Fast Twitch SLow Twitch discussion

[enigma4dub]

So there has been a lot being said about hypertrophy in relation to muscle fiber composition. Question when working at heavy percentages of maxes in the 5 rep range am i not properly stimulating my slow twitch fibers and selling my physique short? im thinking that its taking full muscle recruitment to move the weight. But if we assume that the slow twitch fibers arent directly involved, what are they doing when im working so hard to move the weight? is this solely dependent on the percentage of each fiber that you have?

 

[SouthernLord]

Would working in such high percentage of your 1RM cause the slow twitch muscles to change into fast twitch? I know I have read studies stating that long duration steady state cardio (jogging) causes fast twitch muscle fiber in your legs to change into slow twitch. I personally could care less as long as the weight on the bar keeps increasing and I am adding lbm. I know you feel the same here. This is a valid question though. Maybe someone of greater knowledge (Tat) can chime in and answer.

 

[enigma4dub]

Would working in such high percentage of your 1RM cause the slow twitch muscles to change into fast twitch? I know I have read studies stating that long duration steady state cardio (jogging) causes fast twitch muscle fiber in your legs to change into slow twitch. I personally could care less as long as the weight on the bar keeps increasing and I am adding lbm. I know you feel the same here. This is a valid question though. Maybe someone of greater knowledge (Tat) can chime in and answer.

yes good point maybe i should have put her name in thread title lol. id like to have a better understanding of the fibers and there role in adding lbm and getting stronger in general. here another: is there any relation to neural adaptation and what type of muscle is firing?

 

[Tatyana]

I have a hunch that the heavier you lift causes greater neural adaptation.

General rule of thumb

Less than 5 reps = strength

6-12 reps = strength and hypertrophy

More than 12 reps = endurance

I think all of the rep ranges have their place in bodybuilding


It is a bit late for my brain, I will have to post more tomorrow.

 

[enigma4dub]

so if hypertrophy seems to be coming relatively easy for the trainee in the 5 rep range does one assume that he he is fast twitch fiber dominant? and what is going on with the slow twitch fibers in the lower rep ranges. and im being specific for 5.

 

[Tatyana]

so if hypertrophy seems to be coming relatively easy for the trainee in the 5 rep range does one assume that he he is fast twitch fiber dominant? and what is going on with the slow twitch fibers in the lower rep ranges. and im being specific for 5.

As far as I understand, it wouldn't stimulate this muscle fiber type much, so it wouldn't hypertrophy or get stronger

Fast and slow twitch muscle fibers are not evenly distributed, some muscles do seem to be predominantly one or the other, for example, triceps, fast, biceps, slow.

Some of this is logical when you look at the type of work a muscle or the movement of the muscle. Some of it is genetic, and as Southern Lord mentioned, stimulus/training is thought to switch a percetage of fibers.

If you are getting significant growth in the 5 rep range,then that muscle group is probably mostly fast twitch, which also shows more hypertrophy than slow twitch.

I think people don't pay much attention to the rep ranges and fiber types as the growth from slow twith stimulation is going to take longer to noitce as the hyypertrophy is less, and it will take a lot more res for an 'enduarnace'peroid of time for results.

 

[[CinnamonBuns]]

i think more or less training either fast twitch or slow twitch will make you grow
however im sure (depending on the individual) one is more efficiant
i prefer heavy lifting

 

[coolcolj]

The slow twitch is involved at heavy weights, all your muscles are, the heavier you go, the more fast twitch muscles come into play

weights are slow enough for the slow twitch msucles to contribute

but it's only the fast twitch stuff that grows the most and easiest. Guys with lots of fast twitch muscles and good hormone and CNS makeup will grow the fastest and the most when training

 

[SaiBoT]

Ok there is two types of fast-twitch fybers which are FT-2b and FT-2a and there is the slow-twitch fybers. The FT-2b are better stimulated by a weight around 60% of your max and done explosively and that's why supercoach Louie Simmons has is athletes doing sets of 3 explosive reps w that percentage on is protocols. FT-2a are the ones better stimulated by 5reps on the 85-90% of your max.

Check the website below to get the full picture about ultimate development and fiber recruitment it will blow you away...

http://www.coachr.org/fiber.htm

 

[SaiBoT]

The 85-90% of your max is around 5reps that's why the 5x5 is so effective...

 

[coolcolj]

all your fibers will be recruited by 80% of 1RM, after than it's all rate coding

 

[SaiBoT]

all your fibers will be recruited by 80% of 1RM, after than it's all rate coding

I disagree if by saying all fibers you include slow-twitch... And I agree if by that you mean that w 80% weight you attempt to be explosive your body will respond by activating more motor units and fibers... But the STs will still be sleeping like nothing happened. I love this scheme for squats.

