Instant banishment for asking this.....

[chesty]

Well then, post your complete analysis, just as I have stated.

Pleeeezee,

You have yet to answer one question that has been put forth, about your hypothesis.

Answer my above questions.

1. assumptions
2. limitations
3. how you determined the graphs
4. real world evidence to back up your claims

I am not denying that you have not done your homework. But like any good study, if the person or group doing the study feels that it is valid, they publish all the facts, not just some graphs and a lot of words.

So, how does an ester work?

 

[Andy13]

Did you not read my last post? The graphs used are based on the theoretical half life.. I've already provided the equation.. if you want to see where I derived it then go check out a Diff Equ's book....

Sure it has limitations.. But it's the most valid piece of information we (BBers) have...

The only thing that would add some validity would be blood tests..

But if we took blood tests from 100's of BBers, the mean would probably look something like the graphs.. Sure, there would be deviations, however, AAS esters do follow an expoential decay (half life) model that other drugs follow...

Other important factors in determining the actual half life are injection site and AAS concentration in oil (also BA content)... But these are hardly quantifiable for me.

Andy

 

[jboldman]

For a real life blood level graph of enanathate injection go here:
http://www.medibolics.com/freq2.htm

 

[Andy13]

Yup.. The "actual" blood tests in that link indicate that AAS esters do follow the "theoretical" model that I have been graphing

Andy

 

[Zyglamail]

1. assumptions
2. limitations
3. how you determined the graphs
4. real world evidence to back up your claims

Chesty, in actuality, this is like the 4th or 5th thread on this topic and in almost each on of them you above questions have been asked.

Assumptions are based on the fact that a drug will only stay in your system for so long, I think we can all agree on that right?

Limitations - it has been stated many times that the numbers in the graphs ONLY represent the pure half life of the product and do not take into account the other factors such as inj volume, inj location, oil used to carry AAS or any of the other variables.

How the graphs were determined was by using the formula that has been plasterd all over these boards for months.

real world evidence is trickling in as more and more people start to frontload and/or increase inj frequency. Tren is a very good example of a lot of people reporting much better gains inj tren ed VS eod, using the same amount of AAS over the length of the cycle.

As for making the assumptions clear, no its not clear to the casual browser who does not really take the time to read the threads and dicussion, but at the same time I am not some kids mommy and I am not going to put a fucking 5 page disclaimer in front of every post stating the obvious. There is all sorts of speculation and bullshit advice here and This is the first thing that many have challenged even in light of its admitted shortcommings.

Fuck, and here I thought this was a discussion board, but I guess its just a home for "the good ol boys" to strut around and when a decent theory comes along and it wasnt started by one of them, it should be ridiculed and shunned instead of expanded upon and contributed to. Perhaps Geaorge needs to rename the link here and change it from a discussion board, which this apparently isnt, to "regurgitated and reiterated news".

 

[The Iron Game]

Fuck, and here I thought this was a discussion board, but I guess its just a home for "the good ol boys" to strut around and when a decent theory comes along and it wasnt started by one of them, it should be ridiculed and shunned instead of expanded upon and contributed to

I agree this is a discussion board but I dont feel shooting enanthate every other day is a descent theory when in fact you can shoot it twice a week with almost identical results.

 

[Zyglamail]

but I dont feel shooting enanthate every other day is a descent theory when in fact you can shoot it twice a week with almost identical results.

almost identical is not the same as identical results, so in essence you do admit there may be an improvement. However its likely too small to be worth while. Out of curiosity, Have you done enth ED and 2x week and compared the results yourself or do you know those who have? I dont want to turn this into a pissing match, because I have the utmost respect for you Iron Game but I would like to know why your opinion is as it is.

At the same time, I dont think anyone is saying that frequent inj will double your gains or anything so drastic and I know that I myself have stated that these theories are for those that want to attempt to get the absolute most out of a cycle. Perhaps the net result is only 1 lb of lean mass perhaps its 5lbs, we really wont know until more people try it. As the results trickle in perhaps the perception will change, perhaps it wont but just because something works does not mean we cant theorize and try to imporve it.....or is that against the rules?

