Input on PCT

[Manuel Hung]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am planning on a somewhat light cycle.


Week 1-6
Test C-350mg/week
Winny-50mg/EOD
HCG-500 IU's/E3rdD

Week7-8
Test C-350mg/week
HCG-500 IU's/E3rdD

I will also run Anastrozole E3rdD.

My question is about post cycle HCG.

I have read the stickies and other threads and it seems the opinions vary very much.

When should I discontinue the HCG? From what I read it seems like I should stop usage roughly 7-10 days after my last Test C injection.

I have Nolva for PCT also. I right now plan on a PCT of:

Week 9
HCG-500 IU's/E3rdD
Anastrozole E3rdD

Week 10-12
Nolva 20mg/ED


Any experienced guys input is very much appreciated.

 

[hehateme000]

stop HCGand wait 2 weeks then do 3 weeks HCG 250iu 2x EW.

 

[eddymerckx]

not sure you need 500 every 3rd day on that cycle. wait til your third week and start with 250 every 4th day.

next, is there a reason you plan to run the a-dex thoughout the cycle? (e.g. propen for gyno)

 

[GUARDIAN]

stop HCGand wait 2 weeks then do 3 weeks HCG 250iu 2x EW.

i would use the 250 IU's 2X ew. but no need 2 stop i would continue all the way through pct. u may want 2 run nolva for 3-4 weeks.

 

[hehateme000]

i would use the 250 IU's 2X ew. but no need 2 stop i would continue all the way through pct. u may want 2 run nolva for 3-4 weeks.

oh i thought u wanted to stop the HCG at your last test injection...then if u wanted it in your PCT as well u would start it when u would start clomid (2 weeks)

 

[GUARDIAN]

oh i thought u wanted to stop the HCG at your last test injection...then if u wanted it in your PCT as well u would start it when u would start clomid (2 weeks)

running it into pct will help the recovery process.

 

[needtogetaas]

oh i thought u wanted to stop the HCG at your last test injection...then if u wanted it in your PCT as well u would start it when u would start clomid (2 weeks)

No its good to go a week or 2 past the cycle depending on the compounds you are running. Say you ended your cycle with just test-e. Then ending hcg 1 week past cycle is fine. If you end you with deca (witch is not always good) then run the hcg 2 weeks past. Or last if ou end cycle with eq then run the hcg 3 weeks past cycle.

I am Not found of just nolva or clomid alone for pct. They work for a lot of people but even then they still make for a shitty pct. I would use some sustain alpha 5 pumps ed. Pm me if you want a discount.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

I always recommend reviewing the PoWeR PCT protocol. This is the only PCT protocol with actual clinical data supporting its efficacy. Everything else is really just speculation.

http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf

 

[Nelson Montana]

I always recommend reviewing the PoWeR PCT protocol. This is the only PCT protocol with actual clinical data supporting its efficacy. Everything else is really just speculation.

http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf

Now you see, I think that's a perfect example of how those finding are so utterly fucked.

First of all, it;s uncontrolled and with HIV men. But let's suspend such factors for now and deal with the treatment. If you read those finding closely you'll see the treatment "cured" nothing. The protocol simply caused and elevation while on. The average T level was back to normal 12 weeks after treatment -- about the same amount of time it would take if NOTHING were used. AND...it doesn't say HOW LONG after treatment. T levels could have continued to drop, in which case recovery would actually be delayed. And this doesn't even address the "backlash" effect.

In the meantime, there are about 25% of men who respond horribly to the drug. It causes mood swings, lethargy and a debilitated libido. Why isn't estrogen ever checked in any of these tests with Clomid? I believe the answer to its unreliability lies in that aspect of its effect.

It isn't economically feasible to do an extensive double blind study with sufficient subject being monitored on a daily basis but judging from experience, peripheral statistics and empirical evidence I can say that in most cases, the PCT I propose is faster, safer and more effective than any utilizing Clomid or Nolva.

 

[alphatest]

I think you are misreading the results. The T levels returned to normal after 45 days of pct treatment not 12 weeks. Also what is your evidence that 25% of men don't respond well to clomid, all studies on men in the 25 - 50 mg/day range have reported very few side effects. Unless you contend that the drug companies are suppressing data this is a pretty baseless claim.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I think you are misreading the results. The T levels returned to normal after 45 days of pct treatment not 12 weeks. Also what is your evidence that 25% of men don't respond well to clomid, all studies on men in the 25 - 50 mg/day range have reported very few side effects. Unless you contend that the drug companies are suppressing data this is a pretty baseless claim.

Read the results. It says "at the conclusion of a 12 week program."

Who said anything about drug companies suppressing data? Clomid is a fertility drug for women.

What evidence do I have that Clomid has terrible sides in 25% of men? The fact that I've been studying this for almost 10 years now and have seen the same result over and over. So my conclusion is approx 25%. It may be a little more, a little less. Read the boards and you'll see for yourself. MANY guys react badly to it.

A word of advice though. Don't try to make arguments based on minutia, or nit picking or putting words in anyone's mouth. That shit doesn't fly in these parts.

