Deadlift Program Help

[miked8c]

I am doing some I have never done before, createing a program devoted mainly to the deadlift. For this program I have two priorities:

First(most important)- 500 lbs. deadlift
As of right now, I can do 345x13. If I had to lowball myself I would say I can 1RM 445.

Second(afterthough)- Rep 315 on bench
I have a seperate program I will be following for my bench.


For my deadlift portion I this is a rough outline

- 2 days a week dedicated solely to deadlift progression exercises.
-9 week program
-Incorporating: Defecit Deadlifts, Rack Deadlifts, Front Squats, Romanians.
- Constraint: Don't want to exceed a BW of 210(195 right now)
- 1 compound DL Movement per week( I believe that like squats, deadlift can only be trained at full strength once a week, anymore, and performance will suffer, even if you are not sore.)

Rough Layout:

Week 1
Day 1
DL 5RM

Day 4
Front Squat 5RM

Week 2
Day 1
DL 3RM

Day 4
Front Squat 3RM

Week 3
Day 1
DL 1RM

Day 4
Front Squat 1RM

Week 4(Real program begins)
Day 1
Deficit DL 5RM

Day 4
Romanians(never done these before, what should my rep scheme be)

Week 5
Day1
Deficit DL 3RM

Day 4
Romanians(Input Appreciated)

Week 6
Day 1
Deficit DL 1RM

Day 4
Romanians(Input)

Week 7
Day 1
Rack Pulls 5RM

Day 4
Front Squats 3RM

Week 8
Day 1
Rack Pulls 3RM

Day 4
Front Squats 1RM

Week 9
Day 1
Rack Pulls 1RM

Day 4
Rest? 1RM next day 1?

1RM DL a Week after last day

I realize this program is a little basic, keep some things in mind:

- I only listed the first exercise for each day. My assistance will be a combination of chins, weighted chins, rowing movements and spinals decompressors, such as GHRs.
- The other two days of the week I will be doing benching and shoulders.
- I put rack pulls in the last three weeks so that I get maximal weight in my hands before I 1RM(ideally weight that is higher than 500 lbs.)

Ok guys, any and all input is greatly appreciated. I have never created a program that was mainly geared towards increasing my DL. I believe that this goal is definitely realistic, I have never done deficit DLs or rack pulls and am expecting serious newbie gains. Help me out guys, be critical. I especially need advice for romanians, should they be assistance instead?

 

[ExtraMile]

Why not pull from the floor and use a peaking method while using rack pulls, squatting and/or Romanians as assistance?

If you want to do your program and you want to use Romanians as a max effort Exercise then I would work up to a 2-6RM.

 

[_cato_]

Why not try Coan-Phillipi 10 week routine? Could use this for your deadlift day and then do normal 3/5/1 stuff on the other 2-3 days perhaps.

Based on a 445 lbs (202 kg) current max and a 500 lbs (227 kg) desired max we get the following cycle. Weights are rounded to the nearest 5 lbs. Notation: sets x reps @ weight.
NOTES: Percentages for the deadlifts are based on the desired max whereas percentages for the power shrugs are based on the current max. Rest 90-120 sec between sets of all assistance exercises.
Week 1

Deadlift (75%): 1x2 @ 375 lbs
Speed deadlift (60%): 8x3 @ 300 lbs (90 sec rest b/w sets)
3 circuits (rest 90sec between exercises, 2-3 minutes between circuits):
Stiff-leg deadlift: 8 reps
Bent over row: 8 reps
Underhand (reverse) grip lat pulldown: 8 reps
Arched back good morning: 8 reps

Week 2

Deadlift (80%): 1x2 @ 400 lbs
Speed deadlift (65%): 8x3 @ 325 lbs (90 sec rest b/w sets)
3 circuits (rest 90sec between exercises, 2-3 minutes between circuits):
Stiff-leg deadlift: 8 reps
Bent over row: 8 reps
Underhand (reverse) grip lat pulldown: 8 reps
Arched back good morning: 8 reps

Week 3

Deadlift (85%): 1x2 @ 425 lbs
Speed deadlift (70%): 6x3 @ 350 lbs (90-120 sec rest b/w sets)
3 circuits (rest 90sec between exercises, 2-3 minutes between circuits):
Stiff-leg deadlift: 8 reps
Bent over row: 8 reps
Underhand (reverse) grip lat pulldown: 8 reps
Arched back good morning: 8 reps

