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HCG Debate

Do you think HCG should be ran throughout long cycles? (esp those w/nandrlones)

  • Yes, HCG should be ran throughout the cycle!

    Votes: 31 23.7%
  • No, HCG should only be ran post cycle!

    Votes: 48 36.6%
  • Yes it should be ran throughout the cycle but also included in PCT!

    Votes: 35 26.7%
  • HCG should never be used. I hate the shit!

    Votes: 17 13.0%

  • Total voters
    131

marvelous54

New member
I was explaining to a friend that I feel that when a person is on and extended cycle (14 weeks or longer) they should consider HCG during cycle. He says he will be just fine running it post cycle. Here is the cycle in question:

D-bol 50mg/ed wks 1-6
Deca 400mg/ew wks 1-12
Test-cyp 500mg/ew wks 1-14
Proviron 50mg/ed wks 1-20
Tren-ace 100mg/eod wks 15-20
Winny 50mg/ed wks 15-20
Test-prop 100mg/eod wks 18-20
Clen wks 11-20
Aromasin 20mg/ed wks 1-20

I suggested he also run HCG @ 250mg/eod wks 1-20 (and of course a heavy duty pct)!

What is your opinion? Do you think with a cycle like this one should just run HCG post cycle or do you think it should be included throuout the cycle?
 
too much HCG during cycle, once weekly dosing perhaps. you are looking at a serious increased gyno risk. though some people can run that just fine (but its a definite risk increase)
 
Macro, so you do think it needs to be ran during the cycle just at a less frequent interval?

At what dosage do you feel it should be administered?
 
marvelous54 said:
Macro, so you do think it needs to be ran during the cycle just at a less frequent interval?

At what dosage do you feel it should be administered?

yes, frequent dosing like that will mean frequent spikes (and pretty much continual HCG exposure with high plasma levels exacerbated by those injection spikes)

perhaps 1/7-10days- though its going to vary by user response to HCG as well as side effects (for some dosage and frequency needed to get effect may be detrimental)

dosage is really going to depend on user response.

its not cookie cutter
 
Not an hcg expert, but if you run it for an entire cycle, and then post cycle your body will not respond to hcg like you would like. too much hcg is bad for you.
 
IMO the whole cycle needs an overhaul... if he is not a high level national competitor there is no reason to run that many chemicals for that long... ridiculous IMO
 
I run it 3x a week for the final 3 weeks of a cycle and then begin PCT soon after. You keep yourself shutdown if you use it, so why would you run it post cycle? It should be used to prime your nuts for PCT.
 
Slyder190 said:
I run it 3x a week for the final 3 weeks of a cycle and then begin PCT soon after. You keep yourself shutdown if you use it, so why would you run it post cycle? It should be used to prime your nuts for PCT.

HCG does not shut you down... if you run too high of a dose it will shut down LH

but at reasonable theraputic dosing, it will stimulate and get things going

take a looky here

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376177

good reference thread

this one too:
http://www.isteroids.com/steroids/Post%20Cycle%20Threapy%20(PCT).html
 
I personally think running HCG during a cycle is merely a waste of HCG and time. I just don't think it will aid in teh true recovery at the end of the cycle in ANY WAY. people may disagree but with all that shit you are taking the HCG is doing nothing but teasing your body, there is nothing constructive coming out of it in my oppinion.

now as for the cycle, why are you only running the propinate 2 weeks? why not run it say 6? Also i'd start the tren A at week 13......otherwise thats a pretty kick ass stack right there.. i'd have some letro on hand just in case gyno symptoms kick in
 
i dont think thats too many compounds, perhaps if he was running it all for the entire duration it would be overkill. Test Deca Dbol in the beginning and Test Tren Winny in the end is a good stack. It just looks like so much because of the Proviron Aromasin and Clen in there. It looks good IMO except I would run the prop at the end for weeks 16-20 instead of for just 2 weeks. No need to run HCG everyday, maybe once per week at 1500IU's, but even then i dont think its necessary. Hit it hard at the end with 500IU ED for 10days straight when you begin your PCT and you should recover nicely.
 
drrman said:
I personally think running HCG during a cycle is merely a waste of HCG and time. I just don't think it will aid in teh true recovery at the end of the cycle in ANY WAY. people may disagree but with all that shit you are taking the HCG is doing nothing but teasing your body, there is nothing constructive coming out of it in my oppinion.

