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HRT for low-normal levels?

F

fakename

New member
Hi,

Been on the board for a while but wanted some anonymity with this one. I am 27 years old and had my natural test levels measured for the first time by the doc last week due to some symptoms that i have been having. regardless, results came back as follows:

total - 474 ng/dl
free - 92 pg/ml or 1.9% free

now this falls in the normal range according to the lab, but isn't this low for a 27 year old? doc won't even talk to me about it but wants to prescribe anti-depressants....what do u guys think?

Thanks
 
I had a sneaking suspicion that my levels were low and my doc tested me.. i was 21 at the time (a little over a year ago) and my levels came back at 280.. doc started me on HRT at 300mg once a month..i didnt feel anything. went to 450mg/month at once..started to feel it.. so i stuck with 450mg/month (spread to 225mg eow)..now I am seeing another doctor and he pushed me to 200mg/week.. :)

go see an anti-aging doc and he'll get you on something.. but really, 474 is nothing to worry about
 
474 / 92 are not a bad numbers (even at 27). If I were you I would not opt for TRT unitl its a very last resort.
 
bilter said:
474 / 92 are not a bad numbers (even at 27). If I were you I would not opt for TRT unitl its a very last resort.
Click to expand...

When accompanied by symptoms they are pretty bad you need to realise people will respond differently to same circulating amounts

Mike fear your therapy is dreadful by your doctor eow injections should not of been done you would of been on a rollercoaster. When were levels measured I dont see how you would need 200mg/wk and have you introduced hcg.

Fakename were other levels measured ie oestrogen cortisol thyroid etc
 
Maxgain said:
When accompanied by symptoms they are pretty bad you need to realise people will respond differently to same circulating amounts

Mike fear your therapy is dreadful by your doctor eow injections should not of been done you would of been on a rollercoaster. When were levels measured I dont see how you would need 200mg/wk and have you introduced hcg.

Fakename were other levels measured ie oestrogen cortisol thyroid etc
Click to expand...

no, doc looked at me like i was idiot and barely agreed to test total and free levels. told me the results were 'perfectly fine'. do you think a specialist would see eye to eye with me on this?
 
as stated above if you are not demostrating any symtoms of low test levels no Dr is going to agree to treat you. with trt. An really your levels are fine, the range considered "normal" is 300-1100 ng/dl. the range is wide for a reason, age and genetics have a lot to do with it. Honesly, I would love my levels to be what yours are
 
bilter said:
as stated above if you are not demostrating any symtoms of low test levels no Dr is going to agree to treat you. with trt. An really your levels are fine, the range considered "normal" is 300-1100 ng/dl. the range is wide for a reason, age and genetics have a lot to do with it. Honesly, I would love my levels to be what yours are
Click to expand...

does anyone know of any research that states levels by age range?
 
in general,,, testosterone levels peak around the 18-21 y/o range...my last test which was in late december 2005 was 709 ng/dl . i am as skinny as a rail,,though very strong.when i was 18 years ago i was tested for the first time and it was 858 ng/dl....everyones baseline is different...two years later i was tested again and it was around 620ng/dl...you could have a level of 300ng/dl and be big and muscular..there are so many factors that predict body composition and mood.
 
bilter said:
474 / 92 are not a bad numbers (even at 27). If I were you I would not opt for TRT unitl its a very last resort.
Click to expand...


The could be a little higher but not bad for age.
 
mikefear said:
eow injections are not that uncommon..but yeah, i know 200mg/week is a lot.. and i <3 it. :)
Click to expand...

eow injections are not umcommon but are due to a lack of education any doc that recommends this over every week injections does not know enough. In truth you should be starting on the gel
 
Maxgain said:
Yreah i have a large study somewhere ill post it this evening
Click to expand...

In our healthy male nonobese population 20–40 yr of age (n = 150), the mean of log-transformed early morning T levels was 21.8 nmol/L (627 ng/dL), the mean - 2 SD was 12.5 nmol/L (365 ng/dL), and the mean - 2.5 SD was 11 nmol/L (319 ng/dL). For FT, measured by equilibrium dialysis or calculated from T and SHBG levels (96), the mean was 0.5 nmol/L (14 ng/dL), the mean - 2 SD was 0.26 nMol/L (7.4 ng/dL), and the mean - 2.5 SD was 0.225 nmol/L (6.5 ng/dL). If we take as the lower normal limit and threshold of partial androgen deficiency, a conservative value of 11 nmol/L for T and 0.225 nmol/L for FT, which represent the lower 1% value of healthy young males, then it appears that more than 30% of men over 75 yr old have subnormal (F)T levels

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/6/2380

As you can see a non training population 20-40years the average is 627. That puts his levels out by about 1-1.5 standard deviations. As a 27 year old weight lifter you would expect him to be actaully above this -those closer to 40 below it- so he is not average/normal for his age
 
We all know that levels of T are very subjective you cant even find one Dr. that agrees with another. You need to go to an anti-aging specialist that knows and studies hormones and just doesnt go by what the books say. Once you start on some you will know in a couple weeks if that was your problem or not. But you should be monitered by a Dr. that indorses this type of therapy.
 
