House passes bill to bring troops home in '08

[pintoca]

but y'all will have to excuse me while I say your President is a douche of apocalyptic proportions... "The president said it is not Congress' job to make decisions regarding the war."

=====================

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The House of Representatives voted 223-201 Thursday to require most U.S. troops to leave Iraq by April 1, 2008.
art.bush.pelosi.gi.jpg

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, shown with President Bush in March, says the American people are demanding "a new direction."

President Bush vetoed a war-spending bill with a similar withdrawal date in May and has threatened to spike any new effort to set a timetable for a U.S. pullout. His Republican allies in the House said the new measure has no chance of passage.

But House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat, said Thursday's mixed report on the progress of the war shows it's time for American troops to come home.

"President Bush continues to urge patience, but what is needed -- and what the American people are demanding -- is a new direction," she said.

Earlier Thursday, Bush said a report on U.S.-set benchmarks for Iraq shows "satisfactory progress" in eight areas. He admitted that there is "more work to be done." Video Watch benchmark report, House vote factor into Iraq debate »

During his news conference, the president commented on the nation's psyche, declaring, "There's war fatigue in America. It's affecting our psychology. I understand that.

"This is an ugly war. It's a war in which an enemy will kill innocent men, women and children in order to achieve a political objective. It doesn't surprise me that there is deep concern amongst our people."

The president said it is not Congress' job to make decisions regarding the war.

Before the House vote, Rep. John Murtha, a Pennsylvania Democrat, told CNN's Wolf Blitzer: We're the people who decide when to go to war, whether the war should be funded.

"Now, when [the Bush administration] keeps making mistakes as they have made, we have to intercede. The public spoke in the last election and said clearly we want the troops redeployed."

"We are wasting the time and trying the patience of the American people for no useful purpose," said Oklahoma Rep. Tom Cole, one of four Republicans who voted for the measure.

Rep. Jay Inslee, a Washington Democrat, said the United States has given Iraqi leaders "a reasonable chance" to work out their differences, and it was time for American troops to come home.

"The moral obligation to Iraq has been completed," he said. "The moral obligation to our families now needs to be honored."

Four Republicans joined 219 Democrats to pass the bill, two more than backed a similar measure in March. But 10 Democrats broke ranks to oppose it.

Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, said most Republicans are unwilling to challenge Bush before a September report from Gen. David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker, the top U.S. officials in Iraq. In a closed-door meeting Wednesday, he called Republicans who break with the president "wimps."

"It was a way of illustrating the point that we ought to give the generals on the ground and our troops a chance to succeed," Boehner said.

But Rep. Jim Clyburn, the House Democratic whip, said the vote shows Republicans need to resort to "intimidation" to keep their caucus in line.

"The name-calling that other side has resorted to, I think, is beneath the dignity of the men and women who find themselves in harm's way," said Clyburn, of South Carolina.

The vote came the same day that the White House delivered a mixed report on the progress of the 4-year-old war, concluding that the political progress of the Iraqi government is lagging behind military gains. Across the Capitol, the report added new fuel to a similar debate in the Senate, where a leading Republican senator pronounced himself "disappointed" in the results.

"That government is simply not providing leadership worthy of the considerable sacrifice of our forces, and this has to change immediately," said Sen. John Warner, the influential former chairman of the Armed Services Committee.

A broader report by the top U.S. officials in Iraq -- Petraeus, the top American commander, and Crocker -- is scheduled for September, and Bush told reporters he would consult with Congress about "the way forward" at that point.

Arizona Sen. Jon Kyl, a Republican, told CNN, "I think any judgments at this time, one way or the other, are quite premature."

But Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada said, "The time to do this is now, not September."

"We're told, 'Good progress is being made. Wait till September. Good progress is being made.' How many times over the last 4½ years have we heard this?" Reid asked.

The Senate's Democratic leaders are using a Defense Department authorization bill as a vehicle to consider several amendments designed to force Bush to change course in the war.

Republicans have so far managed to use procedural roadblocks to head off those measures -- but faced with a U.S. death toll of more than 3,600 and deep public opposition, several GOP senators have wavered in recent weeks.

Three Republicans -- Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, Olympia Snowe of Maine and Gordon Smith of Oregon -- have co-sponsored a Democratic amendment that parallels the House bill.
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But Democrats are likely to need at least eight more Republican votes before their proposal comes to a vote.

Warner and six other Republicans voted Tuesday for an amendment that would have required U.S. troops to spend a month at home for every month deployed. Two more -- Sens. Richard Lugar and Pete Domenici -- have called on Bush to change course, but have opposed Democratic calls for an American withdrawal. E-mail to a friend

 

[ortiz34]

He'll veto it, discussion over.

 

[Longhorn85]

I like Bills like this when they are close to an election. Forces pols to shit or get off the pot. Then they have to 'splain their votes to their constituents.

 

[gator_mclusky]

He'll veto it, discussion over.

Exactly. Im not one for retreat. Sorry...I have balls!

Winston Churchill once said..."Advance, advance, advance but NEVER retreat"

Fuckin cowards kill me.

gator

 

[ponyfitness]

Wasn't the whole point of having Congress was to make decisions like that?

 

[roadwarrior]

Exactly. Im not one for retreat. Sorry...I have balls!

Winston Churchill once said..."Advance, advance, advance but NEVER retreat"

Fuckin cowards kill me.

gator

Bush has screwed this war up and is not doing a good job of fixing it. Our mistake in Iraq is not letting the military fight the war to win. Once we decided to go in to Iraq then we should have gone in with every weapon in our arsenal; the hell with collateral damage. That's how we covered EU's butt in WWII and how we won. Police action and the establishment of goverments is not the job of the military. Defending our country and our way of life is. They declared war on us. Even in the US, polls of muslims say they support killing US soldiers and innocents for their retarded backward faith. My attitude is kill one American, we kill 10 of you. Do it again and we kill 100. Next time, we wipe you off the face of the earth. America and our way of life is worth fighting and dying for. We should stop allowing muslims to visit or emigrate to the US (along with the Mexicans etc... I won't even start on that one), round up the non-citizen muslims and kick them out, keep a close eye on the others then lock them up when they cross the line. The message is "we're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore". I had friends killed in 9/11. I don't look at any muslim the same way anymore. I don't like them and I don't trust them.

