help from the mods....

[big calvin]

ok here's my problem....i use insulin cause iam diabetic..now when i do atkins i dont use insulin from advice that MR.X gave me....but when i do like body for life i do use insulin....now i dont know whats gonna give me better results...keto with no insulin or body for life with insulin.....couldnt i do atkins and only use insulin at night and of the fast time(humalog or R)? or should i just go with the healthy type eating?

thanks guys,
calvin

ohh, ps.
im gonna start a cycle of winny and a little t3. but i think the winny might increase my glucose levels so i think i might have to go with BFL and insulin....whats your thoughts?

 

[blood_drinker]

Bro:
You have to be careful with this. I would get your docs recommendation before starting any diets. Take my suggestion lightly, PLEASE. Keto diets must be used without insulin during the no carb fase, since that is the norm. There isnt any insulin supposed to be used with keto because insulin slows / stops lipolysis while its levels are spiked. When a normal person goes on a keto diet he will get a diabetics breath (keto breath) and he will not have any insulin present, just like diabetics. During a CKD, the carb up fase will refill your muscles with glycogen because insulin sensitivity will be greatly spiked due to the many carbs, but not for you. During the carbup fase, I would say use your insulin, so as to refill your muscles with glycogen thus allowing you to get the pumps you need in the gym. That is the logical explanation for your question. I am unsure of how long your insulin levels spike up to when you inject, so I wouldnt use a carb based diet - for maybe they will be spiked for too long thus not allowing proper lipolysis to occur - or enough of it.

BUT PLEASE, CONSULT A DOC BEFORE THIS.My suggestions can make sense, but take them lightly.

I did some research and look at what I got for you

From heartinfo
A low-carbohydrate, calorie-restricted diet can help people with type 2 diabetes get their blood sugar under control when standard dietary changes and drug treatment have failed, according to California researchers. At least in the short run, the diet may help patients avoid having to take insulin to control their disease. After 8 weeks on a diet with 25% of calories from carbohydrates, type 2 diabetics had a significant improvement in blood sugar levels compared to those seen with a diet with 55% of calories from carbohydrates, the authors report in the December issue of the Journal of the American College of Nutrition.

Of the 28 patients in the study, 9 were treated with a standard diet containing 55% carbohydrates, and 19 with sulfonylurea agents, but none of the subjects were able to achieve target glucose levels with those therapies, according to Dr. Lois Jovanovic and colleagues at Sansum Medical Research Foundation in Santa Barbara, California.

After 8 weeks on the 25% diet, the subjects had a drop in hemoglobin A1c, a marker for blood sugar control. When placed on the 55% carbohydrate diet for another 12 weeks, hemoglobin A1c increased, a marker of worsening blood sugar control.

Patients who had previously taken sulfonylurea drugs also lost weight while on the 25% diet, but the benefits of the diet were not dependent on this loss, according to the report.

The benefit of insulin treatment in type 2 diabetes is controversial and the data "suggest that dietary therapy may sustain remission for an interim and allow the reintroduction of oral hypoglycemic therapy in the event that low-carbohydrate diet therapy alone is not successful," the authors note.

The following comes from AGINFO, and it says you can eat a balanced diet with everything needed for a normal person fat loss diet (40-30-30) , including a post workout meal. Id recommend you take the insulin post workout to fuel your muscles with needed recovery nutrients.

Why Must Diabetics measure the amount of food they eat?

Foods must meet, but not exceed, the prescribed number of calories and amounts of protein, carbohydrates and fats. The amount of food prescribed will help to make sure that weight stays at normal levels and that blood sugar levels are controlled.

Most diabetic diets are made up of about 50% carbohydrates, 20% protein and 30% fat. The carbohydrates on a diabetic diet are primarily complex carbohydrates, including fruits, vegetables and whole grain breads and cereals. These complex carbohydrates in prescribed amounts are thought to produce relatively small changes in blood sugar levels.

