Explaining War

[The Ranger]

A LESSON TO MY SON
by A PROUD AMERICAN Irma S. Chambers

The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war.
My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I
were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and
defend our country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a
good explanation.

My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in
our front living room window. He told him:
"Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"
"I see trees and cars and our neighbors houses." he replied.
"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United
States of America and you are President Bush."

Our son giggled and said "OK."

"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house
and yard on this block is a different country." my husband said.

"OK Dad, I'm pretending."

"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man
come out of his house with his wife and he has her by the hair and is
hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face,
he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death. Their
children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are crying, they are
watching this but do nothing because they are kids and afraid of their
father. You see all of this son....what do you do?"

"Dad?"

"What do you do son?!"

"I call the police, Dad."

"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your
call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do
you do then son?!"

"Dad, but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to whine.

"They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or
your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my
husband says.

"But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.

"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want
you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're
pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."

"Daddy...he kills them?"

"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"

"Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door
neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.

"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get
involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my
husband says.

"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"

"WHAT DO YOU DO SON?"

Our son starts to cry.

"OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for
help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and
puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"

"What Daddy?"

"He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down her
door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire
and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in he
window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!"

"Daddy..."

"WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!"
Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I close the blinds,
Daddy."

My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him... "Why?"

"Because Daddy.....the police are supposed to help...people who needs
it....and they won't help....You always say that neighbors are supposed
to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop
him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by myself...Daddy.....I can't look out
my window and just watch him do all these terrible things
and...and.....do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds....so
I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is
not happening."

I start to cry.

My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking
pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions and he tells
him...."Son"

"Yes, Daddy."

"Open the blinds because that man....he's at your front door..."WHAT DO
YOU DO?!!!!"

My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up
this tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without
hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM
HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA
FIGHT HIM!!!!!"

I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs my son to his
chest and hugs him tight, and cries..."It's too late to fight him, he's
too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you should have
stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife. You have to do what's right, even
if you have to do it alone, before......it's too late." my husband
whispers.

THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good
men stand by and let evil happen is the greatest EVIL of all. Our
President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand
that this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove this evil man from
power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are not
afraid to look out our window and see crimes on humanity.
So that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that
if he just "closes" that blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect
him. Today the second day of "WAR on IRAQ" I felt compelled to write
this and pass it along. Hopefully, you will understand the lesson my
husband tried to teach our son.

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT
ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR PRESIDENT! BE PROUD OF
OUR TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!! SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR
CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS...."


Ranger

 

[Fast Twitch Fiber]

This is a ridiculous comparison written by a fool that thinks we are actually in this war to "liberate" the poor folks of Iraq. Face it, the truth is Bush wants Saddam out of power and all this crap about liberating Iraq and WMD is just a way to try to win support.

 

[SUST-MAN]

If we actually gave a shit about the iraqis....we wouldnt have put the civilians through sanctions for the last 12 years. We could have done something to effect Saddam....instead of the people.

 

[The Ranger]

And how would we do that Sust-Man?? Just curious is all....

Ranger

 

[The Ranger]

And how would we do that Sust-Man?? Just curious is all....

Ranger

 

[Frackal]

Hey Ranger... I honestly don't feel that was a realistic piece of writing... I can show you a pic in wan amusement of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand trying to work out an oil deal back around '82, a few days after Saddam gassed a few thousand people...Our Govt's motives are sadly not that noble.

 

[SUST-MAN]

Ranger...

I dont know. Maybe we should have attacked him before? Maybe we could have armed the inspectors with millitary assistance back in 92?

All i know is, what we did in iraq over the past 12 years was horrible. You can say that Saddam did it to his own people.....but we know what kind of man Saddam Was...and we knew what he was doing with the money....yet we still continued the sanctions which in turn killed millions of iraqis, and kept them in a horrible situation.

These civilians that we are trying to "liberate", are the same ones that we screwed over for the past 12 years.

 

[Bikini Mod]

I can not believe that ANY PARENT would explain war to their child LIKE THAT.... Talk about hypocracy! Is the US ALL OVER THE WORLD "KEEPING BAD MEN FROM RAPING, MURDERING, LOOTING, KILLING?!"

You MUST BE JOKING!!!

And just what is the criteria that the US uses to decide WHICH BAD MEN NEED TO BE BEATEN DOWN AND WHICH DO NOT? IT COULDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT THE US'S RELATIONSHIP IS MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL OR NOT AT THE GIVEN TIME WHEN ALL THE LOOTING/RAPING/MURDERING WAS GOING ON..... DOES IT?!

Please spare me the silly story of the teary-eyed parents and child. It makes me sick to my stomach.

War unfortunately is a necessary evil. As long as there are two people on this planet. If one is an agressive ASSHOLE that will fuck with the other NO MATTER WHAT (you all remember about the concept of "appeasement" - Yea, Hitler was REALLY EASILY satisfied) then there will be war.

Sad, but true.

We are SUPPOSED TO BE CIVILIZED. But the truth is that WE ARE NOT.

I think it is better to teach our children the concept of understanding the difference between what we can change and can not change. We need COURAGE, WISDOM and ACCEPTANCE in order to dedipher the difference... not some silly analogy about your next door neighboor beating and killing his wife.

HOW MANY OF YOU RIGHT NOW KNOW FOR A FACT OF ANY OF YOUR FRIENDS THAT IS PUTTING HIS/HER HANDS ON THEIR S/O YET YOU DO FUCKING NOT A GODDAMNED THING!? WHY DO YOU DO NOTHING? BECAUSE THEN IT *MIGHT* FUCK UP YOUR FRIENDSHIP AND HELL, THE FRIENDSHIP WAS MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL BEFORE YOU KNEW, RIGHT? FUCK, YOU NEVER SAW HIM OR HER PUT THEIR HANDS ON THEIR S/O RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM DID YOU? SO THEN THAT MUST MEAN THAT IT ISN'T REALLY HAPPENING .... RIGHT?!?!

(I say his or her because believe it or not women can be just as violent and abusive as men and the men are even MORE ashamed than the women to admit it happens.)

Please spare me this nonsense.

I am VERY SUPPORTIVE of your servicemen and women. It is because of them that I can sit here safely and not have to worry about tanks rolling down my street - BUT I also believe that such a story is HIGHLY IRRESPONSIBLE and HYPOCRITICAL.

 

[muscle_geek]

Hey Ranger... I honestly don't feel that was a realistic piece of writing... I can show you a pic in wan amusement of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand trying to work out an oil deal back around '82, a few days after Saddam gassed a few thousand people...Our Govt's motives are sadly not that noble.

Our motives are never really noble. We simply try to do what's best for our country. America has made foreign policy blunders all throughout history. Its not an exact science. But what separates us from many other nations is that we've shown an incredible ability to learn from our mistakes. This is why we have become the only true superpower. There will be no more Vietnam's and in this war we are doing the work ourselves instead of strengthening an uprising behind the scenes. It really doesn't matter that we helped strengthen Iraq in the past. That point is no longer important. It was a mistake. But we are doing the right thing now. I believe that the reasons we are doing this are valid and as follows:

1. Saddam's regime does pose a threat to the US. The country is wealthy and shows a clear inclination to support terrorism. They also have a desire to destroy the US. That's a problem in my book. He has a stockpile of weapons that terrorists could use. Another problem. After 9/11, we can't turn our back on this anymore.