I agree. I saw 627 for 20-40 year olds...and for aroudn 27 year old I would expect you to avergae around 600.

I'm not sure what to do - the best would be to get a reputable trt specialist. You really need to do all test, but I think even then you wont know for sure.

At soem stage they might put you on trt for a while (say 2 months) and keep your levels steady at around 700 - and then you would be able tpo expereicne if there is a marked improvement.

As I posted as a 29 year old my levels aren not great either - very much like yours. My sex drive is pretty low, and I have trouble putting onmuscle, recovering from gym, and dont have much energy normally.

I am currently attmpeting to revamp my diet, and to some extent my lifestyle to see if that will affect my hormones positively.

But its a shame tht docs look at leves and say 350 is a normal value for a 25 year old (which they do) It's not.

I think like me you'r eint he low range...and its a difficult spot. Idont want trt...but I dont want to compromise the quality of my life either if there are options available.

I suspect around age 35 i'll be on trt...currently I'm an athlete tho...so its a little difficult for me lol.
 
well, i am 27, lifting for almost 10 years, eat super-clean high protein diet with plenty of red meat. also, i am 50% italian and unlike my relatives, have no facial or body hair and a lack of agressiveness/competiveness.

just not sure as to the risks vs. rewards of trt at 27. is this a life long commitment? can i safely come off when i dcide to have kids, etc.?

another big fear of mine are the migraines i suffered through puberty. have this fear of trt sparking them back up...but may be worrying too much.

like i said, i have a long distance doc in place and ready to help, but i am am afraid that i may need constant monitoring...
 
I think most of us here agree that you can forget about gp's. They dont know enough abotu this.

As for uroogists and endo's I suspect they too will not be very concerned abotu your levels. If you went under 400 or ...then perhaps at your age...which is why I say we are both a bit borderline.

I suspect you ill feel quite a bit better at 800...but thats just my opinion. I have taken test prop before, and the very next morning I wake up extreely fresh ...the rest of the cycle is also great. But this is normal.

What you want to find out is how youll feel at about 800 which is where we both expect to be, eating well exercising and looking after ourselves. I agree 400-500 sucks.

Your best bet is to go on metamorphosis.com and read up on some specialists...all this is gonna cost you bucks for sure.

On the other hand you dont want cowboys who simply inject you with 200mg every week...or even worse every other week( morons lol)

For now I'm sitting tight and see what will happen. I will admit though its frustrating living and not being sure if u r living at 100%. I'm pretty sure after kids i will be on trt though.

Slat1 is also in this position..although his figures improved. Not sure why.

Im due for anther check next week. We'll see wht comes off it...
 
The study quoted above though states that total T is not a good indicator at all...

A better indicator is SHBG apparently...I believe if thats eleveated it's bad?

And free T is more important than total T.
 
Zircon said:
The study quoted above though states that total T is not a good indicator at all...

A better indicator is SHBG apparently...I believe if thats eleveated it's bad?

And free T is more important than total T.
Click to expand...

Yup the shbg is sex hormone biding globulin a protein which binds testosterone making it inactive. The free T is the only thing that can exert an effect so is most important. As you age the trend is for SHBG to increase and total T to decrease leading to a nice drop in free testosterone.

For all those people with borderline low T this is the best it will be it only gets worse with age so you are delaying the inevitable and feeling crap in the process.
 
fakename said:
well, i am 27, lifting for almost 10 years, eat super-clean high protein diet with plenty of red meat. also, i am 50% italian and unlike my relatives, have no facial or body hair and a lack of agressiveness/competiveness.

just not sure as to the risks vs. rewards of trt at 27. is this a life long commitment? can i safely come off when i dcide to have kids, etc.?

another big fear of mine are the migraines i suffered through puberty. have this fear of trt sparking them back up...but may be worrying too much.

like i said, i have a long distance doc in place and ready to help, but i am am afraid that i may need constant monitoring...
Click to expand...

