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Taken from:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=468466&highlight=pct+short+cycles
From the PCT forum (genetics post)
When to begin PCT:
On average, begin PCT approximately 5-10 days after your last injection regardless of longer acting esters. Begin PCT 1-3 days after your last injection and/or intake when using short acting esters.
Keep in mind, pituitary LH secretion automatically increases as the hormones diminish from your system. The elevated androgen levels are from an exogenous source and your endogenous production is suppressed. Therefore, waiting for the exogenous androgens to completely clear from your system, ultimately results in lower total concentrations of androgens in your system when beginning PCT. This leads to an unfavorable andgrogen:estrogen ratio and the well known “crash” effect.
*As previously mentioned, the actions of HCG take place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting HPTA suppression. There are no contradictions with respect to the effectiveness of HCG usage while exogenous hormones are present in your system.
PCT Protocol(s):
1.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
2.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for an additional 3 weeks.
3.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
4.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 100 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
Option one can be considered as a standard PCT protocol. This should apply to all basic cycles. Option 2 is generally the same as option one except for the addition of Clomid which is added as a supporting recovery aid. Option three and four incorporate a higher HCG dosage and have a relationship similar to options one and two in the sense that Clomid is incorporated in the latter as a supporting recovery aid.
*The majority of my experience is with intermediate to advanced athletes whom have completed multiple cycles with higher dosages. Therefore, based upon previous blood work results and considering the common or convenient preparations available, we have established that 1,500 IUs 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) to be the optimal HCG dosage to begin with. The Nolvadex dosage remains unchanged however Clomid is utilized throughout the entire PCT at 100 mgs ED during the first 3 weeks and 50 mgs ED for the last 3 weeks.
HCG During Cycle:
HCG in combination with Nolvadex can and should be used during prolonged (12+/wks) and high dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In this case, 500-1,000 IUs HCG ED in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7-10 days consecutively is administered mid cycle or intermittently (every 6-8 weeks) during the cycle.
Maintaining testicular volume during cycle does in fact improve recovery when compared to atrophied testes when beginning PCT. This solution addresses both testicular atrophy and prevention of Leydig cell desensitization (discussed next) associated with HCG usage.
Leydig Cell Desensitization:
Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose HCG usage. Using it continuously during a cycle could possibly cause the LH receptor to desensitize which in turn would ultimately render the PCT to be either less effective or possibly useless. This seems counterproductive. HCG will not be needed on cycles where the proper ancillaries are used and where the dosages/durations are realistic.
The previous summary was a general statement. The reality and good news is that Leydig cell desensitization due to HCG usage is blocked and/or minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by suppressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.
Additional Factors That Influence Recovery:
Factors that may complicate and/or delay recovery are elevated levels of estrogen and prolactin. Both of these hormones, when elevated, exert negative feedback on the HPTA. Estrogen and its side effects can be controlled by using an aromatase inhibitor such as Aromasin, Femara and Arimidex during cycles including aromatizing AAS. Prolactin and its side effects can be controlled by using an anti Prolactin such as Cabergoline (Dostinex) or Bromocriptine (Parodel) during cycles containing nandrolones. If these measures have not been addressed during the cycle, they will
more than likely need to be addressed during PCT. In this scenario, the objective is to lower these hormones to acceptable levels in order to avoid the complications and/or delay in recovery. Blood work is imperative in evaluating the effectiveness of therapy. This will provide a clear and concise answer in regards to the adjustment of dosages and continuation of medication if necessary.
*There are numerous studies which support and refute the association of nandrolones and prolactin. However, based on first hand experience and blood work results, there are far more individuals today whom can testify that the usage of nandrolones can attribute to an increase in prolactin concentrations. In addition, many individuals have reported elevated prolactin levels during cycles which do not contain nandrolones. The common factor within these cases is supraphysiological levels of estrogen. Estrogens act directly at the pituitary level by causing the stimulation of lactotrophs which in turn enhances prolactin secretion. This is another reason why estrogen management in the form of an aromatase inhibitor should be included with cycles containing aromatizing AAS. Although not absolutely necessary and considering the necessary restoration of physiological estrogen values, there is sufficient evidence which suggests that aromatase inhibitors can improve and increase recovery rates.