Coming from HCRC.org

A ketogenic diet may or may not have side effects, depending on the individual person. It is certainly riskier for overweight individuals with medical problems such as heart disease, hypertension, kidney disease, and diabetes than it is for overweight people with no health problems.

In closing I think it is of prime importance to consult your doctor. We can all tell you different things and give you different theories, but you have to watch out. Also you have not given us enough info . FOr example, my grandma is a diabetic but also is obese and has cholesterol problems, thus a keto diet is not the answer for her. CONSULT YOUR DOCTOR.

Hope I helped bro. keep me posted

 

[big calvin]

thanks man...but i didnt really understand what u said...i was going to do aSKD...atleast for a while...

i didnt really mean high carbs but more like ....well.....50% protein, 40% carbs, 10% fat....

i drink alot of skim mlk as my meals inplace of MRP cause i can stick to it with ease......im about 460-470 lbs now and well starting over after a long layoff from training......

thanks blood drinker...any other quotes u can send me, would be greatlly aprciated(sp).....

 

[big calvin]

ohh and i do have a doctor thats i like but like i like know more about weights and "fat loss" then weight loss like he knows...u know what im talkin about....i found out i was diabetic about 5-6 months ago and didnt go to the doctor till about 1 month a go...he put me right away on insulin N at night 15IU...it wasnt working so i used some of my dad insulin(hes also diabetic) humalog 5-10iu before each meal and its way better control but still well over the norm....i inject 6 times a day of only humalog and sometimes L or N in the mornings just to stabilize over the day(or peaks or valleys)......

 

[blood_drinker]

Yeah I know those kinds of docs. I have no clue as to how you are treated. I have limited knowledge on diabetes, and have no idea how many times you inject and whats your limit. On a CKD, you would inject only during the carbup, while on a 40-30-30, you would inject 4-5 times a day, since there are 4-5 meals with carbs in them, in which a normal person would have an insulin spike. However, I dont know how to administer your insulin. For example, if you have a potato, and you want the insulin spike of a potato, how much insulin do you inject? (I probably sound completely clueless, but I have no idea how to administer your insulin!) What about post workout, where you would have 3tbsp of honey? Can a diabetic eat such foods? ....I doubt it .
Even if you could, how much insulin you inject post workout would differ as to how much you inject in the morning yada yada. With 6 meals a day it starts to get complicated. The solution, I think, is to go on a Cycling Ketogenic Diet. In which 5 days are no carbs, and the weekends are carbups. CKD is what I would do. No Insulin for the 5 days of the no carbfase, and insulin on the weekends. However, I am still to work out a solution for you during the weekends. I asked some bros over at the anabolic board some questions and I have not gotten any replies. Its a touchy subject.
Do I make sense?

 

[diamonddiceclay]

atkins should be good for a diabetic-if you have atkins books, read them for advice

 

[big calvin]

well heres the thing...almost anything i eat i have to inject...even like protein, no carbs and no fat jumps it about 50-60 points....a normal blood sugar us 70-80 fasting level...mines without insulin 300-350...if i use insulin 250(im working on lowering it)... a normal personal insulin shouldnt ever go over 140....so u can see im out of control.....i normally inject 5-10iu before i eat and sometimes 15 if its higher in caloires.....if i did atkins i cant use insulin cause of all the fat i would be eating....sence im just getting started with injecting(past 2-3 weeks i think) i want to get use to injecting i guess cause there really isnt a cure but i can get better control over it...thats the whole thing, i dont want to do something im not gonna be doing for life...if i do a diet i want it to be for life cause diabetes is for life...im pretty sure im gonna have to be on insulin for the rest of my life..i was in denile(sp) but now i just accepted it. im diabetic and need help.......ill wait for your info BD. thanks for all the help so far........im even thing ducking slim fast would do me some good.....