Week 4

Deadlift (90%): 1x2 @ 450 lbs
Speed deadlift (75%): 5x3 @ 375 lbs (90-120 sec rest b/w sets)
3 circuits (rest 90sec between exercises, 2-3 minutes between circuits):
Stiff-leg deadlift: 8 reps
Bent over row: 8 reps
Underhand (reverse) grip lat pulldown: 8 reps
Arched back good morning: 8 reps

Week 5

Deadlift (80%): 3x3 @ 400 lbs
Speed deadlift (65%): 3x3 @ 325 lbs (120 sec rest b/w sets)
Power shrugs (60% of current): 3x5 @ 265 lbs
Stiff-leg deadlift: 3x5
Bent over row: 3x5
Underhand (reverse) grip lat pulldown: 3x5
Arched back good morning: 3x5

Week 6

Deadlift (85%): 1x2 @ 425 lbs
Speed deadlift (70%): 3x3 @ 350 lbs (120 sec rest b/w sets)
Power shrugs (65% of current): 3x5 @ 290 lbs
Stiff-leg deadlift: 3x5
Bent over row: 3x5
Underhand (reverse) grip lat pulldown: 3x5
Arched back good morning: 3x5

Week 7

Deadlift (90%): 1x2 @ 450 lbs
Speed deadlift (75%): 3x3 @ 375 lbs (120 sec rest b/w sets)
Power shrugs (70% of current): 2x5 @ 310 lbs
Stiff-leg deadlift: 2x5
Bent over row: 2x5
Underhand (reverse) grip lat pulldown: 2x5
Arched back good morning: 2x5

Week 8

Deadlift (95%): 1x2 @ 475 lbs
Speed deadlift (70%): 3x3 @ 350 lbs (120 sec rest b/w sets)
Power shrugs (75% of current): 2x5 @ 335 lbs
Stiff-leg deadlift: 2x5
Bent over row: 2x5
Underhand (reverse) grip lat pulldown: 2x5
Arched back good morning: 2x5

Week 9

Deadlift (97.5%): 1x1 @ 490 lbs
Speed deadlift (70%): 2x3 @ 350 lbs (rest as needed b/w sets)
Power shrugs (75% of current): 2x5 @ 335 lbs
Stiff-leg deadlift: 2x5

Week 10

Deadlift (100%): 1x1 @ 500 lbs
Speed deadlift (60%): 2x3 @ 300 lbs (rest as needed b/w sets)

Week 11: Meet day/max attempt


Source: Tsampa.org: Coan-Phillipi 10 Week Deadlift Routine

 

[_cato_]

Or you could do something like the above on Day 2, and a 5x5 style workout on Day 1 and Day 3 (of a 3 day a week program).

Day 1: Squat 5x5, Bench 5x5, Press 1x5 + 1/2 assistance
Day 3: Squat 1x5, Bench(or incline) 1x5, Flat Dumbell Press 5x10 (or closegrip 3x5) + 1/2 assistance

Alternatively you could do speed work on Day 3 (for stuff other than pulling since you're doing a ton of pulling on Day 2).

 

[miked8c]

Thanks Cato

However can I make gains if I just do a normal DL for 10 weeks, as I am not exactly untrained. Wouldn't I be better off mixing it up with different DL variations?

 

[_cato_]

I think it depends. You said you think your current max is ~445. This means you should be able to hit around 385 for 5. It's possible that you could hit your goal just by increasing by 5 lbs a week and just doing normal deadlifts once a week for 1x5. Then in 9 weeks you'd have a 5rm of 430, equivalent to a 1rm of 502. Alternatively, you could do a peaking scheme like EM suggested. Maybe doing 3 weeks of 1x5, 3 weeks of 3x3, and 3 weeks of 5x1 singles. You may be able to hit your aim with any of these methods.

As far as doing different modified deadlifts and other assistance work, I think it depends on your weak points for your deadlift. Do you fail at heavier weight because you cant get it off the floor? Do you fail toward the top/lockout? Do you fail in the middle? Do you fail because your lower back isn't strong enough to hold you up while you're pulling it? How's your speed throughout the lift?

If you're strong off the floor, doing deficit deadlifts won't help much. If your weak spot is somewhere above the bottom, and your quad strength is solid, you might benefit a lot from doing rack pulls from just below the knee. Those particularly work the back without leg drive coming much into it, since you're skipping the bottom.

You could even try deadlifting twice a week on Monday and Friday, one day as a heavy day and the other as a speed day with 50-60%. Depends on how important hitting the 500 is to you. On the workout plan you posted above, were you planning on taking back squats out entirely?

