Dbol- Is It Really Necessary???

[Texas Ranger]

Guys, is Dbol REALLY necessary on a first cycle? Or any cycle, for that matter. On every profile I've read and the feedback I've received from various boards, it's used to kickstart a cycle. You do gain impressive size and strength, but it's supposed to be mostly water weight. If this is true, why use it??? Why not just stick to injectables???

 

[Vageta]

Dbol is never necessary on any cycle however it is a great addition if used properly. It is not however a beginner steroid but unfortunately it seems to be their first choice. It's an adrogen so it's usually accompanied by estrogen related sides, especially water retention. In new users these water gains are somehow confused with muscle so when the Dbol stops the water dissapears. Unfortunately the uninformed "assume" this is muscle and claim they've lost their gains.

Also the short half-life of the drug makes it difficult to come off of alone unless you understand how to taper and use clomid correctly. When used with a long ester injectable this downside is made mute since these injectables are self tapering.

Simple answer is Dbol is a great drug to use if you know what you're doing. Unless you are lucky enough to not be effected by estrogen related side effects you should run it with a strong anti-e to minimize bloating. Also you should taper yourself off of the drug over a 2-3 week period while administering clomid to kickstart the HPTA.

If you do your homework Dbol alone can be a nice cycle, especially for steroid virgins. Unfortunately most virgins jump into a Dbol cycle first then ask questions and ultimately they do lose all of their gains. This is the users faults and hardly the drugs' though they usually feel the need to come on here and bash Dbol as a worthless drug.

I don't think the bodybuilders of the 80's would agree with that statement.

 

[GaryWary]

dbol is the king of oral steroids. No other oral steroid delivers like dbol. It is also wonderfully cheap. Gains are keepable. You can keep hold of 50% or more what you gain on dbol.

 

[Fish]

Vageta, nice post.


I will add Dbol is great. For me it is not a "cycle" thing. I use dbol in the pre workout fashion. Gives a great pump, and strength. It is cheap, and is perfect with any test.

But beware, it is also fake much of the time.

Good luck.

 

[acneman]

DBOL was and is the breakfast of champions

but i never use it

i dont use any oral steroid

 

[serge]

Dbol is never necessary on any cycle however it is a great addition if used properly. It is not however a beginner steroid but unfortunately it seems to be their first choice. It's an adrogen so it's usually accompanied by estrogen related sides, especially water retention. In new users these water gains are somehow confused with muscle so when the Dbol stops the water dissapears. Unfortunately the uninformed "assume" this is muscle and claim they've lost their gains.

Also the short half-life of the drug makes it difficult to come off of alone unless you understand how to taper and use clomid correctly. When used with a long ester injectable this downside is made mute since these injectables are self tapering.

Simple answer is Dbol is a great drug to use if you know what you're doing. Unless you are lucky enough to not be effected by estrogen related side effects you should run it with a strong anti-e to minimize bloating. Also you should taper yourself off of the drug over a 2-3 week period while administering clomid to kickstart the HPTA.

If you do your homework Dbol alone can be a nice cycle, especially for steroid virgins. Unfortunately most virgins jump into a Dbol cycle first then ask questions and ultimately they do lose all of their gains. This is the users faults and hardly the drugs' though they usually feel the need to come on here and bash Dbol as a worthless drug.

I don't think the bodybuilders of the 80's would agree with that statement.

"It's an adrogen so it's usually accompanied by estrogen related sides, especially water retention."

dboll is an adrogen, but then so are all the other anabolic steroids, needless to say its not the adrogenic properties that induce water retension (fina is strogly androgenic too you know)

"Also the short half-life of the drug makes it difficult to come off of alone unless you understand how to taper and use clomid correctly. When used with a long ester injectable this downside is made mute since these injectables are self tapering."

its short half life makes its ideal to come off, THE LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO IS TAPER YOUR CYCLES, your recovery cant and wont start untill ALL synthetic hormones are out of your system, so you want to use the fast acting gear towards the end of your cycles to initiate clomid therapy right after

"Simple answer is Dbol is a great drug to use if you know what you're doing. Unless you are lucky enough to not be effected by estrogen related side effects you should run it with a strong anti-e to minimize bloating. Also you should taper yourself off of the drug over a 2-3 week period while administering clomid to kickstart the HPTA. "

SIMPLIFICATION: take arimidex or femera and all estrogen related sides go bye bye, ONCE AGAIN--NO TAPERING, NO TAPERING, NO TAPERING, tapering is compramising your gains and recovery

Dboll alone cycles are a WASTE

When its all said and done, dboll is NOT necesary for cycling but is a good addition. On the first cycle one would make just as good of the gains without the use of dboll and just running test and deca, or better test and eq

 

[supertech69]

I always use d-bol in my cycles. It's a good kick start and it gives you incresed strenght which in turn builds more muscle along w/the test or whatever else you use durring the cycle. I like to taper mine at the end of the cycle then bridge for 3 weeks on a low dose to clear the test from my system and use clomid therapy effectively. In conclusion I would say it is definately not neccessary but, it's a great stack & can be effective as a stand alone if you know what you are doing. There's my $.10 my $.02 is free!