Unsuccessful PCT:
In some cases the aforementioned post cycle therapy protocols as well as those which are not mentioned may be unsuccessful in the restoration of homeostasis. This should not warrant immediate concern. Many endocrinologists have concluded that the only form of treatment in this particular scenario is hormone replacement therapy (HRT).
This is far from the truth. The reason many endocrinologists have come to this conclusion is due to the fact that very few of them have the experience treating severe forms of secondary acquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. They are unfamiliar with proper protocols which include high dosage HCG administration and additional gonadotropin preparations such as HMG or rFSH. This complication puts the patient at risk for potential and unknown side effects in the eyes of the doctor. Therefore, HRT is a reasonable solution since it will quickly alleviate the majority of the uncomfortable symptoms that the patient is experiencing.
Aside from disappointing blood work results which illustrate the typical signs of an unsuccessful recovery, the key physical indicator that the treatment is unsuccessful is testicular atrophy. In this case, HCG is continued with the necessary adjustments in dosage and frequency until an increase in testicular volume has been achieved. There is no one size fits all protocol since every case varies and deserves an individualized approach. Subsequent changes will be based upon the individual’s response to each particular stage. All the variable factors involved during the recovery process need to be considered. It's far from accurate to reach the conclusion that HRT is needed if one specific recovery protocol is not successful.
I find this very interesting... as the next post in the thread:
Swordfish... I have to say, I followed that PCT twice so far and both times I was unsuccessful... in fact, I'm on PCT #2 for my last cycle.... I had some help from djsf who pointed out to me that because of the length of my cycle and the amounts of long-acting esters I had done (deca), I should've started my PCT later than I did, which was about 1 week after my last test shot... (the deca I had finished 2 weeks prior to that).... so I probably should've waited one more week before starting my PCT, since deca levels were still high in the system.... in turn, that was inhibiting PCT....
I'll know for sure next time around, but that's just my 2.5 cents
Indicated that this method didn't work too too well for him, and that he should have waited longer.. I've done a few test/deca... test/dbol cycles... all 8 - 12 weeks... and am now going for a small 5 week cycle of prop/winny... I've had minimal success using Clomid as a PCT... I took it throughout the cycle, then took it 300/100/100 after... and kept gains... got depressed... ate poorly, and lost most of my gains... the breaking out was mental as well... whether it was the clomid's fault, or hormone imbalance.. or both... I'm not sure... but I'd like to try something other then clomid...
So..
I am trying a few short cycles in a row with the same time off... similar to this:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=436819&highlight=pct+short+cycles
I'd REALLY like to run a proper, and complete PCT... I haven't bothered with the HCG in the past... as the older school method of thinking was that it was not needed, and could cause gyno etc... so I didn't wanna be bothered.. it almost seemed like too much bother... this time... I think I'm going to try:
1000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
As the cycle I'm going on is short, and figure this should suffice... I'll be using:
50mg winny EOD
100mg prop EOD
for 6.5 weeks of prop and 4 weeks of winny...
My goals are meager compared so some.... I wouldn't mind hardening up, and perhaps gaining 6 - 8lbs of muscle per 'cycle'... and will likely run cycles of this size for a little while... Now the article idicates that I should wait a day after my last shot.... if I time them both to end the same day.. I should be ok to start it a day after correct?
Any tips/ideas/suggestions on PCT etc... ? The diet I intend to follow is similar to this:
Days-------Calories---Protein---Carbs----Fat---Cardio
Day 1:-------2990-----250-----250-----110-----30min - low
Day 2:-------2990-----275-----225-----110
Day 3:-------2900-----275-----225-----100-----30min - low
Day 4:-------2810-----275-----225-----90
Day 5:-------2810-----275-----225-----90------30min - low
Day 6:-------3200-----250-----325-----100
Repeat...