Also, perhaps bblazer will chime in here.

 

[ExtraMile]

The DL program that Cato posted is not a beginner routine. What makes you think you can't make progress from deadlifting?

You should also video your DL form, tweaking you form could put another 5-20lbs on your max...

 

[miked8c]

I went in yesterday, originally going to pull 385x5. I pulled 405x5 with a lot left in the tank, like 3-4 more reps.

I think you guys are right, I have never done peaking methods with DLs. I have never even focused on DLs that much.

I think I can squeeze some serious gains without having to go to crazy with DL variations.

I think I'll scrap the deficit DLs, however I will keep the rack pulls because I know that I could definitely benefit from those. Should I follow the peaking method? Or do I need to go into as much detail as the 10 week routine?

 

[_cato_]

Personally, I would keep it as simple as you can while still making good gains. If you can just deadlift once a week and keep adding 5 lbs why not continue? Try a top set of 5 or try a peaking scheme (like 1x5 for 3 weeks, 1x3 for 3 weeks, 3x1 for 3 weeks) , it doesn't really matter. Or if you're so inclined, try the phillipi-coan routine. Just do whatever your preference is and stick with it for the 9-10 weeks. You should be able to hit the 500 within that time frame. Already at 405x5 your projected max is ~475.

Using elaborate schemes only becomes important when you're at a point where you can't make weekly progress anymore, and strength increases are only made over the course of 2 or 4 weeks. If you find that you can't make weekly progress using one of the more simple methods, that's when you should seriously consider using a more complex periodized program.

 

[ExtraMile]

When I mensioned a peaking method I didn't have in mind exactly what Cato described, although that may work too.

Honestly if you feel like you can still make (somewhat) linear progress with just once a week regular straight sets from the floor then go ahead. You can probably squat heavy and recover too if your just doing that.

Edit: just read the post above this and he pretty much hit the nail on the head

 

[SouthernLord]

I added 40 pounds to my DL max using th coan program. I also tripled my starting max at the end. It's a solid, but very demanding routine.

I didn't squat the whole 10 weeks. My low back couldn't handle it. I was able to do front squats though. You could probably manage a bench specialization program while doing the coan routine if you make recovery a priority.

 

[moya]

im starting the coan DL program tomorrow morning... no squats during the 12 weeks... looking to bring my DL up from 507 to 550...
will be cruising on 175mg test/wk...

you should give it a try mike, looks like a solid program....

 

[miked8c]

Hey guys, thanks for the participation in this thread. The Coan looks great, but I think I can milk linear progression to be honest. If I were to do a peaking scheme, what exactly would the reps look like, week by week. I think Coan would be best after I do linear progression.

 

[ExtraMile]

Peaking you would basically start off at x amount of reps (below your max) and make big jumps until you reach the x rep max then lower the reps to allow for a few weeks more progress until you can no longer. Gets pretty stressful (mental+physical) towards the end. If you weren't eating enough to recover because you were worried about gaining too much bw this may end up restricting it.

I sent you a K message btw

 

[_cato_]

There's really no "right answer" here. The general idea is to move from more volume at a lower intensity to less volume at a higher intensity. You could try something like this (assuming a 405 lbs max set of 5)(2nd column is % of your 1RM):

Week 1 (1x5): 74% 210 245 280 315 350
Week 2 (1x5): 79% 225 265 300 340 375
Week 3 (1x5): 84% 235 275 315 355 395
Week 4 (1x5): 88% 250 290 330 375 415
Week 5 (1x3): 90% 255 300 340 385 425
Week 6 (1x3): 94% 265 310 355 400 445
Week 7 (1x3): 98% 280 325 370 420 465
Week 8 (1x3): 100% 285 335 380 430 475
Week 9 (1x1): 106% 300 350 400 450 500 +

(1x5 meaning 1 top set of 5, etc)

 

[miked8c]

I know the whole idea behind starting light. However, would I really need to begin the cycle with the first three weeks significantly below 405x5 for the top set? I mean 405x5 is not too tough at this point, would I start at 405x5? Realistically I could probably get 405x7

 

[Tblock1]

I'm thinking if you can get 405x7 then your max is higher than 445. I know when I first pulled 445 a while back my max for 5 was 380. Also the Coan routine is probably your best bet...that took me from 335 to 375 a long while back and I didnt even follow the routine that closely. However if you still think you can get some serious progression with linear routines, go for it.