 

[blood_drinker]

Right now, my thoughts are that you definetely cannot give up carbs for a lifetime. Also, keto does not seem to be the best alternative due to the high fat - with your weight that does not seem like the best option.
I have a lot things going through my head about this topic, but Ill tell you what: I am going to try to talk to a professional nutricionist I know and get her to give me her insights on this topic.

Youll get my reply soon enough

 

[big calvin]

thanks man. your being a huge help.....

 

[Onenameleft]

Diamond, reread Atkins' book. He says he believes his diet to be beneficial for type 2 diabetics. If you are an insulin-dependent diabetic, then I wouldn't suggest any type of ketogenic diet for you. Insulin release and the feedback mechanisms between glucose and ketones are key to the ketogenic diet being safe. If your body can't create insulin, then you have no means to stop the creation of ketones, and you can experience ketoacidosis. For insulin-dependent diabetics proper diet along with insulin supplementation is very important to long term health. Please be very careful doing anything that drastically changes your blood glucose levels. You need to better get your diabetes under control. You need to figure out how to time your injections and meals so that your glood glucose is always between 80-120. Go find a doctor that specializes in the treatment of diabetes, and please be safe. Ketogenic diets are not indicated for Type 1 (insulin-dependent) diabetics.

 

[MS]

I'll echo Onename's advice. Are you truly insulin dependant, or just severley insulin resistant?? If you're taking insulin shots and they're not controlling your blood glucose then get yourself to a diabetic specialist. Adding in more insulin in this situation is just plain dumb. In this is the case, a keto diet may be ideal for helping you control your blood glucose, but do it under strict supervision. It is important to eliminate liver and kidney disease etc... before embarking on a keto diet, and generally keep an eye on your progress. You should also be on glucose disposal drugs such as ALA, Metphormin or similar. I have to be honest, with your obesity and severe insulin resistance you may want to consider becoming a lowcarb dieter for life. Later on you can add veggies and stuff, but initially you should think about doing straight keto. I would not recommend a CKD since this will wreak havoc with your insulin insensitivity. Get that under control first, then worry about fine-tuning your diet.

 

[big calvin]

well im reading this book i just bought its a type 2 diabetic fat loss guide...what its saying is ketosis is the way to go....not for type 1 cause in that cause there pancreas does not create any insulin or very,very small amount and ketosis for type 1 is ketoacidosis...but for type 2 it can reverse all side effects of diabetes.....im starting to think SKD is the only way i can trully control this....i mean even if i take a myoplex or MRP my sugar goes up but i can eat alot of meats,cheese,heavy cream and it lowers to under 200(a number i cant reach with insulin! and i mean over 70iu!) ....i was gonna ask my doc for some avandia cause with the metaphormin can fuck my liver up(i have high enzymes) so i think keto with avandia and exercise should put me on my way....

thanks to everyone,
big calvin

 

[Mr.X]

Big Calvin,

I think we talked about this over and over in the past. There is a problem with doing atkins for you, and you know what it is. PM me we'll try to workout something further.

MS, I'm glad to see you back.

Mr.X

 

[big calvin]

MR.X u got PM

 

[blood_drinker]

MS is back ! Another guru for the boards !! You prolly dont remember me but I remember LOTS of your great advice....it has helped me alot
hey big calvin, like was said, get a better doctor. He will give you a full interview, youre not telling us everything like onename and ms said.

sorry i couldnt help on this one
Hey mrx, whatever your solution turns out to be for big calvin, post it here. Im intersted in learning this ...

 

[Molle_23]

If you are a dibetics and don't take your insulin during a cycle, you will probobly pass out after some days and you will not gain at all - just feel like shit - before you go into coma. So don't be stupid and do that ! I'm a dibetics as well, and I've been trying different kind of steroids before. I used to increase the doseage instead of cut it down. Just so you know...

 

[big calvin]

BD:
u wrote "youre not telling us everything like onename and ms said."

what did u mean? iam not telling u or the doctors not telling me???

molle:
its good to have more diabetics on this board

thats the thing if i took wintrol i just know i would have to use some slin cause i cant control it now any other way really.............hey are u type 1 or 2?

