I'm contemplating a prehab/rehab training cycle....

[Guinness5.0]

My damn back is nagging me. It's one of those irritating things that doesn't hurt to the point where it causes me not to squat/dl, but it seems to hurt my poundages and intensity. If I'm going to lift for my whole life and get strong as an ox (as is my intention) I think I might need to step back and do some work to ensure that I can avoid injury as much as possible.

So I may take 4 weeks to really get my low back and abs strong. Not to the exclusion of other body parts, but specific attention needs to be focused on this area (I think) to keep me feeling good while getting strong.

I'm thinking of some high-rep squats (20 reps) just for variety and to take it a bit easy on my back for now, subbing power cleans for deads, lots of hypers, GHR's (my new gym has one ) and tons of ab stuff that I haven't done before(bridges, holds, suitcase deads, etc.). Also, overhead squats and other stuff. I'd still be doing "normal" stuff like bench and overhead pressing, chins, etc but I really want to make my midsection impervious (well as close to impervious as possible anyway ). I'll be contemplating just how to set it up and I'd appreciate feedback or any proven programs anybody's tried with this emphasis in mind. I bet t-nation's got some stuff that would be valuable, so I'll be checking over there too. TIA.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Seems like we're going down the same road G5.0. I felt beat down by two consecutive 5 x 5's and wanted to give my body a break while working on core/stabilization/endurance.

I switched over to lots of dumbell stuff @ 60-70% 1RM in the 12-15 rep range. First 4 weeks I tried to increase my reps each week. Currently I'm trying to increase intensity week to week in the 12 rep range. I'm doing full body 2 x week (and doing some 'maintenance' deads, GM's and reverse hypers the other 2 days, although I got carried away a bit)

Shepard4 made a great point about ball vs. standing one-armed stuff: ball is great for balance but standing one-arm feels really good for functional core - standing one-arm cable press, standing one-arm shoulder press, suitcase deads and ATF squat to a one-arm press, I think he called it a thruster or somesuch.

Also I did the bridge and plank progression first 4 weeks and now moved onto to more movement based core: leg raises, crunches, chops...

Anyway, I'm not a core master. My wife has a book called 'Core Performance' which a few people including BW have spoken highly of here. You may want to check that out.

As far as 20 rep squats I haven't done them very often but when I have my lower back has always felt compromised as form starts to break at the end.

My only concern for you is that you'll be doing all this foo-foo stuff at your new hardcore gym

 

[Guinness5.0]

My only concern for you is that you'll be doing all this foo-foo stuff at your new hardcore gym

Yeah it's a bit of a paradox isn't it?

I'm def. going to steer clear of the ball and do more of the old school stuff like shep was talking about- I'm just toying with how to set it up. I plan to have a good mix of static and dynamic ab stuff. Thanks for the book recommendation- that's the sort of info I'm after in this thread.

Here's a rough idea of what I'd like to run:
M- Squat 2x20 (+warmups and possibly a back-off)
Bench 5x5 (seems to be working so why mess with it?)
Row 5x5
Weighted hypers (? as far as sets/reps but prob. 2x10 or 3x8)
Heavy, dynamic ab stuff TBD
W- Power clean 5x5 or 6x4 (def. gotta have some pulling in there and these are a heck of a lot easier on my low back than deads, plus i need to work on the form for them so I'll start somewhat light)
Push press 5x5 (same re. as bench)
Chins 5x5
GHR 3x10 unless they're brutal- I've never done 'em
Suitcase deads and static hold ab stuff TBD
F- Basically monday but with light, higher rep stuff for abs and maybe hypers w/out weight or less weight

This is just off the top of my head to give you guys something to critique. I'm open to change it and would like to hear some exercise suggestions for abs that are good for functional strength and stability.

Also, I suppose I could do a core session on tues and thurs and keep the MWF workouts shorter. That may be a bit much if any sort of heavy work is done though.

 

[JL_204]

Maybe you could throw in some light front squats. Ive been doing these for my 2nd 5x5 run and I can really feel them in my core.

Ive also been doing needsizes ab routine on days 1 and 3 and throughout all my years of ab work my core has never been stronger.

 

[blut wump]

I've been fond of weighted side-bends since I first started a program. As heavy as you can manage. The Needsize 5x5 is a solid abs routine, I've been doing it 2x per week recently.

I'm not sure what the differences between MP and PP would be on your core. My gut feeling is that MP might stress it more.

Static bridges are good: front and side. To make them more dynamic, rotate yourself every 15 or 30 seconds and go for time.

I think you'd probably be fine continuing with your normal workouts and simply adding in some pelvic girdle work on every session, ensuring you hit your abs front and side. Your normal workouts are probably hitting the posterior chain hard enough but reverse hypers can help to take some stress out of the spine.