 

[The Iron Game]

almost identical is not the same as identical results, so in essence you do admit there may be an improvement.

alomost identical? yes there maybe an improvement, the emphasis on being maybe. Now is there any evidence what so ever that shooting enanthate on every other day will bring with it better gains and lower side effects? 500mgs is 500mgs is 500mgs. Why should I buy an extra 100 pins and syringes for a cycle when the truth of the matter is I dont need to? The peak is after '24' hours ? so shooting every 24 hours is necessary.

Zyg.
Half life of enanthate is 7 days?
Half life of fina is 24 hours?

enanthate must be shot every other day so
once again fina must be shot every 6 hours?

This is the exact example of why in theory it will work but in practise shooting fina once every day does plenty on its own. Why waste needles, injections, frequency of injections, and last but not leasy splitting 2 amps of 250mgs enanthate in to every other day amounts?

It would be more efficient to shoot enanthate daily not? Are people fools though? We know from real world experience once every 5 days is sufficient. Are you claiming that shooting 500mgs of enanthate split up will bring an increase in muscle mass than shooting it every 3rd or 4th day?


12 months ago people used to shoot enanthate once a week. 6 months ago I started shooting all steroids with a long acting ester once every 5 days. This is completely sufficient. My aim is to get defined/big/shredded whatever. It is not to have to inject myself every day or every other day without some logical reasoning and im afraid shooting enanthate every other day has no logical reasoning.

Real World Experience is where its at.

When you start shooting fina once every 6 hours I will start shooting enanthate every other day



Peace

 

[Zyglamail]

Okay TIG, I understand your reasoning and hesitancy, but is it also safe to assume you have never tried the two methods and compared the results for yourself? I dont blame you for not wanting to shoot enth eod, but at the same time I guess I am surprised your not more open to the possibility of a noticable imporvement. It sounds as if you just need some more evidence or good words from those who have used it. Now, if that is what is needed, and the theory does have potential merrit, than why are so many people bashing the idea(note idea, not rule) instead of encouraging people to try? Isnt anyone curious? I know I am, and since my next cycle will involve ed fina injections I plan on splitting my eq and enth doses and doing them 6x a week.

As for tren, if the acetate ester has a half life of 36-48 hours and pure tren has a halfe life of say 8 hours, how can you combine the two and have a shorter half life?

 

[The Iron Game]

As for tren, if the acetate ester has a half life of 36-48 hours and pure tren has a halfe life of say 8 hours, how can you combine the two and have a shorter half life?

I know nothing of fina. This is my first time using it, the 24 hour half life was quoted from Stew Meat or Andy 13, the latter I believe.

The last 2 days I am shooting: and will continue to shoot for the next 6 weeks.

100mgs winny daily (2cc's)
50mgs fina daily (0.5cc's)
50mgs prop daily (0.5cc's)

I have no problem with frequent injections. I have a problem with unnecessary frequent injections.

You ask me have I tried and compared them? I highly doubt I will find a difference in shooting the enanthate every 3rd day or 4th instead of every 2nd.

The only reason I would ever suggest shooting enanthate every other day is when volume of injection is so high that it is the only viable option.

So are you going to shoot your fina 3 t- 4 times a day along with your winstrol? Because if not then I am sorry Zyg but everything you have been defending in this post is hypocritical.

Peace my brutha

 

[Zyglamail]

So are you going to shoot your fina 3 t- 4 times a day along with your winstrol? Because if not then I am sorry Zyg but everything you have been defending in this post is hypocritical.

It may be hypocritical by what you believe the half life of TA to be, but personally I feel the half life of tren to be 72 hours, so shooting ed is comparable to shooting enth eod is it not?

 

[chesty]

And what are the downsides to theincreased build up of scar tissue due to shooting more often. Especially if tests are used in a cutting cycle with winny and other water based drugs?

I am not disputing the theory, I just like to see more info than a graph and a statement. If this is the third or fourth post on this, provide the links to all of the relevant data and material facts to support the claim. Then you would not keep repeating yourself. Also, I think in practice, the theory is not practical (imo)

 

[Zyglamail]

I am not disputing the theory, I just like to see more info than a graph and a statement. If this is the third or fourth post on this, provide the links to all of the relevant data and material facts to support the claim.