 

[blood_drinker]

I meant you arent telling us what kind of diabetes you have, and you could possibly have other health probs as well, such as high cholest levels etc. I think your situation definetely requires a doc man.

 

[da big thinker]

big calvin,

with all due respect,at 460-470lbs,why are you considering winstrol???especially after such a long lay off.just want to understand the reasoning behind this!!!

 

[big calvin]

bd:
well im type 2(i think) see i dont really know cause type 2 can control it with diet,exercise,oral pills and maybe insulin...type 1 has to use insulin.....and theres no way i can get my blood sugar to a normal about without insulin...even if i workout it goes it!! its fucked up!!

big thinker:
well pretend your taking to a 110lb nerd who gets bittin up every day and feels like a whip...would u blam him if he wanted to use roids? im the same way....if a women has no chest and got implants, who would blam her?
see where im going with this....

 

[da big thinker]

big calvin,

i empathize w/ your sentiments,although valid to a certain degree...nevertheless,winstrol is not your answer....heck,steroids is not your answer!at least,not at this stage of the game.your confidence factor,can be achieved by sticking to a balanced diet,a good training regimen and proper recuperation.once results start to surface,you will gain confidence and reassure yourself.
winstrol,will not help you lose weight or fat...it will preserve your LBM while you restrict your calories...i just think you should focus on the primary goal here...being to lose as much fat as possible and drop your bf% to a satisfactory level for YOURSELF.READ THE ANABOLICS BOARD and inform yourself on cutting drugs,to reach your final conclusion when you have reached a tolerable level and a level where the drug in hand will make a difference.hope this helps you in some way!!!

 

[Molle_23]

Big calvin, I take 6 injections/day, humalog and insulatard.

 

[MS]

Big calvin, I hope you've PM'd MR X like he said. Have you had a full check-up for heart, liver, kidney disease for a start? If you have any probs there then you really need to do a keto under medical/dietetic supervision. But I really think that you need to knock off eating carbs at least until your insulin sensitivity returns to more normal levels. Please don't put this off any longer. You've been waffling around on this diet issue for too long and if you keep it up your pancreas may just pack it in all together and then you WILL be insulin dependant for life. That's if your heart doesn't give up first. I'm not scare mongering, just very concerned that you're stalling (in denial as you said) and that this could have serious repercussions. And steroids at this stage will most likely worsen your insulin resistance and possibly raise you blood pressure (not to mention the orals will tax your liver even more than it already is). Don't even think about it right now.

 

[big calvin]

molle:
im also on 6 injections day, i only mainly use humalog...but im starting to also use L in the morning....how much total insulin are u on? im going on....over these days at over 70iu a day.

ms:
well see the thing is, as MR.X knows, everytime i try to do keto i end up cheating and my sugar end up at over 500...so what im gonna try to do is a balanced eating plan,weight training, and cardio program and see where that lands me.....your right ms, im always changing my plan even before i start. i read to much. and start second guessing myself.....if the diet i layed out doesnt work , well atleast im not eating junk food and drinking cokes right....so ill just see if this works, if not then ill have to change it but by then ill have more will power to stick to a keto or something along those lines......

i just wanted to say thanks to everyone for responding..i didnt think so many people would reply...thanks again....

