How does insulin actually build muscle?

[littleguy289]

Ok, I understand what insulin does, but that's just it- insulin is anabolic, but ONLY to insulin receptors. Right? And insulin receptors are gates that are only receptive to glucose. So, I can understand the value of wanting to pack as much glucose into muscle cells as possible, but that's more for maximizing ATP production for muscle energy, strength, stamina, etc. Ie- best BEFORE workout to fuel said workout. But post workout, isn't all that glucose just going to take up precious space that is better filled with aminos and such for actually rebuilding the damaged tissue? This is where true anabolics come in- ones that are selective to skeletal muscle tissue in the sense of actual protein synthesis like test, other steroids, sarms, etc.

What am I missing here?

 

[jacked.hillbilly]

Mechanism of insulin's anabolic effect on muscle: measurements of muscle protein synthesis and breakdown using aminoacyl-tRNA and other surrogate measures.
Abstract
Despite being an anabolic hormone in skeletal muscle, insulin's anticatabolic mechanism in humans remains controversial, with contradictory reports showing either stimulation of protein synthesis (PS) or inhibition of protein breakdown (PB) by insulin. Earlier measurements of muscle PS and PB in humans have relied on different surrogate measures of aminoacyl-tRNA and intracellular pools. We report that insulin's effect on muscle protein turnover using aminoacyl-tRNA as the precursor of PS and PB is calculated by mass balance of tracee amino acid (AA). We compared the results calculated from various surrogate measures. To determine the physiological role of insulin on muscle protein metabolism, we infused tracers of leucine and phenylalanine into 18 healthy subjects, and after 3 h, 10 subjects received a 4-h femoral arterial infusion of insulin (0.125 mUxkg(-1)xmin(-1)), while eight subjects continued with saline. Tracer-to-tracee ratios of leucine, phenylalanine, and ketoisocaproate were measured in the arterial and venous plasma, muscle tissue fluid, and AA-tRNA to calculate muscle PB and PS. Insulin infusion, unlike saline, significantly reduced the efflux of leucine and phenylalanine from muscle bed, based on various surrogate measures which agreed with those based on leucyl-tRNA (-28%), indicating a reduction in muscle PB (P < 0.02) without any significant effect on muscle PS. In conclusion, using AA-tRNA as the precursor pool, it is demonstrated that, in healthy humans in the postabsorptive state, insulin does not stimulate muscle protein synthesis and confirmed that insulin achieves muscle protein anabolism by inhibition of muscle protein breakdown.
Google the f in message I can't post links yet

 

[Jimmyinkedup]

Actually I don't think you understand how the whole receptor thing works man. It certainly isn't like you make it sound in your post. At any rate I don't think there is any doubt that insulin is anabolic, its a storage hormone by nature if you will.
The biggest issue or trick with it is trying to make sure muscle is the primary addition that gets stored, not body fat..

 

[zmyj88]

Nah, insulin receptors don't work like that at all. Insulin doesn't give a shit What it stores.

Your body always wants to save for later, energy, muscle, fat, anything that can keep you going when the food runs out or winter comes, or the goddamn herd runs away (thanks ancestors) it's how we evolved.

Insulin gets secreted when glucose spikes in your blood. This leads your body to believe it just ate. The insulin goes in there and says "oh shit, nutrients! Lemme put all this shot where it goes" protein synthesis increases (to build muscle to be later burned for energy, when the aforementioned ice age comes again) and it'll store fat too for the same reason

It also turns off the body's burning of fat and muscle for energy... Because it now senses new nutrients to burn while the stored muscle and fat can remain stored. This is good and bad. It keeps you in an anabolic state, building muscle while keeping the muscle you have, but its also keeping the fat you have, and storing more.

Once you can manipulate your slin, you learn to have high slin periods for storing (trick is to not take in fat here, like NONE), and low slin periods for burning (both fat and muscle) it takes awhile, but youll get the hang of it. Remember, it can only work with what its given to work with.

 

[littleguy289]

Ok that makes more sense in real world shit. I got looking into the actual science just out of curiosity but anything I found led me to question what I already knew.

 

[gorillahung]

I'm type 2 diabetic (shitty genetics). I take Lantus, which is a slowly released insulin where one injection is supposed to last 24 hours. It doesn't really last that long in my opinion. I'm still trying to get it to just keep my glucose levels low let alone use it to build muscle.

 

[littleguy289]

Actually I came up with something else I'm confused about- if insulin keeps you anabolic and out of catabolic, what happens when you're in a caloric deficit?