All the EU folks and pacifists can flame me now.

 

[Gambino]

while i do think the cause in iraq is almost a lost one, i find humor that a euro bro is posting this.
they just can't get off our nuts, saying they hate us with one side of their mouth while licking our asses with the other.

 

[the_clockwork]

So much Bush bashing.. Look who the alternative was.. A man that called the troops idiots.. I'd much rather follow a guy that supports the troops rather than bashing them.

 

[jh1]

while i do think the cause in iraq is almost a lost one, i find humor that a euro bro is posting this.
they just can't get off our nuts, saying they hate us with one side of their mouth while licking our asses with the other.

....

 

[Gambino]

So much Bush bashing.. Look who the alternative was.. A man that called the troops idiots.. I'd much rather follow a guy that supports the troops rather than bashing them.

it's funny to me that people across the globe are soo interested in him.
they go thru the effort to know about him when we could give a fuck about who their leader is and what he stands for.

 

[the_clockwork]

it's funny to me that people across the globe are soo interested in him.
they go thru the effort to know about him when we could give a fuck about who their leader is and what he stands for.

yes I could understand if his decisions influenced you and yes I support the troops but they signed up for it, they weren't drafted, they knew they were going overseas or had the possibility. They are doing their job and I stand behind them b/c I know I couldn't do what they are doing and that's exactly why I didn't sign up.

I don't follow politics in other countries, why? b/c they don't influence me, therefore; why get caught up in it?

75% of Bush bashers can't name one thing they dislike about him. They simply say "he's killing people"... well that's war, people die.. if you have a big enough stance to belittle someone, you best make it a good one and be educated enough to stand behind it.

 

[Gambino]

yes I could understand if his decisions influenced you and yes I support the troops but they signed up for it, they weren't drafted, they knew they were going overseas or had the possibility. They are doing their job and I stand behind them b/c I know I couldn't do what they are doing and that's exactly why I didn't sign up.

I don't follow politics in other countries, why? b/c they don't influence me, therefore; why get caught up in it?

75% of Bush bashers can't name one thing they dislike about him. They simply say "he's killing people"... well that's war, people die.. if you have a big enough stance to belittle someone, you best make it a good one and be educated enough to stand behind it.

yeah somebody yesterday said something about bush being on the brink of a global war.
i shook my head and lol'ed.
HR (bless her pregenant soul) claimed that bush was on the verge of starting a cold war.
do people actually believe this shit? that one man is capable of doing so much evil?

 

[bluepeter]

it's funny to me that people across the globe are soo interested in him.
they go thru the effort to know about him when we could give a fuck about who their leader is and what he stands for.

What a wonderful thing to be proud of.

 

[Gambino]

What a wonderful thing to be proud of.

once again just being honest
you may not say it but you're proly in the same boat
can you name germany's leader
or china's?
or france's?
didn't think so

 

[the_clockwork]

What a wonderful thing to be proud of.

there are 193 different countries in the world.. I do not need to fill my head with their government and leaders and their views. I concern myself with one of those countries, the one I live in..

 

[bluepeter]

once again just being honest
you may not say it but you're proly in the same boat
can you name germany's leader
or china's?
or france's?
didn't think so

Angela Merkel is Germany's current chancellor.

Nicolas Sarkozy is the current President of France.

I'll admit I don't know the current Chinese leader. I could google it but just being honest.

So of course, you're wrong. The other major difference is I am not so arrogant (and proud of it) that I feel no other country or their politics matters.

 

[Gambino]

Angela Merkel is Germany's current chancellor.

Nicolas Sarkozy is the current President of France.

I'll admit I don't know the current Chinese leader. I could google it but just being honest.

So of course, you're wrong. The other major difference is I am not so arrogant (and proud of it) that I feel no other country or their politics matters.

sorry bro we are all not as worldly and thoughtful such as you are
maybe if i moved 60 miles north into ontario i could share in your infinite wisdom and wealth of knowledge

 

[bluepeter]

sorry bro we are all not as worldly and thoughtful such as you are
maybe if i moved 60 miles north into ontario i could share in your infinite wisdom and wealth of knowledge

Ironic that you're attempting to make me seem like the condescending asshole when it's you that is filling that role here.

You made the inference that you were proud of being ignorant of other countries and their politics because they didn't matter, not me.

You asked me a question and I answered it to the best of my ability.

 

[Gambino]

Ironic that you're attempting to make me seem like the condescending asshole when it's you that is filling that role here.

You made the inference that you were proud of being ignorant of other countries and their politics because they didn't matter, not me.

You asked me a question and I answered it to the best of my ability.

I'll agree that i'm a asshole
but for you to deny that about yourself is bullshit str8 up.
most of your posts regarding americans are condescending and snide
almost like you are looking down at us.

 

[bluepeter]

I'll agree that i'm a asshole
but for you to deny that about yourself is bullshit str8 up.
most of your posts regarding americans are condescending and snide
almost like you are looking down at us.

Nah, that would make me an American.

As usual, you're spewing tripe with nothing to back it up. You pull out the anti-American card every time you can't refute what is said.

Anyway, you've made a nice attempt to make this about me. Unfortunately your asinine post about being proud of your arrogance and ignorance still remains.

Cheers

 

[Gambino]

Nah, that would make me an American.