2. Stability of the middle east. I believe that after we insert a more democratic regime and a less terroristic regime that a solid peace plan for Israel and Palestine will occur. All the naysayers will say that this won't happen, but I believe we are on the verge of something here. This could be a historical turning point in the middle east. Remember that peace is only earned through strength. History has shown us that.

3. Liberation of Iraq. This is a lower priority than the other two. Its more effectual, than motive, but Iraqi people will have more opportunities for education, self sustainment, than they have had in the last thirty years. This is good for the US. Iraq could be another ally of ours if we play our cards right.

I believe that this war has been waged for very good and valid reasons. I do not think they are noble, or that it matters that they're noble.

 

[SUST-MAN]

Our motives are never really noble. We simply try to do what's best for our country. America has made foreign policy blunders all throughout history. Its not an exact science. But what separates us from many other nations is that we've shown an incredible ability to learn from our mistakes. This is why we have become the only true superpower. There will be no more Vietnam's and in this war we are doing the work ourselves instead of strengthening an uprising behind the scenes. It really doesn't matter that we helped strengthen Iraq in the past. That point is no longer important. It was a mistake. But we are doing the right thing now. I believe that the reasons we are doing this are valid and as follows:

1. Saddam's regime does pose a threat to the US. The country is wealthy and shows a clear inclination to support terrorism. They also have a desire to destroy the US. That's a problem in my book. He has a stockpile of weapons that terrorists could use. Another problem. After 9/11, we can't turn our back on this anymore.

2. Stability of the middle east. I believe that after we insert a more democratic regime and a less terroristic regime that a solid peace plan for Israel and Palestine will occur. All the naysayers will say that this won't happen, but I believe we are on the verge of something here. This could be a historical turning point in the middle east. Remember that peace is only earned through strength. History has shown us that.

3. Liberation of Iraq. This is a lower priority than the other two. Its more effectual, than motive, but Iraqi people will have more opportunities for education, self sustainment, than they have had in the last thirty years. This is good for the US. Iraq could be another ally of ours if we play our cards right.

I believe that this war has been waged for very good and valid reasons. I do not think they are noble, or that it matters that they're noble.

For your 1st comment....can you please tell me how Saddam shows clear inclination to support terrorism....other than by words? Do you people really think that if you say something enough times...then it becomes true? The truth is....no links have been made between Saddam Hussein and terrorism (other than the palestinians...but if you think they are the same as al qaueda...your nuts)

For your 2nd comment. Israel is a mess because of the israeli settlements in the West bank and the way the the palestinians are treated. How do you think a democratic iraq can assist in this situation unless the israelis leave the settlements?

And for your 3rd comment...."LIBERATION" of iraq. With a democracy, a Shite president will be elected due to the overwhelming SHia population in iraq. The SHia are fundamentalist muslims. DO you think that the Kurds and the Sunni will be happy living under a fundamentalist regime? DEMOCRACY DOES NOT WORK IN IRAQ. its a very complicated issue.

 

[gsxr1000]

That's a cheerful little anecdote up there Ranger, but it needs to be adjusted somewhat to make it more realistic, both in the sense of the story and metaphorically speaking in terms of the greater picture.

I say the father is sleeping with his nextdoor neighbor's wife.

The little son get's beat up and has his lunch money stolen by kids across the street.

And the mother is pregnant with the guy across the street's bastard love-child.

Now the story would make more sense.

 

[muscle_geek]

For your 1st comment....can you please tell me how Saddam shows clear inclination to support terrorism....other than by words? Do you people really think that if you say something enough times...then it becomes true? The truth is....no links have been made between Saddam Hussein and terrorism (other than the palestinians...but if you think they are the same as al qaueda...your nuts)

For your 2nd comment. Israel is a mess because of the israeli settlements in the West bank and the way the the palestinians are treated. How do you think a democratic iraq can assist in this situation unless the israelis leave the settlements?

And for your 3rd comment...."LIBERATION" of iraq. With a democracy, a Shite president will be elected due to the overwhelming SHia population in iraq. The SHia are fundamentalist muslims. DO you think that the Kurds and the Sunni will be happy living under a fundamentalist regime? DEMOCRACY DOES NOT WORK IN IRAQ. its a very complicated issue.

Is has been proven that Saddam has made monetary payments to Palestinian families of suicide bomber. That is an inclination to support terrorism. I agree that there are no direct lines between Saddam and Al Qaeda, but there are some indirect lines. This is only my opinion, but I believe that Saddam would eventually use terroristic tactics against the US if he had the chance.

On my second point, I don't think that by winning this war we will gain peace in Israel/Palestine. I think a good independent peace plan is being offered now. My point is that with a good peace plan in place for Israel/Palestine AND Saddam's regime replaced, that we could see more stability than ever in the middle east.

On my third point, Iraqi democracy will not be perfect and there will be problems. But it will be much better than what they have. The US just needs to invest the time and money to make it work. There are already indications that opposing factions are starting to work together.

 

[velvett]

I can not believe that ANY PARENT would explain war to their child LIKE THAT.... Talk about hypocracy! Is the US ALL OVER THE WORLD "KEEPING BAD MEN FROM RAPING, MURDERING, LOOTING, KILLING?!"

You MUST BE JOKING!!!

And just what is the criteria that the US uses to decide WHICH BAD MEN NEED TO BE BEATEN DOWN AND WHICH DO NOT? IT COULDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT THE US'S RELATIONSHIP IS MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL OR NOT AT THE GIVEN TIME WHEN ALL THE LOOTING/RAPING/MURDERING WAS GOING ON..... DOES IT?!

Please spare me the silly story of the teary-eyed parents and child. It makes me sick to my stomach.

War unfortunately is a necessary evil. As long as there are two people on this planet. If one is an agressive ASSHOLE that will fuck with the other NO MATTER WHAT (you all remember about the concept of "appeasement" - Yea, Hitler was REALLY EASILY satisfied) then there will be war.

Sad, but true.

We are SUPPOSED TO BE CIVILIZED. But the truth is that WE ARE NOT.

I think it is better to teach our children the concept of understanding the difference between what we can change and can not change. We need COURAGE, WISDOM and ACCEPTANCE in order to dedipher the difference... not some silly analogy about your next door neighboor beating and killing his wife.

HOW MANY OF YOU RIGHT NOW KNOW FOR A FACT OF ANY OF YOUR FRIENDS THAT IS PUTTING HIS/HER HANDS ON THEIR S/O YET YOU DO FUCKING NOT A GODDAMNED THING!? WHY DO YOU DO NOTHING? BECAUSE THEN IT *MIGHT* FUCK UP YOUR FRIENDSHIP AND HELL, THE FRIENDSHIP WAS MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL BEFORE YOU KNEW, RIGHT? FUCK, YOU NEVER SAW HIM OR HER PUT THEIR HANDS ON THEIR S/O RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM DID YOU? SO THEN THAT MUST MEAN THAT IT ISN'T REALLY HAPPENING .... RIGHT?!?!

(I say his or her because believe it or not women can be just as violent and abusive as men and the men are even MORE ashamed than the women to admit it happens.)

Please spare me this nonsense.