 

[polarbear1134]

Actually I came up with something else I'm confused about- if insulin keeps you anabolic and out of catabolic, what happens when you're in a caloric deficit?

well not sure about caloric deficit but if you mean what happens if you take insulin when you are staving? would not be suprised if your blood sugar crashes and you pass out.

Diabetics and docs can tell you better but insulin is not something to play with. You need to do it exactly right!

 

[littleguy289]

No I understand all about the risks of hypoglycemia/hypoglycemic shock. I am saying what if you have enough carbs/glucose to keep your blood sugar levels stable but just in a caloric deficit? If the insulin keeps your body in an anabolic/non-catabolic state, then where do the calories to make up the difference come from?

 

[zmyj88]

They don't, it burns the carbs and glucose, when that's gone, you go into shock. This is with synthetic insulin of course, your body knows how much to give you naturally, and it can't tell the difference between its own and what you stuck in your stomach fat. It just assumes that it released all that slin for some reason, so it works accordingly, if the carbs, sugars, and calories aren't there for it, its too late to say "oh shit, that's not my slin, lemme turn this off" its gonna store and burn until it wears off, and if there's nothing left, your sugar drops and the EMTs take over *if you're lucky.
.. Why would you be using slin in a caloric defecit anyway, kinda counterproductive nah?

 

[zmyj88]

Ahh, I see now. Your body doesn't *need to burn calories specifically, they're just what it prefers. Push comes to shove, it will burn sugars and fats, but that's a last resort because of how much energy it takes to do so. At that point, it doesn't give a shit about building muscle, its just using them to keep you alive. Needless to say, not a spot you wanna be in

 

[littleguy289]

I really had no intentions on trying it, just made me wonder. Like how do diabetics diet to lose fat? If what we know is true about insulin blocking fat loss, would they need to take a shot of short acting like humalog right with their last meal and then fast for awhile with no insulin?

 

[zmyj88]

Its a pain in the ass, my ex was a diabetic, and wanted to burn fat. Easy, I said, no problem. Nahhhhh, their diet has to be 100% on point, and there's other drugs for them out there, metformin, all those diabetes management Ines in the commercials.
They can do it, gotta test the blood sugar all the time and count calories fats, protein, everything, it sucks. I just eat what I want and hit the gym, they can't do that

 

[bigorse]

Its a pain in the ass, my ex was a diabetic, and wanted to burn fat. Easy, I said, no problem. Nahhhhh, their diet has to be 100% on point, and there's other drugs for them out there, metformin, all those diabetes management Ines in the commercials.
They can do it, gotta test the blood sugar all the time and count calories fats, protein, everything, it sucks. I just eat what I want and hit the gym, they can't do that

Met is great for weight loss and big cheats fyi, i love it. Just gives you the shits sometimes which can be good for getting rid of distention after a big cheat. Need to buy some more, dirt cheap too

 

[Loganwolf]

How insulin is responsible for muscle growth and the storage of muscle glycogen? To build muscle, your body must synthesize more protein than it catabolizes. Insulin stimulates protein synthesis. briefly something like that

 

[zmyj88]

Haha thanks Logan, cleared that up for us

 

[stevesmi]

to put it in english

type 1 diabetics do not produce insulin as pancreas fails to produce it

type 2 diabetics produce insulin, but their lifestyle has made it to the point where their bodies do not produce enough of it to drop their blood sugar low.

for a normal person when you eat something sugary your body produces insulin to drop your blood sugar back down. if you are very insulin resistant you can get much more of a roller coaster then someone who is sensitive.

as far as insulin being anabolic, yes it is.. but just cause that is the case doesn't mean if you inject it then you will magically grow muscle like popeye. if that was the case then type 1 diabetics who need to inject insulin would be huge from it.

also the big 300 pound bodybuilders you see are using insulin all day to take full advantage of their meals. it helps them eat big meals and shuttle in all that goodness into their muscles. they also will take metformin and other fat blocking drugs too to counteract fat gain.. plus a lot of stims and such to speed up metabolism.. T3 is something they abuse as well ...

bottom line is when you use insulin before a meal your body goes into storage mode, hence that is how insulin helps you build mass. without insulin these huge dudes would not be able to be 300 pounds and hold that much muscle.. it is a necessity at the mr Olympia level to use both insulin and HGH for this reason

I do not understand why you wrote insulin blocks fat storage. this is just not true. I know of plenty of dudes who ran insulin and put on 20 pounds of fat really fast. you really need to know what you are doing with this stuff or it can really be counter productive.. and yes there are plenty of guys who have hurt themselves taking insulin

for the average gym rat you just don't need to mess with it at all.