 

[Tweakle]

imo you've been overtraining your lower back bigtime, and that's why you've run into problems - try dropping the frequency down, the lumbars take a long time to recover and you can't beat the into submission day in day out and not expect them to eventually bite back

seriously, you will be amazed at the results of training the squat & dead way less frequently and your body will thank you for it

 

[Guinness5.0]

imo you've been overtraining your lower back bigtime, and that's why you've run into problems - try dropping the frequency down, the lumbars take a long time to recover and you can't beat the into submission day in day out and not expect them to eventually bite back

seriously, you will be amazed at the results of training the squat & dead way less frequently and your body will thank you for it

I think that's probably the root of the matter- I had initially intended to be a bit more dynamic with my elevated deads and keep the weight down but I'm too damn immature to stick with light weight for long.

That's why this isn't a radical departure from "normal" training. I may also alternate deads with the cleans week to week if my back feels up to it. If I remember right you hits deads EOW, right? Do you have an opinion on high rep squats? I know you've had back trouble as well. Any nuggets of wisdom for someone trying to avoid problems (other than reducing frequency, which I think would have been a good idea to begin with )?

 

[Tweakle]

I've not done full pulls for almost a month now, rack deads from 18" and GMs done every 10 days are giving my back a breather until september

I noticed my knee, back, hip pains all became much less pronounced with low volume/ frequency training and the added benefit of getting stronger was nice too. The neural adaptions from more frequent training are great if you can stand it but my old joints prefer an ultra conservative approach

Do you have an opinion on high rep squats?

yeah they suck! lol.. I did a set of 20 yesterday and I can't get off the crapper today. I found alternating low and medium reps every session helps, and variation prevents joint tracking issues.. you dont always put the same stresses on the joints and soft tissues

 

[Shepherd4]

Shepard4 made a great point about ball vs. standing one-armed stuff: ball is great for balance but standing one-arm feels really good for functional core - standing one-arm cable press, standing one-arm shoulder press, suitcase deads and ATF squat to a one-arm press, I think he called it a thruster or somesuch.

Now how can I pass up a good shout out like that? First, K to Jim (if I'm even able to give any, that is) for telling people how smart I am. I'm not sure I did a very good job describing thrusters last time around -- here's a video clip from crossfit.com:

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-video/Dumbell_Thruster.wmv

Hopefully, that will do it better justice than my description. There are lots of variations on thrusters, too -- barbell, dumbbell, one handed, etc. (BTW, if you guys haven't combed through the crossfit website from top to bottom, you're missing out.) Incredible workouts that will bring your overall conditioning to a whole new level.

Now, to Guinness' original question. I've been plagued for some time now with periodic (every month or so) lower back spasms or *tweaks*. Every time it happens, I'm laid up for a week and my training takes two bigs steps back (which is not helping my quest for a 100kg snatch). For the last few months, I've been doing hyper extensions and kettlebell swings for a few high rep sets at the end of my workouts as a conditioner. The result: my back has felt 100% better, and I haven't lost a week to a back spasm in a few months now. I think my problem was a focus on the o-lifts (my primary sport) and heavy low-rep squatting without the more general conditioning necessary to maintain good "muscular fitness." My shoulders (tendinitis in both over the last few years) have felt significantly better two with the addition of period high-rep sets of pushups, handstand pushups and rows. Plus, I've actually dropped a few pounds from the conditioning, which will make it easier to make weight at 85kg!

Anyway, Guinness, before you toss away your good lifting in favor of the foo-foo bunny circuit, consider just throttling back the intensity a bit on your regular lifts and working on some basic conditioning (pushups, pullups, swings, bodyweight squats, etc.).

As for your suggested training plan, here's a few thoughts:


M- Squat 2x20 (+warmups and possibly a back-off)
Bench 5x5 (seems to be working so why mess with it?)
Row 5x5
Weighted hypers (? as far as sets/reps but prob. 2x10 or 3x8)
Heavy, dynamic ab stuff TBD

Comment: Drop the squats back down to 5x5 and just throttle back the intensity. 20-reppers will fry your back right now. Do unweighted, controlled hypers and
go for high-rep sets. Work up to sets of 15-20 or so.

W- Power clean 5x5 or 6x4 (def. gotta have some pulling in there and these are a heck of a lot easier on my low back than deads, plus i need to work on the form for them so I'll start somewhat light)
Push press 5x5 (same re. as bench)
Chins 5x5
GHR 3x10 unless they're brutal- I've never done 'em
Suitcase deads and static hold ab stuff TBD

Comment: Coming from an O-lifting background, I'm not a big fan of doing power cleans for 5's (better staying around 2-3; go for quality).

F- Basically monday but with light, higher rep stuff for abs and maybe hypers w/out weight or less weight

Comment: Okay, but how about just alternating between M and W workouts? Week 1 would be MWM; week 2 would be WMW? Something to consider.

As always, just my unsolicited $.02.

mpc

"Think of Tiger Woods out there hitting a bucket of balls. He's not swinging the 5-iron to get stronger -- he's swinging it to hone the groove. Hone the groove."