ESTROGEN 101 Before you use anything, read this.

[Nelson Montana]

This is may be common knowledge to a lot of vets but to many others, here's a very basic understanding of using anti-e's. This includes serms, aromatase blockers, etc. For now let's call them all anti-e's because that's what they're doing.

I will conciously avoid sounding too technical and keep it simple.

First, there was Nolvadex: This, in my opinion, is an outdated drug. It was never very good in the first place. Dan Duchaine, who was basically the guy who brought it to the bodybuilding communities attention (Dan was way ahead of his time) even admitted it kinda sucked toward the end. Nolva BLOCKS e, which in a sense means it can have a rebound effect. It also only blocks it at the breast site. So, if you have a propensity for gyno, Nolva may help, but you'd be better off changing what was causing the gyno in the first place. Rating: D-

Proviron: I was a big advocate of this drug for a long time but I think there are better choices now since Proviron is liver toxic and not good for long term use. Proviron reduces SHBG which allows for more free testosterone and more DHT. Estrogen can not survive in the presense of these two substances. Rating: C+

Clomid: Clomid is a weak estrogen which occupies the estrogen sites preventing the formation of excess estrogen. Great. Only there are two problems. Once; it has negative side effects on vision and mood. And two; the fact that it's an estrogen can cause an imbalance in some men resulting to what is essentially MORE estrogenic effects. It's also liver toxic.
Rating: For those it works for C-. For those it doesn't; F

Arimedex: The drug of choice in most cases. The only side effect is lowering of HDL but this is usually only is dosages that are completely unnecessary. Rating: A

Femara: (Letrozole) Similar to a-dex but has a negative effect on libido in some. Rating: C

Aromasan: Similar to a-dex but without the adverse effect on lipids, though may also cause a loss of libido in some which may be avoided if dosages remain low. Rating: B

Natural supps.

DIM: Works similarly to Clomid in that it's a weak estrogen. Works for some, has the opposite effect on others. Rating: C-

Indole 3 carbinol: Found in cruciferous vegetables. Works like DIM.
Rating: C-

Chrysin: Good, safe, but poorly absorbed. Absorbtion can be increased with the use of Bioperine or possibly transdermal administartion. "Post Cycle" uses Bioperine. "Dermacrine" uses a topical solution. Both have been shown to be very effective. Rating: B+

Procyanadin/Resveratrol: Two new entires that show a lot of promise in acting as aromatase inhibitors. Best option CyogenX. Rating: B

Calcium D Glucanate: Proven to stop estrogen from forming yet will not lower it to dangerous levels. Also has great potential as a anti cancer agent. "Post Cycle" also contains Calcium D Glucarate. Rating: A

Avenacosides A&B: These do not lower estrogen but they block SHBG which increases free testosterone (similar to Proviron). This not only prevents estrogen from forming but increases the amount of bioavailable testosterone in the bloodstream. Good for natural athletes but even better for those using gear to get the most out of it. Best choice. "Unleashed" (Of course) Rating: A


Pro-hormones. (6-OXO. AIFM, etc). Garbage. The work of amateur chemists. Real doctors laugh at this stuff. Expensive too. 6 OXO claims a 200% increase in testosterone which is insulting to the intellegence of the serious bodybuilding community. AIFM uses a mild diuretic which gives the user the belief that he lost "estro bloat." Ironically, this is the opposite of "Androsteine", created by the same hucksters, which increased estrogen causing water retention. This in trun made the users think they were gaining size! The people who make this stuff should be in jail. Oh, wait a minute...they are.

Recommendations

Always use the lowest amount of any drug to get the maximum effect.

Always add a natural substance to safely improve the effects of the drug regime.

For natties in-between cycles; "Post Cycle" along with "CytogenX" or "Dermacrine" are more than enough to keep excess estrogen at bay.

For those on HRT: 1/4 mg of a-dex 3X's a week plus low dose CytogenX, Dermacrine or Post Cycle.

For those on a cycle; Arimidex or Aromasan, whichever you feel works best for you. 1/2mg of a-dex a day is usually enough even for heavy cycles. The addition of "Unleashed" and "CytogenX" is recommended during the cycle and "Unleashed" and "Post Cycle" is recommended afterward.


There you have it. Some may disagree with a point here and there but that's basically the long and short of it. If more people understood these simple principles they'd be a lot less problems and misunderstandings about estrogen, preventing problems while on, and proper PCT.

Hope it helps.

 

[juniorsamples]

Very Informative, Thank you.

 

[Triple J]

biased rant disguised as an overview

 

[RottenWillow]

biased rant disguised as an overview

rebut his assertions then.

 

[needtogetaas]

This is may be common knowledge to a lot of vets but to many others, here's a very basic understanding of using anti-e's. This includes serms, aromatase blockers, etc. For now let's call them all anti-e's because that's what they're doing.

I will conciously avoid sounding too technical and keep it simple.

First, there was Nolvadex: This, in my opinion, is an outdated drug. It was never very good in the first place. Dan Duchaine, who was basically the guy who brought it to the bodybuilding communities attention (Dan was way ahead of his time) even admitted it kinda sucked toward the end. Nolva BLOCKS e, which in a sense means it can have a rebound effect. It also only blocks it at the breast site. So, if you have a propensity for gyno, Nolva may help, but you'd be better off changing what was causing the gyno in the first place. Rating: D-

Proviron: I was a big advocate of this drug for a long time but I think there are better choices now since Proviron is liver toxic and not good for long term use. Proviron reduces SHBG which allows for more free testosterone and more DHT. Estrogen can not survive in the presense of these two substances. Rating: C+

Clomid: Clomid is a weak estrogen which occupies the estrogen sites preventing the formation of excess estrogen. Great. Only there are two problems. Once; it has negative side effects on vision and mood. And two; the fact that it's an estrogen can cause an imbalance in some men resulting to what is essentially MORE estrogenic effects. It's also liver toxic.
Rating: For those it works for C-. For those it doesn't; F

Arimedex: The drug of choice in most cases. The only side effect is lowering of HDL but this is usually only is dosages that are completely unnecessary. Rating: A

Femara: (Letrozole) Similar to a-dex but has a negative effect on libido in some. Rating: C

Aromasan: Similar to a-dex but without the adverse effect on lipids, though may also cause a loss of libido in some which may be avoided if dosages remain low. Rating: B

Natural supps.

DIM: Works similarly to Clomid in that it's a weak estrogen. Works for some, has the opposite effect on others. Rating: C-

Indole 3 carbinol: Found in cruciferous vegetables. Works like DIM.
Rating: C-

Chrysin: Good, safe, but poorly absorbed. Absorbtion can be increased with the use of Bioperine or possibly transdermal administartion. "Post Cycle" uses Bioperine. "Dermacrine" uses a topical solution. Both have been shown to be very effective. Rating: B+

Procyanadin/Resveratrol: Two new entires that show a lot of promise in acting as aromatase inhibitors. Best option CyogenX. Rating: B

Calcium D Glucanate: Proven to stop estrogen from forming yet will not lower it to dangerous levels. Also has great potential as a anti cancer agent. "Post Cycle" also contains Calcium D Glucarate. Rating: A

Avenacosides A&B: These do not lower estrogen but they block SHBG which increases free testosterone (similar to Proviron). This not only prevents estrogen from forming but increases the amount of bioavailable testosterone in the bloodstream. Good for natural athletes but even better for those using gear to get the most out of it. Best choice. "Unleashed" (Of course) Rating: A


Pro-hormones. (6-OXO. AIFM, etc). Garbage. The work of amateur chemists. Real doctors laugh at this stuff. Expensive too. 6 OXO claims a 200% increase in testosterone which is insulting to the intellegence of the serious bodybuilding community. AIFM uses a mild diuretic which gives the user the belief that he lost "estro bloat." Ironically, this is the opposite of "Androsteine", created by the same hucksters, which increased estrogen causing water retention. This in trun made the users think they were gaining size! The people who make this stuff should be in jail. Oh, wait a minute...they are.

Recommendations

Always use the lowest amount of any drug to get the maximum effect.

Always add a natural substance to safely improve the effects of the drug regime.

For natties in-between cycles; "Post Cycle" along with "CytogenX" or "Dermacrine" are more than enough to keep excess estrogen at bay.

For those on HRT: 1/4 mg of a-dex 3X's a week plus low dose CytogenX, Dermacrine or Post Cycle.

For those on a cycle; Arimidex or Aromasan, whichever you feel works best for you. 1/2mg of a-dex a day is usually enough even for heavy cycles. The addition of "Unleashed" and "CytogenX" is recommended during the cycle and "Unleashed" and "Post Cycle" is recommended afterward.


There you have it. Some may disagree with a point here and there but that's basically the long and short of it. If more people understood these simple principles they'd be a lot less problems and misunderstandings about estrogen, preventing problems while on, and proper PCT.

Hope it helps.

what????? who????? lets here it.....

 

[Triple J]

rebut his assertions then.

not a good knowledge-based overview. i would expect some background on estrogen and where it comes from and strategies to block or defeat it. what is aromatase. where does aromatase come from. what happens as you age. why some products work better in some people than others.

product bashing and pimping.

AIFM, 6OXO, aromasin all work on the same principal. suicide aromatase inhibtors. clomid, nolva. both are SERMS. ok now compare grades.

avena, herb that does very little to nothing to estrogen. it may have a small effect on SHBG. yet included in this overview in order to pimp a product.

proviron liver toxic? show me the data. rated lower than avena?

 

[RottenWillow]

Isnt Dermacrine based a prohormone? It active agents are converted in the body to a hormone, testosterone. Isnt that the defining feature of a prohomone?

So is it reccomended or not?

 

[needtogetaas]

Isnt Dermacrine based a prohormone? It active agents are converted in the body to a hormone, testosterone. Isnt that the defining feature of a prohomone?