3x3 60%mr done explosively (jump squat)
2x5 85-90%mr all out
1x20 50-60% to get the STs
1x50reps 25%mr to work on capilar density

This work greatly if you hit a plateau specially w strength issues.

 

[coolcolj]

Your wrong

slow twitch fibers always get recruited, it's the fastest fibers that aren't always recruited....
that's why fast twitch fibers are also called high threshold fibers

and yes, by 80% of 1RM, all motor units are recruited. After that exta force is generated by rate coding.

 

[the_alcatraz]

It was my understanding, that the following are pretty accurate values:

1-6 reps : power / strength

8-12 reps : hypertrophy

15 reps + : muscular endurane

Anything between is a mix, i.e. 14 reps would be a mix between hypertrophy and muscular endurance and 7 reps would be a mix between strength training and hypertrophy.

My only issue is I truly believe that you need AT LEAST 8 reps to attain muscle hypertrophy. 6 reps just wont cut it.

I have a hunch that the heavier you lift causes greater neural adaptation.

General rule of thumb

Less than 5 reps = strength

6-12 reps = strength and hypertrophy

More than 12 reps = endurance

I think all of the rep ranges have their place in bodybuilding


It is a bit late for my brain, I will have to post more tomorrow.

 

[the_alcatraz]

so if hypertrophy seems to be coming relatively easy for the trainee in the 5 rep range does one assume that he he is fast twitch fiber dominant? and what is going on with the slow twitch fibers in the lower rep ranges. and im being specific for 5.

'm not sure if I understand this correctly, but are you saying 5 reps will yield hypertrophy? That's wouldn't be very accurate bro. The muscle needs at least 8 reps for hypertrophy. 5-6 reps are not enough IMO.

But , as always, I'm willing to negotiate and discuss. So please provide me with evidence that 5 reps will achieve hypertrophy and I'll consider it.

 

[SaiBoT]

Your wrong

slow twitch fibers always get recruited, it's the fastest fibers that aren't always recruited....that's why fast twitch fibers are also called high threshold fibers

and yes, by 80% of 1RM, all motor units are recruited. After that exta force is generated by rate coding.

Well you just contradicted yourself...

 

[SaiBoT]

Ok I know you are right regarding the recruitment of the STs and the possibility of the FT-2b no being activated if your work on the 80% rm but the main point is in order to get the STs to grow (I know they are less capable that fast-twitch) you have to hit them hard on their rep-range not just activate them (it's not like turning the ignition on a car that he will actually start moving is it?). By the way a good example of when the FT-2b are fully activated are exactly strongman events and life and death situations.

 

[SaiBoT]

It's proven that even with 3reps workouts your muscle can grow but a little on a long term training. Examples powerlifters and olympic lifters by doing squats, front squats over the years they grow big not going further than 5 reps.

 

[enigma4dub]

'm not sure if I understand this correctly, but are you saying 5 reps will yield hypertrophy? That's wouldn't be very accurate bro. The muscle needs at least 8 reps for hypertrophy. 5-6 reps are not enough IMO.

But , as always, I'm willing to negotiate and discuss. So please provide me with evidence that 5 reps will achieve hypertrophy and I'll consider it.

lol. (prerequisite) i have never touched a drop of aas. you are looking at a physique established in that rep range. you are a strong and knowledgable bro but you have some serious inconsitencies in your knowledge. thinking that you can only hypertrophy in a particular rep range is ignorant to say the least.

 

[the_alcatraz]

lol. (prerequisite) i have never touched a drop of aas. you are looking at a physique established in that rep range. you are a strong and knowledgable bro but you have some serious inconsitencies in your knowledge. thinking that you can only hypertrophy in a particular rep range is ignorant to say the least.

Thinking that you can hypertrophy in 5-6 reps is ignorance in itself bro.
I dnt even get a pump with 5 reps....I get strong, yes...but to do only 5 reps means i'm going for a weight that i can only do 4 reps with and im pushing myself to do 5 reps......that will enable you to cheat most of the times and you might get a pump and you will get stronger, but hypertrophy you will nt achieve. I think if you look at all the books out there regarding fitness and muscular training you will see that the concept of hypertrophy is usually associated with a higher rep range, def. higher that 5-6 reps.

 

[enigma4dub]

so where did the hypertrophy on my body come from?

you dont need a pump to grow.

you dont need to train to failure to grow. failure happens but it isnt built in to my program. my training is based on systematic progress its all about more work/volume each time. thats how i know im progressing not by some feeling.

these books you refer to are not backed by science or medicine.