there really is no firm data (either clinical or anecdotal) if mid cycle or infrequent use of HCG during cycle improves recovery or that it acts to the contrary.

so at this time its really a matter of preference (HCG does provide benefits, but it also comes with risks)
 
get456 said:
HCG does not shut you down... if you run too high of a dose it will shut down LH

but at reasonable theraputic dosing, it will stimulate and get things going

take a looky here

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376177

good reference thread

this one too:
http://www.isteroids.com/steroids/Post%20Cycle%20Threapy%20(PCT).html


Good read. I'm no scientist, but I still don't see how starting HCG and Nolva before an ester has cleared is of any benefit. The article makes recomendations and brings up some points, but still has no real world studies or examples to back it up as far as how well it restores one's HPTA when coming off a cycle before an ester has cleared. I also just don't see how HCG will not keep you shut down. That's just me.
 
there are certainly those that theorize that ocassionally stimulating the gonadal tissue does reduce atrophy and thus make recovery easier (there is nothing to refute this either)
 
I personall wouldn't do another cycle without it, but only at low-dose as my cycles are relatively small. 250 eod or ed after long ester clears depending on how I feel.

but that's just me
 
Great question,

I have no idea, have done long cycles and always done Clomid or prefer HCG at the end for pct.

Have a bunch of it here and as usual in the middle of a longer cycle, so I think I will try it at about 1500 iu twice a week for four weeks.

Will let you know what happens.

When I say longer cycle, I started this a couple months ago, planning a cycle for September, Just doing Test E at 1 gram per week.


Fina,
Winny
Test
Primo
Russian d-bol for 3-4 weeks. I would do it longer but always feel like I am going to explode.

This will be about 12 weeks, then back to test.

Just doing test now, and no real plans to go off after the above cycle, but doing HGC prior may be interesting.
 
macrophage69alpha said:
too much HCG during cycle, once weekly dosing perhaps. you are looking at a serious increased gyno risk. though some people can run that just fine (but its a definite risk increase)

question. the gyno risks are associated with the aromatase effect on the tes produced by the testies while stimulated by hcg, correct?
if there are no other gyno producing actions by hcg wouldnt a well planed tes cycle that included an anti aromtase negate this side?

drrman said:
I personally think running HCG during a cycle is merely a waste of HCG and time. I just don't think it will aid in teh true recovery at the end of the cycle in ANY WAY. people may disagree but with all that shit you are taking the HCG is doing nothing but teasing your body, there is nothing constructive coming out of it in my oppinion.
without taking the above example cycle as the norm. considering the time involved to increase testicular size and reverse atrophy. would not a reduced atrophy of the testicles decrease the recovery time at the end of the cycle. for instance if your testicles normaly atrophy to 60% of thier normal size during cycle. but with intermitten hcg dosage during cycle, at the end of cycle your atrophy level is 85/90% normal size, therefore reducing the hcg dosage and time required to bring the testies up to normal size and production capacity. would this not (by logic not studies since the studies have not been preformed) decrease recovery time and make for a better pct experience?

macrophage69alpha said:
there are certainly those that theorize that ocassionally stimulating the gonadal tissue does reduce atrophy and thus make recovery easier (there is nothing to refute this either)

true to my knowledge but much of what is recomended in all aspects of gear usage is theory since the studies are not likely to be done due to the fact there is little or no financial gain to these studies. there are studies done but to few. with the growing popularity of HRT perhaps more AAS studies will be done but due to the permanent nature of HRT i doubt many will focus on this aspect of gear usage.

thanks for consideration of my questions
 
Ulter said:
It makes recovery easier because it gets your testes started after being asleep during the cycle. It does NOT restart the HPTA while the steroids are still in your blood, but it does restart a part of the process. Just do PCT with and without it and then tell me which way you recovered faster.
questionable.

there is a study on pubmed that shows that HCG administered along with test cyp keeps intratesticular testosterone at above-normal levels (26% IIRC). problem is it's only for 3 weeks...but the test cyp solo group had next to nothing in terms of ITT...
 
The only reason you would use HCG during cycle is if your trying to stay fertile. HCG is a luteinizing hormone that turns on your testicles manually. Its still your pituitary gland, that needs to send a signal to your testicles to start producing, when you take HCG your just by passing your pituitary gland.
 
I've only got one testicle due to a testicular tortion and I get freaked out when it shrinks to the size of a peanut. 250-500iu EW is plenty to keep him in shape.