 

[_cato_]

405 for 7 is already equivalent to a max of 502. If you want to base it off 405 for 7 then your numbers in the same program would be like this:

Week 1 (1x5): 225 265 300 340 375
Week 2 (1x5): 235 275 315 355 395
Week 3 (1x5): 250 290 330 375 415
Week 4 (1x5): 265 310 350 395 440
Week 5 (1x3): 270 315 360 405 450
Week 6 (1x3): 280 330 375 425 470
Week 7 (1x3): 295 345 390 440 490
Week 8 (1x3): 300 350 400 450 500
Week 9: Go for a max single (projected max if you hit 500x3 from the prior week is ~550).

Keep in mind you don't need to pull at 100% of your 5RM (or 3RM as it were) every time to make progress.

 

[_cato_]

What workout are you doing right now for deadlifts?

 

[_cato_]

Just to be clear, and consistent with what I said earlier: I believe simpler is better. If you think you can make progress by doing, for example, 5 sets of 5 ramping to a top set while adding 5 lbs each week, I think that is the optimal thing to do.

Ie. something like:

W1 205 255 305 355 405
W2 205 255 310 360 410
W3 210 260 310 365 415
W4 210 265 315 370 420

I only offer these more complicated routines in case you're at a point where you feel you can't make linear progress or in case you'd just be more enthusiastic doing a more complicated routine. Not because they will necessarily get you faster or better progress.

 

[miked8c]

Thanks for your responses _Cato_.

How would this look Cato:

W1 205 255 305 355 405
W2 205 255 310 360 410
W3 210 260 310 365 415
W4 210 265 315 370 420
W5(1x5)255 300 340 385 425
W6(1x3)265 310 355 400 445
W7(1x3)280 325 370 420 465
W8(1x3)295 345 390 440 490
W9(1x3)300 350 400 450 500

I would start at week 2. Would having a single top set of three be enough volume for progress, I think it would since by week 5 these weights will be close to maximal efforts.

What do you think? please change what you think would work best. Either way I want to start with a weight above 405x5 since I already did that yesterday.

Wouldn't 20 lbs. increments per week be too big? I feel like I would stall on week 7 or something? Maybe I should do ten lbs.? BTW before this I was doing 531 for deadlift, however the weight was far too light as I was working with a training max of 375.

 

[_cato_]

I was thinking that the 20 lbs jumps might be a bit too much in those last few weeks of the routine I posted. I was also thinking, however, that the size of the jumps would be partially offset by the fact that you'd be doing roughly a 5 week buildup before you get to those heavy ass weights. So the idea is that your max will have increased quite a bit by the time you hit the higher numbers. The end result, ie the gains over time, seemed within the realm of possibilities, but hard to know what would happen. It's probably a good idea to reduce them to about 10 lbs as you suggest.

How about this:

W1 (1x5) 205 255 305 355 405
W2 (1x5) 205 255 310 360 410
W3 (1x5) 210 260 310 365 415
W4 (1x5) 210 265 315 370 420
W5 (1x5) 215 265 320 370 425
W6 (1x3) 220 275 330 385 440
W7 (1x3) 230 285 340 400 455
W8 (1x3) 235 290 350 405 465
W9 (1x3) 240 295 355 415 475

Based on current 405x7 numbers, projected 5RM: ~430, projected 1RM: ~500
End result, based on a 475x3 lift, projected final 5RM: ~450, projected final 1RM: ~525
25 lbs added onto your max in roughly 8 weeks

In case you were wondering, this is based loosely off an advanced 8-week periodized pyramid program. Normally, the first four weeks are a volume phase of 5 straight sets of 5, followed by two weeks of 3 straight sets of 3, finally two weeks of a top set of 3. Since you wanted a routine specifically for deadlifts, I felt it prudent to get rid of straight sets, given the taxing nature of the exercise (ie most people don't do straight sets on deadlifts).

The heavy sets of three should be sufficient stimulus to give you gains. Keep in mind you're only doing it for 4 weeks and it'll be quite a bit different from the 5 rep stuff, given the significantly increased loads.

 

[_cato_]

Also, feel free to do assistance work as well (probably scattered throughout the week), though perhaps tail it back in the last week or two.

Weighted ab work, weighted back extensions, GHR, light/higher rep stiff leg deadlifts, chins/pullups/lat pulldown, barbell/dumbell row etc.