 

[Onenameleft]

Calvin,
I just want to add something. I can't stress to you enough how bad an idea it is for you to self-administer insulin to control your blood sugar without getting sound medical advice from a doctor that knows about diabetes and your situation. If you're taking that much insulin to keep your blood sugar down, then you're eating way to much. You need to see a specialist and get a proper diagnosis. You say you think you're type 2, but you're taking 70ius/day of insulin. That's more than most type 1 diabetics take. A doctor can run a 12 hour glucose tolerance test where they measure your fasting glucose, and then measure it at 30 minute intervals to see how you react to different things. A doctor could then tell you how much you need to be eating and how much insulin you should be taking a day. Just eating and taking insulin in response to glucose changes is very dangerous. Staying healthy with diabetes is all about moderation and control. You want to keep your blood sugar in a target area all the time.. You want to avoid the huge ups and downs that comes with eating too much and taking insulin when you blood sugar is high. Those ups and downs, can eventually lead to high blood pressure, liver and kidney failure, blindness, poor circulation to the extremities, etc.. This is a serious condition, and you shouldn't be playing by ear. Best of luck to you and your health.

 

[big calvin]

thanks onenameleft,
well the reason im not really telling my doc about all this is cause well he tried to put me, a 460+ guy on 1800 calories! i mean i think 2500 is dame low anuff . but anyways, my dads diabetic so he like tells me what he thinks about what im doing.....my sugar gets really high only when i a. eat a lot! or b. drink something that has carbs...i think the "drink" , any drink(milk,coke,juice) jumps it the most out of all foods. milk which is low GI ups it like u wouldnt beleave! but they only real reason my sugar gets so high is cause i eat something i shouldnt have ....but im tryin, im tryin and im gettin there.....

 

[blood_drinker]

calvin , bro, no offence, but 1800 cals will do you much better than going on a cookies and milk binge and raising your sugar levels over 500. so what if you lose muscle....youll probably be MUCH happier at a leaner bf% with less muscle than what you are now. Tell your doctor that you need more cals, and he´ll give you his opinions. You can back it up with all the stuff you learned since you say you read so much ...but seriously, STICK TO YOUR DOCS PLAN MAN ! YOURE PLAYING WITH FIRE HERE BRO ! It seems you do read way too much and do too little. Reminds me of me in the start. I wanted to try and know everything so quick, and yet Im so young. Stick to something, work hard, it will pay off. SOoner rather than later, I promise. And plus, we´ll be here to support you calvin.

Good luck, and get your ass to the doctor.

 

[big calvin]

well your right on the 1800 caloires thing.....but i think i have come up with a plan i can live with and it just right for me.....ohh and dont worry i have to go to the doc within the week....thats BD, ill keep u guys posted on how im doing........

 

[AnabolicDiabetic]

Calvin...you need to go by what your blood test results are and NOT some BB diet. How many times a day do you test your blood sugar?

If you are diabetic, I don't care what kind of diet your on, you need insulin- period! We've talked a few times before and it seems as though you are still in denial about being diabetic. My advice to you is to not do AAS, t3, or anything else until you have your BS levels under control, see your doctor regularly, and see a therapist possibly to help you deal with the fact that you are diabetic. If this sounds harsh, I'm sorry, but I know where you are and you need to stop fooling yourself- this disease will kill you if you don't treat it- AD

 

[big calvin]

thanks AD, i know im diabetic im just trying to find the best way to control it....like ok u tell me if this is normal, i had 1.5 cups cheerios(multigrain) and 1.5 cups skim milk this morning, before that mean my BG was 303, i took 10IU of humalog and about an hour after the meal, it was 430! how can that be? i injected 10iu.......i test my blood sugar everytime before i inject(so about 6-7 times)

 

[AnabolicDiabetic]

Cal, all that means is that 10iu's is not enough. Next time try 13...if BS is still high, try 16 the next time....still high try 20 the next time...normal to high try 22...get it? There is no "normal" for diabetics. Everyone is going to react to insulin and food and exercise etc differently. Let your blood sugar levels guide you and you need to be on either lantus or humulin U(long acting insulins) in addition to your humalog shots because they are not enough by themselves. This way you have a basal rate insulin and a bolus insulin for meals. The long acting keeps you stable over fasting periods and the short acting metabolizes each meal.