So is it reccomended or not?

it has a lot more to it then that....

 

[Nelson Montana]

not a good knowledge-based overview. i would expect some background on estrogen and where it comes from and strategies to block or defeat it.
........................................................................

I WENT WITH THE PRESUMPTION THAT PEOPLE HERE ALREADY KNOW THAT. IF NOT, THEY NEED TO DO THEIR HOMEWORK.


what is aromatase. where does aromatase come from.
......................................................

FEEL FREE TO WRITE YOUR OWN POST ABOUT IT.




what happens as you age. why some products work better in some people than others.

...........................................................

I EXPLAINED THAT. READ IT AGAIN.





product bashing and pimping.

.......................................................

JUST PROVIDING THE FACTS. I DON'T MAKE A DIME FROM SOME OF PRODUCTS MENTIONED.


AIFM, 6OXO, aromasin all work on the same principal. suicide aromatase inhibtors. clomid, nolva. both are SERMS. ok now compare grades.


....................................................


WOO HOO!!! YOU CAN SPOUT DEFINITIONS FOUND IN ANY AD. YOU GET AN "A."


avena, herb that does very little to nothing to estrogen. it may have a small effect on SHBG. yet included in this overview in order to pimp a product.

.......................................................

SHBG IS A HUGE, OVERLOOKED FACTOR IN CONTROLING ESTROGEN.


proviron liver toxic? show me the data. rated lower than avena?

.............................................................

NOT AS BAD AS A 17 AA BUT NOT RECOMMENDED FOR LONG TERM USE.

BTW; WINSTROL WORKS IN A SIMILAR MANNER AS PROVIRON BUT IS 17- AA.

..

 

[jacshelb]

Wow, welcome back Nelson. How are things?


Jacob

 

[Nelson Montana]

Wow, welcome back Nelson. How are things?


Jacob

Things are good bro. Thanks.

Needtogetass. My buddy Rick Collins wouldn't like me answering your question. : ) But it's no secret that the ethics of a lot of these guys has led to their arrest, if not their incarceration. (Though in some cases that wouldn't hurt my feelings). At any rate I don't want the thread to be about that. Let's stick with dealing with estrogen.

 

[jamesG]

basically you make a bunch of unsustantiated claims and then attack the person that points this out.

real expert material.

Chrysin, bioperine or not, does not work orally.

NOLVA does not just work in breast tissue, thats just what its used for primarily. Treatment of breast cancer.

Clomid does not affect formation of estrogen. Its a serm like nolva with different binding profile.

resveratrol is a weak aromatase inhibitor, but I like this compound for health reasons. Orally without a delivery system I would say that bioavailibility is low. thats why red wine works but capsules dont.

calcium d-glucarate increases metabolism of estrogens and anabolic steroids, at least according to the studies.

Proviron is not liver toxic, unless you can provide references otherwise.

Chrysin, bioperine or not, does not work orally.

with respect to avencosides, you do realize that lowering SHBG also increases free estrogen, since estrogen has a higher affinity for SHBG.

AIFM contains ATD and DHEA, neither of which is a diuretic. ATD, 4-hydroxyandrostenedione and formestane are proven aromatase inhibitors.

arimidex is the worst of the "big three" aromatase inhibitors. drys out my joints and affects libido without stopping gyno.

Femara- works, if I need it, this is the stuff. But i wont use it more than 3-4 weeks.

Aromasin- its what I use all the time, works great. No impact on libido or joints.

you reccomend 2 things cytogenx, which has not even been released and dermacrine which you have not tried. as well as post cycle, which is your product. doesnt that seem wrong to you?

as far as PCT, you reccomend products that you have not tried and are not proven to work over things like HCG and clomid which are.

I would say all in all that not only is this a blatant sales pitch but it contains false information that would lead to poor recovery and gyno for many that would beleive it.

 

[Selene]

THank you for sharing

 

[krishna]

This is may be common knowledge to a lot of vets but to many others, here's a very basic understanding of using anti-e's. This includes serms, aromatase blockers, etc. For now let's call them all anti-e's because that's what they're doing.

I will conciously avoid sounding too technical and keep it simple.

First, there was Nolvadex: This, in my opinion, is an outdated drug. It was never very good in the first place. Dan Duchaine, who was basically the guy who brought it to the bodybuilding communities attention (Dan was way ahead of his time) even admitted it kinda sucked toward the end. Nolva BLOCKS e, which in a sense means it can have a rebound effect. It also only blocks it at the breast site. So, if you have a propensity for gyno, Nolva may help, but you'd be better off changing what was causing the gyno in the first place. Rating: D-

Proviron: I was a big advocate of this drug for a long time but I think there are better choices now since Proviron is liver toxic and not good for long term use. Proviron reduces SHBG which allows for more free testosterone and more DHT. Estrogen can not survive in the presense of these two substances. Rating: C+

Clomid: Clomid is a weak estrogen which occupies the estrogen sites preventing the formation of excess estrogen. Great. Only there are two problems. Once; it has negative side effects on vision and mood. And two; the fact that it's an estrogen can cause an imbalance in some men resulting to what is essentially MORE estrogenic effects. It's also liver toxic.
Rating: For those it works for C-. For those it doesn't; F

Arimedex: The drug of choice in most cases. The only side effect is lowering of HDL but this is usually only is dosages that are completely unnecessary. Rating: A

Femara: (Letrozole) Similar to a-dex but has a negative effect on libido in some. Rating: C

Aromasan: Similar to a-dex but without the adverse effect on lipids, though may also cause a loss of libido in some which may be avoided if dosages remain low. Rating: B

Natural supps.

DIM: Works similarly to Clomid in that it's a weak estrogen. Works for some, has the opposite effect on others. Rating: C-

Indole 3 carbinol: Found in cruciferous vegetables. Works like DIM.
Rating: C-

Chrysin: Good, safe, but poorly absorbed. Absorbtion can be increased with the use of Bioperine or possibly transdermal administartion. "Post Cycle" uses Bioperine. "Dermacrine" uses a topical solution. Both have been shown to be very effective. Rating: B+

Procyanadin/Resveratrol: Two new entires that show a lot of promise in acting as aromatase inhibitors. Best option CyogenX. Rating: B

Calcium D Glucanate: Proven to stop estrogen from forming yet will not lower it to dangerous levels. Also has great potential as a anti cancer agent. "Post Cycle" also contains Calcium D Glucarate. Rating: A

Avenacosides A&B: These do not lower estrogen but they block SHBG which increases free testosterone (similar to Proviron). This not only prevents estrogen from forming but increases the amount of bioavailable testosterone in the bloodstream. Good for natural athletes but even better for those using gear to get the most out of it. Best choice. "Unleashed" (Of course) Rating: A


Pro-hormones. (6-OXO. AIFM, etc). Garbage. The work of amateur chemists. Real doctors laugh at this stuff. Expensive too. 6 OXO claims a 200% increase in testosterone which is insulting to the intellegence of the serious bodybuilding community. AIFM uses a mild diuretic which gives the user the belief that he lost "estro bloat." Ironically, this is the opposite of "Androsteine", created by the same hucksters, which increased estrogen causing water retention. This in trun made the users think they were gaining size! The people who make this stuff should be in jail. Oh, wait a minute...they are.

Recommendations

Always use the lowest amount of any drug to get the maximum effect.

Always add a natural substance to safely improve the effects of the drug regime.

For natties in-between cycles; "Post Cycle" along with "CytogenX" or "Dermacrine" are more than enough to keep excess estrogen at bay.

For those on HRT: 1/4 mg of a-dex 3X's a week plus low dose CytogenX, Dermacrine or Post Cycle.

For those on a cycle; Arimidex or Aromasan, whichever you feel works best for you. 1/2mg of a-dex a day is usually enough even for heavy cycles. The addition of "Unleashed" and "CytogenX" is recommended during the cycle and "Unleashed" and "Post Cycle" is recommended afterward.


There you have it. Some may disagree with a point here and there but that's basically the long and short of it. If more people understood these simple principles they'd be a lot less problems and misunderstandings about estrogen, preventing problems while on, and proper PCT.

Hope it helps.

Proviron is not liver toxic, and a-dex is too weak in most cases to do any good. Nolvadex definitely serves its purpose if estrogen build-up has already occured. It sounds like you're lumping each drug and its effects into one generalized category to compare them to eachother. This does not justify how each compound CAN and WILL be effective depending on the circumstances.

 

[Pikaberdot]

Way too much misinformation. Also extremely biased. Estrogen 101 gets an "F".

 

[Nelson Montana]

As always, when someone disagrees, either because they've been misinformed and don't want to actually deal with the truth, or the post wasn't what they wanted to hear, they attack the message by making assumptions. They argue minutea. They act tough. Easy to do when you're hiding behind a computer.

Okay, jamesG, you're up. YOU provide studies for each statement you made, and then clarify why you think the conclusions are correct. Then I want you to post your credentials, how many years experience you have, where you've been published, who you've spoken to directly in the industry and who endorses your work, who you've coached, what you've accomplished and while you're at it, include your real name and a picture as well. Then we can begin a debate on the issue -- in which case you'll be wrong anyway.

 

[odoyal rulez]

I refuse to believe a word of it based solely on the fact you plugged two products, one of which has been out only a month, and you've never used. Therefore to me your credibility means nothing.

 

[georgie24]

armidex suck's, i still got gyno on it!!!!

aromasin = A+

 

[jamesG]

I criticise your statements, you attack me. Without answering any of the criticisms.
sorry, I wont waste my time with someone like you. If people beleive your nonsense then that is their loss.

I could provide studies for all the above, though anyone can search pubmed and find the same. You made the claims, YOU back them up. I am not an expert, but it seems that even so, I know more than you.

have a nice day, internet tough-guy and keyboard guru.

