Fina & HPTA Recovery....my current cycle..

[Stillgoing]

Ok - I'm 36yrs old, 6'2, 260, between 10-15% bf. I was shut-down hard after a test/deca cycle last summer. It took a good 6 months and 2 HCG/nolv/clomid runs to get my levels back to 400 total test. I'm running prop/fina right now. I am going to go 8wks on the prop. My current thought was to run the fina only 4wks to attempt to make recovery from it easier. I am going to run HCG weeks 6-8 and start clomid 3 days after last prop shot.

Question: would running fina 6wks instead of 4wks negatively impact my recovery process, or, will it make little difference? If it won't make a big difference, I would prefer to get a couple more weeks of it in.

I'd appreciate any thoughts......thanks.....

 

[Only1eagle]

From what I have heard Fina shuts you down. No matter how much you take or how long your on.

So I would say go 6 weeks, and deal with recovery then.

 

[40butpumpin]

Ok - I'm 36yrs old, 6'2, 260, between 10-15% bf. I was shut-down hard after a test/deca cycle last summer. It took a good 6 months and 2 HCG/nolv/clomid runs to get my levels back to 400 total test. I'm running prop/fina right now. I am going to go 8wks on the prop. My current thought was to run the fina only 4wks to attempt to make recovery from it easier. I am going to run HCG weeks 6-8 and start clomid 3 days after last prop shot.

Question: would running fina 6wks instead of 4wks negatively impact my recovery process, or, will it make little difference? If it won't make a big difference, I would prefer to get a couple more weeks of it in.

I'd appreciate any thoughts......thanks.....

Hey, bro. I did 4 weeks of tren and I was shut down VERY hard. Would I have been shut down any worse if I had continured two more weeks? I honestly do not know. Are you doing ed or eod injects of tren? What dose are you doing? Looking back, for me 6 weeks of 75mg+ would be too much.

One thing I'll tell you bro is that I was shut down much harder with tren than I ever was on deca and I've run deca at least 4 different times. But I guess everyone responds differently and I may be less sensitive to deca than you so that may not help you very much.

One thing I would strongly suggest is if you stop your prop on week 8 then don't start the HCG until week 10. Then run it two weeks, wait a few days and then start your Clomid. I don't see any point in running HCG with your blood levels of test still high. I just don't see how HPTA will respond to HCG that way. I heard of doing what you've suggested and even running HCG mid cycle, however, after some thought and research of my own, I've come to the conclusion that it is a waste. But if someone has other info I'd love to hear about it.

Good luck, bro!

 

[Stillgoing]

Re: Re: Fina & HPTA Recovery....my current cycle..

Hey, bro. I did 4 weeks of tren and I was shut down VERY hard. Would I have been shut down any worse if I had continured two more weeks? I honestly do not know. Are you doing ed or eod injects of tren? What dose are you doing? Looking back, for me 6 weeks of 75mg+ would be too much.

One thing I'll tell you bro is that I was shut down much harder with tren than I ever was on deca and I've run deca at least 4 different times. But I guess everyone responds differently and I may be less sensitive to deca than you so that may not help you very much.

One thing I would strongly suggest is if you stop your prop on week 8 then don't start the HCG until week 10. Then run it two weeks, wait a few days and then start your Clomid. I don't see any point in running HCG with your blood levels of test still high. I just don't see how HPTA will respond to HCG that way. I heard of doing what you've suggested and even running HCG mid cycle, however, after some thought and research of my own, I've come to the conclusion that it is a waste. But if someone has other info I'd love to hear about it.

Good luck, bro!

40,

Why wait till week 10 to start HCG? Prop will be out 3-4 days after last inject. So, won't I be "naked" from weeks 8-10? Also - my understanding of HCG is that it in itself shuts you down. The effect we seek is the re-sensitization of LH. So, the theory is run HCG while still on to resensitize, then when exo test ceases, you hit clomid to begin recovery. Thoughts??

 

[Stillgoing]

Re: Re: Fina & HPTA Recovery....my current cycle..

Hey, bro. I did 4 weeks of tren and I was shut down VERY hard. Would I have been shut down any worse if I had continured two more weeks? I honestly do not know. Are you doing ed or eod injects of tren? What dose are you doing? Looking back, for me 6 weeks of 75mg+ would be too much.

One thing I'll tell you bro is that I was shut down much harder with tren than I ever was on deca and I've run deca at least 4 different times. But I guess everyone responds differently and I may be less sensitive to deca than you so that may not help you very much.