I am VERY SUPPORTIVE of your servicemen and women. It is because of them that I can sit here safely and not have to worry about tanks rolling down my street - BUT I also believe that such a story is HIGHLY IRRESPONSIBLE and HYPOCRITICAL.

I couldn't have said it better - so I'll just repeat it for good measure.

 

[SUST-MAN]

Is has been proven that Saddam has made monetary payments to Palestinian families of suicide bomber. That is an inclination to support terrorism. I agree that there are no direct lines between Saddam and Al Qaeda, but there are some indirect lines. This is only my opinion, but I believe that Saddam would eventually use terroristic tactics against the US if he had the chance.

On my second point, I don't think that by winning this war we will gain peace in Israel/Palestine. I think a good independent peace plan is being offered now. My point is that with a good peace plan in place for Israel/Palestine AND Saddam's regime replaced, that we could see more stability than ever in the middle east.

On my third point, Iraqi democracy will not be perfect and there will be problems. But it will be much better than what they have. The US just needs to invest the time and money to make it work. There are already indications that opposing factions are starting to work together.

Bro....palestinian terrorism is not the same as other terrorism. These people are fighting for their freedom. We may not agree with there methods, but they have no other choice. They are an occupied people living under harsh and inhumane conditions. Supporting Suicide bombers in israel has nothing to do with supporting fundamentalist muslims.

Have you not seen the world's reaction to this war? Do you not think that there is growing anti american sentiment world wide? DOnt you think the arab world hates us even more? How do you think that this will lead to stability in the mid east lead by america.

For the iraqi people...yes, a democracy could be better than the conditions they have been exposed to. THeir alternative was licing in harsh economic sactions. Yes....they will also have more freedom etc...but lets look at our own interests. Shia muslims are fundamentalist muslims. If anyone will harbor terrorism, it is them and not Saddam. Saddam is a secular muslim and the fundamentalists want to destroy him aswell. With a powerful fundamentalist Shia government in iraq, backed by Oil money....Dont you think that in the next few years...Iraq can be an even bigger problem for the US than a contained and weak Saddam Hussein?

 

[muscle_geek]

Only time will tell. I'm not as worried about Iran and the Shia muslims. I believe our show of strength will keep them down. At this point, I don't see too many countries that want to fuck with Bush. Lately many countries have been toning down their rhetoric. Its interesting how that happens once they know that they can't play games within the UN.

 

[Bikini Mod]

I couldn't have said it better - so I'll just repeat it for good measure.

Velvett... that is a REAL COMPLIMENT coming from you.


On a side note, I am comforted to know that I am not the only one who sees why this "little explanation of war" is A CROCK OF SHIT.

Gender, political affiliation, age, marital status, parental status, ethnicity HAS ZERO TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS BULLSHIT.

It is not that complicated. It is really very simple.

Two people co-exist. Person A is AN AGRESSIVE ASSHOLE (might be a "real nice guy or lady" to the outside world - but TOTALLY DIFFERENT THOSE ON THE "INSIDE"). Person B is NOT.... Eventually Person A will fuck with Person B - WAR. What the "persons" surrounding and WITHIN the given situation do because of the actions of Person A are is to be decided BY EACH INDIVIDUAL.

There is NO RIGHT OR WRONG....

Each person has to make thier own choices and live with the rammifications of those choices.

It is THAT SIMPLE.

Remember people, it isn't life's circumstances that determine our character, however the way in which WE CHOOSE to react to those circumstances.

You can all go on and on about Sadam this and the Iraqis that and Bush the third thing... FACT: There is a war going on in Iraq. The US was the aggressor. What we choose to do as indiviuals (not as Americans - BUT AS HUMAN BEINGS) because of this fact is up to us. We can either be part of the problem or we can TRY to be part of the solution.

 

[velvett]

Velvett... that is a REAL COMPLIMENT coming from you.

Whatch you smokin'?




Quick - with or without nuts?

Don't think just answer.

 

[The Shadow]

...that is a trick question

Danger
Danger

 

[Bikini Mod]

WITH!!!




...was there ever any doubt?

 

[The Ranger]

Sust-Man, you bring up very valid points, and I agree with almost all of them...I just want to explore what could have been done long before this to avoid war....and I do know we did support SH and his actions not so many years ago....case in point, when Isarel bombed his nuke plants...we condemed that action, yet today we are thankful they did....

Ranger

 

[The Ranger]

Also, just to prove a point on how conflicts start, not necessarily wars....

No. 1... I never said I wrote, nor agreed with that article.
No. 2... Because I posted it, I was attacked, sent horrible red karma, and even 1 very nasty PM.
No. 3... On this post, did I ever once advocate this post as a lesson to our young children...


The point is....Diplomacy WORKS if given a chance and all parties respond and accept their differences....

Sust-Man, and Muscle-Geek, you guys have done a wonderful job of explaining your points in solid fashion....Though we all differ, we responded and seen certain points in each other's views on this topic of war and diplomacy....Hat's off to ya both....

Now, *IF*....We had removed SH from power in the mid-80's, or the Gulf War....The person who replaced him was worse, with many known Terror links....Would it be diplomatic to stop at that point, or keep trying until we get what *WE* think is a person who could benefit not only his country, but the world at large??

Just curious guys.....

Ranger

 

[Bikini Mod]

Also, just to prove a point on how conflicts start, not necessarily wars....

No. 1... I never said I wrote, nor agreed with that article.
No. 2... Because I posted it, I was attacked, sent horrible red karma, and even 1 very nasty PM.
No. 3... On this post, did I ever once advocate this post as a lesson to our young children...


The point is....Diplomacy WORKS if given a chance and all parties respond and accept their differences....

Sust-Man, and Muscle-Geek, you guys have done a wonderful job of explaining your points in solid fashion....Though we all differ, we responded and seen certain points in each other's views on this topic of war and diplomacy....Hat's off to ya both....

Now, *IF*....We had removed SH from power in the mid-80's, or the Gulf War....The person who replaced him was worse, with many known Terror links....Would it be diplomatic to stop at that point, or keep trying until we get what *WE* think is a person who could benefit not only his country, but the world at large??

Just curious guys.....

Ranger

No 1. I could clearly read that the article was NOT authored by you. I for one never said or implied in any way, shape, or form that you did.

No 2. I did send you a PM and I don't think it was nasty AT ALL... Only SPOKE TRUTH. Was it harsh perhaps? YES, BUT I SPOKE TRUTH AND WILL NOT WITHDRAW ANY OF IT. (If the nasty PM that you refer to was NOT mine then I will just shut the flock up in regards to your point No. 2 and will only reiterate that I MEANT EVERY WORD OF MY PM TO YOU. I am ASSUMING you meant me as you never PERSONALLY REPLIED.)

No 3. YES YOU MOST CERTAINLY DID IMPLY THAT YOU ARE ADVOCATING THE AUTHOR'S POINT OF VIEW PURELY BECAUSE YOU POSTED IT. If that was NOT your intention.... THEN WHAT EXACTLY WAS YOUR INTENTION WITH YOUR ORIGINAL POST? Did you post it as some sort of mental excercise to provoke those of us that read it to "think" about how we would explain this war to our children? Or perhaps to get us to question our OWN feelings about this war?... Those of us WHO HAVE NO POLITICAL POINTS OF VIEW ONLY THAT WE HATE WAR?!