 

[enigma4dub]

anyways back on discussion .... found this link

http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do?id=394848

 

[the_alcatraz]

so where did the hypertrophy on my body come from?

you dont need a pump to grow.

you dont need to train to failure to grow. failure happens but it isnt built in to my program. my training is based on systematic progress its all about more work/volume each time. thats how i know im progressing not by some feeling.

these books you refer to are not backed by science or medicine.

There was a time when I slept for less than 4 hours a night. I ate 2 meals a day and my training was lazy. I still put on some muscle and got leaner. That doesn't make what I'm doing right.

There are things you need to do to grow OPTIMALLY, i.e. growth POTENTIAL:

rest
good diet
good training
supplementation (not steroids)

Without the above, you can grow....but you will not reach optimum growth

Yes, you can grow without hypertrophy, but you will not grow to full potential without hypertrophy. This IS Science.

Yes you can grow without getting a pump every workout. But what's a pump? A pump is what some people call the state of vaso-dilation when blood flow to the muscles that you are training and the widening of the veins allow blood and nutrients to flow to the muscle allowing it to grow....again optimally, thats why supplements that are arginine based are very desirable - they enduce pumps, especially when supplemented with creatine.

yes, you WILL grow on 5-6 reps, but you will NOT grow optimally. That IS Science and biology.

My theory:

If you can put in the max reps you can put in every workout to the point just before "overtraining," you will not overtrain, you will not burn more calories that you are eating (if supplememted with a good diet) and you will reach optimal growth.

I see bodybuilders do 3-4 reps on a bench for 3-4 sets then move on. Sure it's great, if you're a power lifter. Sure you'll get strong and put on a few lbs. But why put on a few lbs, when you can put on MANY. Why cut yourself short, when you know you can grow better?

If you want to grow OPTIMALLY and to you MAX POTENTIAL you need to achieve hypertrophy. Period.

 

[enigma4dub]

Yes, you can grow without hypertrophy, but you will not grow to full potential without hypertrophy. This IS Science.

umm... how does a muscle get bigger and stronger without hypertrophy?

 

[SaiBoT]

Yes, you can grow without hypertrophy, but you will not grow to full potential without hypertrophy. This IS Science..

I know what you mean: You were trying to say that we can grow without training for hypertrophy, but we will not grow to full potential without training training for hypertrophy.

That's correct to a point that by training for hypertrophy you will reach a point where you can't build more muscle unless you increase your strength. When you reach that point you have to work on your strength then when you get stronger go back to hypertrophy standards and by doing this you might reach maximum growth possible and so on.

 

[enigma4dub]

lets get a clear definition of hypertrophy...

 

[miplank]

There are two different types of muscular hypertrophy: sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and myofibrillar hypertrophy. During sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the volume of sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cell increases with no accompanying increase in muscular strength. During myofibrillar hypertrophy, the myofibrils, comprised of the actin and myosin contractile proteins, increase in number and add to muscular strength as well as a small increase in the size of the muscle.


Types of myofibrillar hypertrophy
Myofibrillar hypertrophy can, in theory, arise through two processes:

Increase in the number of nuclei within each muscle fiber, or
Increase in the amount of contractile material supported by each nucleus.
The latter is the usual means of muscle hypertrophy.


Strength training
Main article: Strength training
Strength training typically produces a combination of the two different types of hypertrophy: contraction against 80 to 90% of the one repetition maximum for two to eight repetitions (reps) causes myofibrillated hypertrophy to dominate (as in powerlifters, olympic lifters and strength athletes), while several repetitions (generally 12 or more) against a sub-maximal load facilitates mainly sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (professional bodybuilders and endurance athletes). The first measurable effect is an increase in the neural drive stimulating muscle contraction. Within just a few days, an untrained individual can achieve measurable strength gains resulting from "learning" to use the muscle. As the muscle continues to receive increased demands, the synthetic machinery is upregulated. Although all the steps are not yet clear, this upregulation appears to begin with the ubiquitous second messenger system (including phospholipases, protein kinase C, tyrosine kinase, and others). These, in turn, activate the family of immediate-early genes, including c-fos, c-jun and myc. These genes appear to dictate the contractile protein gene response.

Muscle hypertrophy due to strength training does not occur for everyone and is not necessarily well correlated with gains in actual muscle strength: it is possible for muscles to grow larger without becoming much stronger.