As usual, you're spewing tripe with nothing to back it up. You pull out the anti-American card every time you can't refute what is said.

Anyway, you've made a nice attempt to make this about me. Unfortunately your asinine post about being proud of your arrogance and ignorance still remains.

Cheers

lol nothing to back it up/
what am i trying to back up, that most americans don't concern themselves with foreign politics? do i really need to back that up?
what have i failed to refute of yours oh wise one?

 

[javaguru]

He'll veto it, discussion over.

If it passes in the Senate.....

 

[heatherrae]

He will veto it. He is becoming pretty comfortable with abusing his veto power.

 

[Gambino]

He will veto it. He is becoming pretty comfortable with abusing his veto power.

how does one abuse veto power?

 

[javaguru]

how does one abuse veto power?

Line item veto is shady shit when it comes to checks and balances...

 

[heatherrae]

how does one abuse veto power?

Bush is the prime example. Using one's veto power to render congress completely powerless pretty much usurps the balance of powers.

 

[Gambino]

Line item veto is shady shit when it comes to checks and balances...

explain me the difference

 

[javaguru]

explain me the difference

Traditional veto is all or nothing, line item allows veto of only specific provisions of a bill.

 

[Gambino]

Traditional veto is all or nothing, line item allows veto of only specific provisions of a bill.

so a stopper for pork shit attached
what's shady about that?

 

[JayC9]

once again just being honest
you may not say it but you're proly in the same boat
can you name germany's leader
or china's?
or france's?
didn't think so

do people actually believe this shit? that one man is capable of doing so much evil?"[

Most people will be able to tell you who the German leader was between 1934 and 1945.

 

[Gambino]

Most people will be able to tell you who the German leader was between 1934 and 1945.

lol def
same with UK's leader and russia's leader.
who was before hitler, was it hindenburg?

 

[JayC9]

lol def
same with UK's leader and russia's leader.
who was before hitler, was it hindenburg?

no idea but that proves the point doesn't it?

 

[Gambino]

no idea but that proves the point doesn't it?

that one man is capable of so much evil?
no, i don't believe so...their was a lot more to the german war machine than one man.
the german military was just as influential in wanting war as was hitler

 

[seaking420]

Bush has screwed this war up and is not doing a good job of fixing it. Our mistake in Iraq is not letting the military fight the war to win. Once we decided to go in to Iraq then we should have gone in with every weapon in our arsenal; the hell with collateral damage. That's how we covered EU's butt in WWII and how we won. Police action and the establishment of goverments is not the job of the military. Defending our country and our way of life is. They declared war on us. Even in the US, polls of muslims say they support killing US soldiers and innocents for their retarded backward faith. My attitude is kill one American, we kill 10 of you. Do it again and we kill 100. Next time, we wipe you off the face of the earth. America and our way of life is worth fighting and dying for. We should stop allowing muslims to visit or emigrate to the US (along with the Mexicans etc... I won't even start on that one), round up the non-citizen muslims and kick them out, keep a close eye on the others then lock them up when they cross the line. The message is "we're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore". I had friends killed in 9/11. I don't look at any muslim the same way anymore. I don't like them and I don't trust them.

Great Post

 

[javaguru]

so a stopper for pork shit attached
what's shady about that?

"Pork" has always been a means of bargaining for the passage of important legislation. All politics are local.......

This is a more disturbing line item veto....

In 2006, members of the United States Congress raised concerns regarding President George W. Bush's use of signing statements, to indicate that he would not enforce provisions of laws that he signed. This has been viewed as effectively a line-item veto by the president, raising constitutional issues regarding the practice.


-Bush's Challenges of Laws He Signed Is Criticized WashingtonPost.com

 

[JayC9]

that one man is capable of so much evil?
no, i don't believe so...their was a lot more to the german war machine than one man.
the german military was just as influential in wanting war as was hitler

I really don't know? This was not my point.

What I found surprising was that you are perplexed as to why folk of other nationalities have an interest in the US president and US affairs, especially when you are obviously a bit of a history buff yourself?

Leaving any personal opinions behind...the US is recognized as the worlds foremost superpower and because of this, Bush is the most publicized person in the political media, this is a US website with a majority US community, discussing topics pertaining mostly to the US, hence the thread, hence the seemingly prying interest.

Nobody can point a finger at a man for standing up for his country of origin but you must be able to see that it does sometimes come across as being a somewhat rooted opinion.

 

[Gambino]

"Pork" has always been a means of bargaining for the passage of important legislation. All politics are local.......

This is a more disturbing line item veto....

In 2006, members of the United States Congress raised concerns regarding President George W. Bush's use of signing statements, to indicate that he would not enforce provisions of laws that he signed. This has been viewed as effectively a line-item veto by the president, raising constitutional issues regarding the practice.


-Bush's Challenges of Laws He Signed Is Criticized WashingtonPost.com

damn this is def a bit shady

 

[biteme]

I believe history will judge this as one of the worst administrations ever if not the worst. And this war as a colossal fuck up.

 

[Gambino]

I believe history will judge this as one of the worst administrations ever if not the worst. And this war as a colossal fuck up.

worse than herbert hoover?
worse than andrew johnson?
most people don't think past 1980

 

[Razorguns]

i just posted a big ass thread about this. reply there.

 

[pintoca]

He'll veto it, discussion over.

yep,

Democracy at its finest

 

[heatherrae]

yep,

Democracy at its finest

bush clearly doesn't believe in democracy. The Patriot Act basically takes the constitution and uses it as toilet paper. His misuse of his veto powers shows that he could care less about Congressional checks to his power. He should have been impeached over the entire "weapons of mass destruction" lie he perpetrated on a still reeling and wounded post-911 America.

 

[pintoca]

while i do think the cause in iraq is almost a lost one, i find humor that a euro bro is posting this.
they just can't get off our nuts, saying they hate us with one side of their mouth while licking our asses with the other.

