Don't Fear Bloating!

[Nelson Montana]

A lot of guys are so afraid of retatining water and they use all sorts of shit to get rid of it. NOT, a good idea.

Part of bloating is increased blood volume. This brings more nutrients to the muscles and allows for greater growth. Why get rid of that? Water also soothes the joints and increases strength. (A good portion of the incresed strength from creatine is the water retention). The supplement VIGOR increases blood volume and that too is another reason why it's effective. Let the steroids do their thing!

Of course, no one wants a moon face. But that is avoidable simply by using lower dosages. ADroll is the worst for this because it's the one steroid which increases blood volume the most! Just keep it under control.

Using anti e's to reduce bloat just isn't smart, AND...it hinders gains by lowering IGF.

Nobody likes bloat but it's more of a vanity thing. If you just want to get rid of a little water under the skin, a natty diuretic (DEFINITION being the best IMO) is all you need. And break a sweat during your workout! If the edema gets so bad that your blood pressure rises, take a triple dose of DEFINITION for 3 days, drink a lot of water and take it easy on the salt and it should get you back to normal.

Water retention is a part of cycling. Keep it under control but don't try to elliminate it altogether.

 

[yoop33]

I don't really mind bloating much at all. My face does get big and round but the only thing I have to do is keep my head up to avoid the double chin. I dont mind at all.

 

[H_T_]

what about the additional water around the heart?

 

[samoth]

Another great post from Nelson.

I don't understand what's with so many people wanting to use steroids but lose weight ("cut", whatever) and prevent water retention. Unless one is cutting like, e.g., Needsize for a comp, simply controlling ones diet would be the credited response.

Getting bigger and stronger -- the primary reasons for anabolic steroid use -- necessarily means gaining weight (big shock, I know) and increasing water retention. If people are having that big of an issue with bloat, perhaps the number and amount of steroids being taken should be reanalyzed.

 

[yankees5677]

I could care less about bloating. In fact I enjoy the extra water size because I know its only temporary. But what if youre using an anti-e for the purpose of preventing gyno. As a result water retention is cut down. How could you get around that? I would love to not take an anti-e during my cycle but I worry about getting gyno.
My cycle
500Mg test wk1-14
300Mg deca wk1-12
dball wk 1-5
.25 Adex ED wk 1-5 then after the dball is out of the cycle I only want to use Adex if necessary.

 

[lartinos]

I guess if you like low doseages or don't bloat much, but thats rare. I bloat on 250mg's test! like many others. So...... for a the small percent on this board that like doing low doseages or don't bloat much sure its a good idea. Otherwise it is unhealthy walking around as a bloated piece of shit.

 

[samoth]

what about the additional water around the heart?

Hmm... interesting question. I believe the mechanisms leading to water retention are somewhat selective, but their impact here might or might not be similarly impacted. Definitely worth looking into.

 

[H_T_]

Hmm... interesting question. I believe the mechanisms leading to water retention are somewhat selective, but their impact here might or might not be similarly impacted. Definitely worth looking into.

i was given meds specifically for that. the bp stuff wasn't cutting it, so i was given a diuretic. i was told it was to eliminate excess water around my heart. my numbers dropped quite a bit after i started it.....

 

[Nelson Montana]

what about the additional water around the heart?

That's a serious question. if it's an issue for you obviously it would make sense to use only compounds that don't increase water retention, e.g. Primmo and Winnee. Take DEFINITION every day. Don't exceed cycles beyond 6 weeks.

Yes, as samoth says, steroids are size promoting drugs and then you've got guys doing everything possible to prevent getting bigger. I think it's also funny when people regard a drug as a "mass" drug or a "cutting" drug. There's not much difference . Some just increase blood and water volume more than others.

 

[samoth]

i was given meds specifically for that. the bp stuff wasn't cutting it, so i was given a diuretic. i was told it was to eliminate excess water around my heart. my numbers dropped quite a bit after i started it.....

If you have the literature that (sometimes) comes with prescription drugs, it might have the pharmacodynamics and information showing how it works here. Knowing how excess water is removed might assist in figuring out how and what causes the retention, and extrapolate given the mechanisms by which anabolic steroids function in mammailian organisms.

 

[georgie24]

i dont agree with this post

 

[jeb0177]

I hate boating period. little bloat and my bp goes up...not good for me.