 

[needtogetaas]

I think you are misreading the results. The T levels returned to normal after 45 days of pct treatment not 12 weeks. Also what is your evidence that 25% of men don't respond well to clomid, all studies on men in the 25 - 50 mg/day range have reported very few side effects. Unless you contend that the drug companies are suppressing data this is a pretty baseless claim.

Not really bro. Like I was telling some one the other day. You will see all kinds of test, but all you need to do is look around sites like this. Take to real people and be around a wile. You will see many many people do not like clomid any more. Many people do get sides from it.

Hell so man people get sides from it that it has been a running joke for decades that if a man is acting like a girl on this site. He must be using clomid.

 

[alphatest]

Read the results. It says "at the conclusion of a 12 week program."

Who said anything about drug companies suppressing data? Clomid is a fertility drug for women.

What evidence do I have that Clomid has terrible sides in 25% of men? The fact that I've been studying this for almost 10 years now and have seen the same result over and over. So my conclusion is approx 25%. It may be a little more, a little less. Read the boards and you'll see for yourself. MANY guys react badly to it.

A word of advice though. Don't try to make arguments based on minutia, or nit picking or putting words in anyone's mouth. That shit doesn't fly in these parts.

No the ANDROGEN treatment lasted 12 weeks!!!! The PCT was 45 days for the longest compound (tamoxifen). HCG was given for 16 days, Clomid for 30 and tamoxifen for 45. I quote verbatim from the discussion.

"The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation."

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I only see what you type on the boards. You claim that 25% of men respond badly to clomid, when all medical studies on hypogondal men claim otherwise. The trans isomer of clomid is currently in phase III clinical trails for treatment of hypogondal men. All data coming back from these studies indicates no serious side effects in test subjects.

 

[needtogetaas]

No the ANDROGEN treatment lasted 12 weeks!!!! The PCT was 45 days for the longest compound (tamoxifen). HCG was given for 16 days, Clomid for 30 and tamoxifen for 45. I quote verbatim from the discussion.

"The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation."

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I only see what you type on the boards. You claim that 25% of men respond badly to clomid, when all medical studies on hypogondal men claim otherwise. The trans isomer of clomid is currently in phase III clinical trails for treatment of hypogondal men. All data coming back from these studies indicates no serious side effects in test subjects.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/8121981-post12.html

 

[Nelson Montana]

I stand corrected on the length of time, but the results remain the same. There's no evidence of how long the elevation lasted. There are also other factors of that study that are sketchy. No variance in any of the subjects in regard to recovery?

You seem to conclude "all studies conclude otherwise." I say they do not, as evidenced by the one we're discussing right now. This is what I call FONZ mentality. As long as there's a study to be cut and pasted , to some people, they WIN the message board battle! Even if the study is flawed or is conducted poorly shows nothing in regerd to what it actually being claimed. Hey, it's a study!

These studies can claim no serious side effects but talk to those 25% of guys with whom it doesn't react well and you'll get a different story. I also know a lot of endos who won't prescribe it for these very reasons (not very effective, plus bad sides).

So it looks like we have different perspectives. Some people read Big Cat articles some people speak to doctors. You're bound to get varying opinions.

 

[Pat_McCrotch]

Now you see, I think that's a perfect example of how those finding are so utterly fucked.

First of all, it;s uncontrolled and with HIV men. But let's suspend such factors for now and deal with the treatment. If you read those finding closely you'll see the treatment "cured" nothing. The protocol simply caused and elevation while on. The average T level was back to normal 12 weeks after treatment -- about the same amount of time it would take if NOTHING were used. AND...it doesn't say HOW LONG after treatment. T levels could have continued to drop, in which case recovery would actually be delayed. And this doesn't even address the "backlash" effect.

In the meantime, there are about 25% of men who respond horribly to the drug. It causes mood swings, lethargy and a debilitated libido. Why isn't estrogen ever checked in any of these tests with Clomid? I believe the answer to its unreliability lies in that aspect of its effect.

It isn't economically feasible to do an extensive double blind study with sufficient subject being monitored on a daily basis but judging from experience, peripheral statistics and empirical evidence I can say that in most cases, the PCT I propose is faster, safer and more effective than any utilizing Clomid or Nolva.

Hey nelson I think you may have misread this. it says 19 hiv negative men.


then it says 12 week program of treatment with andrgogens. The PCT was a total of 45 days. Looking at the Mean Hormone Levels During Program table to the far right shows that after the 45 day protocol they were near what they were before th start of androgens.


These drugs may have more sides then I care to deal with but they work and this is what the OP was asking.


To the OP. Nelson has some great OTC PCT products but if you already have the other stuff on hand then this protocol show it returns to normal after 45 days of use.

So if you want to deal with the sides of clomid or dont ever feel any then use it away. If you want to avoid the sides then try of NM products. He has them listed in his sig.

 

[needtogetaas]

I stand corrected on the length of time, but the results remain the same. There's no evidence of how long the elevation lasted. There are also other factors of that study that are sketchy. No variance in any of the subjects in regard to recovery?

