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I'm discouraged with 5x5 mad cow. Please help!

gymrat surfer

New member
So i've been working out consistently on 5X5 mad cow intermediate for a little under a year and I am starting to stall on a lot of exercises. Worst part is, I have gone through 2 deloading phases and can't break any plateaus. I use fractional plates with minimal increases as well. 1 example of me stalling is I could only bench 280 for 4 reps. can't get that 5th rep in after 2 deluding phases. This is the same case in a lot of other exercises.

So with out getting into specifics about the workout routine. Here is what I think I am lacking... DIET DIET DIET

Reality is, I have a high demanding job as a commodities broker and very hard to commit to eating the way I need to eat. I'll have 2-3 shakes a day, 8 egg whites in morning with 2 trader joe packets of oatmeal. 2 chicken cutlets and a rib eye steak at night. (1 example). I'll have one of those super green food drinks for veggies.

So basically, my guess is that I am probably not taking in the calories that I need which is probably holding me back. I am also on HRT test 250MG per week, and using peptides (ipamorelin / CJC 1295 mod)

So my question is...
If I am not willing to commit to eating tons of food all day due to my high demanding job, am I doing the wrong work out routine and should consider starting a new program?

In a perfect world, i would love to get huge and strong. Being strong is most important to me. But I am not willing to eat 6 full meals a day. No way I could pull it off. I would love to, but bodybuilding won't pay the bills. Only so much time in a day.

I know i'm making excuses but guess we all have priorities in life and have to allocate our time according to what works best for us and whats most important for us.

I train mon/wed/fri

Appreciate and advice you can give me. Thanks for hanging in on this long winded rant...
 
I have never seen anyone able to complete more than 2 or 3 consecutive cycles of Madcow Intermediate without taking a break. That is a maximum of approximately 30-36 weeks. The weights start to increase too fast for anyone to recover adequately. After start stalling in a cycle, you are supposed to enter your current 5RM into the spreadsheet and start over at Week 1, building up to hit your current 5RM in Week 4. If you are in dire need of recovery, you can delay hitting your 5RM until Week 6, which should help you push through plateaus.

But remember, this is an intermediate program. It will only work as long as you are an intermediate lifter. Eventually you are going to need to move to an advanced program, since you won't be able to recover fast enough. Before jumping to the conclusion that you are an advanced lifter, though, do a Google search for "EXRX weightlifting standards" and make sure you actually are. If you jump to an advanced program too early, you are leaving a lot of potential gains on the table. It is quite possible you jumped to an intermediate program before you were ready, too.

We also need a lot more information in order to give you substantive advice. What are your stats? What is your bodyweight? How much can you squat, deadlift, bench press, press, row? How much sleep do you get a night?

Have you tried incorporating GOMAD (gallon of whole milk a day) into your training regimen? It is impossible for me to eat enough due to certain intestinal issues I have, so I use GOMAD to help me gain mass. I have gained 23 lbs in the last 4 months alone.
 
So i've been working out consistently on 5X5 mad cow intermediate for a little under a year and I am starting to stall on a lot of exercises. Worst part is, I have gone through 2 deloading phases and can't break any plateaus. I use fractional plates with minimal increases as well. 1 example of me stalling is I could only bench 280 for 4 reps. can't get that 5th rep in after 2 deluding phases. This is the same case in a lot of other exercises.

You're saying on bench you did something very near to:

W1M 245x5
W1F 255x3
W2M 255x5
W2F 265x3
W3M 265x5
W3F 275x3
W4M 275x5
W4F 280x3
W5M 280x4<---FAIL
W5F ??????

And then just immediately restarted and did the exact same thing over a second time, which resulted in the exact same thing? If so, have you tried any other approaches to crossing that plateau? For example, trying 280x5 again for up to two more Mondays in a row?

And all of your lifts are plateaued in the same fashion? If so, that's quite odd. Typically if someone plateaus on everything, there's some other problem/factor at play, regardless what program they are following--so it may be the eating or sleeping or something like that, as you suggested.

Give us a bit more info on how much your lifting, which lifts you're doing, which lifts have plateaued, etc.

Also how is your body generally feeling? Are you constantly run down? Do you start to really drag at the middle/end of your workouts? Anything along those lines? Or are you getting through the workouts no problem, just not hitting your targets?
 
milk + whey protein will help put on mass. you can get some good protein bars as well. you just need to find a way that works for you to get in cals. when i was younger and working in a crazy hectic office we kept really good whole wheat bread around and dipped it in olive oil and then drank protein shakes.. worked for us

there are lots of ways to do it just need to figure out what will work for you.

also i think you should change up your routine a bit or go back down in weight some and get back to where you are now. just some ideas.
 
Thanks for all the great feed back everyone! So to answer some questions...

Deloading
So after i fail 2 weeks in a row, thats when I begin my deloading, I cut back 15 lbs, then do 2 1/2 lb increases, giving me 6 weeks to catch up. Then, if I fail again after 2 week shot, I cut back 15lbs again giving my self 12 weeks at 1.5 increases.