In addition, if I use hcg throughout my time on, recovery is soooo much quicker. I'm on pretty much full time now, but I take a break at least once a year and run pct.

I've never found hcg to provoke gyno, but I'm just lucky that way.
 
i think HCG should be ranthrough out a long cycle, but not a whole lot....like an 18 week cycle that includes decca, i would probably hit it 5 or 5 times, spready throughout and include it in my PCT.
 
I have changed my opinion on this topic since it was originally posted,


Only need HCG for pct, does not add anything to the cycle itself.
 
You should be finishing with the hcg around the time the esters clear. So if you're taking short esters, you should be doing it towards the end of your cycle. If you're taking long esters, you should be doing it a week after your last shot.
 
-Unlike to some beliefs here HCG will shot you down. Try it while you are off gear and see for yourself. Feels good for few days then you feel like shit for a while longer.

-HCG for PCT? Tried it and only made my PCT longer because I was shot down. No Good IMO. Finish it then do PCT separate. Recover a lot quicker

-it is a good idea to keep you nuts in shape throughout the cycle. So HCG throughout the cycle at about 250-750 2x a week is plenty good.

Peace
 
drrman said:
I personally think running HCG during a cycle is merely a waste of HCG and time. I just don't think it will aid in teh true recovery at the end of the cycle in ANY WAY. people may disagree but with all that shit you are taking the HCG is doing nothing but teasing your body, there is nothing constructive coming out of it in my oppinion.

now as for the cycle, why are you only running the propinate 2 weeks? why not run it say 6? Also i'd start the tren A at week 13......otherwise thats a pretty kick ass stack right there.. i'd have some letro on hand just in case gyno symptoms kick in

Drrrman I remember we had a spat about this awhile back. I'm beginning to see your point now that it could be just a waste during cycle, but I'll buy that insurance policy.

I believe a short, 2-3 week HCG treatment in the middle of my 16 weeker is cheap insurance. The price is negligable and I believe that temporarily stimulating the tissue is a good idea during a long cycle. Although the nuts may shrink back down, it seems like they would have less total time in 'hibernation' and that that would be a positive thing.

I cannot understand why someone would run a dose of HCG consistently throughout an entire cycle. That is asking for Leydig Cell desensitization and a much harder recovery in PCT.

I agree with drrman that by far the biggest benefit of HCG is during PCT, but a quick round mid-cycle seems like a cheap insurance policy to me.
 
The thought behind taking it during the cycle is the fact that at the end the nuts never went dormid and they are ready to go.
The best analogy I can use is like coming out of a comma after a year of innactivity. Do you think you are going to perform the same way as before?
Not realy, it will take you awhile. But if you keep on moving around and keep the muscle moving it will be a breeze. I can tell you that using HCG during the cycle improves my ability to recover and I hold on to 90% my gains. At such low dosages I doubt HCG will adversely affect you.
 
Me personally, I run it 3x a week for the final 3 weeks of my cycle, and actually will use it for around 5 consecutive days till 48 hours prior to the beginning of my PCT.
 
Slyder190 said:
Me personally, I run it 3x a week for the final 3 weeks of my cycle, and actually will use it for around 5 consecutive days till 48 hours prior to the beginning of my PCT.

This is pretty much what I do; end of my cycle meaning around the time the esters clear.
 
I bounced back from a 15 weeker of test and tren E for 10 weeks just fine. No HCG and sporadic AIFM usage.

Depends on the person.

People here thinks a one-size fits all PCT regiment is gonna work for everyone?

I had HCG just in case, never felt like I needed it.
 
This cycle is the first time I have used HCG and I started after being on for 14 weeks because I was totally shut down. I couln't nut for shit, and my scrotum was completely shrunken. I started with 250 iu eod for 2 weeks, and now am doing 500iu once a week for the remained of my cycle, and a couple weeks thereafter. So far I have had a very positive result. The boys are back and I have had no problems.
 
Agreed,my balls barely shrunk during 500mg ew Test E,maybe 20% smaller,but using hcg 500iu a day for 10 days,2 weeks after cycle,then onto CLomid,on 10th day of hcg now,feel great all around,no crashing,or loss of gains yet.(3.5 weeks post cycle)
 
So do you guys usually run it the last couple of weeks while still on AAS? Or do you start the HCG as soon as you stop AAS?
 
boston789 said:
So do you guys usually run it the last couple of weeks while still on AAS? Or do you start the HCG as soon as you stop AAS?

