low, but your growth hormone levels should be high. By having a carb drink post workout, you will spike your insulin and cause the release of IGF-1 as a result. IGF-1 is extremely important in muscle growth. Another reason carbs are important is in controlling cortisol. Cortisol starts producing heavily near the end of a workout and we know cortisol production is blunted by spikes in insulin, which high carb intake causes.
A study in J Appl Physiol. 1998 Oct;85(4):1544-55 showed differences in hormonal changes for days, between the placebo and those supplementing carbs and protein for pre and post workout meals. In this study, growth hormone and testosterone were elevated immediately post workout. On day one, growth hormone increased more for the supplemented group. Cortisol production post workout was blunted by the supplement group. IGF-1 was also increased for the supplement group on days 2 and 3. This study shows that what you eat before and after workout, can effect your hormonal response for multiple days.
What should I eat for my post-workout meal?
You should have carbohydrates and protein as soon as possible post-workout, preferably in a liquid form. These days, many bodybuilders are now advocating low glycemic carbs after workout. These bodybuilders believe the massive high glycemic carbs post workout, leads long term to increased insulin tolerance(decreased insulin sensitivity). Maintaining insulin sensitivity long term, is crucial because it leads to more muscle gains, fat loss, and reduced risk for diabetes. Many bodybuilders have reported no reduced gains, resulting from a switch to low glycemic carbs postworkout.

>>>

 

[gjohnson5]

I posted a similar thread but its kinda gone in a good, but different direction.

Some people on EF are saying that a large insulin spike PWO will have no positive effect on protein synthesis.

Although no one has properly shown this yet, some studies have been posted which indicate the above could be a possibility.

Myself and others I know bas our whole bodybuilding regime around the idea that an insulin spike PWO is a huge aid to protein synthesis - some big changes would need to be made if this can be disproven.

Who agrees with this/ dissagrees? If so please post relevant studies evidence - I just want this thread to be about proving/ disproving this one point.
Thx in advance

Still cannot accept the fact that there is no evidence that insulin spikes do anything for anabolism PWO. LOOK , it's a long standing myth and nothing more.

1....

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

2. Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
PMID: 3967778 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3. Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink -- Manninen 40 (11): 900 -- British Journal of Sports Medicine

The studies reviewed here indicate that nutritional mixtures containing protein hydrolysates, added leucine, and high-glycaemic CHO greatly augment insulin secretion compared with high-glycaemic CHO only. When post-exercise hyperinsulinaemia is supported by protein hydrolysate and leucine ingestion-induced hyperaminoacidaemia, net protein deposition in muscle should occur. Thus, post-exercise recovery drinks containing these nutrients in conjunction with appropriate resistance training may lead to increased skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength. If so, such post-exercise supplements would be of considerable benefit not only to athletes but also to anyone who has lost muscle function through disease—for example, Duchenne muscular dystrophy. Future studies should evaluate their long-term effects on body composition and exercise performance.

SO there's three MORE studies which back my claim that when adequate proteins re present , the need for excessive CHO is not....

 

[Chrisco915]

Does it really even matter?

Remember Bull Durham.......if you are think you're making gains because you are wearing a woman's garter, taking in a PWO shake, shaving your pits against the grain, taking cheerios and stuffing them in your nose.....then you are. And you should know that.

Reference Material:
Crash Davis: If you believe you're playing well because you're getting laid, or because you're not getting laid, or because you wear women's underwear, then you ARE! And you should know that!
[long pause]
Crash Davis: Come on, Annie, think of something clever to say, huh? Something full of magic, religion, bullshit. Come on, dazzle me.

 

[cobracock1979]

Still cannot accept the fact that there is no evidence that insulin spikes do anything for anabolism PWO. LOOK , it's a long standing myth and nothing more.

1....

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

2. Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
PMID: 3967778 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3. Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink -- Manninen 40 (11): 900 -- British Journal of Sports Medicine

The studies reviewed here indicate that nutritional mixtures containing protein hydrolysates, added leucine, and high-glycaemic CHO greatly augment insulin secretion compared with high-glycaemic CHO only. When post-exercise hyperinsulinaemia is supported by protein hydrolysate and leucine ingestion-induced hyperaminoacidaemia, net protein deposition in muscle should occur. Thus, post-exercise recovery drinks containing these nutrients in conjunction with appropriate resistance training may lead to increased skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength. If so, such post-exercise supplements would be of considerable benefit not only to athletes but also to anyone who has lost muscle function through disease—for example, Duchenne muscular dystrophy. Future studies should evaluate their long-term effects on body composition and exercise performance.