Lifts still progressing (5 rep max/work set) FYI ( I do the 12.5% increase of 4 sets to work set)
squat - 290 x 5
Rows - 185 x 5 (about to stall, can feel it coming)
Deadlifts - 300 x 5
Skull crushers - 80 x 5

Failed lifts - on work sets
Bench - 280 x 4 (can't get that 5th rep)
Press - 175 x 4
Chins - 50 x 4
Sit-ups - 50 x 10
Biceps - 97 x 6

So overall, I'm about even but some lifts that are still progressing are about to stall within next couple of weeks.

As far as stats, I am 225lbs, 18% body fat, 5'11"
Sleep is pretty good over all, although some nights I don't sleep well if I am stressed over personal issues.

Also, to really open up and be honest, (is this therapy now?, haha) I have been abusing amphetamines (aderall) to allow me to work the crazy hours I do AND DO NOT WANT TO BE DEPENDENT ON THAT. Tried quitting several times, but then I get so groggy and tired that I am not as alert and focused, tired, and workouts are not as effective. Would love advice on how to quit.

Back to eating:
Would love suggestions or a sample of what I should be eating throughout the day. But the key is, it has to be effortless and taste real good. I am so dam picky. I drive my wife nuts, haha. My breakfast is solid and could eat that everyday Infiniti. As for chicken breasts, I gag unless they are breaded with whole wheat crumbs, which I could also eat a ton of those. Don't mind Costco fillets. And if your saying I could drink more shakes with adding milk, maybe have a slice of the eizel bread. I'll might be on to something. So definitely need a better diet plan. Protien I use by the way is Casien by optimum nutrition (at night), then I have pro-max (ON) during day, then after workout I have 2-1-1 recovery with hydro-whey (ON).

As far as my workouts, before I'll take akg-l-Arginine, ctg-6 (creatine,glutimine,taurine) and half a scoop of jacked. I do get tired towards end of workouts ESPECIALLY FRIDAYS with doing 6 sets and more ancillaries.

One more addiction to add:(
I have my medical card, so I smoke pot almost every night to relax me from stressing myself out through the day. So wonder if that is hurting me too. Also, even though I am on HRT, my recent blood work showed my total test at 458 ng/dl. Estrogen at 34, and free test at 108.5, so thought I would share that to.

Hope that answers all your questions.

And gladiator... You look great! Would love to have a bod like yours one of these days. Haha.
 
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well im glad you mentioned the adderall. Bro you need to make it priority #1 to get off that. Cmon you know you have to you just need to figure out a way that will work for you.

Not the biggest fan of pot either but first I would kill the adderall habit.

It is going to be very hard for you to recover from tough taxing workouts if you are taxing your body with adderal and yo-yo ing back and forth with stims and pot. id drop the weight back a lot. focus on getting off the chems and then hit the weights hard.

plenty of people WEAKER than yourself have kicked WORSE habits than this so you can do it. If you can squat 290x5 I know you are tough enough to get off it!

Good Luck!
 
A few thoughts...

First, as a preliminary matter, your deloads are not sufficiently deloading you in my opinion. The standard deload for the intermediate madcow program is to 90% and other programs often call for an 80% deload. Your deload is only to about 95% of your PRs. It would be better to drop to 90% or even 80% and then work your way back up in larger increments until you get to, or close to, your current maxes. From there its okay to use the fractional plates. This may or may not be "causing" your trouble, but it almost certainly isn't helping.

With any failure to progress there is generally two possibilities: insufficient recovery or insufficient stimulus. As you're probably well aware, your bench is pretty much leagues ahead of certainly all your lower body lifts, but I'd even venture to say all of your other lifts period, with the one exception of the very related overhead press, which is at a commensurate level. As you probably know, as your individual lifts become more advanced, progress becomes harder to come by.

If you had simply told me your lifts, I could've easily guessed which ones would stall first just based on your level of advancement with each of them. The only place I probably would've guessed wrong is with your rows. For some reason your horizontal pressing/pulling is way out of wack. Ideally, you want to be pulling horizontally (rowing) the same, or nearly the same weight as you are benching. It is particularly odd because your vertical pulling is solid and matches your vertical pushing. You are 225 lbs doing 4 chins with 50 pounds strapped to you, which means your lats are actually quite strong. If I had to guess about the cause of the weak rowing, I'd say it probably has to do with lower back strength. I notice that trainees are often limited in the amount they can 90 degree row by how much they can deadlift.

So getting back to the training end of things, there are several possibilities (besides the insufficient deloads). You could be advanced to the point on bench that you simply can't make weekly gains anymore. It could be because you are benching so heavy twice a week that you can't properly recover in time for the following Monday workout. Conversely, and more likely imo, as an advanced bencher, you may require more training stimulus to make gains. It might be worth switching over to doing a advanced 5x5 program for your bench. Examples of this are the madcow advanced or the texas method (very similar). This would be 5x5 straight sets on Monday with about 90% of 275, ie your 5RM, and on Friday building up to a top triple. The other lifts you should carry on as usual if you take this route.

The other main possibility is that your recovery is not good enough. Ideally you should be consuming 3000+ calories a day, with a large (ideally something like 30%+) portion being from protein. You should be getting 8-10 hours of sleep. You should be drinking ~1 gallon of water a day. Any of these things you aren't doing will cut into your recovery ability.

There's something screwy with your test. 250 mg/week is quite high for a TRT dose and your total test should be significantly higher at that dose than what yours currently is (something more like 2-3x as high). Did you just recently start it? Is it pharmaceutical grade or otherwise legit? At the same time both your total and free test are around the mid range so this isn't likely holding you back.