One thing I would strongly suggest is if you stop your prop on week 8 then don't start the HCG until week 10. Then run it two weeks, wait a few days and then start your Clomid. I don't see any point in running HCG with your blood levels of test still high. I just don't see how HPTA will respond to HCG that way. I heard of doing what you've suggested and even running HCG mid cycle, however, after some thought and research of my own, I've come to the conclusion that it is a waste. But if someone has other info I'd love to hear about it.

Good luck, bro!

By the way, I assume that is one of your daughters in your avatar. She is very cute!!....

 

[buffdoc]

Hey Bro,
I agree with a lot of what 40BP says. You may find tren is kind to you, and you're just very sensitive to Deca. Who knows?
One thing though, and I know we've been round and round about this, but I think HCG during the cycle is a good thing. Get some leydig cell hypertrophy happening. Don't want to boost my test AND estradiol levels just when I'm trying to bring the axis back on line. Am I off base here?

PS: 40BP, cute kid! My girl's 10, boy's 13, gotta love 'em!

 

[Stillgoing]

Hey Bro,
I agree with a lot of what 40BP says. You may find tren is kind to you, and you're just very sensitive to Deca. Who knows?
One thing though, and I know we've been round and round about this, but I think HCG during the cycle is a good thing. Get some leydig cell hypertrophy happening. Don't want to boost my test AND estradiol levels just when I'm trying to bring the axis back on line. Am I off base here?

PS: 40BP, cute kid! My girl's 10, boy's 13, gotta love 'em!

Doc, HCG during the cycle as opposed to after, or, both?

 

[Citruscide]

I did 6 weeks of fina... it slammed me hard. Real hard. All the clomid and Nolva in the world didn't do shit. IF I had some Hcg at that point, I'm sure it would have worked...

However, why go on 4 if you can do 6??? I dont think there will be any more or less shut down, you will be shut down at 4 weeks... 2 more weeks won't matter.

c-ditty

 

[Stillgoing]

I did 6 weeks of fina... it slammed me hard. Real hard. All the clomid and Nolva in the world didn't do shit. IF I had some Hcg at that point, I'm sure it would have worked...

However, why go on 4 if you can do 6??? I dont think there will be any more or less shut down, you will be shut down at 4 weeks... 2 more weeks won't matter.

c-ditty

Is this THE c-ditty??.....j/k......thanks for responding, good point.....

 

[bebaumax]

Stillgoing, in answer to your question, basically, there isn't going to be a big difference between 4 weeks and 6 weeks, so you might as well keep going.

Now, have you thought about a Dbol bridge? Or even, if you had it/could afford it, an Anavar bridge? If you're really concerned about the time it's going to take to get things back to normal after having run tren, then why not make your post-cycle recovery as far out from the cessation of the tren as possible?

If you have it, I'd also consider running your prop for 10 weeks. Maybe even lowering the dose for weeks 9-10.

Hmmm.. I'm going to have to explain myself here.. this would be a bit easier in conversation.. lol Basically, the BB community as a whole is a great community, but in general, one of extremes. All carbs, no carbs, all taper-cycles, no-taper-cycles, etc. I don't believe that tapering is going to get your body to start making any test, yes, as long as there's exogenous test, and you're already shut down, you'll stay shut down. However, your muscle growth is based on, and used to a certain amount of test, e.g. 500-750mg/wk. If you go from 750mg/wk to 0mg/wk, that's going to be quite a shock to the system in terms of overall strength and ability to keep it, even if you get your nuts back in a day, that's only ~150mg/wk. Why not lower your dose for a few weeks to 250mg/wk and see if you can get your body accustomed to maintaining its current size/strength at that dose, and then come down a bit further. You can see where long, or "never-ending" cycles start to make a lot of sense, and a lot of gains, when done properly. There are some people implementing this basic method already, and don't even really realize they're doing it. That's basically why I'd run an extra couple weeks of prop, to help solidify your gains. You'll also be pushing your recovery back 2 more weeks, and giving your system more time to adjust from being "shut down" by the tren.

To tren and deca. Personally, I've never experienced greater "shut down" from either of these than any other anabolics. The difference is that they decrease libido while test and other anabolics increase libido. I think this is where a certain misconception or misperception of being shut down arises. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen anything that shows that tren or nandrolone shut you down "more" than anything else. I don't even see how this is possible. Either your body is producing its own testosterone, or it's not.

The rest of your recovery, etc., I think is easily addressed by a lot of other very knowledgeable board members, I'm just offering you a few things to think about.
-B

 

[buffdoc]

Doc, HCG during the cycle as opposed to after, or, both?