 

[jamesG]

armidex suck's, i still got gyno on it!!!!

aromasin = A+

same with me.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I refuse to believe a word of it based solely on the fact you plugged two products, one of which has been out only a month, and you've never used. Therefore to me your credibility means nothing.

You're wrong. But before I address that, let me say this.

I hate it when somebody feels the need to attack someone for their opinion. You can take it, leave it, discuss it, debate it. But when you try and make an argument over little bullshit it just reeks of teenage message board jerk off.

Okay, enough of that.

The product that isn't out is by Anthony who one, I trust, and two, I've used the ingredients, and three, I've worked for the company and know they put out the best quality so I'd recommend it. That was the basis for my opinion. Want to use a different brand? Be my guest.

As for Dermacrine, all I said was that it contained chyrsin and the transdermal deliverery is a way to improve the absorbtion. Personally I'm not a big fan of transdermals but I've heard good things about it and gave them a nod. You're going to break my balls about mentioning a good product on which I don't make any money? That's just idiotic.

I don't worry about how my credibility translates to some stranger on a message board. I'm just saying what I've learned from experiences in the real world, just like a lot of the vets on this board.

Meanwhile, others speak from what they've read from posts by guys who live with their mothers.

I'm not saying I have all the answers. No one does. But this is some basic infomation that, if taken, will do a lot of good and avoid a lot of bad. But that's not good enough for some people so they have to throw a tantrum and piss all over it. Ugh.

 

[medical]

You're wrong. But before I address that, let me say this.

I hate it when somebody feels the need to attack someone for their opinion. You can take it, leave it, discuss it, debate it. But when you try and make an argument over little bullshit it just reeks of teenage message board jerk off.

Okay, enough of that.

The product that isn't out is by Anthony who one, I trust, and two, I've used the ingredients, and three, I've worked for the company and know they put out the best quality so I'd recommend it. That was the basis for my opinion. Want to use a different brand? Be my guest.

As for Dermacrine, all I said was that it contained chyrsin and the transdermal deliverery is a way to improve the absorbtion. Personally I'm not a big fan of transdermals but I've heard good things about it and gave them a nod. You're going to break my balls about mentioning a good product on which I don't make any money? That's just idiotic.

I don't worry about how my credibility translates to some stranger on a message board. I'm just saying what I've learned from experiences in the real world, just like a lot of the vets on this board.

Meanwhile, others speak from what they've read from posts by guys who live with their mothers.

I'm not saying I have all the answers. No one does. But this is some basic infomation that, if taken, will do a lot of good and avoid a lot of bad. But that's not good enough for some people so they have to throw a tantrum and piss all over it. Ugh.

I'll agree with one thing here......you don't have all the answers. You appere to have very few of the E answers and don't really even address the proper questions. But that's just my uninformed opinion.

 

[jh1]

NM is a good bro in my book.

 

[jamesG]

Pro-hormones. The people who make this stuff should be in jail. Oh, wait a minute...they are.

.

who exactly are you referring to? because the only person in jail is patrick arnold and that was not for prohormones but for selling THG and DMT which are steroids.

get your facts straight.

 

[jamesG]

you also reccomended dermacrine a product that uses prohormones. DHEA, pregnenolone, 7-keto dhea are all prohormones.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

NM is a good bro in my book.

lol @ your signature...




Dude...

 

[Nelson Montana]

you also reccomended dermacrine a product that uses prohormones. DHEA, pregnenolone, 7-keto dhea are all prohormones.

Dhea and 7keto, true, technically. And I think 7 keto has merit but not cocerning estrogen. Not a big fan of DHEA though. I was refering more to the chemical concoctions that are essentially lousy drugs ala' Patricks original pro-hormone which was rejected by the pharmaceutical companies. Pat changed a molecule, put it in an even less effective oral form and got it under the wire of being a "supplement" and thought he was a genius for doing so. It went about giving a generation of bodybuilders bitch tits. Great invention.


jh1: Your sig MADE MY DAY. Now THAT is something of value.






.

 

[JeremyD]

So, since you're clearly against clomid and nolva (Can't say i'm a fan of clmoid either), what would YOU recommend for the ideal post cycle protocol?

 

[needtogetaas]

You're wrong. But before I address that, let me say this.

I hate it when somebody feels the need to attack someone for their opinion. You can take it, leave it, discuss it, debate it. But when you try and make an argument over little bullshit it just reeks of teenage message board jerk off.

Okay, enough of that.

The product that isn't out is by Anthony who one, I trust, and two, I've used the ingredients, and three, I've worked for the company and know they put out the best quality so I'd recommend it. That was the basis for my opinion. Want to use a different brand? Be my guest.

As for Dermacrine, all I said was that it contained chyrsin and the transdermal deliverery is a way to improve the absorbtion. Personally I'm not a big fan of transdermals but I've heard good things about it and gave them a nod. You're going to break my balls about mentioning a good product on which I don't make any money? That's just idiotic.

I don't worry about how my credibility translates to some stranger on a message board. I'm just saying what I've learned from experiences in the real world, just like a lot of the vets on this board.

Meanwhile, others speak from what they've read from posts by guys who live with their mothers.

I'm not saying I have all the answers. No one does. But this is some basic infomation that, if taken, will do a lot of good and avoid a lot of bad. But that's not good enough for some people so they have to throw a tantrum and piss all over it. Ugh.

good post.

 

[odoyal rulez]

therss no tough guy teenage message board warrior here, Im just stating facts man. Dont get your panties in a bunch. When you came back, a lot of people that people look up to, endorsed and welcomed you. ergo, please dont start plugging shit you havent used, that makes you look bad, them look bad, and the product look bad.

We all know Demacrine is the next big thing, and a lot of us will prolly buy it and make our own findings...but its been out for a month, give it a rest already.

 

[Mac173]

I refuse to believe a word of it based solely on the fact you plugged two products, one of which has been out only a month, and you've never used. Therefore to me your credibility means nothing.

There was way too much of that shit w/ the AF store.
Plug plug plug plug and then plug some more.

 

[g35mann]

I think this is an excellent post and from my small expierience spot on. Now I havnt been on this forum months and i dont even know if macro or Utler even post here anymore but i am glad that an actual guru called BS on AIFM. I bought in to the whole AIFM thing becuase everyone was brainwashed by it. Bought 2 bottles and now there somewhere in my closet along with some of the other garbage i bought from anafit. AIFM IS COMPLETE GARBAGE along with nova... Sorry just had to vent. Its great to have a real guru on the forums.

 

[Nelson Montana]

therss no tough guy teenage message board warrior here, Im just stating facts man. Dont get your panties in a bunch. When you came back, a lot of people that people look up to, endorsed and welcomed you. ergo, please dont start plugging shit you havent used, that makes you look bad, them look bad, and the product look bad.

We all know Demacrine is the next big thing, and a lot of us will prolly buy it and make our own findings...but its been out for a month, give it a rest already.

A dumb post. I've mentioned Dermacrine only once, and again, I have no affilation with them. What part of that don't you understand?

I personally don't think it's right to answer a post with a flat out endorsement. I don't do that. Some do. I don't. This was a post with info on using anti-e's that a lot of people could use and I included natural supps because I believe in them.

And by the way, Protein Factory could just as easily sell a ton of crap that people will buy but I will not endorse anything that I don't believe is good.

Got it?

 

[odoyal rulez]

Look man, im not going to get into a pissing match...but I want you to look at what you wrote:

For natties in-between cycles; "Post Cycle" along with "CytogenX" or "Dermacrine" are more than enough to keep excess estrogen at bay.

For those on HRT: 1/4 mg of a-dex 3X's a week plus low dose CytogenX, Dermacrine or Post Cycle.

You WROTE THAT. You have NO IDEA whatsoever if its "more than enough" to keep estrogen at bay in between cycles, since its only BEEN OUT a month. And you have NEVER PERSONALLLY used it. I am NOT disagreeing with ANYTHING you said, but I am telling you that you make yourself look like an ass, and the people who support you, when you start PLUGGING products you havent used.

Ive given you Karma this week on other things, because you have good ideas and posts, but this was not one of them.

 

[rg78]

..JUST PROVIDING THE FACTS. I DON'T MAKE A DIME FROM SOME OF PRODUCTS MENTIONED.

are you going to tell us who's paying you?

 

[nisser512]

i agree with odoyal rulez and there's not much you can say to make it better Nelson other than retracting that entire paragraph.

 

[tin2]

a-dex was crap for me and also has a rebound effect like nolva ..

 

[chazk]

cant expect a person to stand in wal mart in a walmart tshirt and tell you to go shop and target.... it just is not gonna happen...

but I to question the effects of transdermal studies done with chrysin do they exist?
I read recently that chyrsin was garbage compared to arimidex and aromasin..

what dose of chrysin is needed transdermal to make a effect?
how much does decramine contian?

 

[chazk]

is this really nelson montana?

do I have to pull off the scoobie doo mask to real another face?

 

[Mrpumped]

I criticise your statements, you attack me. Without answering any of the criticisms.
sorry, I wont waste my time with someone like you. If people beleive your nonsense then that is their loss.

I could provide studies for all the above, though anyone can search pubmed and find the same. You made the claims, YOU back them up. I am not an expert, but it seems that even so, I know more than you.

have a nice day, internet tough-guy and keyboard guru.

I totally agree with you. People will say what ever they want and pass it out as expert advice. Who ever listens to shit like that better get ready for some shitty as results. Then they can't say they weren't forwarned.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Look man, im not going to get into a pissing match...but I want you to look at what you wrote:

For natties in-between cycles; "Post Cycle" along with "CytogenX" or "Dermacrine" are more than enough to keep excess estrogen at bay.

For those on HRT: 1/4 mg of a-dex 3X's a week plus low dose CytogenX, Dermacrine or Post Cycle.