You seem to conclude "all studies conclude otherwise." I say they do not, as evidenced by the one we're discussing right now. This is what I call FONZ mentality. As long as there's a study to be cut and pasted , to some people, they WIN the message board battle! Even if the study is flawed or is conducted poorly shows nothing in regerd to what it actually being claimed. Hey, it's a study!

These studies can claim no serious side effects but talk to those 25% of guys with whom it doesn't react well and you'll get a different story. I also know a lot of endos who won't prescribe it for these very reasons (not very effective, plus bad sides).

So it looks like we have different perspectives. Some people read Big Cat articles some people speak to doctors. You're bound to get varying opinions.

SOme times its just best to look at what the people around you are saying. Real life user feed back is the best study one can get. Put them all together and you have yourself all the studies,charts,facts you need.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715217-post2.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715372-post4.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715638-post6.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6720116-post21.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5973832-post4.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5973880-post5.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5974892-post16.html


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6471250-post23.html
This guy latter said his pct with both clomid and nolva sucked big time and was very happy he found pp products that have been helping him^^^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904909-post2.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904918-post3.html

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904999-post5.html
Not when there are other things that work with out the sides bro. ^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5906724-post13.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5937630-post18.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939015-post19.html



http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939029-post20.html
This guy got permanent tracers nice^^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939186-post21.html
o look here is the gu I was talking about. Guess he did not like it lol^^^^

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/4796152-post4.html

Who the fuck wants to feel like this well on pct. It dos not have to be like this people. When are people going to get it^^^^^^

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/4798666-post10.html
cool my fucking ass^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/3821854-post4.html
Just don't sound right to me lol. No it dos not (always go away).^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/poll-who-gets-sides-clomid-301291.html
hmmm this thread says 33% get real bad sides and another 12% get sides so bad they can't use it. To top it all of a very very sad sad 33% over all said they got no sides. I am willing to bet a few cycles latter they would have changed there minds. ^^^^^^^^ Guess you can call that a real human study but what ever.


Now there is about 500000000000 more post and threads I can post up. Any one getting the point here? thanks.


Any way I am not saying clomid will not work for some or that its got no place in the game. I am just saying stop acting like its the greatest. Some with nolva. Stop acting like years of studies and people using means things should never change. Or people should not look at other products for pct.

There are products that work and make you feel great well taking them. Hell
even if you take them with clomid or nolva they make you feel great.

I say fuck your studies,fuck your bullshit its been working for years. I want to feel good and have a good recovery. Yes clomid makes more people then not feel like shit, and no it dos not always work.


Clomid and nolva suck for a whole lot of people. They are not the answer to every pct. Stop acting like they are.

 

[Nelson Montana]

SOme times its just best to look at what the people around you are saying. Real life user feed back is the best study one can get. Put them all together and you have yourself all the studies,charts,facts you need.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715217-post2.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715372-post4.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715638-post6.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6720116-post21.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5973832-post4.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5973880-post5.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5974892-post16.html


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6471250-post23.html
This guy latter said his pct with both clomid and nolva sucked big time and was very happy he found pp products that have been helping him^^^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904909-post2.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904918-post3.html

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904999-post5.html
Not when there are other things that work with out the sides bro. ^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5906724-post13.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5937630-post18.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939015-post19.html



http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939029-post20.html
This guy got permanent tracers nice^^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939186-post21.html
o look here is the gu I was talking about. Guess he did not like it lol^^^^

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/4796152-post4.html

Who the fuck wants to feel like this well on pct. It dos not have to be like this people. When are people going to get it^^^^^^

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/4798666-post10.html
cool my fucking ass^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/3821854-post4.html
Just don't sound right to me lol. No it dos not (always go away).^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/poll-who-gets-sides-clomid-301291.html
hmmm this thread says 33% get real bad sides and another 12% get sides so bad they can't use it. To top it all of a very very sad sad 33% over all said they got no sides. I am willing to bet a few cycles latter they would have changed there minds. ^^^^^^^^ Guess you can call that a real human study but what ever.


Now there is about 500000000000 more post and threads I can post up. Any one getting the point here? thanks.


Any way I am not saying clomid will not work for some or that its got no place in the game. I am just saying stop acting like its the greatest. Some with nolva. Stop acting like years of studies and people using means things should never change. Or people should not look at other products for pct.

There are products that work and make you feel great well taking them. Hell
even if you take them with clomid or nolva they make you feel great.

I say fuck your studies,fuck your bullshit its been working for years. I want to feel good and have a good recovery. Yes clomid makes more people then not feel like shit, and no it dos not always work.


Clomid and nolva suck for a whole lot of people. They are not the answer to every pct. Stop acting like they are.

Leave it needto to come through with the hard evidence. K to you my brother.

 

[alphatest]

SOme times its just best to look at what the people around you are saying. Real life user feed back is the best study one can get. Put them all together and you have yourself all the studies,charts,facts you need.