Regarding the adderall, that may or may not be adversely affecting your workouts. Some people say it actually helps, other people say it hurts. The weed? Perhaps it is effecting you, though not likely unless you are smoking before your workout or something else foolish along those lines.

One other question. When you say you keep getting stuck at 280, do you notice yourself getting stronger at all? In other words, do you keep getting closer and closer to repping the 5th rep, but just cant seem to hit it within 2 weeks? Or are you pretty much just BARELY getting the 4th one every time. I ask because it may also just be a mental thing.

I'll leave it at that for now since I just wrote a short novel...
 
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well im glad you mentioned the adderall. Bro you need to make it priority #1 to get off that.

I agree with you 100%! Do you have any suggestions to doing this? What can I do to have enough energy for working all day (which is mentally exhausting) and also having enough energy for a solid work out?
 
First, as a preliminary matter, your deloads are not sufficiently deloading you in my opinion. The standard deload for the intermediate madcow program is to 90% and other programs often call for an 80% deload.

seems like I would be starting from scratch again, almost at the bar if I was to drop 90% from 280lbs. So what do you mean by 90%? I'm assuming I am misunderstanding this. Thanks.

Your deload is only to about 95% of your PRs. It would be better to drop to 90% or even 80% and then work your way back up in larger increments until you get to, or close to, your current maxes. From there its okay to use the fractional plates.

So if this was my last failure point via example below. How would you apply your quote above to this situation?


Example of Mondays 5x5,failing before deloading again on chest
165
190
215
245
277.5 (using 1.5lb increases towards 280)




For some reason your horizontal pressing/pulling is way out of wack. Ideally, you want to be pulling horizontally (rowing) the same, or nearly the same weight as you are benching.

I feel you on this one! Unfortunately, the only way I can keep making weight on my rows, is if I jerk my body to help me lift it. Because I believe in strict form, I am only allowing myself to row from the correct muscles used.

You are 225 lbs doing 4 rows with 50 pounds strapped to you
Those are Chin ups I'm doing


It might be worth switching over to doing a advanced 5x5 program for your bench.

You think I should give myself a fair deloading phaze done the proper way before doing advanced on this 1 lift? Would love the guidelines to how to properly deload.

Also, do you think its important to keep squatting 3 times a week?

And, do you think any of the sets should be adjusted, reps?


The other main possibility is that your recovery is not good enough. Ideally you should be consuming 3000+ calories a day, with a large (ideally something like 30%+) portion being from protein. You should be getting 8-10 hours of sleep. You should be drinking ~1 gallon of water a day. Any of these things you aren't doing will cut into your recovery ability.

AMEN! Probably the biggest thing holding me back right now! I've been doing some major thinking about the diet. Please tell me if this diet would be sufficient via example below...


Meal 1:
8 egg whites (1 yolk)
2 trader joe flax oatmeal packets

Meal 2:
Pro-max optimum nutrition shake
With Milk

Meal 3:
2 chicken breasts with whole wheat bread crumbs
(chicken cutlets)
Super greens veggie drink (green vibrance)


Meal 4:
Post Workout Shake
1 scoop Hydro-whey (optimum nutrition)
2 scoop 2-1-1 recovery (optimum nutrition)

Meal 5:
8oz Filet Mignon (cycled with veal chop, huge rib eye, lamb chops)
2 slices of ezekiel bread (sprouted whole wheat)

Meal 6:
2 scoops of Cassien
Milk (Optimum nutrition)




There's something screwy with your test. 250 mg/week is quite high for a TRT dose and your total test should be significantly higher at that dose than what yours currently is (something more like 2-3x as high). Did you just recently start it? Is it pharmaceutical grade or otherwise legit? At the same time both your total and free test are around the mid range so this isn't likely holding you back.

I have been on my TRT dose for about 6-8 months straight. Obviously won't mention source but was wondering if it was underdosed or if it was just my body. I do take arimason 12.5 every 3rd day. Would like to do 250iu HCG twice a week, but can't find a domestic source:( I was wondering if I should up the test, wait a month and get another blood test to see where my total test/free test fall again and if it's in range, maintain that or if to high, lower it again. What are your thought?


One other question. When you say you keep getting stuck at 280, do you notice yourself getting stronger at all? In other words, do you keep getting closer and closer to repping the 5th rep, but just cant seem to hit it within 2 weeks? Or are you pretty much just BARELY getting the 4th one every time. I ask because it may also just be a mental thing.

With the 1.5lb increases, I actually stall before the 280, like 277.5. Pretty weird, huh?

Thanks for your time and effort to helping me break through this wall. Appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out here:)
 
seems like I would be starting from scratch again, almost at the bar if I was to drop 90% from 280lbs. So what do you mean by 90%? I'm assuming I am misunderstanding this. Thanks.
You think I should give myself a fair deloading phaze done the proper way before doing advanced on this 1 lift? Would love the guidelines to how to properly deload.

By 90%, I don't mean reduce the weight by 90%, I mean reduce it TO 90% of whatever number you got up to. Or in other words, reduce by 10%. So for you, let's say your 5 rep max is about 275. If you wanted to reboot a lift, you'd start it at 275*.9=247.5, but you can round this off. Then increase back to 275 by week 4 in roughly even increments.