Please clarify as some of us may have misunderstood your intentions.

And FOR THE RECORD, there is ZERO conflict from me with you about the topic of war or diplomacy. Because of YOUR PERSONAL SACRIFICE I CAN SIT SAFELY AT MY COMPUTER AND TYPE THIS POST WITHOUT FEAR OF MY CHILDREN BEING KILLED BY SNIPER FIRE WHILE PLAYING IN BURNED OUT RUINS. FOR THIS YOU AND ALL THE SERVICEMEN AND WOMEN BEFORE YOU AND NOW HAVE MY UNDYING GRATITUDE. HOWEVER, THE ISSUE I HAVE WITH YOUR POST WAS CLEARLY OUTLINED IN MY VERY PRIVATE PM TO YOU. And as for the OBVIOUS issues I have with your post, I feel that I have sufficiently and clearly addressed them. I stand by every word that I have typed on this thread and in any correspondence that I have EVER had with you....

So, if you want to discuss this privately my ears AND my mind are WIIIIIIIIIIIDE open.

Or you can just do what you have been doing for a looooooong time.

Either way, it's all good Darlin'.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Ranger...

I dont know. Maybe we should have attacked him before? Maybe we could have armed the inspectors with millitary assistance back in 92?

All i know is, what we did in iraq over the past 12 years was horrible. You can say that Saddam did it to his own people.....but we know what kind of man Saddam Was...and we knew what he was doing with the money....yet we still continued the sanctions which in turn killed millions of iraqis, and kept them in a horrible situation.

These civilians that we are trying to "liberate", are the same ones that we screwed over for the past 12 years.

Why don't you blame everyone for that? That was a joint failure on everyone's part. On the UNs part, on the Security council member's parts, and on Saddam's part. Why single out the US? Alot of people were to blame for that situation.

 

[Lao Tzu]

I can not believe that ANY PARENT would explain war to their child LIKE THAT.... Talk about hypocracy! Is the US ALL OVER THE WORLD "KEEPING BAD MEN FROM RAPING, MURDERING, LOOTING, KILLING?!"

You MUST BE JOKING!!!

Well, we did have a hand in giving more political liberty to Yugoslavia, Panama, Grenada, South Korea & several soviet bloc states after the USSR fell (Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Poland, Romania, E. Germany & Mongolia come to mind). Those are just the ones i know of.

take south Korea for instance. If North Korea had overrun it, it would be a poverty ridden shitball with major political repression & a per capita income of $1000 a year. Instead it is relatively free democracy with a per capita income of $20,000 a year thanks to the US stopping a north korean invasion.

If you dont believe me, go to

http://www.freedomhouse.org/ratings/index.htm

and look up these countries, some of them undergo drastic changes towards liberalization after US intervention or after the US helped bankrupt the USSR. Look at what happened to the soviet bloc countries after 1991 in regards to political freedom or civil liberties.

And just what is the criteria that the US uses to decide WHICH BAD MEN NEED TO BE BEATEN DOWN AND WHICH DO NOT? IT COULDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT THE US'S RELATIONSHIP IS MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL OR NOT AT THE GIVEN TIME WHEN ALL THE LOOTING/RAPING/MURDERING WAS GOING ON..... DOES IT?!

Nope, its selective. But selective morality is better than amorality, or endorsing destructiveness. Would you rather Yugoslavia not go from a repressed dictatorship to a less repressive democracy due to NATO intervention? Look at the differences between E. Germany & W. Germany in regards to political freedom & civil liberties up until the fall of the USSR.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/ratings/ethiop.htm

Please spare me the silly story of the teary-eyed parents and child. It makes me sick to my stomach.

I agree, it was a simplistic explanation.

War unfortunately is a necessary evil. As long as there are two people on this planet. If one is an agressive ASSHOLE that will fuck with the other NO MATTER WHAT (you all remember about the concept of "appeasement" - Yea, Hitler was REALLY EASILY satisfied) then there will be war.

Sad, but true.

Thats a very westernized view of war. There are literal race wars & religious wars in africa & the middle east. Wars are fought for all kinds of stupid reasons, not just because a dictator wants to rise to power. We are lucky to live in a society evolved enough to not partake in decade long race wars like Sudan or Kenya. We are lucky to have a culture evolved enough to restrict war from being used for things like that.

We are SUPPOSED TO BE CIVILIZED. But the truth is that WE ARE NOT.

Compared to what?

I think it is better to teach our children the concept of understanding the difference between what we can change and can not change. We need COURAGE, WISDOM and ACCEPTANCE in order to dedipher the difference... not some silly analogy about your next door neighboor beating and killing his wife.

HOW MANY OF YOU RIGHT NOW KNOW FOR A FACT OF ANY OF YOUR FRIENDS THAT IS PUTTING HIS/HER HANDS ON THEIR S/O YET YOU DO FUCKING NOT A GODDAMNED THING!? WHY DO YOU DO NOTHING? BECAUSE THEN IT *MIGHT* FUCK UP YOUR FRIENDSHIP AND HELL, THE FRIENDSHIP WAS MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL BEFORE YOU KNEW, RIGHT? FUCK, YOU NEVER SAW HIM OR HER PUT THEIR HANDS ON THEIR S/O RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM DID YOU? SO THEN THAT MUST MEAN THAT IT ISN'T REALLY HAPPENING .... RIGHT?!?!

(I say his or her because believe it or not women can be just as violent and abusive as men and the men are even MORE ashamed than the women to admit it happens.)

Please spare me this nonsense.

I am VERY SUPPORTIVE of your servicemen and women. It is because of them that I can sit here safely and not have to worry about tanks rolling down my street - BUT I also believe that such a story is HIGHLY IRRESPONSIBLE and HYPOCRITICAL.

Look, even though skepticism is healthy, there is a difference between skepticism & unadulterated cynicism. To claim that no country can possibly do good, ever, no matter what, would be a myth.







I have become everything i hate. When did this happen?

 

[Bikini Mod]

Darlin' I never said that the US never did anyone any good by intervening. The US HAS done it in the past, is doing it now and I am sure will continue to do it in the future. All I am saying is that to paint the US as some sort of "neighbor who is duty-bound" to stand up for ALL that as wrong in the world by ridding the world of "bad neighbors" is simply not accurate.

THE US IS AS SELF-SERVING AS ANY OTHER COUNTRY. Is this a good thing? Is it a bad thing? There is no ONE "correct" answer. To sit here and argue politics (which is all propaganda anyway because NONE of us knows "the truth") to JUSTIFY war is PLAIN SILLY.

To say that ALL Iraqis are this way, ALL Americans are that way, ALL French are the third way, etc and so on IS EQUALLY SILLY.

And I believe that my "idea" of war is not westernized at all. REGARDLESS if the war is a race war, religious war, war to gain territory WHATEVER - Person A is an agressive asshole, Person B is not = WAR.

I am not totally cynical. My statements were NOT blanket statements that said ALL "THIS" is BAD or ALL "THAT". I was merely speaking to the article that was originally posted. Being a parent AND a victim of domestic violence I think you can understand WHY I got so pissed as I believe the article was VERY POORLY authored at best and VERY IRRESPONSIBLE at least... and I also feel that the individual ADVOCATED the author's point of view and played a role in the proliferation of such nonsense by posting it here on the WWW. Remember people, the pen is mightier than the sword!