 

[Japanese machine]

personally i hate dbol, it gives me the worst estro fat deposits, even at 25mgs/ed w/.25 ari. i am very sensitive to estro conversion, yup sucks to be me.

 

[MadCow1]

Typical EF Mentality

its short half life makes its ideal to come off, THE LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO IS TAPER YOUR CYCLES, your recovery cant and wont start untill ALL synthetic hormones are out of your system, so you want to use the fast acting gear towards the end of your cycles to initiate clomid therapy right after

SIMPLIFICATION: take arimidex or femera and all estrogen related sides go bye bye, ONCE AGAIN--NO TAPERING, NO TAPERING, NO TAPERING, tapering is compramising your gains and recovery

Dboll alone cycles are a WASTE

Dude - having known tons of guys who ran dbol alone very successfully over the past 2 decades (including myself on many occasions), I can say that your theoretical knowledge doesn't add up to a pile of dogshit.

I never knew of anyone who disliked dbol until I started reading the internet boards a while back. I can only surmise that it's comprised of those who've never tried dbol alone, those who quote popular rhetoric, and those who are imcompetent. Judging from the roid users I see in the gyms these days I'd say it's the incompetence.

I guess human physiology has changed radically in the past decade making dbol wasteful and ineffective. However, dbol was the drug for which the taper was invented. There is much truth that it has been misapplied to other longer acting substances. The bottom line is that everyone who keeps dbol gains tapers the drug down and those who lose it all generally listen to posts like your own and go from 35mg daily to nothing. The correlation is undeniable.

Many injectibles are selftapering - this is why guys like the gains from them as it's done for them due to long halflife in the body. It is unnecessary to self taper as the drug will taper itself. This is not the case for a short acting oral like dbol. Look at those newbies that have used test suspension (I've known of several but difficult to find as many want infrequent injects so this is the antithesis). Does this mean that test sucks? No, it means that suspension is fast acting and out of the body quickly whereas with other esters attached the self tapering in the body allows gains to be kept - there is no difference in test, just length of action as dictated by ester.

So if one wanted to ensure higher gain retention for faster acting substances - they could be stacked with longer esters for autotaper or self tapered.

This can go back and forth forever but the simple facts are that dbol alone has worked well for decades and those who have successfully employed it taper the dosage down at the end of the cycle. The fact that the new wave of internet boys have finally realized that tapering long acting injectibles is somewhat needless and have now misapplied that theory to short acting compounds and subsequently dbol only cycles become waste is a testament of their rhetoric and the incompetence of users.

Sorry for my rant but dbol has worked since the 1950's and only in the past few years has it been maligned by a bunch of hacks.

To original poster - no it's not necessary. People just use it because once they start their first injects they want to see some gains. They don't want to wait for the longer acting roids to buildup in their bodies. So maybe "kickstart" should be called a "now and later".

 

[serge]

Re: Typical EF Mentality

Dude - having known tons of guys who ran dbol alone very successfully over the past 2 decades (including myself on many occasions), I can say that your theoretical knowledge doesn't add up to a pile of dogshit.

I never knew of anyone who disliked dbol until I started reading the internet boards a while back. I can only surmise that it's comprised of those who've never tried dbol alone, those who quote popular rhetoric, and those who are imcompetent. Judging from the roid users I see in the gyms these days I'd say it's the incompetence.

I guess human physiology has changed radically in the past decade making dbol wasteful and ineffective. However, dbol was the drug for which the taper was invented. There is much truth that it has been misapplied to other longer acting substances. The bottom line is that everyone who keeps dbol gains tapers the drug down and those who lose it all generally listen to posts like your own and go from 35mg daily to nothing. The correlation is undeniable.

Many injectibles are selftapering - this is why guys like the gains from them as it's done for them due to long halflife in the body. It is unnecessary to self taper as the drug will taper itself. This is not the case for a short acting oral like dbol. Look at those newbies that have used test suspension (I've known of several but difficult to find as many want infrequent injects so this is the antithesis). Does this mean that test sucks? No, it means that suspension is fast acting and out of the body quickly whereas with other esters attached the self tapering in the body allows gains to be kept - there is no difference in test, just length of action as dictated by ester.