If I were you, I'd probably structure it like this (with the Friday workout being whatever next Monday is set to be but for 3 reps only, as before):
W1M: 245x5
W2M: 255x5
W3M: 265x5
W4M: 275x5 (roughly tying your old PR)
W5M: 276.5x5 (now from this point on, you can use the microplate jumps if you like.
W6M: 278x5 and so on

Not saying you necessarily have to increase by only 1.5 pounds. You'll have to go by feel. After completing your W4 workout, you can decide what's feasible. Maybe the 275x5 feels super easy, then you might decide to go up by 5 lbs (or somewhere in between 1.5 and 5 if you can). I'd say as an upper limit, no more than 5 lbs increases though.

Also, even if and when you hit failure, I'd encourage you to get a competent spotter and do as much of a 5th rep as you can get (if you have anything at all left after the 4th rep). Have the spotter only help just barely enough as might be necessary to get the bar back up. Don't count that as a "completed rep," but it's a good way to gauge if you are getting stronger from week to week if, for example, one week you get about half of the 5th rep, and the next week you get about 3/4 of the rep, etc.

As I said earlier, if you somehow end up hitting that same 280x4 number, or worse, and you don't think its a nontraining related issue, then it's probably time to change your routine up. If you like the 5x5 style, you might first try doing an "advanced" routine with straight sets on Monday ONLY for your bench. Otherwise, since you're interested in strength, 5/3/1 might be worth giving a shot.

Those are Chin ups I'm doing

My bad, typo, I meant to write given your chin strength, your rows are surprisingly weak.

Also, do you think its important to keep squatting 3 times a week?

And, do you think any of the sets should be adjusted, reps?

I think it depends on your goals. You said earlier you were interested primarily in strength. If full body strength is what you're after then squatting 3x a week is a good way to do it. It's also obviously a good overall mass builder. Is it absolutely essential? No. Are squats good? Yes. Keep in mind that although you are squatting 3x a week, the overall weekly volume is really not that high. If you were doing a bodypart split for example, you'd probably doing 10-20 leg work sets. In the 5x5 intermediate realistically you're only doing maybe 4 (top 2 on Monday and friday). Everything else is really a warmup, and in the case of the Wednesday squatting, more like active recovery/motor pathway work.

If you mean any of the sets/reps adjusted on bench, then maybe perhaps, depending on how the deload goes, if you choose to go that route with it. If not, there's different things you can try...3x5, 5x3, 5x5, max effort and speed work M/F split, switching to floor/3 board press or something along those lines, etc etc. Really it's up to you. As to the other lifts, if you are still making nice progress using this routine, then I say if it ain't broke then don't fix it.

If I recall, you've been doing this routine a while. So I'm guessing you've had major gains on your big three over that period. How many other people do you know doing other routines who add 50+ pounds to their lifts over a period of lifts (assuming they aren't complete beginners)? As many people can attest to, these 5x5 high frequency programs do work well.

AMEN! Probably the biggest thing holding me back right now! I've been doing some major thinking about the diet. Please tell me if this diet would be sufficient via example below...


Meal 1:
8 egg whites (1 yolk)
2 trader joe flax oatmeal packets

Meal 2:
Pro-max optimum nutrition shake
With Milk

Meal 3:
2 chicken breasts with whole wheat bread crumbs
(chicken cutlets)
Super greens veggie drink (green vibrance)


Meal 4:
Post Workout Shake
1 scoop Hydro-whey (optimum nutrition)
2 scoop 2-1-1 recovery (optimum nutrition)

Meal 5:
8oz Filet Mignon (cycled with veal chop, huge rib eye, lamb chops)
2 slices of ezekiel bread (sprouted whole wheat)

Meal 6:
2 scoops of Cassien
Milk (Optimum nutrition)


I wouldn't consider myself to be any sort of expert in the dietary arena. Hopefully some of these other guys, like maybe EM, will chime in here. That said, assuming this ends up to be 3000+ calories, it looks decent enough. Obviously any time you can replace a shake with real food its better, but it looks like you've probably got enough protein there, and I doubt eating a similar diet every day would hold you back in any way from strength gains.

I have been on my TRT dose for about 6-8 months straight. Obviously won't mention source but was wondering if it was underdosed or if it was just my body. I do take arimason 12.5 every 3rd day. Would like to do 250iu HCG twice a week, but can't find a domestic source:( I was wondering if I should up the test, wait a month and get another blood test to see where my total test/free test fall again and if it's in range, maintain that or if to high, lower it again. What are your thought?

Again, I'm not an expert by any stretch here (so maybe others will chime in). Your test may be under-dosed. Normal range total test range is roughly 250 - 1100 ng/dL, and normal free test is roughly 35 - 155 pg/mL. So as I said before, your current values on TRT place you in the middle(ish) of that range. With a 250mg/week dose, your total T should be well up above 1000, unless you took the blood test quite a few days from an injection, in which case those levels would make sense. If that's the case then you might consider pinning half as much 2x a week if you aren't already to keep thin blood levels more stable. And obviously, if that's the case then there's no problem with the gear.

As to whether you should increase/decrease the dose, I'd say that's up to you. Depends on how you feel with what you're currently doing vs how you'd like to feel how much muscle you're looking to gain etc. The answer to this will depend a lot on how far from your last pin that blood test was and on how frequently you're pinning per week. That said, 250 is considered quite high for a TRT dose.