You need a high fat diet as well but i presume you take in suffiecient amounts. Typically it will be lifetime commintment as it is hardly likely for T levels to improve and will only get worse.
HCG should be intro in all trt programmes and this maintains teses functioning for most this is sufficent and men remain fully fertile if not FSh analogs can be given. Having children is not a contraindication in most cases.
 
Zircon said:
The study quoted above though states that total T is not a good indicator at all...

A better indicator is SHBG apparently...I believe if thats eleveated it's bad?

And free T is more important than total T.
Click to expand...

Spot on! Dropping SHBG = more free test, and that's what counts. You could have low test but if more of it is free (unbound) in comparison to someone who measures well over 1000 ng/dL but has a far greater bound percentage then you'll reap the benefits of higher natural FREE test levels - as the unbound will be hitting the receptor sites working its "magic".

Getting E2 checked is critical, as high E2 increases SHBG. What you might actually need is an AI like Adex / Aromasin to keep E2 (and SHBG) down, freeing up your natty test.
 
SHBG -sex hormone binding globulin, yes the lower the better. This has an inverse effect on free test. Fakename, have you cycled before? If yes did you study/and conduct proper PCT? You may want to do a PCT to see if it can boost your HPTA. TRT is a life long comitment. I am on right now and looking for a way to eliminate it. Low dose TRT should not affect you fertility but yo could have it checked if you do manage to got on trt and then want kids. As zicron stated gp's really know very little about this subject. I had to INSIST to have my test levels measured as part of a yearly blood test and I am 40! The Dr had no idea why I would want to know what my test levels are. I have been struggling with the symptoms of low test for years and they were very quick to put me on zoloft (later changed to celexa) when depression was not even the problem, turned out to be low test levels and it would not have been diagnosed without my insistance. Good luck, keep us informed.
 
fakename said:
much.

like i said, i have a long distance doc in place and ready to help, but i am am afraid that i may need constant monitoring...
Click to expand...

You need to be able to get tests taken before trt full assay one month after commencement 3 months after and every 6 months after and typically one month after any changes
 
As a point of reference, I recently started HRT & started at 100mg per week. My levels were much too high so I reduced it to 80mg per week and now my levels are at high 800s. HRT is for life so choose wisely.
 
that is my issue. not sure if this is the right move for life. at the same time, don't know what i am missing out on in life. eh, this sucks.
 
Simple, if you don't have multiple symptoms of low test, don't start it.

fakename said:
that is my issue. not sure if this is the right move for life. at the same time, don't know what i am missing out on in life. eh, this sucks.
Click to expand...
 
is HCG a prt of every HRT program? I have this fear of HCG causing problems as I had severe migraines through my teens...
 
As I've said, you are a bit borderline...but I think most reasonable endo's will not put you on.

That would be because of 2 reasons...you're free test is ok...not perfect but pretty much middle of the range, and your sex drive is good (this I assume you said?)

You will probably get someone who is willing to put you on for maybe 2 months and see how it goes. Push you up into 750 or so total test...and up your free test (I'm not sure how exogenous test exactly affects your shbg and free test - I think people react differently here though)

In the end it will be up to you - if you want ot push it, you will find someone to put you on...

Have you had all your other bloodwork checked, thyroid levels etc? everything?

I am due for a full blood check, including hormones again soon.
 
I'm on HRT. I suspect I've been low for many years. I don't remember what my exact levels are, but they are very low normal.
I've had an inability to lose body fat, zero aggression/borderline depression, sleep disorders, & diabetes, & my sex drive has wavered.
Doc started me on Andriol, then androgel, now I'm on Test Cyp, 675mg per month. I self administer weekly. Doc goes by symptoms, mainly, so, even though my levels have barely risen, my symptoms are mostly gone.
BTW, after 15 yrs of weight lifting, my physique is finally starting to show some improvements .
 
if you can we'd like to see your previous levels including shbg and free test...can do?

how old r u now? how old were you when you started?
 
Zircon said:
if you can we'd like to see your previous levels including shbg and free test...can do?

how old r u now? how old were you when you started?
Click to expand...

This is the first time I have ever tested levels. I am 27.

I have gone from 127 to 190lbs at 5' 8" in my 7 years of working out. abs show but lack hardness at vascularity that should be present at my bf level...
 
hidngod...

u say ur levels hav baely risen with exog test...yet u feel much better?

surely free test has gone up or shbg down or both??
 
yeh, not sure what he's on though...and I'm not sure how eog test affects free test and shbg levels (and if all ppl respond the same to it)
 
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