But hey, free speech.

The author had their right to it. The individual that posted it here had his right to free speech. I am only excersizing my right (within the confines of Elite's policies) to EXPRESS MY thoughts and reactions to what I read.

No name-calling, no BS, no flame fest, no disrespect. Stern words? ABSOLUTELY! These are topics that I take VERY SERIOUSLY.

This isn't about right or wrong or even conflict. A little conflict IS a healthy thing. After all, I always said that new ideas are born from conflict..... are they not?

I guess the thing that REALLY set me off were the paralells that the author drew between explaining war to a child and DOMESTIC VIOLENCE....

I ASK AGAIN - HOW MANY OF YOU KNOW PEOPLE OR EVEN REMOTELY SUSPECT THAT A CHILD/A MAN/OR A WOMAN IS THE VICTIM OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.... YET YOU STAND BY SILENTLY AND DO NOTHING?!?!?!!!! AND EVEN CONTINUE TO CALL THOSE PEOPLE "YOUR FRIEND"?

 

[kronk]

For Ranger

In follow up to the post, these are added at Rangers request.

 

[The Ranger]

To the *State Farm Insurance* tune......

"And like a good neighbor....The USA is there..."

And please notice the Black Berets on those heads....That was back in the day when you earned the right to wear one....<wink>

Heh heh heh

Ranger

Ranger

 

[lil k]

nice pics ranger.....my little fuck buddy....bwbwhahahaha

 

[The Ranger]

Heh heh heh.....YUMMY-LISH-US

How are ya *Sunshine*...??

Ranger

 

[naturally anabolic]

you two need a room....

 

[The Ranger]

What for....Her bedroom is big enough for three my man.....heh heh heh

Ranger

 

[lil k]

lol....i figured i would just say that since "some" people seem to think that shit anyway.....bwwwhahahahahaha

doing good sexy....just getting ready to head out the door...time to go buy about 30lbs of chicken....talk to you soon....muah!!!

 

[The Ranger]

*smooch*

Ranger

 

[naturally anabolic]

you mean the mods dont have wild group orgy get togethers hosted by GS?

 

[The Ranger]

How do you think we became Mods in the first place biscuit-head....heh heh heh

Ranger

 

[Bikini Mod]

Classically "Ranger-esque".....

Many men and women have died SELFLESSLY defending and helping others. They come from all socio-economic backgrounds, ethnicities, religions. ALL HAVE MY RESPECT AND ETERNAL GRATITUDE.

Many men and women have dedicated their lives (not DIED but dedicated their lives' work) ALSO IN THIS PURSUIT.

Who is "righter"... who is "better"? Is the soldiers' sacrifice any greater than the sacrifice of a missionary nun? Is the impact of the leader of a nation any greater than the impact of a kindergarten teacher from Kentucky?... and so what if it was - Is that determined solely by fame and notariety? Who is to say that that because of the influence of that particular kindergarten teacher a future nation's leader will not be able to DIRECTLY AFFECT POLICY OR LAW?!

...Or is the mere conception of such a question totally missing the point?

"If one can not impact hundreds of thousands then perhaps they shouldn't even bother trying to positively affect EVEN ONE OTHER PERSON?!" RIGHT?

We all have a place in this world. How we choose to impact the lives of others is not determined by ANY EXTERNAL FORCE - IT IS DETERMINED SOLELY BY THE CONTENT OF OUR CHARACTER.

THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING...

Perhaps I am simple and if the shoe fits I will gladly wear it.

 

[Bikini Mod]

And not to split hairs but since Ranger said that he didn't necessarily agree with the original author's point of view (though he didn't deny agreeing with it either) I am still curious as to why he felt the need to begin this thread posting THAT PARTICULAR article.

Ranger's words:

"No. 1... I never said I wrote, nor agreed with that article.
No. 2... Because I posted it, I was attacked, sent horrible red karma, and even 1 very nasty PM.
No. 3... On this post, did I ever once advocate this post as a lesson to our young children..."

He then went on to say that his whole point had something to do with diplomacy...

I do not understand how the article he posted had ANYTHING to do with diplomacy.

 

[Ffactor]

Once again a thread about explaining war has turned into orgies, smoochies, chicken and a discussion of other inanimate objects. I think this is a direct reflection of our society. We cannot make up our minds, is this war about WMD's, MOABS, SBDS, STD's, freeing the Iraqi's or spreading democracy? Until we learn to focus our energy I don't think we can complete any of these objectives. To quote MassiveGunz reporting from Iraq:

Bors, I tink Sadman is deaf. I droped a hyuge siens boms on him. Ther's a lot of lootin goin on. Ia m lokin fer som MGDies but can't find em. The iraqistani ladis luv my mountin us gunz. Hey bors, can u faxs me som MGD's if ure pikin up what i'm putin down on my cel phon.

 

[Ffactor]

Bump for more war stories!

 

[Temple]

I'm still trying to figure out what was so offensive about the original post.....
Sometimes you have to stand up and do the right thing.
Sometimes war is the only solution and sometimes you have to look at the greater good. So what if we will benefit down the road, it doesn't make us any less justified now.

The french seem to have forgotten what we did for them, I hope we are not so quick to forget what they didn't do.

 

[SUST-MAN]

Temple...i think you are also forgeting what the French did for us. Do more research. We are even steven with the french as far as favors go.

 

[The Ranger]

I beg to differ on that account Sust-Man, but, for a good debate on the topic, please post the facts, and let's see where we go my man....

Ranger

 

[Bikini Mod]

I'm still trying to figure out what was so offensive about the original post.....
Sometimes you have to stand up and do the right thing.
Sometimes war is the only solution and sometimes you have to look at the greater good. So what if we will benefit down the road, it doesn't make us any less justified now.

The french seem to have forgotten what we did for them, I hope we are not so quick to forget what they didn't do.

To say that this war is justified because it is akin to "not drawing your blinds when your neighbor is beating the shit out of his wife" IS OFFENSIVE... at least it is to me on several levels only one of which I care to speak to on an open forum.

I especially find this HYPOCRITICAL because it states that the US stands up and defends their helpless neighbors simply because it is the right thing to do and NOT because it is self-serving AT ALL.

Where was the US when my parents' country had Russian tanks rolling down the street in October of 1956? MY PARENTS' COUNTRY BEGGED THE US FOR HELP POST-WWII WHEN THE RUSSIANS TRIED LIKE MOTHERFUCKERS TO OCCUPY MOST OF EASTERN EUROPE....

WAIT A MINUTE...

THEY DID.

So please spare me the "neighbor standing up PURELY because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO" justification of this war.

I was raised with stories of how my father came to this country with nothing but the uniform on his back. Had my father NOT deserted his country - HE WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED.

Desert BECAUSE YOUR COUNTRY BEGGED FOR HELP BUT GOT NONE AND MAYBE LIVE TO SEE ANOTHER DAY NOT KNOWING WHERE YOU WILL GO OR HOW YOU WILL LIVE KNOWING FULL WELL THAT YOU ARE LEAVING EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING THAT YOU HAVE EVER KNOWN BEHIND MAYBE NEVER SEEING THEM AGAIN?!... OR STAY AND SURELY DIE BECAUSE "YOUR BIGGER STRONGER NEIGHBOR THAT WOULD SURELY STAND UP FOR YOU ESPECIALLY BECAUSE YOU BEGGED FOR HELP - DIDN'T?!"