I meant during the cycle only. If you use it AFTER the cycle, then your test and estrogen go up; this further delays your recovery.

 

[Canuck4]

I suggest running it in the middle of the cycle and then again at the end with Clomid therapy.
It should restore HPTA faster.

Doc, HCG during the cycle as opposed to after, or, both?

 

[machaveli]

i took 500mg/ test week with fina and i lost my sex drive for about 1 1/2 after my cycle but i was still able to get it up.....

 

[40butpumpin]

When it comes to being shut down, time on is not your friend. The more time your on, the harder you're shut down and the harder it is to come back. If you look at a worst case scenario where someone is on for a long time, their nuts shrink all up and stand a chance of never coming back. So that tells me there is a gradual increase of the degree to which one can be shut down. Is it linear, who knows? But I know it's not like one day you're doing fine and the next you can't come back anymore because you're too far gone. It's a gradual thing and the more time on the worse it is. Will 2 weeks make a difference? Well, it will definitely be harder to come back but will it be impossible? I doubt impossible but definitely harder. In fact if the decline is a linear one, it will be exactly 150% harder.

As far as HCG, you can become desensitized if on for too long, but not for a short burst like two weeks. I haven't used HCG with exogenous test still in my system because I don't believe my body sees the need to get things rolling again with the high test levels still there. I realize that HCG is a LH mimicker and it acts at the testicular level as opposed to the hypothalamus (sp?), however, this feedback system in our body is very complex and is designed to maintain a proper balance of things. Whether the pituitary is up and running or not yet when HCG is introduced, I still feel that there are processes at work that will counteract the HCG because of the high test levels still in the body. My opinion is to allow the test levels to drop and then introduce the HCG so the body sees the need to bounce back. As far as 8-10 weeks it's actually 1 week I was thinking as you would stop the test week 8 and then start HCG week 10, only week 9 you would be without anything except diminishing test levels. That's how I see it good or bad right or wrong.

 

[40butpumpin]

Oh yeah, that's my "little princess," Nicole. She's 6 and my youngest of 4 (3 girls total). I can't begin to tell you how much she lights up my life. A while back the other kids were saying she's ugly so from that minute on she became my "beautiful little princess." Every single day I remind her how beautiful she is. Well, not only is she convinced of that now, she's sick of me saying it. lol

But thanks for the compliment guys, and yes, you gotta love kids! But little Nicole sure has me wrapped around her finger I'll tell you!

Her picture's there because I just love her so much.

 

[granby140]

fina made my libido ) for a few weeks after

 

[gunner44]

Ig you guys are so concerned about HPTA shutdown and recovery, why not try SHORT cycles, or SHIC's ?

ALso, why use clomid at all post recovery ? Nolvadex is much more effective for me, and I dont miss the acne on my shoulders and all the crying at the Lifetime Movies the old lady makes me watch.

 

[40butpumpin]

I'm sold on Realgains & Nelson short cycle theory. For me it'll be three repeated 3 week on/4 week off cycles. Take a 7 week break after the 3rd, then repeat the process.
At age 38 18 weeks a year being on is plenty.

What are you doing about dosages, bro? Could you please describe what a 3-week cycle would consist of dosage-wise?

Thanks, man.
40

 

[Stillgoing]

Thanks for the responses guys. Now I'm more confused than ever!!!

 

[Stillgoing]

From Zyglamail:
HCG is a glycoprotien that mimics our bodies own LH, having said that and we know that the body will reduce output of a hormone that is introduces externally taking HCG will work at returning the size and reversing atrophy to the testis since it mimics LH. However there is a down side and that since we are getting LH externally via HCG our body will not need to produce its own. With that in mind, I personally feel the best time to use HCG is at the tail end of a cycle of short esters, or just post cycle with long esters. Taking HCG while androgen levels are too high for the body to recover will reverse atrophy so that once androgen levesl diminish post cycle your testis are in a better position to start producing on their own. However LH release is what gets the testis going and since you have been on cycle LH level have also been suppressed so regardless of what you take you still have to wait for the body to respond and start producing LH again.
-------
This is the theory I was following for running HCG weeks 6-8. Then continue aromosin and run clomid after cycle. This differs from 40s view and I'm sure others. Any other thoughts??

 

[40butpumpin]

...However LH release is what gets the testis going and since you have been on cycle LH level have also been suppressed so regardless of what you take you still have to wait for the body to respond and start producing LH again...