You WROTE THAT. You have NO IDEA whatsoever if its "more than enough" to keep estrogen at bay in between cycles, since its only BEEN OUT a month.
...............................................................

I'M GOING TO EXPLAIN THIS ONE MORE TIME. IF THEN YOU DON'T GET IT, YOU'RE JUST DENSE. I BELIEVE THAT "POST-CYCLE" IS ENOUGH TO KEEP ESTRO AT BAY. I WAS THROWING PROPS TO ANTHONY'S PRODUCT IN CASE YOU WANTED TO MIX THE TWO -- YES, IT WOULD BE MORE THAN ENOUGH.

ACTUALLY DERMACRINE WOULD BE REDUNDANT (MORE THAN ENOUGH) IN REGARD TO THE CHRYSIN SO THE CYTO MIGHT BE THE BETTER CHOICE. BUT YOU'RE TWISTING IT ALL DUDE. YOU'RE BUSTING FOR PROMOTING SOMETHING THAT HAS SOME GOOD INGREDIENTS AND HAS GOTTEN GOOD FEEDBACK AND I DON'T MAKE ANY MONEY OFF OF. THAT'S IDIOTIC. THE POINT IS, NATURAL SUPPS CAN WORK. BUT I FEEL 6 -OXO AND AIFM IS GARBAGE AND I STAND BY THAT STATEMENT.


.............................................................




Ive given you Karma this week on other things, because you have good ideas and posts, but this was not one of them.

...........................................

GEEZ, SORRY DUDE. SO YOU GIVE ME RED BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH ONE POST ?

AND BY THE WAY, I CHECKED MY KARMA AND YOU HAVEN'T GIVEN ME ANY GREEN, SO... WTF?

..

 

[lartinos]

Even though I disagree with Nelson too, his iconoclastic ideas often have SOME but not alot of truth. I like how he stirs this up a little.

 

[medrep]

is this really nelson montana?

do I have to pull off the scoobie doo mask to real another face?

exactly. everyone who used to give advise here was asked to leave. then magically all these old "gurus" come back? Anyone with admin powers here can make up a username give it 2500 posts and 2million karma and say "hey we have new gurus now". This place has become a joke

 

[lartinos]

aifm is not garbage BTW Nelson, I happen to love that stuff. At a certain point Nelsons threads should probably be locked, not that I dislike him but I just don't like when the pissing matches start. Natural supps can work IMO, but they shouldn't be the basis of your PCT.

 

[odoyal rulez]

wow man you're right, i gave the Karma to Co-B man for bumping your old biceps thread. My apologies.

No matter what you post after this...you are still wrong. Anyone reading this will see my point and realize the same thing, so do yourself a favor and edit your original post.

 

[chimera83]

It seems to me that this board once supported and recommend all products from the AF store, but now things like AIMF are said to be garbage. All of a sudden there is a new company with a new line of products which are being pushed. What happens next, will we be told that other sponsers such as AG guys are crap too. Im not saying that the new products dont work (I have not tried them) but they have only been around for a short time, while AIMF was around for a long time, and what happens when this board changes sponser in a few years, will they also bash the products which they are now recommending?

 

[bigrand]

LOL, your supplement line better than pharmacutical AIs.........give me a break. Bet you have zero studies on those supps.

 

[Nelson Montana]

And so it begins. The small minds come out. As soon as they hear something that makes them think a little they start yelling "Lock the thread! Ban him! " As soon as one twirp gets away with it, the rest of the twirps join in.

Grow the f*ck up. Have some fun. Geezuzfuckingchrist.


First of all, anyone who knows my style would know it ain't easy to copy. And why would EF use my name without my aknowledgement? Damn, you guys are paranoid.

Listen up.

When I was here I got ganged on by some mods who abused their authority. Anyone remeber Fonz? He was a self proclaimed genius. Where is he now? Nowhere. Because he's a nobody. But damn, a lot of people hung on his every word.

Remember Juice Authority? He harrassed me constantly. Beratted me for my views on Clomid then went crying to the board when it didn't work for him. Took 2000mgs a week a looked like he didn't work out. He was a message board god. Where's he? Nowhere. He never was -- only here.

Macro and to a lesser degree Ulter had some knowledge and were given a lot of leeway, but they abused it. They thought they owned the boards and found out the hard way that wasn't the case. They hyped their crappy supps endlessly because they could get away with it. Let's face it, the board needs advertising dollars to survive. Everyone who doesn't live in their mothers basement know that. But enough was enough.

I agreed to come back if it was an even playing field and now it is. There's some stuff sold here that I don't think is great, but maybe someone else does. Ulter and macro just bashed the competition. Greedy dicks.

Guys like Anthony Roberts make macro and ulter look like beginners.

When did Ulter post an exercise routine that helped the members? Or recommend something that didn't make him money?

If macro was so smart how come he's never been published?

They did however go into other peoples posts and re-write them. Unethical. Unacceptable. They had to go.

This board has some great people. But there are a few fools who don't recognize a good thing when they see it. Listen and learn from the vets -- the real ones.


It's good to be back.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

exactly. everyone who used to give advise here was asked to leave. then magically all these old "gurus" come back? Anyone with admin powers here can make up a username give it 2500 posts and 2million karma and say "hey we have new gurus now". This place has become a joke

Who are the "old gurus" that came back?? As far as I can tell Nelson is the only person who has "come back" ...

If this place has become a joke then by all means go find another forum that suits you better! nobody is forcing to post here.



.

 

[Max102]

I left this board for a few months because I couldn't take anymore of Ulter and Macro. Every morning there was 3 or 4 old posts bumped by Macro that were 3 or more years old and nobody complained. When I posted my results I had with YES (which is total garbage and a waste of money) and AIFM which all it did was me is give blisters that lasted for 3 months I get pm's from them asking what my problem is with them. I just couldn't believe how many people fell into there marketing crap. You couldn't say one thing bad about them on here or you would get bombed it was pathetic. As for Ulter and his 1000mg a week of test for your first cycle is just insane to even suggest such a dose..but people were backing him..umbelievable!!!! I just hope the sponsors now dont do what Ulter and Macro did on here because it will just kill this board again...The reason I'm red is because I disagreed with with Macro.

 

[odoyal rulez]

Ulter usually backed 500mg a week for first cycle...what post did he say a gram?

 

[average_ash]

odoyal rulez Ulter usually backed 500mg a week for first cycle...what post did he say a gram? (quote)
I dont post too much because i dont really know too much! but i read alot, and a few times ive seen Ulter post that a begginer should take 1 gram of test to get the most out of his virgin cycle.

 

[OMEGA]

Elite IS the best because its a market place of ideas, products and people.

have disagreed with many vested interest here before but its always civil.

As far as I am concerned it is great to have disagreement because it creates interest generation and more thought.

Just Yesterday there was disagreement on something as religious as AM cardio and days before on Glutamine , yet even at the end NO ONE insulted each other and the respect level increases and those who believe in any of the arguments espoused by certain camps are serviced by the diversity.


it feels as if THERE IS MORE DIVERSITY NOW on Elite

IF I had one thing to offer as a modest person let us NOT say anything bad about anyone, even those that may have erred.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

I think this is an excellent post and from my small expierience spot on. Now I havnt been on this forum months and i dont even know if macro or Utler even post here anymore but i am glad that an actual guru called BS on AIFM. I bought in to the whole AIFM thing becuase everyone was brainwashed by it. Bought 2 bottles and now there somewhere in my closet along with some of the other garbage i bought from anafit. AIFM IS COMPLETE GARBAGE along with nova... Sorry just had to vent. Its great to have a real guru on the forums.

I think I was the first to Call B.S. on AIFM, for the record.

I did so in my Blog initially, and then SteroidSuperBoard had the balls and the integrity to run with it in their newsletter, and then it was widely circulated...

I'm not a guru, but I will claim that I was the first to call B.S. on AIFM...unfortunately my original posts concerning that product were deleted and edited by somone who is no longer here.

 

[Pikaberdot]

Macro and to a lesser degree Ulter had some knowledge and were given a lot of leeway, but they abused it. They thought they owned the boards and found out the hard way that wasn't the case. They hyped their crappy supps endlessly because they could get away with it. Let's face it, the board needs advertising dollars to survive. Everyone who doesn't live in their mothers basement know that. But enough was enough.

You're doing the exact same thing, hyping your "crappy supps" endlessly because now YOU can get away with it.

I agreed to come back if it was an even playing field and now it is. There's some stuff sold here that I don't think is great, but maybe someone else does. Ulter and macro just bashed the competition. Greedy dicks.

All you've done is bash them. The hypocrisy is astounding.

Guys like Anthony Roberts make macro and ulter look like beginners.

Because Seton Hall is one of the top universities in the nation right?
I guess it's easy to make someone look like a beginner when you are a self-proclaimed expert on anything though.

If macro was so smart how come he's never been published?

Plenty of morons have had their material published. Doesn't make them any more intelligent than those who have not.

 

[AAP]

Not to interupt the dialouge here, but just wanted to point out that the Nelson posting here is the same Nelson from the past. It is really him, for better or worse depending on your view or opinion. No one is pretending to be him.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Because Seton Hall is one of the top universities in the nation right?
I guess it's easy to make someone look like a beginner when you are a self-proclaimed expert on anything though.

Plenty of morons have had their material published. Doesn't make them any more intelligent than those who have not.

Too bad nobody from AnaFit (who you are defending) have had anything published.

Nelson is published, I'm published...and ....although they are red-fucking-hot experts on everything under the sun, nobody from AnaFit has ever been published at anything. Alright...sounds reasonable...

As for being intellegent, by definition , I'm in the top 2% of the world, as I'm a MENSA member (#10002233).

And before people say "I could have gotten in " or "I have a 1,000,000 IQ", or whatever....don't bother unless you're going to post your real name and a way to verify it (like I did, I.E. my Mensa ID #).