Chesty, do you think Ed inj of tren are better than eod assuming the same amount of gear? If so, all this thread has been about was expanding on that idea and carrying the idea over to other AAS. Is it worthwhile? Hard to say until more people try. Do you want to be one to give it a whirl, noper, sure doesnt look like it and thats OK, no body is saying the theory is perfect, no one is saying its a rule. All that is really trying to be said is it may have merit and is possibly worth discussing and trying.

While on the surface it appears this board is a great place to share info and ideas, it sure as does not appear to be the case. I would have expected people here to be a curious lot and be interested in discussing the pros and cons of possible advancements in our sport, but all I see is a bunch of people yelling "show me proof". I guess I could just as easily rely upon the excuse all the nay sayers seem to be throwing around and ask for proof that whats mentioned in this post IS NOT better.

To me, its just about thinking and expanding on ideas, thinking outside the box and trying to get better results. But I guess people dont want that, they just want to stick with what they have been told, never looking to improve or expand on ideas or try something new.

 

[Andy13]

.

The last 2 days I am shooting: and will continue to shoot for the next 6 weeks.

100mgs winny daily (2cc's)
50mgs fina daily (0.5cc's)
50mgs prop daily (0.5cc's)

I have no problem with frequent injections. I have a problem with unnecessary frequent injections.

You ask me have I tried and compared them? I highly doubt I will find a difference in shooting the enanthate every 3rd day or 4th instead of every 2nd.

You WONT see any improvements.. Because you don't want to.. Then you can come back here and tell Zyg and I to fuck off.

BBing is so overrun by suggestive psychology.. Even if you did make the "gains" there would be no way to quantify them.


If there were a way to prove or disprove this theory, it wouldn't be trying it out on a bunch of guys.. Remember, some guys used to swear by shit like Boron and Cybergenics...

Even if both expiriments were done on the same person, there would be so many ? marks that the study, statistically, would be worthless.

IG-Shoot your enth every five days..

 

[jboldman]

This seems so elementary to me, someone suggested a theory that might maximize gains from AAS injections. Seems like a reasonable theory to me, in fact it backs up what I personally have been doing for some time, ie enanthate eod, fina ed, eq eod(soemtimes ED). Yes,sometimes I feel like a pincushion but rotating glutes, quads,tris,delts gives me a break. Until someone actually does the hard research(unlikely) or until a compelling number of individuals try it and report we will not really know how effective it is in reality or whether the difference is substantial enough to bother with. Hey guys, take it for what it is, a THEORY, try it if you want , or not. Weigh it on the merits of its logic but dont flame! I for one appreciate the fact that some of us involved have the knowledge and inclination to push the envelope.

 

[panerai]

I agree, why so many people took Andy's and Zyg's ideas so personally?
Can't we just agree that it's a matter of choice?
It is very obvious that more frequent injections are more beneficial, whoever doesn't think so, can't use simple logic.
Now, when we talk about HOW MUCH more they are beneficial, comparing, for example, ed, eod, or e3d, then it's really become a personal choice between having to poke yourself less often, or getting slightly better results with slightly less side effects.
The very valuable information is provided, but it's still a guide, not some kind of rule, everyone can choose what fits for him.

 

[Andy13]

I agree, why so many people took Andy's and Zyg's ideas so personally?
Can't we just agree that it's a matter of choice?
It is very obvious that more frequent injections are more beneficial, whoever doesn't think so, can't use simple logic.
Now, when we talk about HOW MUCH more they are beneficial, comparing, for example, ed, eod, or e3d, then it's really become a personal choice between having to poke yourself less often, or getting slightly better results with slightly less side effects.
The very valuable information is provided, but it's still a guide, not some kind of rule, everyone can choose what fits for him.

Amen.

As I have stated in infinite number of times.. The more injections, the better.. Of course there is a point of deminishing returns when you're injecting enanthate five times a day... But for the next guy, that point might be EOD..

It's up the the individual BBer to decide when that point is.

 

[badazzwhitedude]

This thread was interesting at first, but it has gotten old and very repetitive.