The bottom line question to me is: will the testicles start working with the introduction of HCG despite high exogenous androgen levels?

If the answer is yes than I am wrong.

Sorry bro, for send making a simple question hard!

 

[bebaumax]

The bottom line question to me is: will the testicles start working with the introduction of HCG despite high exogenous androgen levels?

If the answer is yes than I am wrong.

Sorry bro, for send making a simple question hard!

Yes.

 

[Keep it beefy]

40

yes, you said it yourself. hcg acts at the testicular level. meaning that regardless of what the supraphysiological hormone levels are doing up in your hypothalmus and ant. pituitary, hcg will exert the same effect on the testes. the only worry is doing it too long while on cycle, as this could cause desensitization of the testes to testosterone.

 

[40butpumpin]

40

yes, you said it yourself. hcg acts at the testicular level. meaning that regardless of what the supraphysiological hormone levels are doing up in your hypothalmus and ant. pituitary, hcg will exert the same effect on the testes. the only worry is doing it too long while on cycle, as this could cause desensitization of the testes to testosterone.

Thanks, man.

Again, I'm sorry my steering anyone in the wrong direction.

 

[Stillgoing]

Thanks, man.

Again, I'm sorry my steering anyone in the wrong direction.

40, you provoked a good discussion. Thanks.

 

[gunner44]

I personally think that on a short 2-3 week cycle an individual can increase their previous dosages 50% to 100% so long as they still controll estrogen when using AAS which can convert to estrogen.

I know Mr Montana believes that short cycles are not an excuse to use more gear, but I happen to dissagree.

When only on for 2-3 weeks you need IMMEDIATE receptor saturation.

 

[aeon]

Stillgoing, in answer to your question, basically, there isn't going to be a big difference between 4 weeks and 6 weeks, so you might as well keep going.

Now, have you thought about a Dbol bridge? Or even, if you had it/could afford it, an Anavar bridge? If you're really concerned about the time it's going to take to get things back to normal after having run tren, then why not make your post-cycle recovery as far out from the cessation of the tren as possible?

If you have it, I'd also consider running your prop for 10 weeks. Maybe even lowering the dose for weeks 9-10.

Hmmm.. I'm going to have to explain myself here.. this would be a bit easier in conversation.. lol Basically, the BB community as a whole is a great community, but in general, one of extremes. All carbs, no carbs, all taper-cycles, no-taper-cycles, etc. I don't believe that tapering is going to get your body to start making any test, yes, as long as there's exogenous test, and you're already shut down, you'll stay shut down. However, your muscle growth is based on, and used to a certain amount of test, e.g. 500-750mg/wk. If you go from 750mg/wk to 0mg/wk, that's going to be quite a shock to the system in terms of overall strength and ability to keep it, even if you get your nuts back in a day, that's only ~150mg/wk. Why not lower your dose for a few weeks to 250mg/wk and see if you can get your body accustomed to maintaining its current size/strength at that dose, and then come down a bit further. You can see where long, or "never-ending" cycles start to make a lot of sense, and a lot of gains, when done properly. There are some people implementing this basic method already, and don't even really realize they're doing it. That's basically why I'd run an extra couple weeks of prop, to help solidify your gains. You'll also be pushing your recovery back 2 more weeks, and giving your system more time to adjust from being "shut down" by the tren.

To tren and deca. Personally, I've never experienced greater "shut down" from either of these than any other anabolics. The difference is that they decrease libido while test and other anabolics increase libido. I think this is where a certain misconception or misperception of being shut down arises. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen anything that shows that tren or nandrolone shut you down "more" than anything else. I don't even see how this is possible. Either your body is producing its own testosterone, or it's not.

The rest of your recovery, etc., I think is easily addressed by a lot of other very knowledgeable board members, I'm just offering you a few things to think about.
-B

In order for your body to produce sperm there has to be the right ratio of hormones in the body. Testosterone alone will not do it. There needs to be estrogens and FSH as well. The reasons why things like Deca and Tren will shut you down hard is because unlike testosterone they will not aromatize and therefore your ratio of androgens to estrogens is unfavorable. Testosterone esters takes a lot longer to shut people down because your body can con convert the test into estrogens, therefore keeping a favorable ratio for libido and sperm production.

People think that every time you are shut down it is because your HPTA. This couldn't be further then the truth. No matter what you are taking, it takes a really long time to shut your HPTA down. LH is a hormone that is responsible for the production of several hormones that your body requires. Not just testosterone. If your Hypothalamus was to really shut down you would be in a world of troubles.