Frankly, on the internet (and elitefitness is the worst offender since fonz), everyone "could" be in Mensa, if they weren't too busy being professional athletes, and Ninja/Pirates, and Millionaire doctor/lawyers, etc...with 100" cocks who are SpecOps members and porn stars.

Just look at what Scotty F. and Larry B. did...they became Supplement experts (that's Macro's fat-ass and Ulter, if you didn't know their real names.)....

 

[lartinos]

People please don't believe that aifm is garbage. Is it as strong as letro? No
It might not even work as well as aromasin for you, but it is not garbage or bullshit that's taking it way to far. It is mosdef better than arimidex or chrysin from my experience. Isn't chrysin liver toxic anyway besides being weak ?

 

[Anthony Roberts]

People please don't believe that aifm is garbage. Is it as strong as letro? No
It might not even work as well as aromasin for you, but it is not garbage or bullshit that's taking it way to far. It is mosdef better than arimidex or chrysin from my experience. Isn't chrysin liver toxic anyway besides being weak ?

Believe that it's got a diuretic in it, so people "think" it is reducing bloat but it's not. It's not a strong anti-e, and it's not passed through the liver, so it's nowhere as good as most AI's.

Look at the feedback on AIFM.

It "kept me so dry", etc....

Yeah. It's got a diuretic in it. The people who formulated it put a diuretic in it to dry people out, to convince them that they are losing bloat from less estrogen. Wake up. It "looked" like it worked...but didn't.

 

[Nelson Montana]

You're doing the exact same thing, hyping your "crappy supps" endlessly because now YOU can get away with it.
.................................................................

WRONG.

I INCLUDED SOME INFORMATION ON HOW TO USE NATURAL SUPPS (SOME OF WHICH I'M NOT ASSOSIATED WITH) ALONG WITH INFORMATION THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH SUPPS. THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT FROM BUMPING THREADS THAT JUST PRAISE A COMPANIES PRODUCT. SURE, I'M GOING TO SUGGEST MY STUFF, NOT BECAUSE I SELL THEM, BUT BECAUSE I DESIGNED THEM. AND I DESIGNED THEM TO BE THE BEST. I'M PROUD OF THAT. MEANWHILE SOME GUYS DON'T EVEN KNOW THE INGREDIENTS IN WHAT THEY SELL. THE FORMULA FOR "UNLEASHED" HAS BEEN COPIED SEVERAL TIMES OVER. YOU NEED TO LEARN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INFORMATION AND BLATANT PROMOTION.


..................................................................



All you've done is bash them. The hypocrisy is astounding.


...........................................................

WRONG.

I'M BASHING THEIR ETHICS. I NEVER ABUSED MY AUTHORITY. I NEVER RE-WROTE, EDITED OR CENSORED SOMEONE ELSES POST. WHEN WE WORKED TOGTEHER I NEVER PUT DOWN THEIR PRODUCTS. WELL, WE NO LONGER WORK TOGETHER AND I CAN SAY WITH ALL CONVICTION, A LOT OF THEIR STUFF SUCKED . AND WHAT WAS DECENT WAS OVERPRICED.


..........................................................................................



Because Seton Hall is one of the top universities in the nation right?
I guess it's easy to make someone look like a beginner when you are a self-proclaimed expert on anything though.



..........................................................................

WRONG.

THE WAY I SEE IT, PEOPLE WHO DON'T USE THEIR REAL NAME AND JUST POST ON BOARDS AND PUT PEOPLE DOWN WHO DON'T AGREE WITH THEM ARE THE SELF PROCLAIMED EXPERTS. ANTHONY HAS ACTUALLY DONE THINGS.


.....................................................................



Plenty of morons have had their material published. Doesn't make them any more intelligent than those who have not.

............................................................................

TRUE.

BUT IN THIS CASE IT'S WRONG. HE'S NEVER BEEN PUBLISHED BECAUSE HE ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH. HE HAS NO CRED -- JUST HERE.

AGAIN, DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND TRY TO REALIZE WHO IS WORTH LISTENING TO. THERE ARE A LOT OF GUYS HERE WITH THINGS TO SAY. YOU CAN DISAGREE, BUT ONCE YOU START ATTACKING SOMEONE PERSONALLY FOR HAVING AN OPINION WITH WHICH YOU DISAGREE, IT JUST MAKES YOU LOOK FOOLISH.

..

 

[lartinos]

Too bad nobody from AnaFit (who you are defending) have had anything published.

Nelson is published, I'm published...and ....although they are red-fucking-hot experts on everything under the sun, nobody from AnaFit has ever been published at anything. Alright...sounds reasonable...

As for being intellegent, by definition , I'm in the top 2% of the world, as I'm a MENSA member (#10002233).

And before people say "I could have gotten in " or "I have a 1,000,000 IQ", or whatever....don't bother unless you're going to post your real name and a way to verify it (like I did, I.E. my Mensa ID #).

Frankly, on the internet (and elitefitness is the worst offender since fonz), everyone "could" be in Mensa, if they weren't too busy being professional athletes, and Ninja/Pirates, and Millionaire doctor/lawyers, etc...with 100" cocks who are SpecOps members and porn stars.

Just look at what Scotty F. and Larry B. did...they became Supplement experts (that's Macro's fat-ass and Ulter, if you didn't know their real names.)....

I respectfully disagree, it keeps my gyno away.

 

[lartinos]

Chrysin:

Is It An Effective Aromatase Inhibitor?
Ward Dean, MD

A question that Iïve been asked on a number of occasions is: Why doesnt VRP carry Chrysin?

Chrysin is a flavonoid that has been purported especially in the bodybuilding world to be an effective inhibitor of an enzyme known as aromatase. Aromatase is the enzyme that causes the conversion of testosterone into estradiol and androstenedione into estrone. This would have a definite theoretical advantage to bodybuilders especially those who are taking high doses of potent anabolic steroids.

However, if true, it would have significant advantages for many outside the bodybuilding community, as well.

Aromatase levels are known to rise with age.1 This increase often causes a relative imbalance of estrogen and testosterone in men as they grow older. In addition to having a decreased output of testosterone with age , the age-related increase of aromatase causes older men to convert what testosterone they do produce into estrogen. This is not a desirable phenomenon for aging men, and explains part of the interest in finding an effective inhibitor of aromatase.


Thus, its not just an interest in maintaining strength, energy, muscle mass and libido in older men that generates the interest in aromatase inhibition. In addition, bodybuilders, postmenopausal women with estrogen-receptor positive breast cancer, men suffering from Benign Prostatic Hypertrophy (BPH), and older men undergoing testosterone replacement therapy can all benefit from decreased conversion of androstenedione and testosterone to estrogen.

The idea that chrysin might be an effective natural aromatase inhibitor originated by a combination of science and unsubstantiated hype.

Chrysin, Flavonoids and Aromatase Inhibition

Flavones, or flavonoids, are a large group of compounds found throughout the plant kingdom and in many foods. Theyve been used as drugs and food supplements and are reported to have antioxidant, antibacterial, anti-inflammatory and antiviral properties. 2,3

The flavonoid that has created the greatest publicity is chrysin (5,7-dihydroxyflavone). There are a number of in vitro studies which support chrysins aromatase inhibitory activity. In 1984, researchers found that chrysin had significant aromatase-inhibitory activity when tested with placental microsomes.4,5 A flurry of studies followed.6-11

Campbell and Kurzer, in their 1993 study with preadipocytes (a fancy term for young fat cells), found that chrysins anti-estrogen activity was reduced 10-fold (compared with the placental microsome model) presumably, because the chrysin could not effectively enter the cells. Thus, these researchers discovered the the cell membraine was the first barrier to the ability of chrysin to work in an animal system.7 Other in vitro studies with chrysin indicate that intestinal absorption is also poor.12

However, we are unable to determine from the above studies whether these same effects take place in vivo (inside us) or what the proper dosages would be to get an inhibitory effect on aromatase. If we could extrapolate from the in vitro studies, it appears that wed need several grams of chrysin to have any effect at all (if it worked). However, it is not always possible to make direct in vitro (laboratory Petri dish) to in vivo (in the body) applications.

The obvious question regarding chrysins effectiveness is: Can chrysin reduce estrogen in animals and humans? A group of researchers administered chrysin to mice both orally and via injection to see if chrysin effectively reduced serum estrogen levels. They had 10 mice in four groups: one receiving nothing, one took chrysin orally at 5 mg/kg, one received an intraperitoneal injection with the vehicle solution only, and one received chrysin at 5 mg/kg in the vehicle solution via an intraperitoneal injection. After 30 days, blood samples were drawn. Serum estrogen levels were determined by radioimmunoassay. The scientists found that estrogen levels were unchanged in any of the groups.13

Another discouraging finding from this study was that chrysin-treated rats were considerably fatter than the controls. This may be due to chrysins known ability to disrupt thyroid function by blocking the conversion of T4 to T3 (a key step in thyroid hormone metabolism). This is due to chrysins inhibition of the enzyme deiodinase.14

Further evidence of chrysins lack of effectiveness in inhibiting aromatase is found in an article in JAMA several years ago.15 Researchers tested an androstenedione product, fortified with chrysin, to determine if chrysin would prevent estradiol levels from increasing. It didnt.

Another study to evaluate the aromatase-inhibiting ability of chrysin was conducted by scientists at the Institute of Biomedicine in Turku, Finland.16 The scientists administered chrysin to rats at a dose of 50 mg/kg body weight, which is considerably more than is found in human diets or dietary supplements (thats about 3.5 grams, human equivalent). The scientists found that chrysin had no ability to inhibit aromatase in these intact animals, hypothesizing that the lack of in vivo efficacy was due to poor aborption or bioavailablity.