I mean no disrespect but there is a good reason medical studies don't rely on anecdotal evidence. Don't you think it is just a little silly to claim that user feed back on message boards trumps everything else. Especially when the studies in question on are done on real live users.

Any way I am not saying clomid will not work for some or that its got no place in the game. I am just saying stop acting like its the greatest. Some with nolva. Stop acting like years of studies and people using means things should never change. Or people should not look at other products for pct.

I never claimed it was the greatest. This board seems to hold PP's products in high regard and I am in no way insinuating that clomid is superior. Nelson completely misrepresented the study (HIV status, Duration of treatment) and I just wanted to set the record straight.


[/QUOTE]
There are products that work and make you feel great well taking them. Hell
even if you take them with clomid or nolva they make you feel great.
I say fuck your studies,fuck your bullshit its been working for years. I want to feel good and have a good recovery. Yes clomid makes more people then not feel like shit, and no it dos not always work.
Clomid and nolva suck for a whole lot of people. They are not the answer to every pct. Stop acting like they are.[/QUOTE]



Let me ask you this. Why do you think there is such a difference in the experiences of users on this message board, vs those who take clomid in a clinical setting. Remember a drug company is banking 100's of millions of dollars on the idea that clomid can both effectively raise test with minimal negative sides. I would not be so quick to discount it, when TAKEN at the proper DOSAGE.

 

[sugashane]

SOme times its just best to look at what the people around you are saying. Real life user feed back is the best study one can get. Put them all together and you have yourself all the studies,charts,facts you need.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715217-post2.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715372-post4.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6715638-post6.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6720116-post21.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5973832-post4.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5973880-post5.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5974892-post16.html


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/6471250-post23.html
This guy latter said his pct with both clomid and nolva sucked big time and was very happy he found pp products that have been helping him^^^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904909-post2.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904918-post3.html

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5904999-post5.html
Not when there are other things that work with out the sides bro. ^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5906724-post13.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5937630-post18.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939015-post19.html



http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939029-post20.html
This guy got permanent tracers nice^^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/5939186-post21.html
o look here is the gu I was talking about. Guess he did not like it lol^^^^

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/4796152-post4.html

Who the fuck wants to feel like this well on pct. It dos not have to be like this people. When are people going to get it^^^^^^

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/4798666-post10.html
cool my fucking ass^^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/3821854-post4.html
Just don't sound right to me lol. No it dos not (always go away).^^^


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/poll-who-gets-sides-clomid-301291.html
hmmm this thread says 33% get real bad sides and another 12% get sides so bad they can't use it. To top it all of a very very sad sad 33% over all said they got no sides. I am willing to bet a few cycles latter they would have changed there minds. ^^^^^^^^ Guess you can call that a real human study but what ever.


Now there is about 500000000000 more post and threads I can post up. Any one getting the point here? thanks.


Any way I am not saying clomid will not work for some or that its got no place in the game. I am just saying stop acting like its the greatest. Some with nolva. Stop acting like years of studies and people using means things should never change. Or people should not look at other products for pct.

There are products that work and make you feel great well taking them. Hell
even if you take them with clomid or nolva they make you feel great.

I say fuck your studies,fuck your bullshit its been working for years. I want to feel good and have a good recovery. Yes clomid makes more people then not feel like shit, and no it dos not always work.


Clomid and nolva suck for a whole lot of people. They are not the answer to every pct. Stop acting like they are.

Damn. So do you think people should have several different oprions for their first few cycles so they know how each affects them? Or just run one so you know exactly how that one will affect you?

 

[Nelson Montana]

I mean no disrespect but there is a good reason medical studies don't rely on anecdotal evidence. Don't you think it is just a little silly to claim that user feed back on message boards trumps everything else. Especially when the studies in question on are done on real live users.

..........................................

AND THE PEOPLE MENTIONED AREN'T REAL AND LIVING? LOTS OF THINGS WRONG WITH THAT STUDY .




...................................................................



I never claimed it was the greatest. This board seems to hold PP's products in high regard and I am in no way insinuating that clomid is superior. Nelson completely misrepresented the study (HIV status, Duration of treatment) and I just wanted to set the record straight.

..........................................................

GRANTED, I SKIMMED SOME DETAILS AND THAT'S MY ERROR, BUT THE CONCLUSION IS THE SAME. THE TESTS WERE FLAWED FOR THE REASONS MENTIONED. YOU DON'T SEEM TO WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.


............................................



Let me ask you this. Why do you think there is such a difference in the experiences of users on this message board, vs those who take clomid in a clinical setting. Remember a drug company is banking 100's of millions of dollars on the idea that clomid can both effectively raise test with minimal negative sides.

.....................................................

YOU JUST ANSWERED YOUR OWN QUESTION. THIS IS A DRUG THAT ISN'T EVEN DESIGNED FOR THIS PURPOSE BUT IF THEY CAN SELL IT AS SUCH, THEY'LL FIND A STUDY THAT SAYS RHOADE ISLAND IS BIGGER THAN ALASKA TO PROVE IT. THERE IS ZERO INVESTMENT IN CLOMID FOR THE PURPOSE OF RESTORING HPTA AND THIS STUDY IS HARDLY A BIG EXPENSE.