 

[SaiBoT]

There are two different types of muscular hypertrophy: sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and myofibrillar hypertrophy. During sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the volume of sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cell increases with no accompanying increase in muscular strength. During myofibrillar hypertrophy, the myofibrils, comprised of the actin and myosin contractile proteins, increase in number and add to muscular strength as well as a small increase in the size of the muscle.


Types of myofibrillar hypertrophy
Myofibrillar hypertrophy can, in theory, arise through two processes:

Increase in the number of nuclei within each muscle fiber, or
Increase in the amount of contractile material supported by each nucleus.
The latter is the usual means of muscle hypertrophy.


Strength training
Main article: Strength training
Strength training typically produces a combination of the two different types of hypertrophy: contraction against 80 to 90% of the one repetition maximum for two to eight repetitions (reps) causes myofibrillated hypertrophy to dominate (as in powerlifters, olympic lifters and strength athletes), while several repetitions (generally 12 or more) against a sub-maximal load facilitates mainly sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (professional bodybuilders and endurance athletes). The first measurable effect is an increase in the neural drive stimulating muscle contraction. Within just a few days, an untrained individual can achieve measurable strength gains resulting from "learning" to use the muscle. As the muscle continues to receive increased demands, the synthetic machinery is upregulated. Although all the steps are not yet clear, this upregulation appears to begin with the ubiquitous second messenger system (including phospholipases, protein kinase C, tyrosine kinase, and others). These, in turn, activate the family of immediate-early genes, including c-fos, c-jun and myc. These genes appear to dictate the contractile protein gene response.

Muscle hypertrophy due to strength training does not occur for everyone and is not necessarily well correlated with gains in actual muscle strength: it is possible for muscles to grow larger without becoming much stronger.

That contradicts the principle of progressive overload... Eventually you need to become increasingly stronger in order to achieve greater hypertrophy.

 

[the_alcatraz]

Strength training does not necessarily lead to hypertrophy.

You need a number of reps that is higher than that used for strength training, i.e. 8-12 reps to attain hypertrophy

Muscle hypertrophy due to strength training does not occur for everyone and is not necessarily well correlated with gains in actual muscle strength: it is possible for muscles to grow larger without becoming much stronger.

 

[miplank]

Strength training does not necessarily lead to hypertrophy.

You need a number of reps that is higher than that used for strength training, i.e. 8-12 reps to attain hypertrophy

Yes...Lower Reps Causes myofibrillar hypertrophy-

During myofibrillar hypertrophy, the myofibrils, comprised of the actin and myosin contractile proteins, increase in number and add to muscular strength as well as a small increase in the size of the muscle.

contraction against 80 to 90% of the one repetition maximum for two to eight repetitions (reps) causes myofibrillated hypertrophy to dominate (as in powerlifters, olympic lifters and strength athletes)


higher reps will yeild sarcoplasmic hypertrophy-

During sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the volume of sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cell increases with no accompanying increase in muscular strength.

several repetitions (generally 12 or more) against a sub-maximal load facilitates mainly sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (professional bodybuilders and endurance athletes).

 

[SaiBoT]

Yeah guys we all wish that ultimate muscle mass could be resumed to a simple formula, but it can't. Meanwhile we can keep working out and hope we get to be the best we can... The way i see it... working out striving to be strong, muscular and to have relative endurance is the best.

 

[Tatyana]

That contradicts the principle of progressive overload... Eventually you need to become increasingly stronger in order to achieve greater hypertrophy.

Progressive overload is one method of periodisation, however, it is not the only one.

I do think that some newbies to training could do with getting stronger before they focus on hypertrophy.

 

[the_alcatraz]

Progressive overload is one method of periodisation, however, it is not the only one.

I do think that some newbies to training could do with getting stronger before they focus on hypertrophy.

Now THAT I agree with.

I think newbies to bodybuilding should spend their time getting stronger and getting their body familiar with the dif. exercises and the way the muscles work

 

[SaiBoT]

Progressive overload is one method of periodisation, however, it is not the only one.

I do think that some newbies to training could do with getting stronger before they focus on hypertrophy.

I agree! But the progressive overload can be applied on strength (2-5), hypertrophy (8-12) and endurance (15-25), it's valide for all protocols, because progessive overload is not only referred to increase weight but also to number of reps and even sets aka total volume.

And indeed the newbies should focus on achieving a strength base.

 

[the_alcatraz]

I agree! But the progressive overload can be applied on strength (2-5), hypertrophy (8-12) and endurance (15-25), it's valide for all protocols, because progessive overload is not only referred to increase weight but also to number of reps and even sets aka total volume.

And indeed the newbies should focus on achieving a strength base.

Now thats a better perception of hypertrophy and difference variations of exercise depending on the number of reps....

I agree completely with that post.