It appears clear that chrysin may be an effective aromatase inhibitor for cells in a Petri dish but not in humans. While there are several very effective (and very expensive) aromatase inhibiting drugs (i.e., Arimidex (anastrozole), Femara (letrozole), and Aromasin (exemestane), for the time being, it appears that there are no effective aromatase-inhibiting natural substances of which I am aware.

What To Do About Excess Estrogen Naturally?
Estrogen (estradiol) is metabolized by the body via one of two pathways. One pathway 16 alpha-hydroxylation is known as the tumor enhancer metabolic pathway. This is the predominant pathway in patients with breast and endometrial cancer, and in those at increased risk for such cancers. 16 alpha-hydroxylation activity precedes clinical evidence of cancer, and is a significant risk factor for estrogen-dependent tumors.17 16-alpha hydroxylation is nearly five times higher in patients with breast cancer than patients who dont have cancer.18

The other pathway is called the tumor suppressor pathway. This process transforms estrogen into 2-hydroxyestrone (20HEI), an antiestrogen. When estrogen takes the 2-hydroxylation pathway, the incidence of cancer decreases. Healthy individuals not at risk for breast or endometrial cancer bypass the 16-alpha route and metabolize estrogen through the 2-hydroxyestrone pathway.

Scientists found that Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C) causes the body to metabolize estrogen via the 2-hydroxylation pathway. By funneling estrogen into this tumor suppressor pathway, I3C stimulates the rate at which the body expels estrogen, essentially vacuuming away the estrogen. These scientists found that 400 mg of I3C given daily resulted in a 50 percent increase of 2-hydroxylation.19,20 I3C (Indole-3-Carbinol) appears to be an effective weapon against breast, cervical and skin cancer, respiratory papillomas and other estrogen-related conditions. An alternative to I3C, with similar effects, is the I3C metabolite, diindolylmethane (BioDIM).

Conclusion
Unfortunately, there does not appear to be any effective natural inhibitor of aromatase. Those who require the specific benefits of aromatase inhibition (for now, at least) must rely on the safe but expensive prescription aromatase inhibitors. Nevertheless, some of the benefits of aromatase inhibition may be gained by enhancing the metabolism and excretion of estrogen by using I3C or BioDIM.

References
1. Cohen, P.G. Aromatase, adiposity, aging and disease. The hypogonadal-metabolic-atherogenic-disease and aging connection. Medical Hypotheses, 2001, 56(6): 702-708.

2. Formica, J.V. and Regelson, W. Review of the biology of Quercetin and related bioflavonoids. Food Chem Toxicol, 1995. 33(12): 1061-1080.

3. Kuhnau, J. The flavonoids. A class of semi-essential food components: their role in human nutrition. World Rev Nutr Diet, 1976. 24: 117-191.

4. Kellis, JT and Vickery, LE: Inhibition of Human Estrogen Synthetase (Aromatase) by Flavones. Science, 1984, 225: 1032-34.

5. Kellis, J.T., Jr., Nesnow, S. and Vickery, L.E. Inhibition of aromatase cytochrome P-450 (estrogen synthetase) by derivatives of alpha-naphthoflavone. Biochem Pharmacol, 1986, 35(17): 2887-2891.

6. Ibrahim, A.R. and Abul-Hajj, Y.J. Aromatase inhibition by flavonoids. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol, 1990. 37(2): 257-260.

7. Campbell, DR and Kurzer, MS: Flavonoid Inhibition of Aromatase Enzyme Activity in Human Preadipocytes. J Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, 1993, 46: 381-388.

8. Wang, C. Lignans and flavonoids inhibit aromatase enzyme in human preadipocytes. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol, 1994, 50(3-4): 205-12.

9. Pelissero, C. Effects of flavonoids on aromatase activity, an in vitro study. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol, 1996, 57(3-4): 215-223.

10. Le Bail, J.C. Aromatase and 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase inhibition by flavonoids, Cancer Letters, 1998, 133: 101-106.

11. Jeong, H.J. Inhibition of aromatase activity by flavonoids. Arch Pharm Res, 1999, 22(3): 309-312.

12. Walle, U.K., A. Galijatovic, and T. Walle, Transport of the flavonoid chrysin and its conjugated metabolites by the human intestinal cell line Caco-2. Biochem Pharmacol, 1999, 58(3): 431-438.

13. Shibayama, J. The Oral Bioavailability and In Vivo Activity of Chrysin in Exercising and Non-Exercising Mice. Submitted for publication.

14. Koehrle, J. Iodothyronine deiodinase is inhibited by plant flavonoids, Prog Clin Biol Res 1986, 213: 359-371

15. King, D.S. Effect of oral androstenedione on serum testosterone and adaptations to resistance training in young men: a randomized controlled trial [see comments]. JAMA, 1999, 281(21): 2020-2028.

16. Saarinen, N., Joshi, S.C., Ahotupa, M., Li, X., et al. No evidence for the invivo activity of armatase-inhibiting flavonoids. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol, 2001, 78 (3): 231-9.

17. Fishman J., Schneider J., Hershcope RJ., Bradlow HL. Increased estrogen 16-alpha-hydroxylase activity in women with breast and endometrial cancer. J Steroid Biochem. 1984; 20(4B): 1077-1081.

18. Osborne MP, Bradlow HL, Wong GY, Telang NT. Upregulation of estradiol C16 alpha-hydroxylation in human breast tissue: a potential biomarker of breast cancer risk. J National Cancer Inst. 1993; 85(23): 1917-1920.

19. Michnoviez JJ, Bradlow HL. Induction of estradiol metabolism by dietary indole-3-carbinol in humans. J Natl Cancer Inst, 1990; 82(11): 947-949.

20. Michnoviez JJ, Bradlow HL. Altered estrogen metabolism and excretion in humans following consumption of indole-3-carbinol. Nutr Cancer, 1991;16 (1): 59-66.

 

[odoyal rulez]

I'm not in mensa.
I'm not published.
I'm not a chemist.

I do use AIFM..it does work. I'm sorry they are not a sponsor anymore and you feel the need to bash their product so you can sell more of yours. Is it the best for everyone, probably not. Nothing works great for everyone...but it worked for me, I will continue to use it, and so will many others....

 

[Nelson Montana]

I'm not in mensa.
I'm not published.
I'm not a chemist.

I do use AIFM..it does work. I'm sorry they are not a sponsor anymore and you feel the need to bash their product so you can sell more of yours. Is it the best for everyone, probably not. Nothing works great for everyone...but it worked for me, I will continue to use it, and so will many others....

With all due respect...how do you know it "worked?"

Because just because you didn't get gyno means nothing. I know a guy who uses 250mgs of sus EOD and no anti e and he doesn't get gyno. He does smoke cigars however. So according to your logic, the cigars are anti estrogenic.

Did you have blood drawn pre and post and it showed lower e? That's the only way.

Incidentally, that's what I did when testing "Unleashed" and I including my own work, which is the best barometer because I know what I'd done. My "free T" increased ( on 3 separate occasions) while using it as did everyone else who was tested. (Though some more than others).

Even if AIFM "works" (and I sincerely doubt it) it isn't as effective as a real drug and it isn't as safe as a natural substance. It just doesn't make sense to use untested, unapproved chemical concoctions. I'm a little old school in that regard. (The body being a temple and all that).

 

[odoyal rulez]

Nope didn't have my E tested. I did begin to get itchy nips..I did increase usage of AIFM..it did go away...maybe I was wearing a t-shirt with too much starch..I don't know, I do know it so outrageously inexpensive, and lasts for such a long time, I feel absolutely no qualms with continuing its usage. You are a platinum member so you can see how skeptical I was of AIFM way "before" I used it.

I will also say that, I DID have my cholesterol levels checked before and after a cycle, using their Sesapure, and using orals in my cycle, after cycle my total cholesterol was a 140...my good cholesterol was 39..low, yes, but not single digits. You can bet I'll keep some of that around too.


As far as this whole thread is concerned, it's gotten way offtopic. If you want to post your experiences with different Anti-E's and SERMS be my guest. But you lost all credibility and respect when you started posting opinions on stuff you've never touched, just copy pasting other peoples expereinces.

In reality I will probably end up trying demacrine, as will many others, but I will wait to see more results. You would do well to stop taking everything as a personal attack, and realize not everyone on this board is a lemming. We will call you out when you post bullshit.

 

[Pikaberdot]

Anthony Roberts gets extra credit for using his "real name"? That's ridiculous. Besides, he isn't Anthony Roberts. He is Anthony Connors. He's not even 30 years old, but he already has more steroid experience than guys who have been juicing since he was a prepubescent boy? Give me a break. Nothing beats experience.

 

[odoyal rulez]

I'm done here really, you are entitled to your opinions, i'll stick to mine, just stay away from my cottage cheese bro. =)

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nope didn't have my E tested. I did begin to get itchy nips..I did increase usage of AIFM..it did go away...maybe I was wearing a t-shirt with too much starch..I don't know, I do know it so outrageously inexpensive, and lasts for such a long time, I feel absolutely no qualms with continuing its usage. You are a platinum member so you can see how skeptical I was of AIFM way "before" I used it.

..............................................................

YEAH, ITCHY NIPS CAN COME FROMA LOT OF THINGS

...............................

I will also say that, I DID have my cholesterol levels checked before and after a cycle, using their Sesapure, and using orals in my cycle, after cycle my total cholesterol was a 140...my good cholesterol was 39..low, yes, but not single digits. You can bet I'll keep some of that around too.

..............................................

A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF BEING MISGUIDED. THERE'S NOTHING IN SESAPURE THAT EVEN CLAIMS TO LOWER CHOLESTEROL, YET YOU THINK IT "WORKED."

..................................................................


As far as this whole thread is concerned, it's gotten way offtopic. If you want to post your experiences with different Anti-E's and SERMS be my guest. But you lost all credibility and respect when you started posting opinions on stuff you've never touched, just copy pasting other peoples expereinces.

............................................