.....................................................................


I would not be so quick to discount it, when TAKEN at the proper DOSAGE.

..............................................

THERE IS NONE. ODDLY ENOUGH, AT A LOW DOSAGE CLOMID CAN WORK WORSE, SINCE IT'LL ADD ESTROGEN BUT NOT ENOUGH TO COMPETE FOR RECEPTOR ACCEPTANCE. THE POINT IS, THERE ARE BETTER WAYS. AND CLOMID IS SOMETHING THAT IS VERY MISUNDERSTOOD. IF YOU WANT TO GO WITH THE ACCEPTED THINKING YOU SHOULDN'T USE STEROIDS BECAUSE PEOPLE IN THE THE MEDICAL PROFESSION SAY THEY'LL KILL YOU.

..

 

[needtogetaas]

Damn. So do you think people should have several different oprions for their first few cycles so they know how each affects them? Or just run one so you know exactly how that one will affect you?

People always want to take the cheap way out. They do it with there cycles,there pct and even there diets.

Pct is not the time to be cheap. Its the most importent part of the cycle. After all it matters nothing what you gained if you can't keep it and stay in the gym after it.

Yes I think people should have options on hand. They should have everything covered.

 

[alphatest]

For someone that has been in the game for so long I feel you are totally ignoring the positive evidence. I have never said the original study post at the beginning of this thread was the end all be all. In 2003 Columbia University published an article summarizing their study on the use of Clomid at 25mg/day to increase test levels. Pasted below is the pertinent information.

The Columbia study evaluated the use of clomiphene citrate tablets in 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism, which was defined as a serum testosterone level < 300 ng/dl. Each patient received a daily dose of 25 mg of clomiphene citrate. The average patient age was 39 years, with 12 over age 40. The average pretreatment testosterone level was 247.6 ng/dl. All patients received the drug for at least three months; the entire group was followed for 1 year.

By the first follow-up visit, which occurred between four and six weeks of the start of therapy, the average testosterone level rose to 610 ng/dl, an increase of 146 percent compared with baseline. This response was seen in all patients regardless of age.
No patients reported any of the known side effects of clomiphene citrate, such as hot flashes, visual disturbances, or headaches. “In fact, most patients reported improvements in overall well-being, sex drive, physical strength, and mood on follow-up visit interviews. Some experienced these changes in as little as three months of therapy,” points out Dr. Fisch.


Perhaps you can clarify why the findings by doctors at Columbia university directly conflict with your claim that a dose of 25mg/day will actually make the situation worse.

YOU JUST ANSWERED YOUR OWN QUESTION. THIS IS A DRUG THAT ISN'T EVEN DESIGNED FOR THIS PURPOSE BUT IF THEY CAN SELL IT AS SUCH, THEY'LL FIND A STUDY THAT SAYS RHOADE ISLAND IS BIGGER THAN ALASKA TO PROVE IT. THERE IS ZERO INVESTMENT IN CLOMID FOR THE PURPOSE OF RESTORING HPTA AND THIS STUDY IS HARDLY A BIG EXPENSE.

Again you are incorrect. A drug cannot be sold unless it has received FDA approval. This means the drug company has to show that
A. The drug is effective at treating medical issue in question (raising test in this case)
B. The side effects inccured by the usage of the drug are minimal

The average cost to bring a drug through the FDA for approval is around a billion dollars. The trans isomer of clomid, (normal clomid is both cis and trans) is currently in phase III trials. If you read the preliminary data from the phase I and II trials you will see that the response to this method has been overwhelmingly positive. So in reality there is an incredible amount of money invested in the idea that clomid can effectively restore test levels.

 

[needtogetaas]

For someone that has been in the game for so long I feel you are totally ignoring the positive evidence. I have never said the original study post at the beginning of this thread was the end all be all. In 2003 Columbia University published an article summarizing their study on the use of Clomid at 25mg/day to increase test levels. Pasted below is the pertinent information.

The Columbia study evaluated the use of clomiphene citrate tablets in 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism, which was defined as a serum testosterone level < 300 ng/dl. Each patient received a daily dose of 25 mg of clomiphene citrate. The average patient age was 39 years, with 12 over age 40. The average pretreatment testosterone level was 247.6 ng/dl. All patients received the drug for at least three months; the entire group was followed for 1 year.

By the first follow-up visit, which occurred between four and six weeks of the start of therapy, the average testosterone level rose to 610 ng/dl, an increase of 146 percent compared with baseline. This response was seen in all patients regardless of age.
No patients reported any of the known side effects of clomiphene citrate, such as hot flashes, visual disturbances, or headaches. “In fact, most patients reported improvements in overall well-being, sex drive, physical strength, and mood on follow-up visit interviews. Some experienced these changes in as little as three months of therapy,” points out Dr. Fisch.


Perhaps you can clarify why the findings by doctors at Columbia university directly conflict with your claim that a dose of 25mg/day will actually make the situation worse.