I'm not Euro Bino, I had my opinion way before moving here. I just can't find any common sense in his acts concerning this.

at all

If you think you can "win" a guerrilla warfare with a conventional army, you have to rethink again and very hard.

As for the guy that said that the military there is acting with "hands tied" or something like that, not being able to use all the arsenal, well, short of dropping an A-bomb, they have pretty much used everything, even weapons that are frowned upon by the International Community, like White Phosporus on humans (did you know that nasty shit usually burns right to the bone? it was used in Napalm in Vietnam as well, to avoid it being extinguished by going underwater)

As for Napalm, it was for sure used in Iraq in 91 and it's very probable that it was used again in Iraq starting in 2003...

so, in all honesty, what's there left to be used that will "win the war"?

 

[heatherrae]

I'm not Euro Bino, I had my opinion way before moving here. I just can't find any common sense in his acts concerning this.

at all

If you think you can "win" a guerrilla warfare with a conventional army, you have to rethink again and very hard.

As for the guy that said that the military there is acting with "hands tied" or something like that, not being able to use all the arsenal, well, short of dropping an A-bomb, they have pretty much used everything, even weapons that are frowned upon by the International Community, like White Phosporus on humans (did you know that nasty shit usually burns right to the bone? it was used in Napalm in Vietnam as well, to avoid it being extinguished by going underwater)

As for Napalm, it was for sure used in Iraq in 91 and it's very probable that it was used again in Iraq starting in 2003...

so, in all honesty, what's there left to be used that will "win the war"?

bush has no agenda to "win the war." His only motive has been OIL.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

yeah somebody yesterday said something about bush being on the brink of a global war.
i shook my head and lol'ed.
HR (bless her pregenant soul) claimed that bush was on the verge of starting a cold war.
do people actually believe this shit? that one man is capable of doing so much evil?

Ask the majority of the population that question about Stalin or better yet, Hitler and the answer will be a resounding "YES!!"

 

[Razorguns]

bush has no agenda to "win the war." His only motive has been OIL.

has to be. how you gonna pay back the cost of the war?

in defence - we all would've enjoyed a piece of that oil revenue. meaning more hospitals, schools and highways.

and iraqi's get that 'freedom' crap too. It all wold've been great - if things went as *planned*

but he miscalculated. now he's an arrogant pissed off stubborn leader who lost a war.

r

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

that one man is capable of so much evil?
no, i don't believe so...their was a lot more to the german war machine than one man.
the german military was just as influential in wanting war as was hitler

An eastern front war was inevitable with the Soviets. Hitler wasted his time and resources attacking England. Hell, there could've been an alliance between the two otherwise.

 

[heatherrae]

has to be. how you gonna pay back the cost of the war?

in defence - we all would've enjoyed a piece of that oil revenue. meaning more hospitals, schools and highways.

and iraqi's get that 'freedom' crap too. It all wold've been great - if things went as *planned*

but he miscalculated. now he's an arrogant pissed off stubborn leader who lost a war.

r

He never intended to win a war. They got the oil. They didn't share of the wealth here, though. His cronies got filthy rich.

 

[heatherrae]

yeah somebody yesterday said something about bush being on the brink of a global war.
i shook my head and lol'ed.
HR (bless her pregenant soul) claimed that bush was on the verge of starting a cold war.
do people actually believe this shit? that one man is capable of doing so much evil?

Yeah, God bless my pregnant soul. God knows that women can't be as edu-ma-cated or astute as you bino. Sorry that I even speak in your presence.

You think I was the only one that said that he was on the verge of creating a cold war fucking around in Europe? You need to read the papers more.

 

[Gambino]

Yeah, God bless my pregnant soul. God knows that women can't be as edu-ma-cated or astute as you bino. Sorry that I even speak in your presence.

You think I was the only one that said that he was on the verge of creating a cold war fucking around in Europe? You need to read the papers more.

i read the detroit free press e'vday
not one mention of a new cold war starting
for something so serious you would think it would get more media attention
just a flap between putin and bush that their lil meeting appeared to smooth over

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Wasn't/isn't it the dems' objective to stop Bush & co. from drilling in Alaska?

http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/alaska_senate_blocks_oil_drilling_plan.htm

 

[Gambino]

Wasn't/isn't it the dems' objective to stop Bush & co. from drilling in Alaska?

http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/alaska_senate_blocks_oil_drilling_plan.htm

apparently we should revert to horse and buggies

 

[heatherrae]

i read the detroit free press e'vday
not one mention of a new cold war starting
for something so serious you would think it would get more media attention
just a flap between putin and bush that their lil meeting appeared to smooth over

SHUT UP URCHIN. I'm about sick of your urchiness for today!

 

[Gambino]

SHUT UP URCHIN. I'm about sick of your urchiness for today!

speaking of urchinness, my lawyer bro is bouncing states and has to retake the bar
fuggin sucks huh? lotta money and studying for that bastard

 

[Gambino]

An eastern front war was inevitable with the Soviets. Hitler wasted his time and resources attacking England. Hell, there could've been an alliance between the two otherwise.

no way an alliance
england would never tolerate a conquered france
not cause they are tight with the french, they envy the inevitable power.
most of what england has warred throughout history about has been turf

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

apparently we should revert to horse and buggies

Yup; apparently putting caribou into harm's way is less acceptable than U.S. troops being put in the same, only worse.
Hell maybe we should just throw in the towel altogether on this great country we've created. Those poor indians.....

 

[redsamurai]

that one man is capable of so much evil?
no, i don't believe so...their was a lot more to the german war machine than one man.
the german military was just as influential in wanting war as was hitler

you don't know what you're talking about here bro, my grandfather was in the weirmacht, it was the nazi party that pushed for war........not the regular army.