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=468466&highlight=pct+short+cycles
From the PCT forum (genetics post)
When to begin PCT:
On average, begin PCT approximately 5-10 days after your last injection regardless of longer acting esters. Begin PCT 1-3 days after your last injection and/or intake when using short acting esters.
Keep in mind, pituitary LH secretion automatically increases as the hormones diminish from your system. The elevated androgen levels are from an exogenous source and your endogenous production is suppressed. Therefore, waiting for the exogenous androgens to completely clear from your system, ultimately results in lower total concentrations of androgens in your system when beginning PCT. This leads to an unfavorable andgrogen:estrogen ratio and the well known “crash” effect.
*As previously mentioned, the actions of HCG take place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting HPTA suppression. There are no contradictions with respect to the effectiveness of HCG usage while exogenous hormones are present in your system.
PCT Protocol(s):
1.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
2.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for an additional 3 weeks.
3.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
4.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 100 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
Option one can be considered as a standard PCT protocol. This should apply to all basic cycles. Option 2 is generally the same as option one except for the addition of Clomid which is added as a supporting recovery aid. Option three and four incorporate a higher HCG dosage and have a relationship similar to options one and two in the sense that Clomid is incorporated in the latter as a supporting recovery aid.
*The majority of my experience is with intermediate to advanced athletes whom have completed multiple cycles with higher dosages. Therefore, based upon previous blood work results and considering the common or convenient preparations available, we have established that 1,500 IUs 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) to be the optimal HCG dosage to begin with. The Nolvadex dosage remains unchanged however Clomid is utilized throughout the entire PCT at 100 mgs ED during the first 3 weeks and 50 mgs ED for the last 3 weeks.
HCG During Cycle:
HCG in combination with Nolvadex can and should be used during prolonged (12+/wks) and high dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In this case, 500-1,000 IUs HCG ED in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7-10 days consecutively is administered mid cycle or intermittently (every 6-8 weeks) during the cycle.
Maintaining testicular volume during cycle does in fact improve recovery when compared to atrophied testes when beginning PCT. This solution addresses both testicular atrophy and prevention of Leydig cell desensitization (discussed next) associated with HCG usage.
Leydig Cell Desensitization:
Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose HCG usage. Using it continuously during a cycle could possibly cause the LH receptor to desensitize which in turn would ultimately render the PCT to be either less effective or possibly useless. This seems counterproductive. HCG will not be needed on cycles where the proper ancillaries are used and where the dosages/durations are realistic.
The previous summary was a general statement. The reality and good news is that Leydig cell desensitization due to HCG usage is blocked and/or minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by suppressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.
Additional Factors That Influence Recovery:
Factors that may complicate and/or delay recovery are elevated levels of estrogen and prolactin. Both of these hormones, when elevated, exert negative feedback on the HPTA. Estrogen and its side effects can be controlled by using an aromatase inhibitor such as Aromasin, Femara and Arimidex during cycles including aromatizing AAS. Prolactin and its side effects can be controlled by using an anti Prolactin such as Cabergoline (Dostinex) or Bromocriptine (Parodel) during cycles containing nandrolones. If these measures have not been addressed during the cycle, they will
more than likely need to be addressed during PCT. In this scenario, the objective is to lower these hormones to acceptable levels in order to avoid the complications and/or delay in recovery. Blood work is imperative in evaluating the effectiveness of therapy. This will provide a clear and concise answer in regards to the adjustment of dosages and continuation of medication if necessary.
*There are numerous studies which support and refute the association of nandrolones and prolactin. However, based on first hand experience and blood work results, there are far more individuals today whom can testify that the usage of nandrolones can attribute to an increase in prolactin concentrations. In addition, many individuals have reported elevated prolactin levels during cycles which do not contain nandrolones. The common factor within these cases is supraphysiological levels of estrogen. Estrogens act directly at the pituitary level by causing the stimulation of lactotrophs which in turn enhances prolactin secretion. This is another reason why estrogen management in the form of an aromatase inhibitor should be included with cycles containing aromatizing AAS. Although not absolutely necessary and considering the necessary restoration of physiological estrogen values, there is sufficient evidence which suggests that aromatase inhibitors can improve and increase recovery rates.