SO there's three MORE studies which back my claim that when adequate proteins re present , the need for excessive CHO is not....

First 2 studies are talking about muscle reglycogenation. The third only shows that combining amino's with CHO increases the insulin response, compared with CHO by itself. We have established that BCCA' and amino's are effective in raising insulin levels, and yes - if we can establish that no additional protein syntheis occurs in an insulin rich environment, then your claim that CHO is not needed when adequet proteins are present will be validated.

Look bro, your the one who claimed to have definative proof that an insulin spike PWO doen not promote any additional protein synthesis. Stop posting irrelevent studies about glycogen synthesis and claiming they prove your point. Stop assuming everyone here is too dumb to interpret these studies.

The level of carbohydrate induced insulin should be the only variable here - insulin spike VS low levels of insulin, in combination with protein PWO. Is the latter more effective for protein synthesis, or not?

 

[gjohnson5]

First 2 studies are talking about muscle reglycogenation. The third only shows that combining amino's with CHO increases the insulin response, compared with CHO by itself. We have established that BCCA' and amino's are effective in raising insulin levels, and yes - if we can establish that no additional protein syntheis occurs in an insulin rich environment, then your claim that CHO is not needed when adequet proteins are present will be validated.

Look bro, your the one who claimed to have definitive proof that an insulin spike PWO doen not promote any additional protein synthesis. Stop posting irrelevent studies about glycogen synthesis and claiming they prove your point. Stop assuming everyone here is too dumb to interpret these studies.

The studies are totally relevant. They clearly show my point which I've stated atleast 10 times that when adequate proteins are present , insulin spike w/CHO pwo does nothing (atleast nothing in terms of protein synthesis)

I didn't say anything about you being dumb. You made that statement probably because you partly believe it. If you are smart enough to interpret studies , then why not post one which show insulin spike PWO actually has some affect in protein synthesis??

You have yet to do so

 

[cobracock1979]

The studies are totally relevant. They clearly show my point which I've stated atleast 10 times that when adequate proteins are present , insulin spike w/CHO pwo does nothing (atleast nothing in terms of protein synthesis)

I didn't say anything about you being dumb. You made that statement probably because you partly believe it. If you are smart enough to interpret studies , then why not post one which show insulin spike PWO actually has some affect in protein synthesis??

You have yet to do so

I dont have such a study - I have stated that. Hence the reason for the existance of this thread.

GJohnson - at no point have you demonstrated a comparison of high and low insulin levels on protein synthesis. Thats a fact. You have posted threads about glycogen synthesis (several), you have shown amino acids are effective at increasing slin, you have shown that more protein is synthesised in the presence of ingested protein, insulin and cho, than with just cho and insulin (duh).

You have not shown that low levels of insulin are just as effective as an insulin spike in the presence of protein and CHO.

To do this you simply need to provide a study which used a valid method to determine net protein synthesis (not hormonal markers), in 2 scenarios

1. High insulin, protein and CHO V's 2. Low insulin, protein and CHO.

In fact, if the second scenario was as effective without the presence of CHO, that would really validate everything you have said.

 

[gjohnson5]

Well I'm gonna stop here because it's going from a scientific argument to alot of mudslinging at no part of my own
Secondly you are not listening to anything I've said. I've made the points time and time again that

1. Adequate proteins are the main need in PWO
2. Insulin spike does nil because physiological insulin regulation will limit any possible anabolic effects cause by insulin
3. glycogen replenishment can be done with low gi carbs, amino acids or proteins. A large does of empty refined carbohydrates re not needed
4. If your pre workout meals include starches such as brown rice , oats and potatoes, Alan Argorn said that this would refill glycogen DURING your workout. Having said that then there is no need for empty calorie sugars PWO
5. Associating insulin injections with endogenous insulin secretion is not a valid argument. The pancrease does not secrete humalog in 10IU dosages....

I didn't say anything about you being dumb or not able to interpret studies
All I'm saying is that there is no evidence that spiking insulin PWO helps protein synthesis


You problem at this point is due to the lack of knowledge of insulin itself. Current science really doesn't know much about this hormone or its affect on other areas such as IGF-1, IGF-2 MGF, testosterone, cortisol or igf binding proteins

IMHO since the above is clearly true , then there is basis for spiking proteins PWO
Until some real data comes out , I think it's clear the answer at this time is NO to the above

 

[cobracock1979]

Well I'm gonna stop here because it's going from a scientific argument to alot of mudslinging at no part of my own
Secondly you are not listening to anything I've said. I've made the points time and time again that