 

[Gambino]

you don't know what you're talking about here bro, my grandfather was in the weirmacht, it was the nazi party that pushed for war........not the regular army.

so the pop wasn't pissed about the versailles treaty?
hindenburg was not a military minded man?
if the army was so opposed to military action why did they not turn on hitler?
they outnumbered the nazi party by a huge margin.
hitler was the figurehead for sure, people wanna act like the germans were mindless pawns, which is/was not the case

 

[Raptorex]

die, commie pinko fag

 

[heatherrae]

speaking of urchinness, my lawyer bro is bouncing states and has to retake the bar
fuggin sucks huh? lotta money and studying for that bastard

Yeah it SUCKS. I may have to do it soon, too. Takes so much MONEY to switch states. Money that I don't have right now...lol.

 

[Gambino]

anyone interested in wermacht/nazi germany should read this book
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?r=1&ean=9780679772682

disspells a lot of common myths about the invovlement of german citizens in the holacust

 

[redsamurai]

bush has no agenda to "win the war." His only motive has been OIL.

every war ever fought can probably be whittled down to a war of resources..........that and control of people's minds and souls, which is also a resource. What the human race needs is "oversight"...........basically a higher power being that comes and draws a line in the sand "figuratively" and "literally"............you cross that line I'm going to check you..............kind of like a super saiyan that can generate an energy ball in his hands that has the power of a 100 megaton bomb without the nuclear fallout. So let's say the U.S get's fancy with another country........well, said higher power being comes and puts down aforementioned ball of energy right down on capitol hill..........bada bing bada bang, end of discussion........we get checked...........that's how it needs to be, we need to be watched by some higher uncorruptible being.

 

[redsamurai]

i read the detroit free press e'vday
not one mention of a new cold war starting
for something so serious you would think it would get more media attention
just a flap between putin and bush that their lil meeting appeared to smooth over

That's about as laughable as me saying I read the cleveland plain dealer every day so what's this big fuss over global warming? It's not necessarily a "cold war" that has people concerned.........the concern is the EU parting ways with us and solidifying ties with China and leaving the U.S out. The U.S will of course try to rectify the situation with some bombs.........and therefore starting shit with the EU and China.........far fetched? maybe........but china and the EU are coming real close to requiring as much resources as we do..........and that's when you're going to see the bombs start flying. If you don't see that scenario as a distinct possibility, you're not paying attention to the world and you migtht need to start reading more journals than the detroit daily.

 

[redsamurai]

so the pop wasn't pissed about the versailles treaty?
hindenburg was not a military minded man?
if the army was so opposed to military action why did they not turn on hitler?
they outnumbered the nazi party by a huge margin.
hitler was the figurehead for sure, people wanna act like the germans were mindless pawns, which is/was not the case

you don't understand the simpleness of most of the people that constituted the german army.....and you don't understand the complexities of the situation. Yes, the german people bear responsibility for taking in with a man that told them they were the chosen people. And remember what happens to a young man when he goes to the military, and this is the case with the U.S military as well...........they DO become brainwashed pawns.....not mindless mind you, but they do as their told........and until you go through that kind of tearing down and then building back up, you can't understand it.

 

[redsamurai]

anyone interested in wermacht/nazi germany should read this book
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?r=1&ean=9780679772682

disspells a lot of common myths about the invovlement of german citizens in the holacust

the name of the author is all that I had to see about that..............I can't critisize though, it's almost their right to do this..........but it still isn't "true"..........sorry, it isn't.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

anyone interested in wermacht/nazi germany should read this book
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?r=1&ean=9780679772682

disspells a lot of common myths about the invovlement of german citizens in the holacust

While it is somewhat obvious the majority of Germans supported Hitler (all you have to do is watch one of his numerous speeches and see the crowd's reactions), the credibility of this author is questionable, since he, according to one reviewer, can't read German, and thus wouldn't be able to read his source material.
Book-source material=propoganda.

 

[Gambino]

the name of the author is all that I had to see about that..............I can't critisize though, it's almost their right to do this..........but it still isn't "true"..........sorry, it isn't.

what isn't true?

according to this book, the nazi party killed less jews than the german army did. it's an interesting study backed by documents for the gov't.
just cause the guy is jewish, i really don't see what the problem is.
he attacks the myth that hitler was the lone bad guy and every citizen was innocent and sheepish.
agree or not i suggest reading it

 

[Gambino]

While it is somewhat obvious the majority of Germans supported Hitler (all you have to do is watch one of his numerous speeches and see the crowd's reactions), the credibility of this author is questionable, since he, according to one reviewer, can't read German, and thus wouldn't be able to read his source material.
Book-source material=propoganda.

while their will always be critics, his book had acclaim even in germany
lotsa critics on both sides of his arguement, that's what make's it fascinating IMO
"Goldhagen has won acclaim for his ability to make harsh historical analysis interesting to a large public. He was awarded the prestigious Democracy Prize by the German Journal for German and International Politics, in that his work forced Germans to reckon with the phenomenon of pervasive and violent antisemitism, and as such it provided a corrective to any notion that an end to the Sonderweg of modern German history was at hand. The laudatio was given by Jürgen Habermas and Jan Philipp Reemtsma"

 

[Gambino]

That's about as laughable as me saying I read the cleveland plain dealer every day so what's this big fuss over global warming? It's not necessarily a "cold war" that has people concerned.........the concern is the EU parting ways with us and solidifying ties with China and leaving the U.S out. The U.S will of course try to rectify the situation with some bombs.........and therefore starting shit with the EU and China.........far fetched? maybe........but china and the EU are coming real close to requiring as much resources as we do..........and that's when you're going to see the bombs start flying. If you don't see that scenario as a distinct possibility, you're not paying attention to the world and you migtht need to start reading more journals than the detroit daily.

lol i was being sarcastic
i'm fairly well read
free press is the only actual physical paper i purchase

 

[Gambino]

you don't understand the simpleness of most of the people that constituted the german army.....and you don't understand the complexities of the situation. Yes, the german people bear responsibility for taking in with a man that told them they were the chosen people. And remember what happens to a young man when he goes to the military, and this is the case with the U.S military as well...........they DO become brainwashed pawns.....not mindless mind you, but they do as their told........and until you go through that kind of tearing down and then building back up, you can't understand it.

the question here is, when do you disobey an order? if shooting civilians is an order, what are you to do?