 

[ShowKidd]

what about the additional water around the heart?

i believe that it what causes high blood pressure since the blood stream is the second biggest storage area for water (muscles being the first) that is why hypertensive people take diuretics, if it wasn't a big deal to carry all that extra water then they wouldn't need them. i personally do not like carrying extra water weight because i adjust my diet accordingly and if i gained 10 lbs in 2 weeks how am i gonna know if it was water or to many calories? and as far as anti e's slowing gains, it has been shown a million times and written in a lot of books that it isn't enough to worry about.

 

[Triple J]

well when i say bloat i mean BLOAT not just a little water in the muscles, but water around the internal organs. too much bloat is an indication the system is out of balance and as such this impose greater health risks i.e. BP / HTN, heart problems, diaphragmatic hernia, GERD, constipation ... not to mention just feeling like shit. being bloated will usually reduce ones appetite. the stomach and GI systems stretch receptors will be over-stimulated suppressing hunger and normal motility.

 

[needsize]

boy nelson, I am agreeing with so much that you have posted lately
I have been saying this one for a while, with bloat comes strength, with strength usually comes extra muscle growth, so I have never worried about bloat unless dieting for something...

 

[tampdav]

What about bromocriptinemesylate or triamterene/hctz for bloat instead of anastrozole when the the bloat is so bad you can't put your shoes on?

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

I also have to agree with Nelson on this.

After having finished my first cycle (500mg test EW) with some Dianabol - methandrostenolone - I learned ALOT of things.

I used aromasin throughout and used it every day. All told I gained 16lbs and kept 13. My strength started skyrocketing around week 5 and didn't let up at all.

I felt like crap throughout the whole cycle and lethargic. I trained hard and ate alot, but I just didn't feel that hot. I also had some consistent shortness of breath which I believe was nothing more than first cycle anxiety.

I used, and you can laugh if you want to, about 2.5mg aromasin ed throughout and I feel that was too much for me at 500mg test ew.

I'm 1 week into my second cycle(500mg Sustanon ew and Dianabol - methandrostenolone - kickstart) and I'm using 2.5mg aromasin e3d and I feel good.

As little as 2.5mg aromasin is, I think that shit is powerful and believe I felt the effects of constant lowered estrogen levels.

 

[Pat_McCrotch]

Did your MD do an ECHO to see if there was fluid arounf your heart our is he just assuming? some MDs make a lot of assumptions which we like to call clinical judgement and are not always right.

Sure your pressure came down with the diuretic. thats generally the first BP drug MDs will prescribe. Was it HCTZ?

 

[layinback]

A lot of guys are so afraid of retatining water and they use all sorts of shit to get rid of it. NOT, a good idea.

Part of bloating is increased blood volume. This brings more nutrients to the muscles and allows for greater growth. Why get rid of that? Water also soothes the joints and increases strength. (A good portion of the incresed strength from creatine is the water retention). The supplement VIGOR increases blood volume and that too is another reason why it's effective. Let the steroids do their thing!

Of course, no one wants a moon face. But that is avoidable simply by using lower dosages. ADroll is the worst for this because it's the one steroid which increases blood volume the most! Just keep it under control.

Using anti e's to reduce bloat just isn't smart, AND...it hinders gains by lowering IGF.

Nobody likes bloat but it's more of a vanity thing. If you just want to get rid of a little water under the skin, a natty diuretic (DEFINITION being the best IMO) is all you need. And break a sweat during your workout! If the edema gets so bad that your blood pressure rises, take a triple dose of DEFINITION for 3 days, drink a lot of water and take it easy on the salt and it should get you back to normal.

Water retention is a part of cycling. Keep it under control but don't try to elliminate it altogether.

my third cycle was abombs and sus, bloated like abig dog!!! go to my guy, he trains competitors, and im like "dude look at my face" he said " thats the juice doin its thing, thats why you are stronger, deal with it" i have never used anything for bloat, i do really light cycles for short durations and it typically is not an issue. i am amazed at some of the monster cycles and accompanying ancillaries i see on ef. to each his own.

 

[yankees5677]

boy nelson, I am agreeing with so much that you have posted lately
I have been saying this one for a while, with bloat comes strength, with strength usually comes extra muscle growth, so I have never worried about bloat unless dieting for something...

