HIIT - on empty or fueled? (Shadow?)

[Daisy_Girl]

So we all know I hate doing HIIT FTITM on empty, but will do so if it is best for fat loss.

But I was reading (just lurking) on another board (shame Daisy!) about how HIIT should be done fueled ...... treat it like a weight workout. Now, I have always treated it like a weight workout in some regards - need PWO nutrition, don't do everyday, etc. But they were pretty convincing as to why HIIT needs to be done fueled. i.e., muscle loss, inability to do a real HIIT workout (not being able to push it hard enough) ......


I know that for me, I have BETTER HIIT workouts fueled than on empty. I can push it harder and feel better after. But as mentioned, I will do whatever really is best for fat loss.


So what are the thoughts? (Shadow?)

 

[ck2006]

So we all know I hate doing HIIT FTITM on empty, but will do so if it is best for fat loss.

But I was reading (just lurking) on another board (shame Daisy!) about how HIIT should be done fueled ...... treat it like a weight workout. Now, I have always treated it like a weight workout in some regards - need PWO nutrition, don't do everyday, etc. But they were pretty convincing as to why HIIT needs to be done fueled. i.e., muscle loss, inability to do a real HIIT workout (not being able to push it hard enough) ......


I know that for me, I have BETTER HIIT workouts fueled than on empty. I can push it harder and feel better after. But as mentioned, I will do whatever really is best for fat loss.




So what are the thoughts? (Shadow?)

great question!

 

[Roonytunes]

I know that for me, I have BETTER HIIT workouts fueled than on empty. I can push it harder and feel better after. But as mentioned, I will do whatever really is best for fat loss.

So what are the thoughts? (Shadow?)

I'm not Shadow and I think he has a preference for HIIT on empty, but the Cathy Savage program I'm on strongly recommends HIIT fueled for all the reasons you mention above. This is one of those topics you're going to get mixed responses on depending on who your source is....

 

[Will2BLean]

I like this question! HIIT one empty usually leads me to me being dizzy and nauseous. Plus, I don't go NEARLY as fast as when I have done HIIT in the evenings.

 

[The Shadow]

Are we talking HIIT CARDIO I assume??

You have to understand that "feeling it" and "nearly as fast" are relatively subjective terms.

Of Course you can "go faster" when training on carbs....its why they are called "fast burners"........they are there when you need them, you are using those preferentially to any other fuel source.....is that a good thing??

Not if you want to maximize fat loss.

FACT:


If insulin levels are high - you CANNOT BURN BODYFAT.

That is an indisputable fact.


SO - regardless of anyones opinons......IF you are fueling in a way that bumps your blood sugar - you are WASTING your time doing HIIT and trying to burn bodyfat while insulin levels are high.

Period.

End of discussion

 

[*Bunny*]

FACT:
If insulin levels are high - you CANNOT BURN BODYFAT.
That is an indisputable fact.

^^ yup

Want your thoughts S...

Would you agree that you cannot burn fat in the presence of insulin period?

Also... "IF you are fueling in a way that bumps your blood sugar - you are WASTING your time doing HIIT and trying to burn bodyfat while insulin levels are high. "

^^ is this because you will burn that or any (blood sugar) first since the insulin that is present must be cleared for fat buring to start?

SO...to go a step futher if you avoid carbs specifically pre workout & pre cardio your body tends to burn stored body fat?

 

[The Shadow]

^^ yup

Want your thoughts S...

Would you agree that you cannot burn fat in the presence of insulin period?

Also... "IF you are fueling in a way that bumps your blood sugar - you are WASTING your time doing HIIT and trying to burn bodyfat while insulin levels are high. "

^^ is this because you will burn that or any (blood sugar) first since the insulin that is present must be cleared for fat buring to start?

SO...to go a step futher if you avoid carbs specifically pre workout & pre cardio your body tends to burn stored body fat?

Good idea Buns.....let me back up a minute.

Any carb will have a GI(glycenic Index) and a GL(Glycemic Load - another discussion on its own).