Again you are incorrect. A drug cannot be sold unless it has received FDA approval. This means the drug company has to show that
A. The drug is effective at treating medical issue in question (raising test in this case)
B. The side effects inccured by the usage of the drug are minimal

The average cost to bring a drug through the FDA for approval is around a billion dollars. The trans isomer of clomid, (normal clomid is both cis and trans) is currently in phase III trials. If you read the preliminary data from the phase I and II trials you will see that the response to this method has been overwhelmingly positive. So in reality there is an incredible amount of money invested in the idea that clomid can effectively restore test levels.

And every med site and University across the world has also listed is shitty sides. They are 100% real and they happen more often then they don't.

So even if clomid works which I myself never said it didn'. It still sucks big balls in my book.

 

[needtogetaas]

Again you are incorrect. A drug cannot be sold unless it has received FDA approval. This means the drug company has to show that
A. The drug is effective at treating medical issue in question (raising test in this case)
B. The side effects inccured by the usage of the drug are minimal

The average cost to bring a drug through the FDA for approval is around a billion dollars. The trans isomer of clomid, (normal clomid is both cis and trans) is currently in phase III trials. If you read the preliminary data from the phase I and II trials you will see that the response to this method has been overwhelmingly positive. So in reality there is an incredible amount of money invested in the idea that clomid can effectively restore test levels.[/QUOTE]









so what did the fda aprove the use of clomid for??????????????????

 

[alphatest]

And every med site and University across the world has also listed is shitty sides.

At 25mg/day? Every study I have read reports no sides in the test subjects. But if you post one up I'll quickly change my opinion.

 

[alphatest]

so what did the fda aprove the use of clomid for??????????????????

The trans isomer of clomid is currently in phase III clinical trials for the treatment of hypogonadal men. If approved it could be used in the place of androgel/test injections to help raise test levels.

 

[needtogetaas]

At 25mg/day? Every study I have read reports no sides in the test subjects. But if you post one up I'll quickly change my opinion.

UNIVERSITY OF NEEDTOGETAAS

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/8122268-post17.html

 

[needtogetaas]

The trans isomer of clomid is currently in phase III clinical trials for the treatment of hypogonadal men. If approved it could be used in the place of androgel/test injections to help raise test levels.

Lets keep in mind you tried to use that clomid was fda approved for pct in your argument. Thats you in blue.

Just because its in a faze or what ever dos not make it ok to out right say thats what its been approved for. Seems small to you, but its not to me. It was approved for women right now. Let us not forget this. It may never be approved for anything else. Lets not jump the gun my little buddy.


Again you are incorrect. A drug cannot be sold unless it has received FDA approval. This means the drug company has to show that
A. The drug is effective at treating medical issue in question (raising test in this case)
B. The side effects inccured by the usage of the drug are minimal

 

[alphatest]

UNIVERSITY OF NEEDTOGETAAS

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/8122268-post17.html

Do you offer an affordable masters



I would be curious to see the dosage the people complaining of severe side effects are running it at. My guess is almost all are higher then 25mg/day.

 

[alphatest]

Lets keep in mind you tried to use that clomid was fda approved for pct in your argument. Thats you in blue.

Just because its in a faze or what ever dos not make it ok to out right say thats what its been approved for. Seems small to you, but its not to me. It was approved for women right now. Let us not forget this. It may never be approved for anything else. Lets not jump the gun my little buddy.


Again you are incorrect. A drug cannot be sold unless it has received FDA approval. This means the drug company has to show that
A. The drug is effective at treating medical issue in question (raising test in this case)
B. The side effects inccured by the usage of the drug are minimal

I never said clomid was FDA approved for PCT, in fact I specifically said it was in phase III clinical trials. The reason I posted the above quote was simply to clarify for nelson the difficulty in getting drugs approved by the FDA for a specific cause. Bear in mind that NO drug is FDA approved for restoring the HTPA, and clomid is by far the CLOSEST one to gaining FDA acceptance out there.

 

[Manuel Hung]

WOW, this blew up pretty quick.

Thanks for the insight and advice on PCT. You guys are encylopedias. Even when you're arguing people are learning.

Thanks

 

[needtogetaas]

Do you offer an affordable masters



I would be curious to see the dosage the people complaining of severe side effects are running it at. My guess is almost all are higher then 25mg/day.

In fact I do bro. lololololol You can get the study book right here.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...book-today-get-3-free-months-plat-593034.html


As for the low dose clomid. Respectfully bro I have to say. I have been around this board and man. I have seen every cycle,every pct and every outcome. Yes the sides of any drug will get less and less the more you lower the dose. So will its effectiveness!!!

Also I assure you that even at 25mg ed (which I must say I do not see much of its pretty low) I have still seen just as man people having shitty feelings and other sides.


Keep in mind I never did say clomid will not work. My thing is that clomid alone
is not the best pct one can get. Its just not plan and simple. There is other products out there that can do the job and do it better. Or other products you can add that will make clomid even better.

