I need help convincing a doubter

[Citruscide]

My good friend is around 170lbs and 5'10", not very well built is trying to put on some muscle... he's a pretty intelligent guy and has taken it upon himself to read studies of his own...

He has found studies that say .8 to 1.8 grams of protein per KG of body weight MAXIMUM per day... at the HIGH end, he should only be eating 140G's of protein a day to grow successfully... he got his study from Tufts University and I think it is full of crap.

I need some medical mumbo jumbo experimental articles to convince him other wise... got any ideas?

C-ditty

 

[JOKER47]

You checked the Anabolic board? This same subject usually gets beat up over there at least once or twice a month.

.02,
Joker

 

[bignate73]

ACSM guidelines for a bodybuilder/strength athlete in adaptation phase is 1.2-1.8 g/kg but can be higher in certain individuals (of course). the bulk of the cals should come from carbohydrates (if adequate in quantity) anyways, since they will act as fuel and spare protein.

if he wants to go higher on protein, keep in mind that its an expensive (money) source of carbohydrate. chances are he will convert it through gluconeogenesis if his carb intake is low. usually with people eating higher protein, they dont have the appetite to throw down high volumes of carbs also, having eaten heavy protein. of course im making a generalization, but try eating 4000 cals, keeping your fat intake under control, carb intake high and protein at specific levels. if he were eating 4000 cals (say its above his maintenance) then it would be 14% of his caloric intake coming from protein. if he were eating above maintenance (~4000 cals) at 20% of his caloric intake being from protein (usually recommended, general situations) then he would require 200 gms.

chances are what he read was for an athlete, at maintenance calorie intake. which would be low obviously, but at growth levels of food intake, you see its a bit more reasonable. but keep in mind, if he makes his protein goal, but doesnt acheive his calorie goal. hes just making expensive carbohydrates. i dont like the fact of paying $3.29 a pound for glucose. when i can pay $1.50 for a big bag of rice....and get the same, and eat more.

big misconceptions out there can be clarified by some math and reasoning. you'll hear tons of people on here shoot you just numbers without justification...and end it with a "bro". like its supposed to be all right and true, or how its always been done. its just not always the case, but thats why there are people who make their living doing this stuff. hehehe.

 

[Citruscide]

He is convinced that his articles are correct, because they are done by Universities on objective viewpoints... whereas bodybuilders and trainers like us have been "brainwashed" by the system that wants us to "sell supplements"

I need some scientific studies that take into account people who workout... he says his articles do, but I am suspect... they say a 250lb bodybuilder needs no more than 205 grams of protein a day to grow... that's BS... and I need something to counteract his logical/rational mind.

C-ditty

 

[bignate73]

204 grams, thats according to someone's BMR, i suspect. what hes not taking into consideration is the persons maintenance caloric requirement. people have very different lives and thus burn varying amount of calories daily. there are 250 lb bb'ers who work in an office and train like madmen who will require maybe 4000 cals to grow, and there are 250lb bb'ers who work in a factory who may require 5500 cals, in that case if you break down the number of grams of protein on say a 60/20/20 diet the amounts of protein will be way off. what your friend is probably quoting is someone with a lower end "energy multiplier" which is what is multiplied by the BMR to achieve your caloric maintenance figure.

your friend is only looking at one cog in the machine. thats like looking at someone's fingernail and saying you know all about them. there are many other factors involved to make a blanket statement such as "here is the maximum definitive number of protein grams anyone who weighs 250lb needs."

how about body composition? fat needing only about 6 cals/lb to maintain, and muscle needing anywhere from 25-50 cals/lb to maintain. thats going to have an effect on metabolic demands.

how about types of protein, sources etc? is bioavailability going to play a role? i bet it will. someone eating processed hot dogs or someone eating chicken, or eggs. or a vegen bb'er?

a single or multiple studies wont cut the mustard in this case, your friend needs to hit the books a bit longer. instead of him preaching to not be brainwashed, he should look on the other end of the proverbial "blame" gun and make sure he isnt being hypocritical in his own case. (no offense to him) it just sounds like hes not very educated in this situation, though he has the drive to be. there is nothing wrong with being wrong, he just needs to be humble enough to nose deeper beyond one study and learn the other facets of human physiology and performance nutrition.

 

[Zyglamail]

He will learn by failing. If he is new to lifting then that probably will be enough to get him going in the right direction. Once he stagnates, then drop a hundred dollar bill on the table and ask him to match it, tell him to add 100g or more protien daily and if he starts gaining again you keep his c-note, if not he can keep yours

 

[Fatty4You]

he got his study from Tufts University and I think it is full of crap.

I went to Tufts University and i have taken Nutrition class with Prof. Econemos and Nutrition and Behavior class with Prof. Kanarack [not that those names are important] but anyway, they do a lot of studies, including the Tufts Longitudinal Health Survey, which i think is one of the biggest health studies in the country or something. ANyway, i have talked to them in class about sports and nutrition. They say that most of the information we talked about in class is NOT for atheletes. I mean obviously, general guidelines hold true across the board, but when it comes to caloric consumption and protien and supplementation, the stuff we learned DID NOT take athletes into account.

Now, i dont know about the study your friend read, but that is the info i got from my classes.

-Fatty

 

[johnb]

This isn't a study, but its author Lyle McDonald knows as much about bodybuilding nutrition as anyone.

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/baseline-diet-02.htm

Do a search on "protein requirments" and his name on Google Groups, all kinds of stuff turns up.

 

[Citruscide]

Well, it's hopeless... he won't go over 140g of protein a day, and demands that there is no evidence out there that suggests otherwise...

I can't find any articles or medical reports ... it seems that scientists are against us on this one, and he will not listen to any sort of anecdotal evidence.

C-ditty

 

[Zyglamail]

Well, it's hopeless... he won't go over 140g of protein a day, and demands that there is no evidence out there that suggests otherwise...

I can't find any articles or medical reports ... it seems that scientists are against us on this one, and he will not listen to any sort of anecdotal evidence.

C-ditty

hehe, exactly why I said to let him learn for himself and when the day comes and he doesnt grow anymore you can sit back, smile and offering him a protien drink