LIGHTEN UP KID. FOR THE TENTH TIME, I WAS REFERRING TO AN INGREDIENT.

..............................................

In reality I will probably end up trying demacrine, as will many others, but I will wait to see more results.

...............................................

DON'T DO ME ANY FAVORS. YOU'D BE BETTER OFF WITH "POST CYCLE" IMO


.......................................................

You would do well to stop taking everything as a personal attack, and realize not everyone on this board is a lemming. We will call you out when you post bullshit.

.................................................

AND I, YOU BRO.

,,

 

[AAP]

Only thing this thread is lacking is Jeff Summers.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Anthony Roberts gets extra credit for using his "real name"? That's ridiculous. Besides, he isn't Anthony Roberts. He is Anthony Connors. He's not even 30 years old, but he already has more steroid experience than guys who have been juicing since he was a prepubescent boy? Give me a break. Nothing beats experience.

I won't speak for Anthony but using a professional name is not the same as hiding behind a screen name. I don't use my real last name because there are a lot of crazy motherfugkers out there and I wouln't want them contacting me or my family. But both Anthony and I can be contacted by anyone who's anyone in the business. They know us. They don't know ulter.

True, nothing beats experience, which is why I think it's a joke when BB.com's residant guru is a kid who's never used gear.

Anthony has quite a bit of experience. I've been at this longer than I care to admit. And there are a lot of guys with experience who aren't too bright. So it isn't cut and dry.

 

[The_Chemist]

Only thing this thread is lacking is Jeff Summers.

im a little out of the loop. who is Jeff summers.

 

[gabulldogs02]

The Author of steroids 101

im a little out of the loop. who is Jeff summers.

 

[Snarling Force]

Very interesting post its made me question so many things now. So all these bottles of AIFM I have are pure shit? Did I get taken? What should I do with them?

 

[The_Chemist]

Too bad nobody from AnaFit (who you are defending) have had anything published.

Nelson is published, I'm published...and ....although they are red-fucking-hot experts on everything under the sun, nobody from AnaFit has ever been published at anything. Alright...sounds reasonable...

As for being intellegent, by definition , I'm in the top 2% of the world, as I'm a MENSA member (#10002233).

And before people say "I could have gotten in " or "I have a 1,000,000 IQ", or whatever....don't bother unless you're going to post your real name and a way to verify it (like I did, I.E. my Mensa ID #).

Frankly, on the internet (and elitefitness is the worst offender since fonz), everyone "could" be in Mensa, if they weren't too busy being professional athletes, and Ninja/Pirates, and Millionaire doctor/lawyers, etc...with 100" cocks who are SpecOps members and porn stars.

Just look at what Scotty F. and Larry B. did...they became Supplement experts (that's Macro's fat-ass and Ulter, if you didn't know their real names.)....

Even though Macro and Ulter often provided me with inteligent and usefull advice, they never once posted a pic of themselves. I am personally a believer in keeping my identity on the downlow as well, but then again, Im not selling products on public boards. Not a bash even slightly, just a thought.

I think nelson has posted pics before, but then again he also had ab sulpting done by Dr. Bruce nadler in NY. Id be interested to see a side by side comparisson of Anthony roberts, Nelson, Ulter and Macro. Again, not that this would solve anything or make one guy smarter than the other..... It would just be interesting to see.

Does anyone have archived pics of AR, Nelson, Macro, Ulter????

 

[OMEGA]

IF I had one thing to offer as a modest person let us NOT say anything bad about anyone, even those that may have erred. Let us have hope not anger. Let go .

my last post on this thread

 

[Mac173]

Even though Macro and Ulter often provided me with inteligent and usefull advice, they never once posted a pic of themselves. I am personally a believer in keeping my identity on the downlow as well, but then again, Im not selling products on public boards. Not a bash even slightly, just a thought.

I think nelson has posted pics before, but then again he also had ab sulpting done by Dr. Bruce nadler in NY. Id be interested to see a side by side comparisson of Anthony roberts, Nelson, Ulter and Macro. Again, not that this would solve anything or make one guy smarter than the other..... It would just be interesting to see.

Does anyone have archived pics of AR, Nelson, Macro, Ulter????

Ulter posted an upper body pic once including face. I've seen a pick of AR somewhere around but never of the other two.

 

[lartinos]

Very interesting post its made me question so many things now. So all these bottles of AIFM I have are pure shit? Did I get taken? What should I do with them?

send them to me, I'll pay less you paid so its worth my while though.

 

[lartinos]

nelsons pic has been up, he's was always in good shape for an older guy as is ulter. Its sad that this conversation has gotten to the point where we're asking people to post pics. It is a officially a pissing match.

 

[odoyal rulez]

ok, Nelson, once again you speak without any research.

SesaPure
Sesapure is the highest purity extract of Sesame lignans available. The high levels of two chemicals (known as : Sesamin and Episesamin) powerfully activate and improve the metabolism of fat and sugar (called PPAR-alpha agonism). Research indicates these 2 chemicals:

• Speed up Fat loss
• Reduce Fat gain even when eating extra calories. If you are bulking or just plain overeating, it can mean more muscle and less fat.
• Improve insulin sensitivity and better sugar metabolism
• Increase mitochondrial activity inside your cells, and therefore provide more energy production
• Protect the liver
• Decrease triglycerides
• Provides anti-inflammatory actions, protecting the brain, blood vessels and body from damaging inflammation
• Lower LDL (bad) cholesterol
• Raise HDL (good) cholesterol
• Increase vitamin E levels. Studies indicate that vitamin E not only protects the body from oxidation that can cause premature aging, but
also can elevate and/or restore testosterone levels


Sesapure will help you get or stay lean while providing significant health benefits.


Those are its claims...ive had bloodwork to prove it works on cholesterol...anyone who wants to send me a stamp can have a copy of the results. And as far as talking about just ingredients...then you should have mentioned just the ingredient and not the name of the product.

If I was PP, i'd be all over you for this thread.

 

[Nelson Montana]

ok, Nelson, once again you speak without any research.

SesaPure
Sesapure is the highest purity extract of Sesame lignans available. The high levels of two chemicals (known as : Sesamin and Episesamin) powerfully activate and improve the metabolism of fat and sugar (called PPAR-alpha agonism). Research indicates these 2 chemicals:

• Speed up Fat loss
• Reduce Fat gain even when eating extra calories. If you are bulking or just plain overeating, it can mean more muscle and less fat.
• Improve insulin sensitivity and better sugar metabolism
• Increase mitochondrial activity inside your cells, and therefore provide more energy production
• Protect the liver
• Decrease triglycerides
• Provides anti-inflammatory actions, protecting the brain, blood vessels and body from damaging inflammation
• Lower LDL (bad) cholesterol
• Raise HDL (good) cholesterol
• Increase vitamin E levels. Studies indicate that vitamin E not only protects the body from oxidation that can cause premature aging, but
also can elevate and/or restore testosterone levels


Sesapure will help you get or stay lean while providing significant health benefits.


Those are its claims...ive had bloodwork to prove it works on cholesterol...anyone who wants to send me a stamp can have a copy of the results. And as far as talking about just ingredients...then you should have mentioned just the ingredient and not the name of the product.

If I was PP, i'd be all over you for this thread.

Dude, you're so off base. There are no ingredients in sesapure that would lower cholesterol. I read the ingredients. Forgive for missing the bullshite claim that came later in the ad.

The funny thing is, I think those ingredients have merit and have recommend them. And I don't sell anything like it. So there. BUT THEY DO NOT REDUCE CHOLESTEROL. Rent a clue.

As for pics, yeah, they don't mean much. Ulter is an admitted havy juicer. How hard is it be big on a constant 2 grams a week?

The picture on the front page of my site at the NPC show was PRE-ab surgery. BTW: My "contest stack" was 200mgs of deca and 25 mgs of D-bol for one month prior to the show.

www.nelsonmontana.com


Honestly, I had such low BF the lipo didn't do much.

The black and white photo in the gallery is PRE-any steroid use at age 40. Two years prior I weighed 150 pounds.

The last photo on that page was "not on" as well.

Again, it's not about how good someone looks compared to someone else. I just think one should practice what he preaches. Some guys do, some guys don't.

 

[odoyal rulez]

Ok look, i've been nice..but you sir are a fucking moron. Anyone that believes anything you type I feel sorry for. Here is proof the Sesapure works on cholesterol. Since it is made of sesame lignans here are some studies regarding sesame and its effects on cholesterol.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2005/feb2005_cover_sesame_02.htm

In 1995, researchers at the University of Shizuoka, Japan, found that sesaminol, the most prevalent sesame lignan, effectively inhibited LDL oxidation, outperforming other well-established biological antioxidants, including quercetin, epigallocatechin-3 gallate (EGCG), theaflavin, BHT, and alpha tocopherol. In fact, the lag time to oxidation—the determining factor in antioxidant potency—was greatly increased.22

The lignan sesaminol is thus a strong antioxidant with powerful antioxidant effects.

Sesame lignans have been shown to improve lipid profiles in both humans and experimental animals. Unfavorable lipid profiles are a significant risk factor for cardiovascular disease. In one study, re-searchers examined the effects of sesamin on cholesterol metabolism in rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9072406&dopt=Abstract

PUB MED FYI

In the liver, both sesamin and episesamin significantly suppressed cholesterol accumulation

http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...99a.pdf&code=8e966a5ba5cac297cc1b3917051f9ad5

here's another

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=84

and another...

Where is YOU'RE research that shows Sesame doesn't help cholesterol? Where is you're research on ANYTHING you've said....

 

[MR Pink]

With all due respect...how do you know it "worked?"

Because just because you didn't get gyno means nothing. I know a guy who uses 250mgs of sus EOD and no anti e and he doesn't get gyno. He does smoke cigars however. So according to your logic, the cigars are anti estrogenic.