1. Adequate proteins are the main need in PWO Debatable - depends on how effective an insulin spike is, which we have not established
2. Insulin spike does nil because physiological insulin regulation will limit any possible anabolic effects cause by insulin You have been unable to prove this

3. glycogen replenishment can be done with low gi carbs, amino acids or proteins. A large does of empty refined carbohydrates re not needed Agreed

4. If your pre workout meals include starches such as brown rice , oats and potatoes, Alan Argorn said that this would refill glycogen DURING your workout. Having said that then there is no need for empty calorie sugars PWO Agreed - if insulin spike can be proven to be useless
5. Associating insulin injections with endogenous insulin secretion is not a valid argument. The pancrease does not secrete humalog in 10IU dosages.... OK I'll take your word on it

I didn't say anything about you being dumb or not able to interpret studies Then why do you insist a sudy showing the effect of carbohydrate and glycogen synthesis (without the ingestion of any proteins), serves to prove that ingesting protein in the presence of an insulin spike are of no use PWO? Also the following is a quote from you "Yes you do. I don't need to reread the thread. It's YOU who need to reread your responses and edit like pronto before I show your inability to grasp concepts or inability to accept other ideas"


All I'm saying is that there is no evidence that spiking insulin PWO helps protein synthesis


You problem at this point is due to the lack of knowledge of insulin itself. Current science really doesn't know much about this hormone or its affect on other areas such as IGF-1, IGF-2 MGF, testosterone, cortisol or igf binding proteins One of the studies you posted showed high levels of insuline to increase production or IGF-1 and hinder cortisol with anabolic results

IMHO since the above is clearly true , then there is basis for spiking proteins PWO
Until some real data comes out , I think it's clear the answer at this time is NO to the above

We shall see


Anyway, OK.

What mudslinging are you referring to - this is a debate and IMO it has remained respectful. By you incinuating I'm mudslinging, you are in fact the one slinging-the-mud-by-calling-me-a-mudslinger...so back at ya...

And again, because I do not agree with you, you say I am not listening to anything you have said. Whats that all about? If your studies validated your theories I would freely admit it.

If you wish to stop here then fine. You have posted some interesting articles and I have learned some new stuff, so thats OK.

In the end - you gave it a good shot but have been unable to do what you said you could - definitavely prove that an insulin spike PWO is no more effective than low levels of insulin. You can leave it there.

On the flipside, Iv yet to see definative proof of the opposite, so lets see what happens.

Anyone else?

 

[NPC-OHIO]

We shall see


Anyway, OK.

What mudslinging are you referring to - this is a debate and IMO it has remained respectful. By you incinuating I'm mudslinging, you are in fact the one slinging-the-mud-by-calling-me-a-mudslinger...so back at ya...

And again, because I do not agree with you, you say I am not listening to anything you have said. Whats that all about? If your studies validated your theories I would freely admit it.

If you wish to stop here then fine. You have posted some interesting articles and I have learned some new stuff, so thats OK.

In the end - you gave it a good shot but have been unable to do what you said you could - definitavely prove that an insulin spike PWO is no more effective than low levels of insulin. You can leave it there.

On the flipside, Iv yet to see definative proof of the opposite, so lets see what happens.

Anyone else?

Bro, you are wasting your time arguing with this dude who doesn't even train. Why? When someone asks you your diet, would you immidiately give a diet on a non-training day? Hell no, because 5-6 days of the week it's on......It's crazy. It's not going to make that much of a difference, I promise you. Spend this time working on your training plan and you'll be better off....if the rest of your diet is in tact, pre and pose will make .00001% of the gains you make over the next year.

 

[timtim]

does anyone here feel a whey shake alone would be enough for pwo? im curious.

 

[gjohnson5]

does anyone here feel a whey shake alone would be enough for pwo? im curious.

If the person has nothing to eat 3 hours before the workout then obviously now
If the person had ample starches and slower protein pre workout , then yes some whey that included bcaa should be enough.

Also the size of the meal preworkout and the size of the shake postworkout would need to be defined

 

[cobracock1979]

from some of johnsons studies, it appears thay whey+bcaa+glutamin would work ok, and create enough insulin to stop catalaysis.

Whey + carbs (ie oats) pre woukout should also work, raising slin throughout and well after workout

 

[desmond]

I'm probably going to ditch my brief flirtation with WMS, and consume:

pre workout either: traditional oats, milk, whey, cocoa, splenda, cin; or kangaroo and butternut squash/sweet potato
post workout: quick oats, milk whey, cocoa, splenda; or whey, and white potato. oats, cocoa, milk, splenda and cin is delicious though and a treat - better tasting that WMS!