I'm sure that's up for even more debate. I run it about a week after my last shot of Test-E. The problem with running it earlier, imho, is that you risk jumpstarting your nuts too early--before the esters cleared your system. When you stop the HCG, there's still all that synthetic test in your system and your nuts just throttle back again.

The idea of all this is to have a smooth transition. Let the test levels fall off, jumpstart your nuts with hcg/clomid, then wait for your body to settle out in homeostasis w/out anything--i.e. a soft landing...
 
from what i understand...and im also no expert but using the hcg at the "right" point in a cycle can be crucial as using it with tren youll need to start earlier and with other things like deca for example around week 4 and another benefit ive heard is that your pct afterwards not including the hcg will respond better and quicker not too mention keeping your balls from shrinking away
 
Well if one is using a long acting ester i.e test e, the test will be in your blood for about 2 weeks after your last shot. So it would probably make sense to start using the HCG after that two weeks is up? Or one week after your last shot? Or the day after your last shot?

I like using the 10 days, 1000 ius ed method...
 
boston789 said:
Well if one is using a long acting ester i.e test e, the test will be in your blood for about 2 weeks after your last shot. So it would probably make sense to start using the HCG after that two weeks is up? Or one week after your last shot? Or the day after your last shot?

I like using the 10 days, 1000 ius ed method...

That seems about right. I think I waited two weeks after my last shot of Test-E, I did 500 iu's eod for about 2 weeks. It worked great. Very soft landing.

Be careful with overdosing HCG. Less is more. If you give yourself too much, you desensitize your leydig's cells and then you create a shutdown of a whole other type. Try 500 iu's eod or even e3d to start. You'll feel it, trust me. I got the worst bacne and most horrific sex drive ever during my HCG treatments!
 
beachstud said:
That seems about right. I think I waited two weeks after my last shot of Test-E, I did 500 iu's eod for about 2 weeks. It worked great. Very soft landing.

Be careful with overdosing HCG. Less is more. If you give yourself too much, you desensitize your leydig's cells and then you create a shutdown of a whole other type. Try 500 iu's eod or even e3d to start. You'll feel it, trust me. I got the worst bacne and most horrific sex drive ever during my HCG treatments!

In order to desintisize I think you need to use more than 5000iu in a week
I usually do 1000iu E4D with great result.
Bump on the sex drive, in my case I go nuts if I use 1000-1500iu in a single shot. I guess it all depends on the body weight also. If you weigh 250+, 1000iu is nothing
 
Varga said:
In order to desintisize I think you need to use more than 5000iu in a week
I usually do 1000iu E4D with great result.
Bump on the sex drive, in my case I go nuts if I use 1000-1500iu in a single shot. I guess it all depends on the body weight also. If you weigh 250+, 1000iu is nothing


Nah, I did 1000ius ed for 10 days straight the end of the last cycle and I was fine. You need alot of HCG for a long time to cause leydig.
 
boston789 said:
Nah, I did 1000ius ed for 10 days straight the end of the last cycle and I was fine. You need alot of HCG for a long time to cause leydig.

Yeah, you're right. I was just saying less is more. I've heard of guys doing ridiculous amounts of this shit which is bad.
 
boston789 said:
Nah, I did 1000ius ed for 10 days straight the end of the last cycle and I was fine. You need alot of HCG for a long time to cause leydig.

Good info, just did not venture into higher dosages than about 3000iu a week.
 
Posted on Nutritional Supplements and Fitness Supplements For Improved Body Contour and Sexual Prowess | Primordial Performance


HCG - Unraveled

By Eric M. Potratz (Email)

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.

HCG unraveled –

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given level of LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production. (recovering full testosterone production is a topic for another article)

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!



The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production) 20





In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

Based off the above information, an optimal dose of hCG during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. Keep in mind, that the half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hCG at least 4 days apart for the optimal "peak and valley" replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hCG shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hCG stimulation.

If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose) Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hCG should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap –

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.




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nice post brandon , i read this study b4 and that's what convinced me to use hcg during cycles , that's what i'm doing from now on.
 
nice post brandon , i read this study b4 and that's what convinced me to use hcg during cycles , that's what i'm doing from now on.

i haven't used HCG, but if I did, I would use it during cycle as well. would start around week 3 and use it till the end of my cycle at 500iu's per week.
 
I'm looking at doing blast and cruise at what stage do I run hcg and at how much.


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