My mother spent the revolution (which was VERY QUICKLY SQUELCHED) in a hospital wondering when the next bomb would land on them.

And for the record - my mother came to this country several years later with ONE change of clothing BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS CAME - THEY TOOK - AND LEFT ALMOST NOTHING FOR THE PEOPLE THAT WERE THEIR TO BEGIN WITH.

Gee, you think that perhaps the US offered political assylum and immigration opportunities to so many from my parents' country because THEY SILENTLY STOOD BY AND DID NOTHING WHILE SO MANY WERE MURDERED, HAD EVERYTHING THEY EVER WORKED FOR STOLEN AND LEFT THEIR ECONOMY CRIPPLED?!

DO I HATE ALL RUSSIANS NOW?

DO I HATE ALL AMERICANS NOW?

NO - I DO NOT! I HATE ALL BULLY-MOTHER FUCKERS (AND FOR ME THEIR ETHNICITY, SKIN COLOR, RELIGION, WHATEVER HAS ZERO TO DO WITH HOW I DETERMINE WHO A BULLY-MOTHERFUCKER IS.... ) NOW AND I FIND HYPOCRITES EVEN MORE DETESTABLE.

One would think that I would SURELY be PRO-WAR ESPECIALLY because my parents' country WAS NOT HELPED....

GUESS WHAT?!

I AM NOT PRO-WAR... OR EVEN PRO-VIOLENCE.

.....Imagine that.

And I am so sorry that any of you buy the bullshit media propaganda that "the French" this or "the Afghanies" that... blah, blah, blah. Just as I am sorry that any NON-AMERICAN buys the anti-American propaganda that is proliferated throughout the world.

I am not pro-French or anti-American.

I am PRO-HUMAN KIND.... and ANTI-HIPOCRASY.

Again, call me simple.... but works for me.

For the record, not gettin' pissy with anyone. Just explaining MY point of view.

I am still waiting on responses from the originator of the thread.

 

[Ffactor]

Well to be honest with you I'm happy that Saddam is gone but I'm still a tad bit confused about the whole war thingy so I can't really blame the French for being confused either. On a side note kinimom's boyfriend is a commie and I don't think I like him at all!

 

[Bikini Mod]

LOL@FFactor!

 

[Ffactor]

War is a breakdown in humanity no matter what the circumstances are.

 

[Bikini Mod]

War is a breakdown in humanity no matter what the circumstances are.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it...

However, THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS THREAD OFFERED QUITE A DIFFERENT EXPLANATION WITH THE EXAMPLE CITED.

If I understand correctly (and until the originator informs me otherwise this is my understanding) -

THE EXPLANATION FOR WAR IS "STANDING UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT"... IN ESSENCE PRESERVING OR PREVENTING FURTHER BREAKDOWN OF HUMANITY.

Don't the two explanations seem contradictory?

Or is it just me, being simple again?

 

[Ffactor]

My opinion is too idealistic and out of fashion these days. War is unavoidable sometimes. History will tell whether this war is considered to be a success or a failure and what the true reasons were behind it. I am not naive enough to think this was about freeing the Iraqi people. We shall have to wait and see. I hope the troops come home safe and that the Iraqi's can live a better life. I wonder what the History books will say about the thousands of Iraqi children that have died due to sanctions.

 

[Bikini Mod]

My opinion is too idealistic and out of fashion these days. War is unavoidable sometimes. History will tell whether this war is considered to be a success or a failure and what the true reasons were behind it. I am not naive enough to think this was about freeing the Iraqi people. We shall have to wait and see. I hope the troops come home safe and that the Iraqi's can live a better life. I wonder what the History books will say about the thousands of Iraqi children that have died due to sanctions.

Sadly, I don't believe a single history book will mention a single one.

And for those of you who think that I think the French government is any more noble than the American government you are waaaaaay off-base.

The French government was ONE that did not agree with the US going to war with Iraq. I still don't understand why all I keep hearing about IS THE FUCKING FRENCH? Why do I not see so many threads begun ABOUT EVERY OTHER GOVERNMENT that opposed the US going to war with IRAQ?!

(Please take note of the use of the word GOVERNMENT in my last paragraph.) I differentiate between the government of a country and THE PEOPLE that live therein.

Again, please feel free to call me simple.... but STILL works for me.

 

[Ffactor]

Sadly, I don't believe a single history book will mention a single one.

And for those of you who think that I think the French government is any more noble than the American government you are waaaaaay off-base.

The French government was ONE that did not agree with the US going to war with Iraq. I still don't understand why all I keep hearing about IS THE FUCKING FRENCH? Why do I not see so many threads begun ABOUT EVERY OTHER GOVERNMENT that opposed the US going to war with IRAQ?!

(Please take note of the use of the word GOVERNMENT in my last paragraph.) I differentiate between the government of a country and THE PEOPLE that live therein.

Again, please feel free to call me simple.... but STILL works for me.

Very good point. Just about 70% of the world opposed this war and I agree that most of us fail to distinguish between governments and people.

 

[chesty]

Wtihout reading through most of this, I think some have missed the point of the story.

How do you explain war, death, disease, famine, rape, murder, torture, etc to a 9 year old child who when he is eleven has already figured out how to murder another human being and sometimes does.

If we shelter our children to the point of utopian beliefs then we have done them a diservice. The father, whether or not this was a true story, got his son to realize that one cannot wait until it affects him directly, because then it is to late. So even though it is unpopular sometimes we must act without help and alone at times.

As for why were we friends with Iraq in 82, or Iran later on? Or for that matter, why are we friends with Pakistan and Turkey now? It is because it is convenient for us. We make friends and alliances with those that meet our needs at the time. If Husseing had not gone off the deep end, things would be very different.

As for condemning Israel and then thanking them, remember, hindsight is always 20/20.

I believe we did fight to remove Hussein and also to free the Iraqi people. If not, we would be erecting our flags all over their country.

As for the sanctions, that fucking piece of shit country got plenty of medicine and food. Their dicktator kept it for himself and pals. He is responsible for the problems of his country. Not us! He knew exactly what he had to do. If he had done that the first time without all the bullshit, he might still be around runningthe country.

Truth is he was probably as fucked up as Hitler. Next we go to Syria, and a few other places.

Everyone wants us to be the worlds police, well, guess what now we are, so they need to just stand the fuck by!

 

[Bikini Mod]

Wtihout reading through most of this, I think some have missed the point of the story.

How do you explain war, death, disease, famine, rape, murder, torture, etc to a 9 year old child who when he is eleven has already figured out how to murder another human being and sometimes does.

Quite easily Chesty.

Person A is an agressive asshole. Person B is not = WAR. Nothing sugar coated, just cold hard fact. Why does it have to be that way? BECAUSE THAT IS JUST HOW IT IS.

I tell my girls all the time that regardless of how "nice" they are to some people that doesn't automatically mean that that "niceness" will be returned. Actually, that many times THE TOTAL OPPOSITE WILL HAPPEN and that this has nothing to do with them and everything to do with that other person.

Everyone wants us to be the worlds police, well, guess what now we are, so they need to just stand the fuck by!