Needsize and Nelson...
I am taking .25mg ed arimidex to prevent any gyno on my cycle of test, deca, and dbol. I am not taking it to prevent water retention. I dont mind the water retention at all. How can you prevent gyno without taking an anti e and not affect water retention?

 

[mattdan]

I agree Nelson but in my case anything more than minor water retention causes pretty bad sleep apnea and increase in my (already marginal) BP.

I HAVE to keep the water off. I generally use light doses of lasix 40 mg ed which is a very safe dose and is pretty effective.

I will check out your products as well. I want to try your test booster / anti E

 

[danymal04]

i take a tiny drop of letro every 3 to 4 days because with every cycle I've ran I've bloated moon face style which turns me into a freakish ugly. Maybe its just me, but that drop drops weight I believe, saves me hassle w/ blood pressure issues as it always rises and still am gaining already 3-4lbs looking solid bros. I want to get jacked dont get me wrong and grow. But i believe it will all work out in the end and if not, I'm not convinced to converty back because that style is way to unhealthy for me even when my diet is healthy.

 

[gslben]

Not so much fear but.....

When everyone you know just rolls their eyes and shakes their head at you because one week you are normal and the next your face looks like a balloon.....that's my concern

 

[socket]

The use of anti-estrogens should be absolutely minimal, these are harsh chems, and shouldn't be fucked with unless absolutely NEEDED.

I have Femara, nolvadex, arimidex all in the cupboard, and only IF i feel gyno coming on, do they get chance to leave the cupboard. Drugs aromatise when used at high levels. if they are aromatising, you are overdoing it. Cut back a little.

as for water retention, Needsize has it spot on, with water, joints are better lubed, you are stronger, etc, so in these conditions, you get stronger and bigger. If you are really bloating, drop the sodium/sodas, etc, get some cardio done, and after you've got the size on you need, drop the water out with some primmo or winny.

Good, truthful post Nelson.

 

[needsize]

Needsize and Nelson...
I am taking .25mg ed arimidex to prevent any gynecomastia on my cycle of test, Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - , and Dianabol - methandrostenolone - . I am not taking it to prevent water retention. I dont mind the water retention at all. How can you prevent gynecomastia without taking an anti e and not affect water retention?

nolva/tamoxifin, will stop the estrogen from attaching to receptors in the nipple area, but still leaves the estrogen in your body

 

[H_T_]

is Definition a product? link please?

 

[Nelson Montana]

is Definition a product? link please?

Here ya go bro: http://proteinfactory.com/shop/product.php?productid=919&cat=0&page=1

 

[yankees5677]

Nolvaldex - tamoxifen citrate - /tamoxifin, will stop the estrogen from attaching to receptors in the nipple area, but still leaves the estrogen in your body

I am on deca so I cant take the nolvaldex. I could use clomid correct?

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

So then, for those using higher dosages of aromatizing drugs and/or are paranoid about gyno, would taking 5-10mg a dayof nolva be a decent preventative dose so you can keep the positive effect of the water gain?

Or just keep all ancillaries on hand and only use when needed.

To recap symptoms of gyno, I check once or twice every day with flexed chest and also arm raised for sensitivity increases or soreness, abnormal swelling and any lumps. Takes me about 10 seconds.

One last question, can you get gyno growth without much swelling or pain/tenderness?

 

[samoth]

I agree Nelson but in my case anything more than minor water retention causes pretty bad sleep apnea and increase in my (already marginal) BP.

I HAVE to keep the water off. I generally use light doses of lasix 40 mg ed which is a very safe dose and is pretty effective.

Hmm... is the sleep apnea effect common for people? I don't think I've heard that one before. Also, have you tried other diuretics and found they don't work as well as lasix or the lasix-type diuretics?

 

[mattdan]

Hmm... is the sleep apnea effect common for people? I don't think I've heard that one before. Also, have you tried other diuretics and found they don't work as well as lasix or the lasix-type diuretics?

I believe the sleep apnea is far more common than many realize, although I think I get it with lower doses than most. How often do we see posts from someone complaining that they're on gear and are tired during the day? I think very often this is caused by sleep apnea.

Lasix is the only thing I've really tried. It's easy to get and very cheap. I don't care for the potassium depletion as it can sometimes lead to cramping.

Do you have a suggestion for something besides lasix?

 

[Nelson Montana]

One: As needsize stated, Nolva isn;t really great for bloating and it's the most suporessive to IGF. I think a lot of people are missing the point of the thread. A: Water gain has its advantages. And B: For excess bloat a natty solution is available.