 

[redsamurai]

what isn't true?

according to this book, the nazi party killed less jews than the german army did. it's an interesting study backed by documents for the gov't.
just cause the guy is jewish, i really don't see what the problem is.
he attacks the myth that hitler was the lone bad guy and every citizen was innocent and sheepish.
agree or not i suggest reading it

it might be a good read.........but I'm going to refute one thing that I read in the summary, and that was the statement that people were given the "retributionless" option of not doing what they're told.........this is nonsense, probably based on one or two nebulous instances and then greatly expanded on by a bitter jew. I know for a cold hard fact that if you, as a weirmacht officer, refused the orders of a nazi party member.......you could be shot on site, at the least thrown in the brig.........I mean, what the fuck happens to a soldier who disobeys a direct order from his superior in this country's military?? I mean be serious............the germans have alot of blame resting on them, they were not innocent and sheepish..........but they were shrewdly manipulated........and by the time it dawned on them what they'd gotten into the machine was rolling.............kind of like the Iraq war huh? We fell for that one didn't we?

 

[Gambino]

it might be a good read.........but I'm going to refute one thing that I read in the summary, and that was the statement that people were given the "retributionless" option of not doing what they're told.........this is nonsense, probably based on one or two nebulous instances and then greatly expanded on by a bitter jew. I know for a cold hard fact that if you, as a weirmacht officer, refused the orders of a nazi party member.......you could be shot on site, at the least thrown in the brig.........I mean, what the fuck happens to a soldier who disobeys a direct order from his superior in this country's military?? I mean be serious............the germans have alot of blame resting on them, they were not innocent and sheepish..........but they were shrewdly manipulated........and by the time it dawned on them what they'd gotten into the machine was rolling.............kind of like the Iraq war huh? We fell for that one didn't we?

i agree, def manipulated and old class anixieties were reved up
for the record the author may be a jew, but he is not german and did not live there.
and his points on "not having to do what you are told" was about the citizenry
their is record of certain sections of people disobeying nazi commands with no retrubution cause hitler didn't want to ruffle unnessecary feathers.
like anything it is only one opinion and is up for debate.
good read though

 

[redsamurai]

i agree, def manipulated and old class anixieties were reved up
for the record the author may be a jew, but he is not german and did not live there.
and his points on "not having to do what you are told" was about the citizenry
their is record of certain sections of people disobeying nazi commands with no retrubution cause hitler didn't want to ruffle unnessecary feathers.
like anything it is only one opinion and is up for debate.
good read though

my grandfather had a gun put to his head............rommel intervened...........Rommel was the only weirmacht officer that could have done that, cause he was the best of course and Hitler knew it. But please beleive..........if you didn't have Rommels stroke...........you did as you were told.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

my grandfather had a gun put to his head............rommel intervened...........Rommel was the only weirmacht officer that could have done that, cause he was the best of course and Hitler knew it. But please beleive..........if you didn't have Rommels stroke...........you did as you were told.

The Nazis ran a tight ship, but even they were human.

 

[Mavafanculo]

no idea but that proves the point doesn't it?

niiiiccceeeee

 

[rsnoble-im-back]

Political bullshit. He'll veto it, congressman just trying to make much needed brownie points.

We are constructing huge military bases there..........you don't really think they'll leave trillion dollar ghost towns there do you? I think not. We aren't going anywhere.

 

[RottenWillow]

Political bullshit. He'll veto it, congressman just trying to make much needed brownie points.

We are constructing huge military bases there..........you don't really think they'll leave trillion dollar ghost towns there do you? I think not. We aren't going anywhere.

This is exactly the attitude that has allowed this "war" to continue for as long as it has. "they'll" do exactly what the american people allow them to do and not a damn thing more. Everyone is discussing this as if private citizens have no influence in what happens in this situation.

Obviously the president and key members of the federal government want a permanent presence in Iraq. They're certain the US needs control of that country for longterm American security...oil, friendly soil near Iran, etc. However, if/when enough solders have died with no evident progress then perhaps the growing number of americans who oppose continued military action in Iraq will action do something other than bitch about it on the Internet. If that happens then what Bush wants will become irrelevant. Pretty much the only time pesky private citizens really interfere with the important work of our federal leadership is when their decisions begin to negatively effect us in a personal way.

So this thing will be over and done with if enough voters call their Congressmen and demand a yes vote. It passes, Bush vetos, goes back to Congress again and passes with enough votes to make Bush's veto a waste of time. Game over GW Bush & Company.

 

[pintoca]

wtf did the site change my reference to an atomic bomb to an "Anadrol bomb"??? lol, wtf

 

[Razorguns]

This is exactly the attitude that has allowed this "war" to continue for as long as it has. "they'll" do exactly what the american people allow them to do and not a damn thing more. Everyone is discussing this as if private citizens have no influence in what happens in this situation.

Obviously the president and key members of the federal government want a permanent presence in Iraq. They're certain the US needs control of that country for longterm American security...oil, friendly soil near Iran, etc. However, if/when enough solders have died with no evident progress then perhaps the growing number of americans who oppose continued military action in Iraq will action do something other than bitch about it on the Internet. If that happens then what Bush wants will become irrelevant. Pretty much the only time pesky private citizens really interfere with the important work of our federal leadership is when their decisions begin to negatively effect us in a personal way.