 

[moya]

the mother's of all DL assistance would be goodmorning's and zercher's....
also, not to take anything away from anyone here, but those 'projected maxes' are waaay off, even moreso when the reps are above 3's... my max dead is in the 510 range, however i can get 405 for at least 15... which would put my projected max over 550... which i know it ain't gonna happen..

 

[miked8c]

That looks about right _Cato_, I think I'll use that set of numbers for my program. So your saying that instead of doing 3x3 for the last few weeks a single topset of 3 would provide enough stimulation for growth because of the demanding nature of deadlifts?

Also, should I be doing those assistance exercises the same day as my DL day?

 

[_cato_]

Moya is right about the projected maxes. They are not always accurate and can be way off for some people. Just useful guidelines. You can get similar problems using tested maxes as well because by their nature they were your max whenever you took them and not when you are working out (unless it was taken then same day). Also individuals vary in the ability to lift X percentage for Y reps, regardless of 1RM. For example, women tend to be able to lift a higher percentage of 1RM for more reps, when compared to men, regardless of what the charts predict. In sum, these are just guidelines, you'll have to adjust things yourself as you go if things are too hard/too easy. Obviously, if I was there seeing the quality of your reps (ie how fast you're doing them, form deterioration if any, etc), then I could give you more concrete answers on whether/how much to increase weight etc.

Yes Mike, the top set approach should be fine for two reasons: 1) You'll be using weight in the ~90%+ range, which is a very high intensity and gains can be elicited by intensity or volume, or a combination of the two. 2) Clinically, ~60% intensity is required to elicit strength/muscle gains. Therefore, although there is only 1 top set of three, the last three columns in the routine I posted above are sufficiently high intensity as to be in that 60%+ range. In other words, although there's only 1 top set, the other sets are still intense enough to help elicit gains, even though you might be viewing them as warmups.

As for when to do the assistance work, my answer would depend on: what are you going to be doing with the rest of your workout days? Are you going to continue 5/3/1? Or do something else?

 

[miked8c]

I've got a bench routine which will take up two days a week. Don't worry about that, I already got something figured out.

However, I am worried about my squatting. I still want to squat heavy and lately I have been doing high rep ATG squats. Last week I did 335x12, this stuff get me sore.

Do you think for my squat day instead of doing high reps I should just do low reps, would that make me less sore for my DL day? Or may I should switch to front squats, as I recover quicker from them.

 

[_cato_]

So would it look something like this?

D1: Deadlift
D2: Bench day 1
D3: Off
D4: Squat
D5: Bench day 2
D6: Off
D7: Off

If its going to be like this, you could probably do heavy back squats, since you'll have 4 days to recover for the deadlifts. Also, if its going to be along these lines, I'd spread the assistance work out. Do maybe 1-2 exercises on deadlift day, another 1-2 on squat day. Maybe try to throw overhead presses (or incline), some core work, and chins/pullups in somewhere. You could also frontsquat on DL day if you wanted.

 

[miked8c]

Monday: Bench 1
Tuesday: Deadlift
Wednesday: OFF
Thursday: Bench 2
Friday: Squat
Saturday:OFF
Sunday: OFF

So Basically, I just switched my upper body days with my lower body days from what you had originally.

Would having my bench day right after my DL day make my bench day suffer, since the DLs will probably be pretty taxing on my CNS.

On the other hand I could get away with doing my DLs after my bench day without being negatively impacted since relatively speaking I am using much less muscle on my bench day so my DL wouldn't really suffer. Please correct me if you think otherwise.

 

[_cato_]

I think what you have is fine. What did you have in mind for deadlift and squat oriented assistance work?

 

[miked8c]

To be completely honest I don't do lower body assistance. When I squat,after my topset, I will usually do 3x10 with like 235 and I will be gassed for the rest of the work out. For my DL I do the same but with 250, after top set. I follow both exercises with GHRs and pull ups for decompression and finally core work. Its simple, but with the nature of these exercises this has all I have really needed keeping adding lbs. to my squat and DLs



Drawing blanks man, I literally don't do leg assistance besides doing extra sets with the big lifts, and honestly its worked for me up until this point. Should I start? Maybe I could do Romanians on my DL day and Front Squats on my Squat day.

 

[_cato_]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you start encountering weaknesses with either lift, then you can add stuff in.

 

[miked8c]

Aight man, thanks for all the help bro. I'm sure you got better things to do then write me a program step by step. Seriously thanks bro, I'll let you know how things turn out.

 

[_cato_]

lol, no problem man. Keep us posted, I'd like to see how your progress goes.