As for sleep apnea, that sucks. I've experienced it myself. It' s more from rapid weight gain than water and can be prevented 90% of the time if you condition yourself to sleep on your side.

 

[mattdan]

I have to sleep on my stomach, I even get it on my side. I guess I'm just prone to it. My neck is pretty big, I think that's the main reason I'm prone to it.

As to your main point, I completely agree that size adds strength. anti-e's do reduce gains, but I've never personally seen a huge difference. It's just a trade off that many of us are willing to make. Sacrifice a small percentage of the gains for other reasons or health issues.

I mean if anti-e's totally killed gains, mas teron would be a self defeating drug. (I know you're not saying they kill gains, just reduce them).

 

[samoth]

I believe the sleep apnea is far more common than many realize, although I think I get it with lower doses than most. How often do we see posts from someone complaining that they're on gear and are tired during the day? I think very often this is caused by sleep apnea.

Lasix is the only thing I've really tried. It's easy to get and very cheap. I don't care for the potassium depletion as it can sometimes lead to cramping.

Do you have a suggestion for something besides lasix?

I seem to recall there being, like, three or so classes of diuretics, all working in different ways. I don't have any experiences with this stuff, so I was just wondering if you found certain types better than others in this regard. I thought there might have been a reason you chose lasix over other "easier" ones.

 

[Selene]

Excellent topic

 

[gslben]

Top...

 

[mattdan]

I seem to recall there being, like, three or so classes of diuretics, all working in different ways. I don't have any experiences with this stuff, so I was just wondering if you found certain types better than others in this regard. I thought there might have been a reason you chose lasix over other "easier" ones.

What do you mean by "easier ones"? I have been wanting to try one of the potassium sparing diuretics, is that what you mean by easier?

And to any newbies that read this - if you take lasix, only do so in moderation. This is one of those drugs that if abused can cause serious problems.

 

[samoth]

What do you mean by "easier ones"? I have been wanting to try one of the potassium sparing diuretics, is that what you mean by easier?

Yes, by easier I meant safer, k-sparing diuretics.

Do you use any supplements like potassium with lasix, or do you find that a low dose does not require such?

 

[mattdan]

Yes, by easier I meant safer, k-sparing diuretics.

Do you use any supplements like potassium with lasix, or do you find that a low dose does not require such?

Very rarely. I keep a bottle of potassium on hand just in case, but I never need it. As long as I stay properly hydrated I don't get cramps, on the rare occasion that I do a glass of OJ and/or a bananna seems to provide more than enough potassium.

 

[mobro]

threads like this one are the ones that help people. giving props where do:

Samoth and Nelson, and now Needto is agreeing, you guys are the reason I have shortened my cycles and lowered my doses. i have felt better, recovered better, saved money, and gained just as much without the sides such as Deca dick and loss of libido.

 

[Nelson Montana]

threads like this one are the ones that help people. giving props where do:

Samoth and Nelson, and now Needto is agreeing, you guys are the reason I have shortened my cycles and lowered my doses. i have felt better, recovered better, saved money, and gained just as much without the sides such as Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - dick and loss of libido.

That's the kind of post I love to read.

By the way, sparring K with the use of diuretics isn't always a good thing. A potassium/sodium imbalance puts you at risk of a heart attack if it gets too extreme. K is not the way to go to get rid of water. A little is fine, but I would never go over 200% of the RDA. Inducing urination naturally (and sweating) is the much safer for removing excess water.

 

[mr.nitro]

why is every single post a sales pitch?

 

[samoth]

By the way, sparring K with the use of diuretics isn't always a good thing. A potassium/sodium imbalance puts you at risk of a heart attack if it gets too extreme.

Whoa, what? Really? I was not aware of this.

... hmm... it does make sense when you think about it, but so much negative press is given to non-k-sparing diuretics that not much is said about the potential dangers of those that do.

 

[al420]

Whoa, what? Really? I was not aware of this.

What else is new.....

 

[Nelson Montana]

why is every single post a sales pitch?

That's funny, I went back over the 4 pages and saw that only the first post even mentioned a recommended product pertaining to the topic. Many people have found the subject and information useful so where is this even coming from?