Hope that's helpful.
 
I agree with you 100%! Do you have any suggestions to doing this? What can I do to have enough energy for working all day (which is mentally exhausting) and also having enough energy for a solid work out?

Depends how much, what form, and how you're taking it. If by "abusing" you just mean you're taking 1 adderall XR 20mg per day, then that's one thing. If, on the other hand, you're putting 60mg up your nose then that's a bit different.

If you want to ween off of it, the easiest way is to keep taking it but slowly reduce the dosage. Down 30-20-10-5 something like that if possible, maybe reducing once every 5-7 days if possible (assuming you have access to different mg pills and/or tabs instead of caps).
 
Its stopped working, the solution is relatively simple... just analyse your diet and training; you either need more food (likely cause if you've gained alot of bodyweight) or you need to change the training, the 5x5 doesnt work forever and personally I hate it. Which ever solution you choose I would start by doing a deload week.
 
Meal 1:
8 egg whites (1 yolk) <--- 5 large eggs, 6 fl oz egg whites
2 trader joe flax oatmeal packets <--- just regular oatmeal here
+ a banana

Meal 2:
Pro-max optimum nutrition shake
With (whole) Milk

Meal 3:
2 chicken breasts with whole wheat bread crumbs <-- use the ezekiel bread here and make it a chicken+salad sandwich
Super greens veggie drink (green vibrance) <--- spinnach leaves, peppers/cucumber

Meal 4:
Post Workout Shake
1 scoop Hydro-whey (optimum nutrition)
2 scoop 2-1-1 recovery (optimum nutrition) <-- just do 2 scoops any protein powder in 1% or skimmed milk+ 1 banana + 1 apple

Meal 5:
8oz Filet Mignon (cycled with veal chop, huge rib eye, lamb chops)
2 slices of ezekiel bread (sprouted whole wheat) <-- rice or potatoes instead of bread
get some green veggies in here, broccoli is good


Meal 6:
2 scoops of Cassien
Milk (Optimum nutrition) <-- personally I would cut out the shake and do hard boiled eggs instead but if yuo want then keep the shake for now and see how you go. Shakes are more expensive than eggs though...

heres some adjustments I would personally make without adding lots of meals.

Im presuming you dont gain fat easily since your drinking milk and wanting to gain weight...

if you start getting fat I would drop the milk except for post w/o and stop using bread. You can make up for the loss of protein with other foods and there are much better sources of fat than milk (I use alot of extra virgin olive oil and almonds) and bread is a starch that offers no nutritional benefit as far as vitamins/minerals go, it can also cause bloating.
 
In addition to your current diet, order a large pizza every night and drizzle it with olive oil. Do not get up until you finish it. Additionally, ingest a Hershey bar every 1-2 hours without fail.

I'm not a hard gainer and have never had to resort to this, but if I was I'd def. give it a try.
 
In addition to your current diet, order a large pizza every night and drizzle it with olive oil. Do not get up until you finish it. Additionally, ingest a Hershey bar every 1-2 hours without fail.

I'm not a hard gainer and have never had to resort to this, but if I was I'd def. give it a try.

There is no reason he would need to resort to eating like that. He may need 4000kcal per day to grow if he is an extreme hardgainer but even then that amount is pretty easy to eat in clean food.

Maybe resort to dave tate's dirty bulking article when, like he did, you need 8000+ kcal per day.

I see in the teen section of BB.com so many teens dirty bulking in order to hit their 3500kcal per day bulking macro's lmao. It's just an excuse not to eat clean IMO. Using fast food is an unhealthy and inefficient way to do it when you just need <4000kcal IMO. Having a cheat meal once a week or maybe even once every 4 days is one thing and understandable if you stay lean but everyday is not the way to do it. The only big name BBer I have ever heard of eating like that was Dave Palumbo who said he regretted doing so.
 
Depends how much, what form, and how you're taking it. If by "abusing" you just mean you're taking 1 adderall XR 20mg per day, then that's one thing. If, on the other hand, you're putting 60mg up your nose then that's a bit different.

If you want to ween off of it, the easiest way is to keep taking it but slowly reduce the dosage. Down 30-20-10-5 something like that if possible, maybe reducing once every 5-7 days if possible (assuming you have access to different mg pills and/or tabs instead of caps).

I am taking 30mgs of amphetamine salts (not XR). I like your idea of weaning off. I'll shoot for that. (not sniffing that stuff, haha. Just swallowing it.)
 
I mean reduce it TO 90% of whatever number you got up to.
Or in other words, reduce by 10%. Ok. Got it. Thanks!


If I were you, I'd probably structure it like this (with the Friday workout being whatever next Monday is set to be but for 3 reps only, as before):
W1M: 245x5
W2M: 255x5
W3M: 265x5
W4M: 275x5 (roughly tying your old PR)
W5M: 276.5x5 (now from this point on, you can use the microplate jumps if you like.
W6M: 278x5 and so on

If I feel like I am not getting stronger although making weight on my way back up, is it o.k. to prolong it to 6-8 weeks to get back and just go with how i feel as far as making increases anywhere from 1.5lbs up to 5lbs? very helpful example!