 

[AnabolicDiabetic]

In addition, if your BS was mid 300's before your meal, 10iu(for me) wouldn't even get my blood down to normal if I didn't eat. I'd have to take about 15iu to get my BS levels down to between 80-180. Then, for myself, and that meal, I would take about 20-25iu of insulin depending on time of day and exercise etc. SO, for myself, if I woke up and my BS was 330, I would take 40iu of insulin to both lower my already high BS and to take care of the food I was going to eat. Don't use my dosage's for yourself but this should give you some idea of how to approach it. BUT, YOU NEED TO SEE YOUR DOCTOR AND TELL HIM EVERYTHING!!! IF YOU DON'T TRUST HIM, FIND A NEW ONE. I know what you are going through- I've disliked every doc i've ever had, but you have to stick with it- AD

 

[MS]

OK Big C, when you see your doc PLEASE ask him a few questions so we can help you the best we can. Are you truly insulin DEPENDANT (in other words your pancreas has stopped producing insulin) or are you insulin RESISTANT (in other words your cells have stopped responding to insulin). Trust me on this one Calvin because if you're insulin dependant then you need to get you insulin doses right. If you're insulin resisitant then you are doing more harm than good by injecting extra insulin. I don't care how bad your will power to stick to a diet is......if you're insulin resistant then you HAVE to get your shit together ASAP. If you're insulin dependant then you HAVE to get your shit together ASAP. Either way you need to be fully informed about EXACTLY what's wrong with you (other than obesity). There are other options besides a keto diet, but it's still up to you to make it stick. No matter what diet you choose you have to be willing to give up stuff that you LIKE to eat (such as cheerios and milk, bread, pasta etc...) and start eating some stuff you may not like as much (such as fresh green veggies). No more excuses because you're still young and you health and well being are on the line.

 

[big calvin]

ok, heres the DL on my situation....

about 8 months ago, i was fine, my blood sugar was 80 and i didnt have any problems....after while i went to the doc and had some tests done...my testosterone was low, thyroid was normal(but im on synthroid cause it was low),liver enzymes where a bit high,BG was that day 140(it was high but i just ate) ok after that i said fuck it im doing anavar and that was that!...3 weeks into 25mg of anavar only cycle my BG was 550...i wasnt eating good at all...eating anything i wanted,dank coke and gatorade like it was air! i was stupid, i thought the roids was more powerful and the all mighty and that i would still lose weight....i was wrong...dead wrong!!! after that my dad got pissed and said i was going on atkins and thats that....first day on atkins my fasting BG was 315....after 2 weeks it went down to fasting BG OG 205.....i did straight atkins...ate untill i waant hungry but not full...and after that i got cocky and started to think "hey i got this in control" and started to eat a little bread here,and little milk there...and before i knew it i was eating pasta,rice and back to my old ways...and havent stoped let! i know i have to do something about this......i know i can stick to low carbs if i really really wanted to or HAD to....now my sugar is to out of control...some stuff can be controled with insulin some cant....im going out of my mind!!!!....i know atkins is what would be best and thats what im lenning to now cause like i just cant, but cant do moderation...its all or nothing!.....hope this helps with your guys questions.....

 

[Onenameleft]

I'm going to say this again. If you actually followed Atkin's induction diet for 2 weeks, and your blood sugar was 200, then you REALLY need to see a doctor and find out what kind of diabetes you have. You can't make any kind of informed decision without knowing exactly what the situation is. Don't do anything else until you see a doctor. If your blood sugar is over 300 and certainly if it got over 400, I'd go to the ER, and not leave until someone had told you exactly what you needed to do. When the doctor gives you a diagnosis and tells you what to eat, eat that, and exactly that. Take your blood sugar when he tells you to, and take your insulin as he says. Don't vary. Will power isn't a question anymore. You have to get this under control, and you need a doctor to tell you how to do it. None of us can acurately advise you without knowing the results of lots of tests. Don't leave until you clearly know if you are type 2 or insulin dependent, and you have a plan for how you are going to get your blood sugar under control. Best of look, man.