 

[bigorse]

to put it in english

type 1 diabetics do not produce insulin as pancreas fails to produce it

type 2 diabetics produce insulin, but their lifestyle has made it to the point where their bodies do not produce enough of it to drop their blood sugar low.

for a normal person when you eat something sugary your body produces insulin to drop your blood sugar back down. if you are very insulin resistant you can get much more of a roller coaster then someone who is sensitive.

as far as insulin being anabolic, yes it is.. but just cause that is the case doesn't mean if you inject it then you will magically grow muscle like popeye. if that was the case then type 1 diabetics who need to inject insulin would be huge from it.

also the big 300 pound bodybuilders you see are using insulin all day to take full advantage of their meals. it helps them eat big meals and shuttle in all that goodness into their muscles. they also will take metformin and other fat blocking drugs too to counteract fat gain.. plus a lot of stims and such to speed up metabolism.. T3 is something they abuse as well ...

bottom line is when you use insulin before a meal your body goes into storage mode, hence that is how insulin helps you build mass. without insulin these huge dudes would not be able to be 300 pounds and hold that much muscle.. it is a necessity at the mr Olympia level to use both insulin and HGH for this reason

I do not understand why you wrote insulin blocks fat storage. this is just not true. I know of plenty of dudes who ran insulin and put on 20 pounds of fat really fast. you really need to know what you are doing with this stuff or it can really be counter productive.. and yes there are plenty of guys who have hurt themselves taking insulin

for the average gym rat you just don't need to mess with it at all.

Great post, very informative. Sums up both the pros and cons of insulin use and who should be using it.

 

[stevesmi]

Great post, very informative. Sums up both the pros and cons of insulin use and who should be using it.

thanks.. there is a lot more to it then I wrote and I could write a book on it.. most diabetics have no clue about why or how they got diabetics.. most doctors don't give a rats ass about educating people either. a shame cause type 2 diabetics can be avoided and reversed though lifestyle improvements, but doctors do not suggest this.

and as people age their insulin sensitivities will change.. to be able to excel at bodybuilding you must figure out your insulin sensitivity to resistance scale. the tricky thing is on steroids it will change (steroids like tren will increase insulin resistance, hence why people need carbs on it), as you age it changes, as you gain and lose mass it changes. its a constant war.

 

[bigorse]

thanks.. there is a lot more to it then I wrote and I could write a book on it.. most diabetics have no clue about why or how they got diabetics.. most doctors don't give a rats ass about educating people either. a shame cause type 2 diabetics can be avoided and reversed though lifestyle improvements, but doctors do not suggest this.

and as people age their insulin sensitivities will change.. to be able to excel at bodybuilding you must figure out your insulin sensitivity to resistance scale. the tricky thing is on steroids it will change (steroids like tren will increase insulin resistance, hence why people need carbs on it), as you age it changes, as you gain and lose mass it changes. its a constant war.

Agreed on changing of lifestyle factors to treat all most all case's of type 2 diabetes with little to no needed use of insulin or biguanides like metformin.
Fasted blood glucose and blood insulin levels are 2 blood tests that are always part of my staple bloods as well as implementing short keto diets during off season to maintain insulin sensitivity.

 

[Jimmyinkedup]

I do not understand why you wrote insulin blocks fat storage. this is just not true. I know of plenty of dudes who ran insulin and put on 20 pounds of fat really fast. you really need to know what you are doing with this stuff or it can really be counter productive.. and yes there are plenty of guys who have hurt themselves taking insulin for the average gym rat you just don't need to mess with it at all.

Man I could not agree wore with this entire post. Unless this lifestyle is paying the bills in some way i dont see slin being worth it.
Also as is mentioned by Steve in this post people can very easily gain fat as opposed to muscle using slin unless they really know what they are doing. Unfortunately this is where the problem comes in for those that do not. Often in order to NOT gain fat when using slin the carb intake needs to be pushed lower to the point of entering what I would call an "unsafe zone". Thats bad news IMO....

 

[stevesmi]

Agreed on changing of lifestyle factors to treat all most all case's of type 2 diabetes with little to no needed use of insulin or biguanides like metformin.
Fasted blood glucose and blood insulin levels are 2 blood tests that are always part of my staple bloods as well as implementing short keto diets during off season to maintain insulin sensitivity.

the bad news too is metformin drops IGF-1 levels pretty strongly. I am pretty sure same goes for all diabetic meds out there.