Also, even if and when you hit failure, I'd encourage you to get a competent spotter and do as much of a 5th rep as you can get (if you have anything at all left after the 4th rep).

When I bench, I do it in the squat rack so I feel comfortable going to failure as all I have to do is drop my chest and it hits the pins. To be honest, i hate asking for spots cause then they do the work for me, grab the bar, or sweat drips in my face. Amazing how so many people don't know how to spot in my gym. Wish there was a golds:( (sorry for rant), haha.


As I said earlier, if you somehow end up hitting that same 280x4 number, or worse, and you don't think its a nontraining related issue, then it's probably time to change your routine up. If you like the 5x5 style, you might first try doing an "advanced" routine with straight sets on Monday ONLY for your bench.

I like your idea that after totally failing on one exercise how I could integrate a hybrid of the advanced & intermediate. You think that's a good way to transition into the program? Just do advanced for the lifts that hit plateaus after deloading doesn't work anymore and continue intermediate on the other exercises?



I think it depends on your goals. You said earlier you were interested primarily in strength. If full body strength is what you're after then squatting 3x a week is a good way to do it. It's also obviously a good overall mass builder. Is it absolutely essential? No. Are squats good? Yes. Keep in mind that although you are squatting 3x a week, the overall weekly volume is really not that high. If you were doing a bodypart split for example, you'd probably doing 10-20 leg work sets. In the 5x5 intermediate realistically you're only doing maybe 4 (top 2 on Monday and friday). Everything else is really a warmup, and in the case of the Wednesday squatting, more like active recovery/motor pathway work.
Great point! I'll suck it up!


if you are still making nice progress using this routine, then I say if it ain't broke then don't fix it.
Great point again! I'll just stick with the program as outlined, follow your deloading instructions and then switch to advanced on the particular lifts that hit the plateau.


If I recall, you've been doing this routine a while. So I'm guessing you've had major gains on your big three over that period. How many other people do you know doing other routines who add 50+ pounds to their lifts over a period of lifts (assuming they aren't complete beginners)? As many people can attest to, these 5x5 high frequency programs do work well.
Another great point! You're on fire today! haha. I am proud of my gains for the minute amount of testosterone I'm on. Never lifted 275 easily before hand (except 5 years ago when I was on 1000mgs of test a week), however, i do miss doing shrugs, side delt raises, more bicep work, rear delts, but then again, 5X5 taught me it's meaningless.


With a 250mg/week dose, your total T should be well up above 1000, unless you took the blood test quite a few days from an injection, in which case those levels would make sense. If that's the case then you might consider pinning half as much 2x a week if you aren't already to keep thin blood levels more stable.
Interesting response. Because I take my shot every monday. And when I got this blood test, I took it on Friday. So I think i'll take your advice and shoot twice a week and split the dose. Then 1 month later, take a blood test again and then gauge from there...


250 is considered quite high for a TRT dose.
So let's say after splitting the dose and taking another blood test i'm still in mid range. Although 250mg is considered high, is the real result the total test levels and free test? Meaning, that if I upped it another 100mgs lets say, and my total test was under 1000 and free test was also within proper range, would that be something I could maintain long term and still be healthy? Obviously if I was over the levels, I would drop it too.


Hope that's helpful.
yes it was! Thanks again. Starting to gain some clarity here!
 
or you need to change the training, the 5x5 doesnt work forever and personally I hate it. Which ever solution you choose I would start by doing a deload week.
Interesting. Would love to hear from your perspective why you hate the 5X5. I'll admit, it is starting to get a bit boring but if I can make gains, I won't stop. What work out do you do and how would you compare your training program to the 5x5?
 


based on your recommendations, i adjusted the meal plan as follows. Didn't follow exactly everything you suggested, but made adjustments based on what your shared with me.

Meal 1:
6 eggs (4 yolk)
2 trader Joe flax oatmeal packets
Banana

Meal 2:
2 scoops Pro-max
Whole Milk
2 slices of Ezekiel bread

Meal 3:
2 chicken cutlets (whole wheat bread crumbs)
Spinach

PWO Shake:
1 scoop Hydro-whey (optimum nutrition)
2 scoop 2-1-1 recovery (optimum nutrition)
Banana & Apple

Meal 4 (non-workout days):
Pro-max optimum nutrition shake
Whole Milk
Berries (black/blue/raspberries)

Meal 5:
Filet Mignon
Asparagus
Yams

Meal 6:

2 scoops of Casein
Whole Milk
Almonds & Walnuts

AS for the bread. Are you saying there is no nutritional value in Ezekiel bread. Here are the ingredients in Ezekiel bread Sprouted wheat
Filtered water
Sprouted barley
Sprouted millet
Malted barley
Sprouted lentils
Sprouted soybeans
Sprouted spelt
Fresh yeast
Wheat gluten
Sea salt


As for the 2-1-1 recovery. Reason why I use 2 scoops of that is because it's more focused on carbohydrates then protien. So i have to add 1 scoop of hydro to get 50 grams of protien altogether.
 


based on your recommendations, i adjusted the meal plan as follows. Didn't follow exactly everything you suggested, but made adjustments based on what your shared with me.