If you ask me no one should be doing just 25mg of clomid alone for pct. No one should be doing any dose of clomid or nolva alone for pct. There is better.

 

[hehateme000]

I have to say a lot of sites reccomend 100mg of clomid when u should never have to go over 50, so a lot of people are getting sides from that. A lot of people read on sites and think its the best way just because they read it. Also, i think 25mg of clomid ADDED to Nelsons supps would be the safest thing you could do if you are in doubt of either two products.

Honestly, in my PCT i might include clomid. I have HCG, POST CYCLE, UNLEASHED and PP's Recovery Stack. I need to give those a try since they sound great and have gotten great reviews. But clomid for 25mg a day is what PP reccomended, and it makes sense at a low dose. Its cheap as hell too, so why not? Instead of makin a huge argument over studies that were done, just buy both. 25mg of clomid a day would be 700mg of clomid which is CHEAP to get.

25mg a day is not going to give anybody serious side effects, and if they honestly cant handle the side effects they are PUSSIES. Yes many people have had side effects taking clomid, but in nelsons words 75% of people have done it right. And theres still the chance that some of the 25% people took more than 25mg. Probably all of them did.

In conclusion: Buy Clomid. Buy PP's Recovery Stack. Buy UNLEASHED and POST CYCLE. Eat right. Train hard. Perfect

 

[needtogetaas]

I never said clomid was FDA approved for PCT, in fact I specifically said it was in phase III clinical trials. The reason I posted the above quote was simply to clarify for nelson the difficulty in getting drugs approved by the FDA for a specific cause. Bear in mind that NO drug is FDA approved for restoring the HTPA, and clomid is by far the CLOSEST one to gaining FDA acceptance out there.

MEH dhea is in the works to.

 

[Nelson Montana]

For someone that has been in the game for so long I feel you are totally ignoring the positive evidence. I have never said the original study post at the beginning of this thread was the end all be all. In 2003 Columbia University published an article summarizing their study on the use of Clomid at 25mg/day to increase test levels. Pasted below is the pertinent information.

The Columbia study evaluated the use of clomiphene citrate tablets in 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism, which was defined as a serum testosterone level < 300 ng/dl. Each patient received a daily dose of 25 mg of clomiphene citrate. The average patient age was 39 years, with 12 over age 40. The average pretreatment testosterone level was 247.6 ng/dl. All patients received the drug for at least three months; the entire group was followed for 1 year.

By the first follow-up visit, which occurred between four and six weeks of the start of therapy, the average testosterone level rose to 610 ng/dl, an increase of 146 percent compared with baseline. This response was seen in all patients regardless of age.
No patients reported any of the known side effects of clomiphene citrate, such as hot flashes, visual disturbances, or headaches. “In fact, most patients reported improvements in overall well-being, sex drive, physical strength, and mood on follow-up visit interviews. Some experienced these changes in as little as three months of therapy,” points out Dr. Fisch.


Perhaps you can clarify why the findings by doctors at Columbia university directly conflict with your claim that a dose of 25mg/day will actually make the situation worse.

.....................




I would have to know why they were hypogonadal and how long their T levels remained elevated after the cessation of treatment. Two little factors that seem to be ignored.



............................................................





Again you are incorrect. A drug cannot be sold unless it has received FDA approval.


............................



No, it is you who are incorrect. Clomid was not originally approved for that purpose. So just because it's an "approved" drug does not mean it will work for something it isn't designed for. So it can be sold but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Acting imperious does not make you correct. You want to try that bullshit, go here: www.bodybuilding.com




........................................................

This means the drug company has to show that
A. The drug is effective at treating medical issue in question (raising test in this case)
B. The side effects inccured by the usage of the drug are minimal

.........................


36 men isn't much. I did a test on the effects of avenacosides on 25 men and that was out of pocket. The AMA couldn;t splurge for more than THAT?



............................................

The average cost to bring a drug through the FDA for approval is around a billion dollars. The trans isomer of clomid, (normal clomid is both cis and trans) is currently in phase III trials. If you read the preliminary data from the phase I and II trials you will see that the response to this method has been overwhelmingly positive. So in reality there is an incredible amount of money invested in the idea that clomid can effectively restore test levels.

..............................

Then why isn't it used as HRT? You can ague all day that it works, and it does in some people. But in others, it's a disaster. (Kinda like leeches). There are better ways. You can ignore them if you like, but they exist.

..

..

 

[Pat_McCrotch]

..........

 

[perryscoon]

Nelson instead of bashing clomid all the time why don't you market your product to be used WITH clomid. You are excluding a very large portion of your potential customer base by telling everyone not to use clomid. The people that use and like clomid will be turned off by this and won't consider your products.

If I were you I would start marketing your PCT products as something to be used in conjunction with clomid(or nolva) during PCT OR by themselves. That way you get the clomid customer base as well.

Just a thought since I like to use both(clomid & PP products).

 

[hehateme000]

Nelson instead of bashing clomid all the time why don't you market your product to be used WITH clomid. You are excluding a very large portion of your potential customer base by telling everyone not to use clomid. The people that use and like clomid will be turned off by this and won't consider your products.