So this thing will be over and done with if enough voters call their Congressmen and demand a yes vote. It passes, Bush vetos, goes back to Congress again and passes with enough votes to make Bush's veto a waste of time. Game over GW Bush & Company.

relax. troops will be coming home by next year.

1) repub's need that, or they'll be destroyed in the fed election
2) we can't afford the war any longer
3) repub's know either Bush can do it, on his terms - or the next dem president can do it for them.

Bush is just trying to save face. He still believes he might be able to salvage this. ha ha ha!

In 2008, democrats WON'T want the troops to come home. Isn't that funny. It makes sense. If troops stay in iraq, they will win the election easily by focusing on this.

r

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

He never intended to win a war. They got the oil. They didn't share of the wealth here, though. His cronies got filthy rich.

no they didnt get the oil. Iraq pumps less now than they did before.

 

[Mavafanculo]

no they didnt get the oil. Iraq pumps less now than they did before.

its not the oil, its the oil service contracts (infrastructure, pipelines etc)

its not protecting the embassey going forward, it was building the embassey

(see haliburton and subs)


btw, there's an argument to be made that one of the reasons we went to iraq was to create the current chaos that would keep their oil OFF the market in order to support the current high prices for years to come. Iraq was due to come off sanctions shortly and would have flooded the oil market. cheney and bus's oil business friends and saudi buddies would have been very unhappy.

always follow the money.

 

[roadwarrior]

wtf did the site change my reference to an atomic bomb to an "Anadrol bomb"??? lol, wtf

Pintoca... I was the one who said we don't us our arsenal. We have a lot of good men over there who walk around with targets on their backs while the so call combatants hide behind women and children. The women, children and old men are just as guilty for harboring the damn enemy as the enemy itself. They are subject to the same penalty. I have no issue with Napalm or anything else. We nuked Japan because continueing to fight the war conventionally would have let too many Americans die. I have no issue saying Americans are a lot more imporant to me than anyoen else. We went to Iraq. Whether I agree with being there or not, I do not want to see a single soldier die needlessly. We should be using cruise missles and high altitude bombimg to take out any village that harbors or assists the enemy. We should shoot to kill anyone who shows resistance. We should be absolutley ruthless in protecting American life.

I lived in France for 3 years. I would hate to see America become a sissy ass socialist society like that. The soccer mom politics of socialism is becoming entrenched in America. As Bill O'Reilly calls it... a culture war. I don't totally agree with everything he says but he has some good points. Goverment is not here to protect us from our our stupidity or to provide for us. We are responsible for ourselves. American Goverment should provide robust infrastrucutre, encourage the economy, provide strong defense including tightening our borders, and police the state against those who would harm others. We need to be the strong Americans of the past with a can-do attitude and self reliance not a bunch a sissy ass European socialists with open borders so the Mexicans and Islamo-facist bastards can steal our country and our way of life. I will gladly kill anyone who threatens my childrens's future of living free in America.

Yes... I am a hard ass. You can flame me, bomb me, or ban me but I don't have enough sensitivity to care.

 

[pintoca]

Pintoca... I was the one who said we don't us our arsenal. We have a lot of good men over there who walk around with targets on their backs while the so call combatants hide behind women and children. The women, children and old men are just as guilty for harboring the damn enemy as the enemy itself. They are subject to the same penalty. I have no issue with Napalm or anything else. We nuked Japan because continueing to fight the war conventionally would have let too many Americans die. I have no issue saying Americans are a lot more imporant to me than anyoen else. We went to Iraq. Whether I agree with being there or not, I do not want to see a single soldier die needlessly. We should be using cruise missles and high altitude bombimg to take out any village that harbors or assists the enemy. We should shoot to kill anyone who shows resistance. We should be absolutley ruthless in protecting American life.

I lived in France for 3 years. I would hate to see America become a sissy ass socialist society like that. The soccer mom politics of socialism is becoming entrenched in America. As Bill O'Reilly calls it... a culture war. I don't totally agree with everything he says but he has some good points. Goverment is not here to protect us from our our stupidity or to provide for us. We are responsible for ourselves. American Goverment should provide robust infrastrucutre, encourage the economy, provide strong defense including tightening our borders, and police the state against those who would harm others. We need to be the strong Americans of the past with a can-do attitude and self reliance not a bunch a sissy ass European socialists with open borders so the Mexicans and Islamo-facist bastards can steal our country and our way of life. I will gladly kill anyone who threatens my childrens's future of living free in America.

Yes... I am a hard ass. You can flame me, bomb me, or ban me but I don't have enough sensitivity to care.

I don't need to do any of those things bro, given yourself and your fear are your own worst enemy

 

[roadwarrior]

I don't need to do any of those things bro, given yourself and your fear are your own worst enemy

Fear my ass. I fear nothing including death... been too close to it before. I am prepared to do whatever is necessary unlike most of EU that I have ever met. Socialism is for week people who can't stand on their own two feet. Tolerance of muslims who want to force us to live by their fundamentalist sharia or how ever your spell their retarded expectation of so called law is foolish. They have made it clear that they will kill anyone who does not believe what they believe. As I see it, we should kill them first. As far as the rest of the soccer mom politics going on in America... it is a real problem. Open borders and "provide for everyone" mentality cost every hard working taxpayer too much. Why should I pay one penny for health care, housing, food or anything else for anyone but my family? Why am I penalized with a graduated tax system that punishes me for my success with higher percentage taxes? Why should the goverment try to take away my rights under the constitution to bear arms and speak freely? This world is a fucked up place and it's time for strong people to draw a line and fight for what is right. America needs to remain strong to protect all the candy assed EU when the shit hits the fan with China or the ragheads get together in some unified nation state that steals the bomb from Pakistan. I will not back down or retreat from the coming fight but I'm sure every EU pansy will welcome them with open arms until they destroy your countries like is happening inmuch of southern France being overrun by muslims. Then you will cry to America to protect you and save you. Maybe we will, maybe we won't.