Meal 1:
6 eggs (4 yolk) <-- that is only aprox 32g protein, the serving I suggested was 50g
2 trader Joe flax oatmeal packets <-- the reason I suggested regular oats is because Im guessing this is flax seeds and contains high fat... you already have a serving of healthy fats in the egg yolkes though.
Banana

Meal 2:
2 scoops Pro-max
Whole Milk
2 slices of Ezekiel bread <-- I suggested using the bread in the other meal to make a sandwich with spinnach leaves because its an easy way to get in a good meal without much fuss.

Meal 3:
2 chicken cutlets (whole wheat bread crumbs)
Spinach <-- this meal has no source of fat and Im guessing very low carb content since your just using bread crumbs... either that or its a packeted processed piece of bread crumbed chicken from the frozen food section. Either way its not great imo. This is a pre workout meal - you need quality carbs

PWO Shake:
1 scoop Hydro-whey (optimum nutrition)
2 scoop 2-1-1 recovery (optimum nutrition) <-- doesnt matter what brand you use, but if the protein powder contains lots of carbs then there may be no need for additional fruit.
Banana & Apple

Meal 4 (non-workout days):
Pro-max optimum nutrition shake
Whole Milk
Berries (black/blue/raspberries) <-- good idea

Meal 5:
Filet Mignon
Asparagus
Yams

Meal 6:
2 scoops of Casein
Whole Milk
Almonds & Walnuts <-- watch out for over eating on fats with milk and nuts in the same meal. Nuts can be very dense in fats

AS for the bread. Are you saying there is no nutritional value in Ezekiel bread. Im saying its easy to find a source of carbs that provides more vitamins and minerals (fruit) and there are sources that provide similar nutrition without the bloating effect of bread. Use it if you want, you may have no problem with bloating. I would use it if I could.

Here are the ingredients in Ezekiel bread Sprouted wheat
Filtered water
Sprouted barley
Sprouted millet
Malted barley
Sprouted lentils
Sprouted soybeans
Sprouted spelt
Fresh yeast
Wheat gluten
Sea salt


As for the 2-1-1 recovery. Reason why I use 2 scoops of that is because it's more focused on carbohydrates then protien. So i have to add 1 scoop of hydro to get 50 grams of protien altogether.

there you go I listed the reasons behind each suggestion

personally I would drop one of the shake meals for some real food but then again observing your gains will give you better feed back on your diet than anything anyone else can suggest. Thats the key, it looks pretty good overall though.

I dont like 5x5 because its boring as hell and doesnt allow for great recovery inbetween sessions.
 
EM
Meal 1:
6 eggs (4 yolk) <-- that is only aprox 32g protein, the serving I suggested was 50g
O.k. I will go with your suggestion on this one then

EM
2 trader Joe flax oatmeal packets <-- the reason I suggested regular oats is because Im guessing this is flax seeds and contains high fat... you already have a serving of healthy fats in the egg yolkes though.

Convenience is important and I am addicted to the trader joe email. (not switching) Here are the ingredients though if it helps...

Nutrition Facts
Serving Size: 1 packet
Amount per Serving
Calories 150
Calories from Fat 18.0
Total Fat 2g
Saturated Fat 0g
Cholesterol 0mg
Sodium 130mg
Total Carbohydrate 29g
Dietary Fiber 3g
Sugars 11g
Protein 4g



EMI suggested using the bread in the other meal to make a sandwich with spinnach leaves because its an easy way to get in a good meal without much fuss.

Going to be a pickle on this one. I hate sandwhiches from home. I'll gag on it. What if I switch this to 1 serving of a bowl of whole wheat pasta with a little marinara in it? (Or have the whole wheat pasta in the next meal with chicken cutlets - whatever I eat pre-workout)

EM
Meal 3:
2 chicken cutlets (whole wheat bread crumbs)
Spinach <-- this meal has no source of fat and Im guessing very low carb content since your just using bread crumbs...

AS for the source of fat, I am cooking the chicken cutlets in olive oil. Should eat some almonds with this meal on top of it? (once again, I'll add whole wheat pasta to this meal if it's for pre-workout.

EM
PWO Shake:
1 scoop Hydro-whey (optimum nutrition)
2 scoop 2-1-1 recovery (optimum nutrition) <-- doesnt matter what brand you use, but if the protein powder contains lots of carbs then there may be no need for additional fruit.

How many carbs should I have post workout then? Also, as I get a bit tired towards the end of the workout, whats your thoughts on eating a banana half way through?


EM
Almonds & Walnuts <-- watch out for over eating on fats with milk and nuts in the same meal. Nuts can be very dense in fats

So should I cut out the nuts in this meal then?


EMIm saying its easy to find a source of carbs that provides more vitamins and minerals (fruit) and there are sources that provide similar nutrition without the bloating effect of bread. Use it if you want, you may have no problem with bloating. I would use it if I could.

I'm willing to forget this bread and replace it with an apple/banana and more berries if you think that's better? Thoughts?


EMpersonally I would drop one of the shake meals for some real food but then again observing your gains will give you better feed back on your diet than anything anyone else can suggest.

I'll replace one of the shake meals 2-4 times a week and go out for sushi when I have the time.

EMI don't like 5x5 because its boring as hell and doesn't allow for great recovery in between sessions.

As far as not allowing for full recovery, in between sessions, I was wondering if I should drop the 6th set on Fridays and have Mondays be 4X5. haha. Hear you on that!