Here is the most straight forward explanation I could find:

Any meal or snack high in carbohydrates will generate a rapid rise in blood glucose. To adjust for this rapid rise, the pancreas secretes the hormone insulin into the bloodstream. Insulin then lowers the levels of blood glucose.

The problem is that insulin is essentially a storage hormone, evolved to put aside excess carbohydrate calories in the form of fat in case of future famine. So the insulin that's stimulated by excess carbohydrates aggressively promotes the accumulation of body fat.

In other words, when we eat too much carbohydrate, we're essentially sending a hormonal message, via insulin, to the body (actually, to the adipose cells). The message: "Store fat."

Hold on; it gets even worse. Not only do increased insulin levels tell the body to store carbohydrates as fat, they also tell it not to release any stored fat. This makes it impossible for you to use your own stored body fat for energy.

So the excess carbohydrates in your diet not only make you fat, they make sure you stay fat. It's a double whammy,




^^^^That is not my opinion, of Daisy's or Sassy's or Cathy Savage's......those are indisputable facts.


So......it is impossible to burn body fat when excess carbs are in the picture(cardio or no).


You dont have to totally avoid carbs altogether....but the impression that I get from a couple of posts is that they make HIIT easier, faster, "whatever", which THEY WILL if they are consumed too close to the hiit session.

Rule of thumb......if they are eaten early enough b4 the HIIT session - then they wont help from a performance standpoint....so why bother?


Buring carbs for energy is easy.

Burning fat for fuel sucks.....its slow and a bit inefficient(ever heard of fractured fats/ketones) but still beats the socks off of carb-fueled cardio sessions.

 

[The Shadow]

However, Insulin also drives your body to use more carbohydrate, and less fat, as fuel. And, insulin converts almost half of your dietary carbohydrate to fat for storage


EVERYONE who is tanking up on carbs pre-cardio and wondering why you arent dropping fat think about the above fact.

 

[*Bunny*]

Hold on; it gets even worse. Not only do increased insulin levels tell the body to store carbohydrates as fat, they also tell it not to release any stored fat. This makes it impossible for you to use your own stored body fat for energy.

^^ so in this scenario..
if your body stores carbs as fat = not being used for energy and...
this make is impossible to used 'stored body fat for energy"...

then what the heck does it use for energy??

Protein & Protein tissues, ie. muscle?

 

[The Shadow]

Same as any other time


What does the body use for fuel on a typical day(if you arent losing weight)??

 

[cindylou]

I'm not Shadow and I think he has a preference for HIIT on empty, but the Cathy Savage program I'm on strongly recommends HIIT fueled for all the reasons you mention above. This is one of those topics you're going to get mixed responses on depending on who your source is....

are you doing SOS?

 

[cindylou]

ok HIIT is done mostly for fat loss right? SO you would wanna do it at the best time for fat loss.

Steady state cardio is for burning extra cals? So can be done anytime.

right?

 

[The Shadow]

I hate the steady state vs. HIIT discussion....the same rules apply whether is steady state or HIIT - the point of both is to burn bodyfat


IF YOU NEED LONGER SESSIONS OF 45 MINUTES 3X TO LOSE FAT(UNLESS COMPETITION IS COMING UP) - then your diet is shit.

 

[ck2006]

I hate the steady state vs. HIIT discussion....the same rules apply whether is steady state or HIIT - the point of both is to burn bodyfat


IF YOU NEED LONGER SESSIONS OF 45 MINUTES 3X TO LOSE FAT(UNLESS COMPETITION IS COMING UP) - then your diet is shit.

lol alright then lol...

I'm learning so much again tee hee

 

[The Shadow]

lol alright then lol...

I'm learning so much again tee hee

Really.....its all about cals in vs cals burned.

2 Diets:

Diet 1 - 2000 cals per day with 400 target cals to burn via cardio daily

Diet 2 - 1600 cals per day.


If main cals are 1600....which makes more sense?

