Well, me personally....I feel like there are few people at my gym who work harder than myself. Granted I am not nearly as big or as strong as the older guys, but for 17 and natural I feel i'm doing good, I feel I have a good work ethic. I get the sense that the big guys juice for the sole purpose of not havign to work as hard. I know that sounds bad, but when you see them standing around talking you start to wonder.