While I respect your opinions and support your right to voice them I don't necessarily agree with everything you say. MANY countries clearly did NOT want the US to be "the world police" in this case. Is this right or wrong? Honestly, I feel to debate that is silly.

As for the US being "the world police", I don't buy that either. Sorry, but the US having IGNORED all of eastern europe when the Russians were busy taking it over especially when this was a case when the world DID ASK FOR THE US TO BE "THE WORLD POLICE" just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when this arguement is used. Where was "Big Brother" when my parent's country was being crushed and THOSE PEOPLE rose up against the Russians in an attempt to take their country back? One would think as a result of this that I would surely support war (especially if it is one where the US is "trying to be the world police"). Nope, sorry I STILL DON'T.

It was even offered to me that just because the US DIDN'T help back then that doesn't negate "THE FACT" that the US is TRYING TO HELP the Iraqi's now.

Nope, sorry STILL DOESN'T FLY WITH ME.

Am I right? Am I wrong? - NOT THE POINT.

I support our servicemen and women 100% - no question. I believe that the US is a fine country - no question.

BUT -

I am STILL ANTI-WAR and think it damned arrogant and foolhearty for ANY COUNTRY (not just the US) to think it is the center of the universe and "the only one whose opinions matter."

 

[Ffactor]

OK Chesty I'll bite. We went in to Iraq to remove Saddam and free the people. Excellent! If Syria is next what is our objective there?

 

[Temple]

Quite easily Chesty.

Person A is an agressive asshole. Person B is not = WAR. Nothing sugar coated, just cold hard fact. Why does it have to be that way? BECAUSE THAT IS JUST HOW IT IS.

I tell my girls all the time that regardless of how "nice" they are to some people that doesn't automatically mean that that "niceness" will be returned. Actually, that many times THE TOTAL OPPOSITE WILL HAPPEN and that this has nothing to do with them and everything to do with that other person.



While I respect your opinions and support your right to voice them I don't necessarily agree with everything you say. MANY countries clearly did NOT want the US to be "the world police" in this case. Is this right or wrong? Honestly, I feel to debate that is silly.

As for the US being "the world police", I don't buy that either. Sorry, but the US having IGNORED all of eastern europe when the Russians were busy taking it over especially when this was a case when the world DID ASK FOR THE US TO BE "THE WORLD POLICE" just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when this arguement is used. Where was "Big Brother" when my parent's country was being crushed and THOSE PEOPLE rose up against the Russians in an attempt to take their country back? One would think as a result of this that I would surely support war (especially if it is one where the US is "trying to be the world police"). Nope, sorry I STILL DON'T.

It was even offered to me that just because the US DIDN'T help back then that doesn't negate "THE FACT" that the US is TRYING TO HELP the Iraqi's now.

Nope, sorry STILL DOESN'T FLY WITH ME.

Am I right? Am I wrong? - NOT THE POINT.

I support our servicemen and women 100% - no question. I believe that the US is a fine country - no question.

BUT -

I am STILL ANTI-WAR and think it damned arrogant and foolhearty for ANY COUNTRY (not just the US) to think it is the center of the universe and "the only one whose opinions matter."

You have made it abundantly clear that you are ANTI-WAR. What exactly is your solution?
Soldier is just another word for warrior and whether they are acting defensively or offensively their function is to wage war.
ANTI - WAR = ANTI SOLDIER!

 

[Ffactor]

You have made it abundantly clear that you are ANTI-WAR. What exactly is your solution?
Soldier is just another word for warrior and whether they are acting defensively or offensively their function is to wage war.
ANTI - WAR = ANTI SOLDIER!

Interesting, the first pro-war woman on Elite! Anti War = Anti Soldier??????????/

 

[chesty]

We did not help a lot of the European country's in the fifties and later because of the nuclear threat. At that time Russia nor US would have really thought about using nukes twice. Korea the First UN fuck up left us depleted and weary of war.

Whether or not we like it we are the worlds police. If we act we are damned. If we don't act we are damned just as you pointed out with your homeland. Just think if the US had stayed isolationist in WWI.

War is ugly, it is a human trait and it is our nature. We are carnivoristic animals with the instinct to fight. It does not matter how intelligent we become or how evolved. Our natural tendency is to fight. It is ugly and it is the truth.

As for only doing what is right such as in the story of this thread. How many times have you or someone else been driving down the street and did not stop to help an accident victim or saw a neighbor or stranger getting the shit beat out of them, etc and did nothing? Sooner or later we have enough and act. Unfortunately it can be too late as the story pointed out.

The way I look at it is this. This is my country and it is my duty to defend her no matter what. Even if it means that defense is the most unpopular in the world.

Why were they against us? France, etc. they are hiding shit. Now that we have done the dirty work, they are all trying to divi up Iraq like it is there personal possessions. France is rejoicing, etc.

Those are the hypocrits and bullshittes that should be closely watched.

As for Syria, they helped to murder 281 of my brother Marines in 1983 while they slept helping another third world piece of shit country. For me it is as simplistic as it gets:

IT IS FUCKING PAYBACK! PLAIN AND SIMPLE! AS SIMPLE AS A HUMAN EMOTION CAN GET! DON'T LIKE IT, OH WELL, DON'T GIVE A FUCK

 

[Ffactor]

Excellent! We should start with Israel, followed by Syria, Libya and Saudi Arabia. Totally agree with you Chesty, payback for the marines accidentally killed by Israel, Syria, Libya and Saudi Arabia. I am in 100% agreement!

 

[TheProject]

You have made it abundantly clear that you are ANTI-WAR. What exactly is your solution?
Soldier is just another word for warrior and whether they are acting defensively or offensively their function is to wage war.
ANTI - WAR = ANTI SOLDIER!

My boss was giving me the same speech the other day, and how the protestors shouldn't speak out because it could negatively impact the morale of the soldiers.

I tend to think that the United States stands for and defends freedom, even if that freedom means that certain individuals say things that others find distasteful.

And the whole idea of war as payback is asinine.

 

[Bikini Mod]

You have made it abundantly clear that you are ANTI-WAR. What exactly is your solution?
Soldier is just another word for warrior and whether they are acting defensively or offensively their function is to wage war.
ANTI - WAR = ANTI SOLDIER!

I respect your feelings however, I must humbly disagree.

Anti-war DOES NOT = anti soldier.

And I am sadly at a loss for a solution. I never said that I DID have one. This is a global phenomena that transcends the thought of any individual, especially someone that has a little sophistication as me. I know ZERO about politics and have very little experience when it comes to the ways of the world - admittedly.

Your feelings are based on the emotional connection you have with soldiers that you know personally and I respect that. HOWEVER, my feelings are based on an emotional connection to a man that is NOT a soldier but who is risking his life TO AID IN SAVING THE LIVES OF ALL PRESENT INCLUDING WHAT MAY BE THE VERY SAME SOLDIERS THAT YOU KNOW.

It is because of this that I can say 100% without ANY reservations whatsoever that I AM ANTI-WAR and NOT ANTI-SOLDIER.

Chesty, I have PERSONALLY been hung out to dry by more than a few "friends" and I have also been helped by total strangers. I have not forgotten all the good that came when I needed help most, however, I have also learned to stand on my own two feet.