 

[*Bunny*]

Diet 1 because I get more food and I get to do cardio which I love!

Ill do it for you

 

[ck2006]

Really.....its all about cals in vs cals burned.

2 Diets:

Diet 1 - 2000 cals per day with 400 target cals to burn via cardio daily

Diet 2 - 1600 cals per day.


If main cals are 1600....which makes more sense?

Kay here is another question for you, lets just say for some reason you did 1600 cals, lost weight, then plateau, went down to 1400, lost weight, then plateau, then went down to1200... you get the point on no cardio at all. After which you can't loose anymore, then what?

 

[The Shadow]

Diet 1 because I get more food and I get to do cardio which I love!

Ill do it for you

to continue that thought.......what does excess cardio do??

Think hormonally

 

[florencia]

Same as any other time


What does the body use for fuel on a typical day(if you arent losing weight)??

I am going to be brave and answer even if I am mistaken...
I think the body uses for fuel on a typical day, is the daily caloric intake.

 

[*Bunny*]

to continue that thought.......what does excess cardio do??

Think hormonally

For me I was always eating to sustain my activity level and never had issues with fat or muscle loss.

Please enlighten me

 

[The Shadow]

Flor is def on the right track.

 

[*Bunny*]

Same as any other time


What does the body use for fuel on a typical day(if you arent losing weight)??

I guess my question was more time of day specific, i.e. early morning cardio on empty where there was no cals consumed to be used for energy...

and by

having preworkout carbs before cardio....

"^^ so in the latter scenario..
if your body stores carbs as fat = not being used for energy and...
this make it impossible to use 'stored body fat for energy'...

then what the heck does it use for energy??

Protein & Protein tissues, ie. muscle?"

If it's not primarily muscle or protein based tissues, then my question is what is it using for energy (with a preworkout meal of carbs, 1st thing in the morning, with NO other cals consumed to use for energy)

 

[The Shadow]

you are still using PART of the carbs for fuel....remember the slin' stored approx 50% as fat

 

[que_66]

What is the best course for someone who is hypoglycemic and has to eat something upon waking?

Is there anything that can be eaten upon rising that wouldn't interfere with the intended fat burning of HIIT?

 

[The Shadow]

hypo is related to blood sugar.
Have you been officially dignosed with hypo??

 

[Sassy69]

What is the best course for someone who is hypoglycemic and has to eat something upon waking?

Is there anything that can be eaten upon rising that wouldn't interfere with the intended fat burning of HIIT?

There I'm goign to say the hypoglycemia needs heavily outweigh the "optimal fat burning' requirements of HIIT. So address what is needed for the hypoglycemia - because in a sense isnt' that just getting you to where your body needs to be to be "normal". Anything above and beyond that is what I would consider to be excess carb in the context of what Shadow is talking about.

Sometimes when I've had to do cardio in the AM I am freekin starving and there's no way I'll not pass out trying to get thru w/o eating something. That's when I'll get some protein cals in me like egg whites - its practically nothing but its not carbs, its not fats (not much) and its enough cals to address the hunger.

I also don't think that you can always attempt to be 1000% optimal in what you do --- ok maybe if you are on a tight track for a national competition, but even then, if a tiny little bit of carb is what you need to deal w/ a hunger in the morning is enough to completely f* up your whole program, then you need to rethink your program, your time table or your goals.

 

[katdav]

Great thread!

 

[que_66]

There I'm goign to say the hypoglycemia needs heavily outweigh the "optimal fat burning' requirements of HIIT. So address what is needed for the hypoglycemia - because in a sense isnt' that just getting you to where your body needs to be to be "normal". Anything above and beyond that is what I would consider to be excess carb in the context of what Shadow is talking about.

Sometimes when I've had to do cardio in the AM I am freekin starving and there's no way I'll not pass out trying to get thru w/o eating something. That's when I'll get some protein cals in me like egg whites - its practically nothing but its not carbs, its not fats (not much) and its enough cals to address the hunger.