So if one wanted to ensure higher gain retention for faster acting substances - they could be stacked with longer esters for autotaper or self tapered.

This can go back and forth forever but the simple facts are that dbol alone has worked well for decades and those who have successfully employed it taper the dosage down at the end of the cycle. The fact that the new wave of internet boys have finally realized that tapering long acting injectibles is somewhat needless and have now misapplied that theory to short acting compounds and subsequently dbol only cycles become waste is a testament of their rhetoric and the incompetence of users.

Sorry for my rant but dbol has worked since the 1950's and only in the past few years has it been maligned by a bunch of hacks.

To original poster - no it's not necessary. People just use it because once they start their first injects they want to see some gains. They don't want to wait for the longer acting roids to buildup in their bodies. So maybe "kickstart" should be called a "now and later".

i read through and here are my original points:

1) dboll alone is a waste of time, it will generate gains but nothing compared to when its stacked with test or tren

2) tapering is a waste of time, since your body will not start to produce its own testosterone untill ALL OF THE SYNTHETIC SHIT IS OUT OF YOUR SYSTEM

3) long acting gear should be dumped out of the cycle 2-3 weeks before the cycle ends, and replaced with fast acting gear, that way you dont have to wait 2-3 weeks after the last shot to start the clomid therapy

4) "The fact that the new wave of internet boys have finally realized that tapering long acting injectibles is somewhat needless and have now misapplied that theory to short acting compounds and subsequently dbol only cycles become waste is a testament of their rhetoric and the incompetence of users."

i never said that short acting compounds were useless, as a matter of fact all i use is short acting stuff, much more control; although also more discomfort

5) "Does this mean that test sucks? No, it means that suspension is fast acting and out of the body quickly whereas with other esters attached the self tapering in the body allows gains to be kept - there is no difference in test, just length of action as dictated by ester."

NO SHIT, SHERLOCK

 

[Wisea$$]

D-Bol Makes me Happy!

D-bol may not be necessary but it sure as hell makes me one happy camper when I take them.

There is something folks on this board seem to forget.. Everyone's body reacts different to different drugs.
For example; I can gain a lot more mass from less androgenic drugs.. Test works for me but Deca and D-bol work Big-Time. I think it boils down to what works for you.
Really the only way to find out is spend the time and money to basically test things on yourself and find out what you respond to and go from there..

 

[MadCow1]

ONCE AGAIN--NO TAPERING, NO TAPERING, NO TAPERING, tapering is compramising your gains and recovery

Dboll alone cycles are a WASTE

The points I had issue with are these. I agree with the extensive caveats you stated above but your original post presented a much more black and white issue against dbol and tapering - hence my own post and explanations.

 

[GaryWary]

Re: Typical EF Mentality

Dude - having known tons of guys who ran dbol alone very successfully......

....acting roids to buildup in their bodies. So maybe "kickstart" should be called a "now and later".

Top notch excellent post.

 

[serge]

The points I had issue with are these. I agree with the extensive caveats you stated above but your original post presented a much more black and white issue against dbol and tapering - hence my own post and explanations.

why would you disagree with No tapering? do you honestly think that by reducing the dose your body will gradually upregulate its own test production? your body looks at things at a very black and white perspective, if there is more hormones present it will cut out its own, so as long as there is andogeneous hormones present in your body you will not start recovering, so what is the point of tapering? will smaller dose of gear make you gain anything once your body adjusted to the full dose? NO........... instead you will gradually begin to loose muscle, just like when you stop taking long acting gear, its still in you but you are no longer growing, for that reason you want to switch over to fast acting stuff and enter the clomid therapy right after your last shot

dboll alone will not yeild much of keepable gains, you will gain no doubt but why not add some injectible right in there?

 

[Gambler]

Mad Cow

Could you post what you think a well planned/tapered d-bol only cycle would look like? (including post cycle therapy)

 

[plornive]

I am a newbie planning a 12 week (10 weeks of injection) test enth/cyp 400mg + eq 400mg cycle. What is the minimum dose and duration I could take dbol that will still do an effective job of kickstarting my cycle? I am 165 lbs 8% bf (will be when I start).

In this case, should I taper the dbol as my exogenous test levels rise? How much muscle mass will dbol add to my cycle? I have decided I just want concentrate on mass, with less regard to staying lean. Thanks.