White potato - rich in potassium, high insulin and glycimic index, no fructose, seems like a winner.

 

[OneBreath]

I'm probably going to ditch my brief flirtation with WMS, and consume:

pre workout either: traditional oats, milk, whey, cocoa, splenda, cin; or kangaroo and butternut squash/sweet potato
post workout: quick oats, milk whey, cocoa, splenda; or whey, and white potato. oats, cocoa, milk, splenda and cin is delicious though and a treat - better tasting that WMS!

White potato - rich in potassium, high insulin and glycimic index, no fructose, seems like a winner.

that's pretty hardcore.

 

[timtim]

If the person has nothing to eat 3 hours before the workout then obviously now
If the person had ample starches and slower protein pre workout , then yes some whey that included bcaa should be enough.

Also the size of the meal preworkout and the size of the shake postworkout would need to be defined

what about a protein/fat meal an hour and a half pre-workout? i didnt respond well to pre-workout carbs as i have tried that for various 4 and 5 week cycles. i am currently having 8 ounces ground turkey, 5 fish oil caps, and 2 teaspoon olive oil an hour and a half pre-workout.

post workout i am finishing up a cycle of various whole foods and no carbs. i noticed very little difference with/without carbs and liquid/whole food protein with efas. i have actually stayed at 198 to 200 since my cycle had ended 2 months ago. my bf is up to 13 at most and all in my lower back, handles. i am clean bulking though.

i really just want to get to 180 and ripped. i no longer like being so heavy/big, im only 5'5" and i look ridiculous in nice clothes.

with my pre-workout diet and goal (to lose the bber look and look more athletic), you think the 50 grams of just whey would be good?

 

[desmond]

what about a protein/fat meal an hour and a half pre-workout? i didnt respond well to pre-workout carbs as i have tried that for various 4 and 5 week cycles. i am currently having 8 ounces ground turkey, 5 fish oil caps, and 2 teaspoon olive oil an hour and a half pre-workout.

post workout i am finishing up a cycle of various whole foods and no carbs. i noticed very little difference with/without carbs and liquid/whole food protein with efas. i have actually stayed at 198 to 200 since my cycle had ended 2 months ago. my bf is up to 13 at most and all in my lower back, handles. i am clean bulking though.

i really just want to get to 180 and ripped. i no longer like being so heavy/big, im only 5'5" and i look ridiculous in nice clothes.

with my pre-workout diet and goal (to lose the bber look and look more athletic), you think the 50 grams of just whey would be good?

Are u doing keto? Otherwise, why not allocate some of ur carbs PWO. I don't see a downer. Even many variations of keto include some PWO carbs

 

[timtim]

Are u doing keto? Otherwise, why not allocate some of ur carbs PWO. I don't see a downer. Even many variations of keto include some PWO carbs

actually carb cycling but i like to try everything. i just dont know about only whey post workout. my friend is a nutritionist and he said try it and see but im not sold yet. ive done alot of different things that go against the grain but this seems alittle much.

ketos are good though.

 

[cobracock1979]

Whey+bcaa+glute

Studies seen here show the combo will significantly raise insulin levels and stop catalysis PWO.

Ill be doing this when I start cutting in about 6 weeks. Perfect for keto.

 

[timtim]

Whey+bcaa+glute

Studies seen here show the combo will significantly raise insulin levels and stop catalysis PWO.

Ill be doing this when I start cutting in about 6 weeks. Perfect for keto.

ive heard of this before. this is something id be interested in running. thank you.

 

[timtim]

Whey+bcaa+glute

Studies seen here show the combo will significantly raise insulin levels and stop catalysis PWO.

Ill be doing this when I start cutting in about 6 weeks. Perfect for keto.

could you tell me the amount of bcaas and glutamine i should be using. im ordering the stuff now. thank you.

 

[cobracock1979]

I use 10g bcca + 15-20g glute. I use more glute if I have had a heavy squats or deads session and think I may be sore the next day. Glutamine is UNBELIEVABLE for treating muscle stiffness...its so true!

 

[timtim]

I use 10g bcca + 15-20g glute. I use more glute if I have had a heavy squats or deads session and think I may be sore the next day. Glutamine is UNBELIEVABLE for treating muscle stiffness...its so true!

thank you. just ordered 600 grams of bcaas and 1000 grams of glutamine from beyond a century. $55 for it all. decent price.

 

[cobracock1979]

great price!

 

[timtim]

great price!

yea?

i get all, or 99% of my stuff there. they have a green tea i take that is 98% polyphenols/50% ecgc.