 

[roadwarrior]

BTW... this is the end from my side. Talking American politics and policy with non-Americans is a waste of time. We can wait to see how things play out over the next few years.

The worst thing for America is that we will probably be saddled with Comrade Hillary Clinton or a completely inexperieced and unqualified Barak Obama as a president because Bush did not do what he had to do to win this war and too many Americans have lost the balls for real war. Either one will kiss their asses with attempts at appeasement and move us way too close to socialism. America is in a downward spiral and will follow Britain's lead as they declined to B player status after they could not retain/ control their empire in the last century. Empires and countries fail when they get too complacent and weak. Strong traditionalist Americans willing to fight might still save this country but only maybe.

I'm done with kind of discussion here and will stick to the steroid forum, training forum, or parenting and recipes in C&C.

 

[redsamurai]

do you know what capitalism is my friend? I think you don't, if you did........you'd wouldn't be talking about the U.S as "capitalistic"........it's all a sham. But you seem to have no problem with the government making the worlds finest military hardware do you? Ummmmm, who pays for that? Right........we do. So I guess it comes down to this question............is it fine for us to foot the military budget so that we can traverse the globe making everyone our bitches so that we dominate the earth's resources.....but it's completely unacceptable for us to all pitch in on one unified health care program that would keep all of our individual costs down...????

BTW... this is the end from my side. Talking American politics and policy with non-Americans is a waste of time. We can wait to see how things play out over the next few years.

The worst thing for America is that we will probably be saddled with Comrade Hillary Clinton or a completely inexperieced and unqualified Barak Obama as a president because Bush did not do what he had to do to win this war and too many Americans have lost the balls for real war. Either one will kiss their asses with attempts at appeasement and move us way too close to socialism. America is in a downward spiral and will follow Britain's lead as they declined to B player status after they could not retain/ control their empire in the last century. Empires and countries fail when they get too complacent and weak. Strong traditionalist Americans willing to fight might still save this country but only maybe.

I'm done with kind of discussion here and will stick to the steroid forum, training forum, or parenting and recipes in C&C.

 

[roadwarrior]

do you know what capitalism is my friend? I think you don't, if you did........you'd wouldn't be talking about the U.S as "capitalistic"........it's all a sham. But you seem to have no problem with the government making the worlds finest military hardware do you? Ummmmm, who pays for that? Right........we do. So I guess it comes down to this question............is it fine for us to foot the military budget so that we can traverse the globe making everyone our bitches so that we dominate the earth's resources.....but it's completely unacceptable for us to all pitch in on one unified health care program that would keep all of our individual costs down...????

You're right that the US is not pure capitalism of unfettered private business operated solely for profit. There are goverment controls and influences. I have some problem with goverment interference with a free market system but accept it as necessary though I wish there were some changes. In one post, I stated that goverment should encourage a strong economy.

I think we should have the strongest military in the world but I never said I agreed with being in Iraq for ideological or financial reasons. I said that once there we should use everything that we can to win and protect our soldiers. I am 100% opposed to open borders and to kowtowing to Islamic fundamentalists or anyone else that would attack America. I don't think we have a right in the modern world to be Vikings plundering the earth. We should use our strength to protect and secure America.

I do not support goverment provided health care, welfare, housing, food stamps or any thing other than short term help to get over a hump. I do not believe it is goverment's job to provide for us.

I really don't want to continue this as I get very heated on this topic.

 

[redsamurai]

eh.....I think we're congruent in our beliefs........although I support some form of social netting, especially health care.....I see no reason against socialized health care.

You're right that the US is not pure capitalism of unfettered private business operated solely for profit. There are goverment controls and influences. I have some problem with goverment interference with a free market system but accept it as necessary though I wish there were some changes. In one post, I stated that goverment should encourage a strong economy.

I think we should have the strongest military in the world but I never said I agreed with being in Iraq for ideological or financial reasons. I said that once there we should use everything that we can to win and protect our soldiers. I am 100% opposed to open borders and to kowtowing to Islamic fundamentalists or anyone else that would attack America. I don't think we have a right in the modern world to be Vikings plundering the earth. We should use our strength to protect and secure America.

I do not support goverment provided health care, welfare, housing, food stamps or any thing other than short term help to get over a hump. I do not believe it is goverment's job to provide for us.

I really don't want to continue this as I get very heated on this topic.

 

[roadwarrior]

eh.....I think we're congruent in our beliefs........although I support some form of social netting, especially health care.....I see no reason against socialized health care.

I'm glad we can debate and agree to disagree. That freedom is part of what makes America great. I'll leave this debate here.

Steve

 

[redsamurai]

I'm glad we can debate and agree to disagree. That freedom is part of what makes America great. I'll leave this debate here.

Steve

yeah, but that freedom is going to be taken away very shortly.........hold on to your guns, and it ain't no arabs or muslims in general you're going to be needing those guns for, it'll be your own people who've bought into the machine..............see ya in canada eh?

 

[Smurfy]

there are 193 different countries in the world.. I do not need to fill my head with their government and leaders and their views. I concern myself with one of those countries, the one I live in..

that concept doesnt make much sense if you think about it/
obviously the circumstances of other countries and their leaders DO matter otherwise we wouldnt be fighting a war in Iraq? Afghanistan?

It's easy to come up with one reason to hate GW, he lied to Congress. That's pretty detestable, doncha think?

It's true that Congress does not make strategic decisions other than to approve going to war.

But why is GW not held accountable for his lies, when Bill Clinton was nearly impeached for getting his dick sucked and lying about it?

fuck, Im not even a democrat.