Did you have blood drawn pre and post and it showed lower e? That's the only way.

Incidentally, that's what I did when testing "Unleashed" and I including my own work, which is the best barometer because I know what I'd done. My "free T" increased ( on 3 separate occasions) while using it as did everyone else who was tested. (Though some more than others).

Even if AIFM "works" (and I sincerely doubt it) it isn't as effective as a real drug and it isn't as safe as a natural substance. It just doesn't make sense to use untested, unapproved chemical concoctions. I'm a little old school in that regard. (The body being a temple and all that).

That doens't make any sense ... you tell people stuff works out of your own experience but Odoyal can't.... maybe the coffee you drink every day is anti estrogenic?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Ok look, i've been nice..but you sir are a fucking moron. Anyone that believes anything you type I feel sorry for. Here is proof the Sesapure works on cholesterol. Since it is made of sesame lignans here are some studies regarding sesame and its effects on cholesterol.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2005/feb2005_cover_sesame_02.htm

In 1995, researchers at the University of Shizuoka, Japan, found that sesaminol, the most prevalent sesame lignan, effectively inhibited LDL oxidation, outperforming other well-established biological antioxidants, including quercetin, epigallocatechin-3 gallate (EGCG), theaflavin, BHT, and alpha tocopherol. In fact, the lag time to oxidation—the determining factor in antioxidant potency—was greatly increased.22

The lignan sesaminol is thus a strong antioxidant with powerful antioxidant effects.

Sesame lignans have been shown to improve lipid profiles in both humans and experimental animals. Unfavorable lipid profiles are a significant risk factor for cardiovascular disease. In one study, re-searchers examined the effects of sesamin on cholesterol metabolism in rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9072406&dopt=Abstract

PUB MED FYI

In the liver, both sesamin and episesamin significantly suppressed cholesterol accumulation

http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...99a.pdf&code=8e966a5ba5cac297cc1b3917051f9ad5

here's another

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=84

and another...

Where is YOU'RE research that shows Sesame doesn't help cholesterol? Where is you're research on ANYTHING you've said....

I am SO glad you brought this up!

Yes, I was reading the ingredients and then when they used the brand name they mentioned the lignans so I missed it.

HOWEVER...

Had I known this in the first place I would have made a point of it. LIGNANS LOWER DHT!!! That, is why it may lower cholesterol, by lowering testosterone. Congratulations. And ironically, it may increase estrogen as well. (So I guess you'll be needing some AIFM)

Here's one of those research source you revere so much.

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache...er+dht&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us&client=safari




Now don't you feel like a douchebag?












..................................................

 

[Nelson Montana]

That doens't make any sense ... you tell people stuff works out of your own experience but Odoyal can't.... maybe the coffee you drink every day is anti estrogenic?

My experience included blood work dude.

 

[chazk]

Even though Macro and Ulter often provided me with inteligent and usefull advice, they never once posted a pic of themselves.would just be interesting to see.

Does anyone have archived pics of AR, Nelson, Macro, Ulter????

ulter did post a pic once and that was the only time... I ripped on him hard for being on gram of drugs a week and being a skinny nerd.. he got upset and edited out my post and then locked the thread I posted it in...

He looked like just every other scrawny googly eyed fag that hangs in the corner and watches everyone else lift weights....i'll see if the pic is in my recyc bin if it is i'll pull it out.

 

[MR Pink]

My experience included blood work dude.

mine did too ...I used AIFM last year throughout my cycle and pct and I recovered better than with clomid/hcg alone ...kept almost everything I gained .... my test levels came back fine after my pct was over.

The only thing I changed was using AIFM and it was my first run of tren which is one of the more suppressive AS.

 

[Triple J]

product bashing / product pimping - different sides of the same coin

keep the talk at the level of what value lies in specific ingrediants / herbs/ chemicals / modes of action, etc. then you come off much more credible

 

[odoyal rulez]

OMFG did you even read what you posted...lol nothing I can do or say makes you look as bad as what YOU say..here is some exerpts from what YOU posted as your research.

Lignans act as phytoestrogens. When they are ingested, the body transforms them into a form that keeps hormones from over-stimulating cells, a process that helps support healthy cell growth

Lignans also interfere with enzymes that can promote cancer development and therefore may be helpful in the treatment of cancer

Populations that eat lignan-rich diets have lower breast cancer rates

Lignans are antioxidants, substances that can keep harmful free radicals from ping-ponging through tissues; scientists think that’s why flax lignans have shown an ability to lower cholesterol and act in cancer prevention

DHT, the form of testosterone that can harm the prostate, attacks hair follicles and spurs excess oil production in the skin, increasing the chances of pimple formation. Flax lignans interfere with DHT production...

OMG OMG...do you mean that by taking sesapure I can reduce hairloss, excess oil, and decrease acne...Jesus Nelson..i wouldnt want that!


Now whose the douchebag...get the fuck off this board...

 

[bikercoz]

Nelson,

By you coming out and saying AIFM is pure garbage simply proves your lack of credibility and desire to sell your products over a competitors.

Sales rules 101,, don't bash the competiton, makes you look REAL bad.

 

[Nelson Montana]

OMFG did you even read what you posted...lol nothing I can do or say makes you look as bad as what YOU say..here is some exerpts from what YOU posted as your research.

Lignans act as phytoestrogens. When they are ingested, the body transforms them into a form that keeps hormones from over-stimulating cells, a process that helps support healthy cell growth

Lignans also interfere with enzymes that can promote cancer development and therefore may be helpful in the treatment of cancer

Populations that eat lignan-rich diets have lower breast cancer rates

Lignans are antioxidants, substances that can keep harmful free radicals from ping-ponging through tissues; scientists think that’s why flax lignans have shown an ability to lower cholesterol and act in cancer prevention

DHT, the form of testosterone that can harm the prostate, attacks hair follicles and spurs excess oil production in the skin, increasing the chances of pimple formation. Flax lignans interfere with DHT production...

OMG OMG...do you mean that by taking sesapure I can reduce hairloss, excess oil, and decrease acne...Jesus Nelson..i wouldnt want that!


Now whose the douchebag...get the fuck off this board...

Yeah, okay kid. Whatever.


Would love to see the pic of ulter. I know macro's pretty big but have no idea what shape he's in. And of course, none of this is from expertise or supps, it's from juice.

I'd be happy to post (if I knew how...help!) my natural pic with the baseball cap on my site at age 41 against anyones -- not that I'm all that amazing. I'm not. Never calimed to be a mass monster. But I do believe getting results naturally says a lot more than just filling the syringe to the top and shooting away.

As for my expertise on steroids, well, I've kept my gains, and have the phone numbers of the top people in the field as well as many pros. So take it for what it's worth.


As a matter of fact...COMING SOON...An interview I did with Craig Titus a few years back. VERY interesting.

 

[odoyal rulez]

Also stuck your dick in cottage cheese....brag about that.

 

[AAP]

im a little out of the loop. who is Jeff summers.

The original self proclaimed AAS guru expert who knew everything about roids but looked like shit.

 

[ole farte']

I've been looking at new and used trucks the past 2 weeks, dealing and listening to pushy car salesmen. I hate it. Now i'm starting to get the same feeling when i come to the aas board. I used to love coming here. This is sad, what in the hell has happened to this place?

 

[KrackerJam]

 

[Nelson Montana]

I've been looking at new and used trucks the past 2 weeks, dealing and listening to pushy car salesmen. I hate it. Now i'm starting to get the same feeling when i come to the aas board. I used to love coming here. This is sad, what in the hell has happened to this place?

Can't blame for that that bro. I haven't seen your response to my ab exercise -- or the bicep routine -- or the calve workout.

Why don't you do a couple of sets of those and then chime in instead of squawking about how bad things are.

 

[ole farte']

Can't blame for that that bro. I haven't seen your response to my ab exercise -- or the bicep routine -- or the calve workout.

Why don't you do a couple of sets of those and then chime in instead of squawking about how bad things are.

So you're saying i've got to read your ab, bicep, or calf workout before i can put in my 2cents on all the product pushing and bashing? WTF.

 

[chimera83]

Nelson, I have your book as well as many more on the issue of steroids/fitness/lifting ect. I do believe that your approach to physical fitness is a lot different than most people who frequent the anabolic boards. I'm am not saying that everything you say or recommend is pure bullshit, but I dont see how you can recommend a product like Dermacrine when you have not personally tried it yourself (it just seems that everything else you recommend you do so becuase of positive personal experience)

 

[jamesG]

dear nelson,

I said that I would not waste my time on you. But I feel that I have to say some things. You have engaged in every practice that you say you hate and that you have attacked others for. You first post is full of innaccuracies not backed up by science and flies in contradiction to most of the peoples experiences that have posted in opposition to you. You have bashed people that questioned you and bashed products you have not tried as well as pimping other "buddy sponsor" products that you have not. You have made false claims about products when you apparently dont even know what the ingredients of are or even have a basic understanding of them. You have demanded that others prove thier contentions or points and when they have you dont accept it or completely ignore the information that they presented and then say your experience is superior and say that you dont have to prove anything.

You have made numerous personal attacks on people who cannot post to defend themselves while saying that you are a good guy who was persecuted. All I have seen from you is a bunch of unsupported claims and uneccesary attacks on people that question you or people who you obviously have a personal grudge against and cannot defend themselves.

 

[boston789]

This site is becoming less and less attractive to me...and alot of others.

 

[KrackerJam]

Nelson, I have your book as well as many more on the issue of steroids/fitness/lifting ect. I do believe that your approach to physical fitness is a lot different than most people who frequent the anabolic boards. I'm am not saying that everything you say or recommend is pure bullshit, but I dont see how you can recommend a product like Dermacrine when you have not personally tried it yourself (it just seems that everything else you recommend you do so becuase of positive personal experience)

It's the new soup du jour