Unsuccessful PCT:
In some cases the aforementioned post cycle therapy protocols as well as those which are not mentioned may be unsuccessful in the restoration of homeostasis. This should not warrant immediate concern. Many endocrinologists have concluded that the only form of treatment in this particular scenario is hormone replacement therapy (HRT).
This is far from the truth. The reason many endocrinologists have come to this conclusion is due to the fact that very few of them have the experience treating severe forms of secondary acquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. They are unfamiliar with proper protocols which include high dosage HCG administration and additional gonadotropin preparations such as HMG or rFSH. This complication puts the patient at risk for potential and unknown side effects in the eyes of the doctor. Therefore, HRT is a reasonable solution since it will quickly alleviate the majority of the uncomfortable symptoms that the patient is experiencing.
Aside from disappointing blood work results which illustrate the typical signs of an unsuccessful recovery, the key physical indicator that the treatment is unsuccessful is testicular atrophy. In this case, HCG is continued with the necessary adjustments in dosage and frequency until an increase in testicular volume has been achieved. There is no one size fits all protocol since every case varies and deserves an individualized approach. Subsequent changes will be based upon the individual’s response to each particular stage. All the variable factors involved during the recovery process need to be considered. It's far from accurate to reach the conclusion that HRT is needed if one specific recovery protocol is not successful.
I find this very interesting... as the next post in the thread:
Swordfish... I have to say, I followed that PCT twice so far and both times I was unsuccessful... in fact, I'm on PCT #2 for my last cycle.... I had some help from djsf who pointed out to me that because of the length of my cycle and the amounts of long-acting esters I had done (deca), I should've started my PCT later than I did, which was about 1 week after my last test shot... (the deca I had finished 2 weeks prior to that).... so I probably should've waited one more week before starting my PCT, since deca levels were still high in the system.... in turn, that was inhibiting PCT....
I'll know for sure next time around, but that's just my 2.5 cents
Indicated that this method didn't work too too well for him, and that he should have waited longer.. I've done a few test/deca... test/dbol cycles... all 8 - 12 weeks... and am now going for a small 5 week cycle of prop/winny... I've had minimal success using Clomid as a PCT... I took it throughout the cycle, then took it 300/100/100 after... and kept gains... got depressed... ate poorly, and lost most of my gains... the breaking out was mental as well... whether it was the clomid's fault, or hormone imbalance.. or both... I'm not sure... but I'd like to try something other then clomid...
So..
I am trying a few short cycles in a row with the same time off... similar to this:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=436819&highlight=pct+short+cycles
I'd REALLY like to run a proper, and complete PCT... I haven't bothered with the HCG in the past... as the older school method of thinking was that it was not needed, and could cause gyno etc... so I didn't wanna be bothered.. it almost seemed like too much bother... this time... I think I'm going to try:
1000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
As the cycle I'm going on is short, and figure this should suffice... I'll be using:
50mg winny EOD
100mg prop EOD
for 6.5 weeks of prop and 4 weeks of winny...
My goals are meager compared so some.... I wouldn't mind hardening up, and perhaps gaining 6 - 8lbs of muscle per 'cycle'... and will likely run cycles of this size for a little while... Now the article idicates that I should wait a day after my last shot.... if I time them both to end the same day.. I should be ok to start it a day after correct?
Any tips/ideas/suggestions on PCT etc... ? The diet I intend to follow is similar to this:
Days-------Calories---Protein---Carbs----Fat---Cardio
Day 1:-------2990-----250-----250-----110-----30min - low
Day 2:-------2990-----275-----225-----110
Day 3:-------2900-----275-----225-----100-----30min - low
Day 4:-------2810-----275-----225-----90
Day 5:-------2810-----275-----225-----90------30min - low
Day 6:-------3200-----250-----325-----100
Repeat...