1 serving is:1/10 a tsp. (they supply)
green tea extract: 250mg
total catechins (hplc): 205mg
ecgc: 125mg
caffine: <2.5mg

i take 3 to 4 scoops twice a day. its the most horrible taste which absorbs into the tongue and you must drink and eat something immediately after swallowing. if you take it on an empty stomach you will feel painful stomach cramps and shit out your guts. drink and eat, no problem at all. i take it in about 3ounces of cold water. SUPPOSED to be capped but fuck it, im not spending a day doing that shit. 6 scoops a day is 1.5 grams of all the essential parts of the tea in mega doses. metabolic increase, for me, took about 4 months. if you are cutting, stop all other thermogenics. this is all you will need and by being on only this you can truely measure its effectiveness.

and 50 grams, or 200 doses, only cost $7.50.

 

[ILiftBig]

2. Insulin spike does nil because physiological insulin regulation will limit any possible anabolic effects cause by insulin

5. Associating insulin injections with endogenous insulin secretion is not a valid argument. The pancrease does not secrete humalog in 10IU dosages....

All I'm saying is that there is no evidence that spiking insulin PWO helps protein synthesis

You problem at this point is due to the lack of knowledge of insulin itself. e

So according to gjohnson all of us who use 10-20iu of Novolog (rDNA origin) after training are wasting our time because whey protein PWO increases insulin spikes enough to maximize protein synthesis? The fact that successful BB's have been spiking insulin PWO by using fast acting exogenous rDNA origin analogs combined with whey protein and dextrose kind of tells me that these studies are interesting but mean little in the real world.Thanks anyway but I'll keep spiking my insulin after training.

I always get pretty damn good growth from it insulin spikes PWO (~3-4bs of LBM/6 weeks). While somethings look really good in theory, in practice it's obvious these scientists are missing out on something. You are right, the pancreas doesn't secret humalog (most of which is not rDNA) but the fact that huge insulin spikes have been working for years for many of us will never be negated by a few research studies. They just need to get back in the labs and figure out why it is working for all of us.

 

[gjohnson5]

So according to gjohnson all of us who use 10-20iu of Novolog (rDNA origin) after training are wasting our time because whey protein PWO increases insulin spikes enough to maximize protein synthesis? The fact that successful BB's have been spiking insulin PWO by using fast acting exogenous rDNA origin analogs combined with whey protein and dextrose kind of tells me that these studies are interesting but mean little in the real world.Thanks anyway but I'll keep spiking my insulin after training.

I always get pretty damn good growth from it insulin spikes PWO (~3-4bs of LBM/6 weeks). While somethings look really good in theory, in practice it's obvious these scientists are missing out on something. You are right, the pancreas doesn't secret humalog (most of which is not rDNA) but the fact that huge insulin spikes have been working for years for many of us will never be negated by a few research studies. They just need to get back in the labs and figure out why it is working for all of us.

The part in bold is not associated with what I'm saying. I'm saying that CARBS are not going to illicit an insulin spike great enough to induce the gains you would get from an injection

 

[ledhead]

The part in bold is not associated with what I'm saying. I'm saying that CARBS are not going to illicit an insulin spike great enough to induce the gains you would get from an injection

Very true.

 

[gjohnson5]

Very true.

And infact just to appease this thread , I am currently experimenting with stacking ribose with creatine . Ribose is a sugar this is said to augment the effects of creatine supplementation. (I am currently experimenting with 4 creatines pre/intraworkout ... Creatine magnesium chelate , creatine Monohydrate, creatine AKG, and CGP) A similar product is creatine gluconate which binds glucose with creatine that I am experimenting with PWO. The added high GI carbs (according to the OP) should augment anabolism as they would illicit a heavy insulin response.

I have not found any data that shows the use of creatine gluconate or ribose significantly augmenting anabolism or protein synthesis pre or post workout.

If some is found please share

 

[ledhead]

And infact just to appease this thread , I am currently experimenting with stacking ribose with creatine . Ribose is a sugar this is said to augment the effects of creatine supplementation. (I am currently experimenting with 4 creatines pre/intraworkout ... Creatine magnesium chelate , creatine Monohydrate, creatine AKG, and CGP) A similar product is creatine gluconate which binds glucose with creatine that I am experimenting with PWO. The added high GI carbs (according to the OP) should augment anabolism as they would illicit a heavy insulin response.

I have not found any data that shows the use of creatine gluconate or ribose significantly augmenting anabolism or protein synthesis pre or post workout.

If some is found please share

I had a thread going on here called "Ledhead Unleashed." I expound on ribose, carbs, and creatine to a degree. Go to posts: #302, #442, and #463.