I also don't think that you can always attempt to be 1000% optimal in what you do --- ok maybe if you are on a tight track for a national competition, but even then, if a tiny little bit of carb is what you need to deal w/ a hunger in the morning is enough to completely f* up your whole program, then you need to rethink your program, your time table or your goals.

Shadow: Yes.

Sassy: That's where I was getting confused. (Imagine that.) So if I eat just enough to satisfy the glucose gods so that I don't see stars & pass out - I would still be able to have an effective HIIT session albeit not as effective in the fat burning realm as on an empty stomach? Or would am exercise after food be like pissin in the wind?

 

[Daisy_Girl]

ok HIIT is done mostly for fat loss right? SO you would wanna do it at the best time for fat loss.

Steady state cardio is for burning extra cals? So can be done anytime.

right?

I think this post has been adderssed, but I just wanted to chime in. To me - I am not sure why you would want to just "burn extra calories". I think the whole point of cardio, for 99.9% of people is to burn fat.

And like Shadow said, the argument on SS v HIIT is old and tired, lol. But again, to me, this is why I think HIIT is better than SS in general for losing fat. You may burn more fat as a percentage in SS cardio, but if the total calories is more, intense cardio is better.

Scenerio ....

SS cardio for 20 min: say you burn 100 total calories, 50% calories from fat = 50 fat calories.

Intense cardio for 20 min: say you burn 200 calories, but only 30% calories from fat = 60 fat calories

Math argument, but to ME it doesn't MATTER where those calories are burned. What matters is TOTAL calories. Not to mention you have a higher caloric after burn with HIIT and higher intensity cardio.

Sometimes when I've had to do cardio in the AM I am freekin starving and there's no way I'll not pass out trying to get thru w/o eating something. That's when I'll get some protein cals in me like egg whites - its practically nothing but its not carbs, its not fats (not much) and its enough cals to address the hunger.

.....if a tiny little bit of carb is what you need to deal w/ a hunger in the morning is enough to completely f* up your whole program, then you need to rethink your program, your time table or your goals.

I was thinking these exact same things.

1) If FTITM HIIT is too hard on empty, I was thinking about taking 1/2 a protein shake (about 10g protein, like 1-2g carb in it) just to ease the feeling of "being on empty".

2) I cannot imagine, at this point FOR ME, that a small amout of food before FTITM HIIT is going to make or break me. Maybe in a few months - but right now, my body is just happy I am moving, lol.

**********

This thread pretty much did what I wanted it to do - good discussion.

 

[Sassy69]

Personally I'd also throw in the fact that if you do only one type of cardio - SS or HIIT on the premise that one is more effective than the other, you are leaving yourself to get more conditioned to the one type when variety is extremely valuable as a general rule.

 

[florencia]

to continue that thought.......what does excess cardio do??

Think hormonally

I think excess carido eats away the muscle, beacuse body cannot get enough oxygen to the "large amount of muscle"...
So in order to keep body with oxygen, it eats away the muscle, because body will always find a way to survive.
Now about hormonally...I think that for the same reason it is trying to survive, it shuts down some of its hormonal functions, because it is not able to reproduce itself...
Like women would have amenorhea, because they cannot sustain two persons alive.
So I think hormonally body loses, and muscle wise it also loses...
The only thing not lost is fat!

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Personally I'd also throw in the fact that if you do only one type of cardio - SS or HIIT on the premise that one is more effective than the other, you are leaving yourself to get more conditioned to the one type when variety is extremely valuable as a general rule.

Good point ... both can have a place in a workout plan.

 

[Sassy69]

to continue that thought.......what does excess cardio do??

Think hormonally

Makes you horny?











Oh wait, wrong forum....

 

[ck2006]

Makes you horny?











Oh wait, wrong forum....

LMAO

 

[florencia]

Makes you horny?











Oh wait, wrong forum....

Yum!

 

[Miss24k]

to continue that thought.......what does excess cardio do??

Think hormonally

Body becomes stressed and then Cortisol goes up.