Have their been times when I SHOULD HAVE intervened? YES.

Have their been times when I SHOULD HAVE stayed the fuck out? YES.

Hindsight is 20/20 and we all have weaknesses and human frailties. One can only do what they think is best with the given circumstances and the rest is up to the universe.

You are correct - War is ugly and it IS a sad reality. No way around it sometimes I suppose.

I am not supporting ANY government but to make a blanket statement about A PEOPLE based simply on the actions of their government is NOT CORRECT and limiting to the individual that holds those beliefs. One can not categorize the feelings of ALL the people in a country based strictly on the policy of their government.

Many of you might simply say that this has a lot to do with my feelings about ONE MAN... and perhaps it does. BUT - just because I personally know of ONE EXAMPLE of a human being (who is flawed and certainly NOT GOD) does not mean that ALL of his countrymen all equally good. I am sure that his country is filled with many people that are less than wonderful if not downright less than human. So I ask then in this respect, how is his country so different than mine?

And Chesty, I am sorry but I humbly must disagree with your assessment of why the US did not help the eastern european countries when they needed it most. But because I feel no need to argue with you or anyone about this I am telling you FLAT OUT THAT I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE REASONS AS TO WHY THE US DID NOT HELP OUT as I bear no resentment towards the US for it. The only reason I brought it up in the first place was because of your "the US being the world police" arguement. It simply doesn't hold water.

Bottom line - life isn't fair and there is no justice.

I am much too simple to argue intelligently about politics and how to end the devastation that is tyranny and war and how to bring about world peace. Heck, I can't even have a normal conversation to the man that I was married to for 11 years.

But what I CAN DO is NOT TEACH MY CHILDREN HATE. What I have seen on countless threads here on elite is "the French" this and "The Iraqis" that and "The muslims" the other thing and "the US" the third... countless statements of hate and fear based on ignorance and even though my words may mean very little in the grand scheme of things I had just had enough and felt it time to TRY to help people see that no good ever comes from the proliferation of hate and HYPOCRASY.

 

[Temple]

I absolutely believe in the right to protest. I believe in the right to oppose the war. I will defend your right to do that to the end but that does not mean that others do not have the right to be offended by your protest. What chaps my butt is when people say "I oppose the war but I support our troops". The troops are the WARriors. They are doing what they signed up to do. I challenge you to find ONE American soldier who buys that line.

 

[Bikini Mod]

It is NOT a line.

You are arguing semantics and I don't understand the point.

I think you misunderstand what it is that I am protesting. And that I guess, is my fault more than anything else because I can't show you or give you what it is that is inside of me. For my ineptness in this area, I do apologize and hope that you can forgive me some day.

Is war a necessary evil? Sadly, it is, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it OR agree with it. Is use of force and violence necessary sometimes, even often. Even more sadly - YES IT IS and I wish that it weren't so, but I am also not about to sit here and deny that it isn't.

Sadly, my friend then on this issue I will agree to disagree with you....

I will miss you when I am gone. I thank you for all the wisdom and guidance that you have offered me in the past. Because I knew you, my life has been unforgettably altered for the better. Thank you for all the countless hours of your kind support. You may think that I have forgotten. I am no foreign government. I was your friend then and regardless of what you might feel I am your friend now.

Luv U - T...

 

[Ffactor]

Where are you going mommy??

 

[Bikini Mod]

Nowhere really.... it is more of a "mental" and "emotional" thing I guess... except where ever my dreams will take me.

I will live my dreams so that my life will no longer consume them.

I have decided that my divorce IS OVER. No more fighting because it is hurting my girls too much. I will yield to my husband and give him EXACTLY what he says that he has wanted all along.

I am tired of fighting.

I am tired of hate.

I am tired of hypocrasy.

If this makes me ANTI-AMERICAN then I will gladly wear THAT SHOE.

 

[Ffactor]

You mean legally over or over in your mind??

 

[Bikini Mod]

BOTH

 

[Bikini Mod]

And I am sorry, but the correct quote is that I will now make my dreams consume my life so that my life will consume my dreams no longer.

 

[Ffactor]

Cool!

 

[Bikini Mod]

Something just occured to me and I offer it up to you all as another way to TRY to explain my beliefs to you. Perhaps you will all take less offense with this.

The notion that the only WARiors are soldiers is another belief that I do not ascripe to.

Were Mahatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr not also warriors?

Why does one have to KILL in order to be a warrior?

 

[Frackal]

I absolutely believe in the right to protest. I believe in the right to oppose the war. I will defend your right to do that to the end but that does not mean that others do not have the right to be offended by your protest. What chaps my butt is when people say "I oppose the war but I support our troops". The troops are the WARriors. They are doing what they signed up to do. I challenge you to find ONE American soldier who buys that line.

What a moronic post.

If people had taken this philosophy during vietnam, the war never would have ended. I'm sure those troops would have felt good about your support though right before a vietcong munition ripped their life away.

 

[Bikini Mod]

I absolutely believe in the right to protest. I believe in the right to oppose the war. I will defend your right to do that to the end but that does not mean that others do not have the right to be offended by your protest. What chaps my butt is when people say "I oppose the war but I support our troops". The troops are the WARriors. They are doing what they signed up to do. I challenge you to find ONE American soldier who buys that line.

Correct me if I am wrong but when one signs up for the armed services do they not automatically give up the right to disagree with their government? Is it not THEIR JOB to uphold the decisions of their government? They MUST and are dutibound to FOLLOW ORDERS.

If a soldier is drafted then he MUST GO whether he supports a war or NOT.

I wonder if there any veterans of Vietnam who would buy my line?

And not that it matters because perhaps it does not. But my Frenchman's father WAS a career soldier. First his father served 7 years in Vietnam. Came home to his wife who conceived my Frenchman then left for another 7 years for Algeria.

It seems that my Frenchman found a peaceful solution afterall to the horror that is war as he gave up a lucrative career in private practise to do mission work for the Red Cross and continues to do so to this day even though he struggles daily with the notion that he may never have a "personal life" or a family because of it.

One person can not change the world.... or can they? I know that because of my having personal knowledge of ONE MAN the way that I have come to view the world and the people in it have changed.... FOR THE BETTER.

Again, I offer to you the example of Mahatma Ghandi....

Who had a profound effect on Martin Luther King, Jr.....

 

[chesty]

No we do not give up any right period when we join the military.

And what Marines did the Israelis kill? Syria did not accidentally kill any Marines they helped to murder them.

 

[Bikini Mod]

I stand corrected Chesty. I really thought that if one joins the service then that means they will follow the orders of their government whether they personally are in agreement or not.

 

[vinylgroover]

I stand corrected Chesty. I really thought that if one joins the service then that means they will follow the orders of their government whether they personally are in agreement or not.

You are right 'E'. A soldier has to follow his orders whether he agrees or not. Otherwise, he'll be court martialled

 

[chesty]

You are wrong. I am only required to follow lawful orders. Direct orders can be disobeyed as well if it concerns destruction of property, requires me to injure another human being, or requires me to break the law.

We will follow orders when the make sense and are lawful. We do not give up our right to disagree with the gov't or any other right. People not in the military need to really understand this. We are no different than you. We just get paid a lot less to put up with a lot more bullshit.

 

[Bikini Mod]

I have to honestly say that I didn't know this.