If I were you I would start marketing your PCT products as something to be used in conjunction with clomid(or nolva) during PCT OR by themselves. That way you get the clomid customer base as well.

Just a thought since I like to use both(clomid & PP products).

agree----exactly what i said^^^

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson instead of bashing clomid all the time why don't you market your product to be used WITH clomid. You are excluding a very large portion of your potential customer base by telling everyone not to use clomid. The people that use and like clomid will be turned off by this and won't consider your products.

If I were you I would start marketing your PCT products as something to be used in conjunction with clomid(or nolva) during PCT OR by themselves. That way you get the clomid customer base as well.

Just a thought since I like to use both(clomid & PP products).

Good point and I've actually said just that. Even if Clomid works for you, POST CYCLE will help in other areas. My positon on clomid is simply one of edification. I make no money from people not taking clomid. I'm just trying to get a point accros that for many people it's bad news. I would sway newbies from trying it, but if you've used it in the past and like it, by all means stick with it until it doesn;t work. And adding the natty supps will only help.

 

[*Swifto*]

Clomid should be a part of almost every PCT IMHO. Its one of, if not the most effective SERM us steroid users have to raise T, post cycle.

I've been on the boards for a while and sides associated with Clomid's use, tend to be on dosages above 50-100mg/ED.

Clomid or/and Torm for PCT IMHO. Those two SERM's seem to be most active in the pituitary, moreso than Rolax and Nolva.

 

[alphatest]

No, it is you who are incorrect. Clomid was not originally approved for that purpose. So just because it's an "approved" drug does not mean it will work for something it isn't designed for. So it can be sold but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Acting imperious does not make you correct. You want to try that bullshit, go here: www.bodybuilding.com

I never said clomid was approved for the purpose of raising test in men. Again I specifically stated that it was in Phase III clinical trials, and all the preliminary data has pointed towards it being very successful at serving this purpose. If it passes FDA approval, which it looks like it will then it WILL be approved for this treatment. You are right, acting imperious doesn't make me correct, rather it is the clinical data that validates my point something you have not been very forthcoming with. But it is up to the readers of this board to judge which side has more merit.

36 men isn't much. I did a test on the effects of avenacosides on 25 men and that was out of pocket. The AMA couldn;t splurge for more than THAT?

Its a preliminary study. The current one is trying to get 200 individuals to replicate the results in a larger population. In case you are unaware, clinical studies that involve humans taking drugs are incredibly expensive. You testing the effects avenacosides on 25 individuals is NOT at all comparable to an NIH funded drug study in terms of cost.

Then why isn't it used as HRT? You can ague all day that it works, and it does in some people. But in others, it's a disaster. (Kinda like leeches). There are better ways. You can ignore them if you like, but they exist.

Clomid is being used by certain urologists as a HRT. The problem is doctors are generally don't want to condone the use of drugs for purposes that they are not approved for, as this can easily result in a malpractice suit. This is why it is currently going through FDA trials again.

Yes Nelson, clomid is just like leeches I never said there were not other methods of PCT, nor have I ever stated that these methods are not effective. It is you who chooses to ignore all the promising clinical data on clomid as an effective PCT. You have no counter except for your anecdotal evidence and your misreading and slandering of the current studies out there.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I never said clomid was approved for the purpose of raising test in men. Again I specifically stated that it was in Phase III clinical trials, and all the preliminary data has pointed towards it being very successful at serving this purpose. If it passes FDA approval, which it looks like it will then it WILL be approved for this treatment. You are right, acting imperious doesn't make me correct, rather it is the clinical data that validates my point something you have not been very forthcoming with. But it is up to the readers of this board to judge which side has more merit.




Its a preliminary study. The current one is trying to get 200 individuals to replicate the results in a larger population. In case you are unaware, clinical studies that involve humans taking drugs are incredibly expensive. You testing the effects avenacosides on 25 individuals is NOT at all comparable to an NIH funded drug study in terms of cost.




Clomid is being used by certain urologists as a HRT. The problem is doctors are generally don't want to condone the use of drugs for purposes that they are not approved for, as this can easily result in a malpractice suit. This is why it is currently going through FDA trials again.

Yes Nelson, clomid is just like leeches I never said there were not other methods of PCT, nor have I ever stated that these methods are not effective. It is you who chooses to ignore all the promising clinical data on clomid as an effective PCT. You have no counter except for your anecdotal evidence and your misreading and slandering of the current studies out there.

There are so many things wrong with your argument but I'm not going to address them all because they're operating on semantics as opposed to details . You also contradict yourself. That, combined with expressions like "in case you're unaware" reeks of "snot nosed know it all message board kid."

I've been in this field for over 25 years and have been writing professionally, conducting seminars and clinics and working in research and development in the industry for over 10 years. So you can roll your eyes all you want, I know what I'm talking about. If you bothered to listen as opposed to coming on the site and trying to find fault, you know that and maybe you'd learn something in the process. I'm all for debate, but it looks as if you're just looking to start shit. Who are you anyway?