 

[Triple J]

you rarely saw bros back in Arnie's or Larry Scott's day bloat the way today's BB do with their distended guts and such, so it does not hinder the gains that much to stay away from long-ester test, insulin, etc. i like water retention to a degree just not when it starts to distend the gut and affect the internal organs, raising BP, causing shortness of breath, and straining the heart. then its bad news. i agree run as little anti-e as possible but have it on hand if you need to increase the dose. a mild diuretic can also be helpful. but the best bet for most people (non-competitors) is to strictly limit the amount of aromatizing gear. although Arnie and others in that day loved their dbol, perhaps the large amounts of primo they ran with it limited the aromatization.

 

[samoth]

What else is new.....

I love my precious water weight.

Then again, I can't comprehend bloating up so much I couldn't get my shoes on.

 

[MichaelScott]

makes sense, i like the bloat feels like i am accomplishing something visually

 

[2raptors]

Anyway, I thought the sales-pitch's and ads came WITH my plat membership? I LOVE those links! Keep 'em coming.

I tell you...you guys have got me very stoked for my first cycle (I'm just WAITING for my package to arrive) and I'm giong to follow Nelson's advice to the "T" and post progress.! Thanks for the great thread guys!

M

 

[gjohnson5]

The IGF-1 increase is due to estrogen elevation
There are studies that suggest that arimidex and femara actually increase IGF-1

A lot of guys are so afraid of retatining water and they use all sorts of shit to get rid of it. NOT, a good idea.

Part of bloating is increased blood volume. This brings more nutrients to the muscles and allows for greater growth. Why get rid of that? Water also soothes the joints and increases strength. (A good portion of the incresed strength from creatine is the water retention). The supplement VIGOR increases blood volume and that too is another reason why it's effective. Let the steroids do their thing!

Of course, no one wants a moon face. But that is avoidable simply by using lower dosages. ADroll is the worst for this because it's the one steroid which increases blood volume the most! Just keep it under control.

Using anti e's to reduce bloat just isn't smart, AND...it hinders gains by lowering IGF.

Nobody likes bloat but it's more of a vanity thing. If you just want to get rid of a little water under the skin, a natty diuretic (DEFINITION being the best IMO) is all you need. And break a sweat during your workout! If the edema gets so bad that your blood pressure rises, take a triple dose of DEFINITION for 3 days, drink a lot of water and take it easy on the salt and it should get you back to normal.

Water retention is a part of cycling. Keep it under control but don't try to elliminate it altogether.

 

[al420]

I love my precious water weight.

Then again, I can't comprehend bloating up so much I couldn't get my shoes on.

Which is why I squat barefoot

 

[st8grad]

why is every single post a sales pitch?

Because he sells supplements for a living.

 

[gjohnson5]

I don't really believe there's any real risk with getting potassium out of balance with sodium unless you are using KCL salts.

Sodium is in everything...

Whoa, what? Really? I was not aware of this.

... hmm... it does make sense when you think about it, but so much negative press is given to non-k-sparing diuretics that not much is said about the potential dangers of those that do.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I don't really believe there's any real risk with getting potassium out of balance with sodium unless you are using KCL salts.

Sodium is in everything...

You can if you're dehydrated and taking excess K supplementation though.

 

[gjohnson5]

Potassium is limited in the US to 99mg in any capsule form due to health risks
The most concentrated form is potasium choride salt (a substitute for nacl)
Now has some that like $3 a bottle

100mg of sodium however is simply to easy without supplementation to consume exogenously

You can if you're dehydrated and taking excess K supplementation though.

 

[Hybridtheory2o]

Nobody ever answered the question about if you are taking pretty high dosages of heavily aromatizing drugs/and/or you are just worried about gyno and want to take more of a proactive approach by taking 5-10mg of nolvadex a day throughout cycle rather than being reactive and taking it only when gyno starts if it does. Some guys just dont like the idea of something bad forming and then trying to stop it versus sacrificing a little perhaps to prevent something shitty like gyno from occuring. I would just like to see the answer to that.

 

[Hybridtheory2o]

I would also like to see in order of effectiveness and/or favorite of what you can do after PCT to get the bloat back down and get a little more ripped up after a bulking cycle of a cycle consisting of some test e or cyp with some dbol for a kickstart.

 

[abolish the weak]

nice sales pitch bro

 

[Hybridtheory2o]

Sales pitch? Who was that to?