 

[superqt4u2nv]

Personally I'd also throw in the fact that if you do only one type of cardio - SS or HIIT on the premise that one is more effective than the other, you are leaving yourself to get more conditioned to the one type when variety is extremely valuable as a general rule.

Word also HITT in a comp prep is hard especially when you get about 8 weeks out. You start getting all kinds of aches and pains and for me HITT makes that worse even on an eleptical.

 

[The Shadow]

Body becomes stressed and then Cortisol goes up.

CIRCLE GETS THE SQUARE!!!!!


Exactly......you will literally drop lbm on a session by session basis



NOW - to piss everyone off......

I did NOT say that a small fatty/protein meal like cashews etc would not work precardio





Its why I recommend nuts on my general plan as snacks

 

[Roonytunes]

I did NOT say that a small fatty/protein meal like cashews etc would not work precardio

AHA.....yes, this is what I do for the most part! Also, if PM cardio is your only option, a intermediate solution could be to have your last complex carb meal about 3-4 hours beforehand, so it is somewhat digested and out of the system by the time you do your cardio. Then you can have some carbs afterwards to refuel as necessary.

 

[Sassy69]

The point is finding a balance in everything. This goes back to the human body being an amazingly efficient machine that runs on sort of a push / pull system that is constantly rebalancing itself and relies on bichemically driven gateways and responses to the balance of everything else to keep things running. If you artificially introduce a state of extreme with the intent of getting a particular result, it kills the balance. You can't go for the selective result. There's always a cost somewhere else.

Things like bodybuilding (making a significant change in your system for a short term / event) are driven by pushing the extreme for that extreme look, but with the assumption and accommodation of a rebound period. There's always a cost.

For less extreme changes like a long-term bodyfat / weight reduction - that's where you need to make the changes more slowly and more balanced so that you can adjust down your body but never sacrifice any of the balance your body likes to run with to keep everything "normal".

 

[Miss24k]

CIRCLE GETS THE SQUARE!!!!!


Exactly......you will literally drop lbm on a session by session basis

 

[Daisy_Girl]

Ahhhh ... so if one finds FTITM HIIT to be too difficult (lightheaded, etc) ... maybe a small amount of almonds would help? (like .5-1oz?)

 

[Sassy69]

If you are that drained that you are light headed, eat SOMETHING. I tend to do a couple egg whites as there is really nothing there but a little bit of protein and it settles well. Anything else is chancey for me in the morning. Almonds are pretty inert as well and you will get some protein, some fats but not enough to completely destroy your diet.

 

[The Shadow]

Yep...like Sassy mentioned...do the alomds BEFORE hand......the fat takes a bit to hit the system.

Imo - HIIT cardio should be over fairly quickly - so lighheadedness should be avoided

 

[Sassy69]

Yep...like Sassy mentioned...do the alomds BEFORE hand......the fat takes a bit to hit the system.

Imo - HIIT cardio should be over fairly quickly - so lighheadedness should be avoided

LOLOL QUICK RUN! Before the lightheadedness hits!


I either wake up w/ a raging I GOTTA EAT NOW OR DIE stomach pains or I'm just fine. If I try to make myself wait to eat, it just freekin' hurts to much.

 

[Daisy_Girl]

I, personally, have never gotten lightheaded from HIIT - but sometimes you just feel like you are dragging (for lack of a better explanation), like you are swimming through mud. Wondering if a handful of almonds, or small protein shake, would give a little more OOMPH to the workout FTITM.

But then again, maybe CB will help with that too .....

 

[The Shadow]

try the almonds......


CB is a great product to use when you need a bit of giddy-up.


Sassy - lol


I mean lightheadness FROM the hiit......

 

[Sassy69]

try the almonds......


CB is a great product to use when you need a bit of giddy-up.


Sassy - lol


I mean lightheadness FROM the hiit......

I was suggesting to quick do your HIIT before the lightheadedness gets you.... ..... its a joke.....