So what workout are you doing now? Would love to hear about it if you don't mind sharing.
 
The oatmeal is fine, I was thinking of a different product.

Wholemeal pasta is fine for a source of carbs.

Leave the chicken cutlets for now then and see how you go.

Eat the same amounts of protein/carbs/fats per meal for now. That should answer your question on post w/o carbs and if you need nuts at certain meals.

If you don't gain fat easily and don't get bloated from bread then you can use it.

Keep the training the same for now. Do a deload week and change the diet like I said. Then go back to it and see if you can get progress going again. If not then maybe you would consider a new training routine.

I train like this:
Monday: legs, abs
Wednesday: chest, shoulders, tri's
Friday: back, bi's, abs
 
If I feel like I am not getting stronger although making weight on my way back up, is it o.k. to prolong it to 6-8 weeks to get back and just go with how i feel as far as making increases anywhere from 1.5lbs up to 5lbs? very helpful example!

If I understand what you're saying here correctly, you want to make smaller increases on the way back to your current PRs? You could do this I suppose, but personally I wouldn't take more than 5 or 6 week's max to hit your old PRs.

It's usually tough for people to get past week 8-10 on this program before they need a deload, because you are pushing some high intensities, especially at the end. While taking tiny jumps up to your old PRs, you'd still be working at weights which are very close to your limit, and therefore adding too many weeks of that may impact the length of time you can continue to hit new PRs when you get to that point.

When I bench, I do it in the squat rack so I feel comfortable going to failure as all I have to do is drop my chest and it hits the pins. To be honest, i hate asking for spots cause then they do the work for me, grab the bar, or sweat drips in my face. Amazing how so many people don't know how to spot in my gym. Wish there was a golds:( (sorry for rant), haha.

Ya, people are terrible spotters, lol. If I end up having to ask a random person, I always give them lengthy instructions on what not to do...

I like your idea that after totally failing on one exercise how I could integrate a hybrid of the advanced & intermediate. You think that's a good way to transition into the program? Just do advanced for the lifts that hit plateaus after deloading doesn't work anymore and continue intermediate on the other exercises?

Ya, that's one way that you could go about it. Alternatively, you can change up to a different program, as EM suggested. Ultimately, it's all about what program works the best and what program you can enjoy/tolerate doing. If you're getting terribly bored or not getting results, the motivation won't be there.

Another great point! You're on fire today! haha. I am proud of my gains for the minute amount of testosterone I'm on. Never lifted 275 easily before hand (except 5 years ago when I was on 1000mgs of test a week), however, i do miss doing shrugs, side delt raises, more bicep work, rear delts, but then again, 5X5 taught me it's meaningless.
It's ok to add some of those things in as assistance exercises. Just be smart about where you put them, and don't go overkill. Try to keep the overall assistance reps to 30-60 per day. If you're going to increase the volume on assistance exercises, do it slowly, so you give yourself time to adapt.


Interesting response. Because I take my shot every monday. And when I got this blood test, I took it on Friday. So I think i'll take your advice and shoot twice a week and split the dose. Then 1 month later, take a blood test again and then gauge from there...

That explains the results then. Your blood levels will peak roughly 24-48 hours after the shot and then tail off. So if you took the test on Friday, the blood levels would be much lower by then, and so on. By Sunday night, your blood levels are quite low (you may be feeling different even by then).

So let's say after splitting the dose and taking another blood test i'm still in mid range. Although 250mg is considered high, is the real result the total test levels and free test? Meaning, that if I upped it another 100mgs lets say, and my total test was under 1000 and free test was also within proper range, would that be something I could maintain long term and still be healthy? Obviously if I was over the levels, I would drop it too.

As I said above, the gear is likely fine, so I wouldn't worry too much about this. But yes, ultimately the actual levels in your blood is what matters. At this point, I'd just wait a month as you suggested and then take another test and go from there.
 
Thanks Cato. I feel great now:) Out of curiosity, what routine do you follow? Would like to get away from the 5x5 once i don't make gains anymore.
 
Right now I'm doing something like a modified 5x5 with a fourth day, so basically 4 day/week full body. I autoregulate, so the reps and sets I actually do may deviate from this a bit, though not by much.

M: 5x3 squat, bench, row
W: 2x5@80% of M's squats, 3x3 push press, deadlift work up to a top triple or double or single, 5x5 weighted pullups
F: Work up to a top triple or double or single on squat, bench, row
Sat: 3x3 Front squats, 5x5 weighted chinups, wildcard push exercise (been trying different things in this spot such as incline, close grip), abs

Been thinking of switching to sumo DLs and adding stiff legged DLs in somewhere as an assistance exercise.

That's basically what I do, but things have evolved quite a bit over time. Added a day about two months ago to increase work capacity, burn a few more calories, and get some front squats in there. Happen to be doing 5x3 right now on Mondays because I started missing some reps in my last two sets when doing 5x5. So instead of deloading, continued loading with lower reps.
 
Anything I listed as 5x3 or 3x3 etc I do the same weight on all sets (+ warmups). In contrast, the Friday workout I only do one top set.
 
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Wait...you want to be strong?

Stop counting calories and macros...you will go insane. Feed, feed, and feed some more. If you want to BE an excess of anything (work, training, anything) then you must live the life of excess. Excess sleep, food, training, rest.
 
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