 

[gjohnson5]

The theory is that there is a direct correlation between estrogen levels and IGF-1 levels. Woman have more IGF-1 endogenously then men. But woman are not as musclar then men , which suggests to me that men have a higher response to human growth hormone - somatropin - , igf-1 then women do. ANyway many simply suggest allowing aromatization and letting the estrogen rise such as IGF-1 will also rise. Whether this is actually true is up for debate. As I stated , there are studies (also on women) that suggest some anti e's actually increase IGF-1

Whether your gains are actually better by not using anti-e's is up for debate and will need study. To be honest I don't see how one can advocate getting gynecomastia, bloat , high blood pressure, just for some gains that you may or may not get. The anti inflammatory , anti oxidant, and anti osteoporosis effects of estrogen can be debated, but that's not why people juice

To make a long story short , estrogen is needed. Whether men should have elevated estrogen at any time , I'd have to disagree with

Nobody ever answered the question about if you are taking pretty high dosages of heavily aromatizing drugs/and/or you are just worried about gynecomastia and want to take more of a proactive approach by taking 5-10mg of nolvadex a day throughout cycle rather than being reactive and taking it only when gynecomastia starts if it does. Some guys just dont like the idea of something bad forming and then trying to stop it versus sacrificing a little perhaps to prevent something shitty like gynecomastia from occuring. I would just like to see the answer to that.

 

[Hybridtheory2o]

So I take it you favor the more reactive approach? You would agree with taking measures to reduce but not eliminate estrogen and you would agree with taking precautions to prevent gyno before it even starts rather than waiting to see if it pops up then trying to react to it? If it does sacrafice some gains id rather do that seeing as it prolly cant hinder gains THAT much. I dunno maybe I am wrong tho. So much to learn and so much is debatable.

 

[sincere81oo0]

i take nolvadex troughout cycles sometimes to block gyno. other than that all the other goodies i save for pct.... bu thats just me

 

[gjohnson5]

I believe there is also a link between elevated estrogen and reduced spermatogenesis and testicular function...

The trade off is just not worth it IMHO

I would be PROACTIVE and start using anti estrogens / or DHT's once you start taking testosterone based drugs

So I take it you favor the more reactive approach? You would agree with taking measures to reduce but not eliminate estrogen and you would agree with taking precautions to prevent gynecomastia before it even starts rather than waiting to see if it pops up then trying to react to it? If it does sacrafice some gains id rather do that seeing as it prolly cant hinder gains THAT much. I dunno maybe I am wrong tho. So much to learn and so much is debatable.

 

[Hybridtheory2o]

You take it 25mg EOD like that I assume? I was thinking about doing that. Its just hard for me to stomach the idea of looking in the mirror everyday to see if I have lumps then be like oh shit and then start doing something about it. Do you start it the same day you begin your cycle or do u have to start shortly before so it can get in and do its thing?

 

[gjohnson5]

What is it?

I would start with a low dose arimidex proactively
More like .25mg eod and then reactively up the dosage as your needs permit

You take it 25mg EOD like that I assume? I was thinking about doing that. Its just hard for me to stomach the idea of looking in the mirror everyday to see if I have lumps then be like oh shit and then start doing something about it. Do you start it the same day you begin your cycle or do u have to start shortly before so it can get in and do its thing?

 

[Hybridtheory2o]

I was thinking about that but wasnt sure how necessary that would be at 250mg a week.

 

[daveyboy2345]

if your taking a low dosage cycle and just want to be proactive 10 mgs nolvadex mon-fri. would be fine as would arimadex at .5mg mon, wed, fri. Otherwise a bit more would be needed when dosages get higher.

 

[mobro]

i was under the impression that Adex'x half life allowed i to be taken say twice a week. am I wrong on this? I think anything in moderation is the answer. Higher doses, longer cycles, etc. are more likely for sides, IMO. and call for higher doses of anti's and such to combat. why not just use lower doses, get good gains, recover easier, stay healthier, etc.? on the other hand, it sure is hard to come down from that "cycle high" and not push it further than I should. so i see both sides.

 

[holy ghost]

He says A drol and Moon face and all of a sudden this becomes a legitimate thread for the AAS section sounds more like supplement pushing to me these guys never stop do they.

 

[Hybridtheory2o]

Thats why I read it and take it in but dont rush to order anything. You can never tell.

 

[bigswole95]

Great post