 

[Vageta]

dboll alone will not yeild much of keepable gains

Please explain to me the scientific explanation between gains that are unkeepable versus gains that are keepable? I didn't think so. Muscle is muscle regardless if it is created by Test, Dbol, Fina or Anadrol. You act as if your body keeps tabs on what part of the muscle you've just gained came from what drug. So long as you haven't passed your natural genetic limit then all gains should be viewed as keepable. The very reason you think that Dbol gains can't be kept is the very reason both I and Madcow are arguing with you. If you come off of Dbol cold turkey with no longer lasting androgens in your system then clomid alone won't be able to spur your HPTA in to action fast enough to retain the gains you've manated to create.

Dbol has a 4.5 hour halflife which means a single dose in the morning will mostly be out of your system by night time, especially a smaller dose. When cycling the Dbol you generally take multiple doses throughout the day to keep blood levels stable, however when it's time to come off of the Dbol you switch a morning only dose. This small dose will be enough to prevent muscle catabolism and will slowly taper off during the day. By the time you go to bed most if not all of it will be out of your system and while you sleep your HPTA will slowly begin to fire up again. The addition of clomid will make this process even faster and more efficient.

Also no one is arguing that Dbol stacked with test is better. Any kindergartner can deduce this simple logic. The only fact I'm arguing is that Dbol CAN be used effectively alone. You don't need test or other drugs to "solidify" gains. This whole solidify gains mentality is a farce. It's simply a crutch for those who can't figure out how to properly come off of a cycle so they have to rely on other drugs to help them out.

If what you said was true then I guess all of the bodybuilders from the past including Arnold, Zane, Draper, etc... are figments of our imagination as they were huge proponents of Dbol and there wasn't even clomid back then. How did they keep their gains? Tapering their Dbol doses so that their HPTA would slowly come back naturally plain and simple.

 

[NFG123]

I am a newbie planning a 12 week (10 weeks of injection) test enth/cyp 400mg + eq 400mg cycle. What is the minimum dose and duration I could take dbol that will still do an effective job of kickstarting my cycle? I am 165 lbs 8% bf (will be when I start).

In this case, should I taper the dbol as my exogenous test levels rise? How much muscle mass will dbol add to my cycle? I have decided I just want concentrate on mass, with less regard to staying lean. Thanks.

a) minimum dose of dbol you can take in a cycle is 0 mg ED
b) 4-6 weeks for dbol if you use it
c) dont taper the dbol esp if you are using oil based Test esters
d) since you are already adding test en and eq, i would guess dbol might give you another 2 lbs of lean mass at 25 mg ED for 5 weeks -- after water weight loss
e) you dont need dbol on this cycle if you havent already figured that out, i think for a first timeer considering your bf and weight -- i dont know your height -- you will make wonderful gains already and should not use > 1 g gear a week on a first cycle ..

NFG

 

[MadCow1]

Re: Mad Cow

Could you post what you think a well planned/tapered d-bol only cycle would look like? (including post cycle therapy)

If using dbol alone and never using roids before I wound run a pyramid (no flames - keep reading). Pyramids are not the most efficient way to use steroids but utilizing one with dbol will give you some quick feedback on how your body is likely to respond to future cycles and dosage amounts. For instance many can gain great on 15-20mg's yet lots of guys advocate 30mg+ for newbs. A pyramid will allow you to find your sweet spot where you can gain well without using an excess of steroid. Using that for future reference, if you were able to gain well on 20mg of dbol alone, I'd say that 300mg of test or deca would also work well for you where some people might need 500mg of test to see good results. I'm of the conservative school where I like to make solid steady progress - if you are the meathead type that needs to have 25lbs. on your frame yesterday than just start at 30mg and seek some therapy as you probably have some issues.

A pyramid allows you to slowly ratchet up the dosage until you are at the point where good progress is being made. I found that I didn't need more than 20mg ED to see very solid results - 25mg worked better and 30mg was a bit of a waste for me.

Anyway so that would be the beginning -

Start with 15mg or 20mg depending upon your size (under 180 go with 15). Wait for 7 days and see the response. If needed up it another 5mg. Increases can be made every 5 days till you hone in. If you aren't seeing any results by 30mg ED then your roids are fake or you are doing everything possible wrong as dbol is relatively strong and I haven't met any newbie that didn't gain well on that dosage. I'd imagine 20-25mg will be the right spot for most guys.

Now that clomid is out (it wasn't used in the old days nor have I ever used it with a dbol cycle) this changes my traditional taper a bit.

lets say using 25mg and then coming down to zero without clomid:

25,20,20,20,20,15,15,15,15,10,10,10,10,5,5,5,0,5,0,5

From 10mg and on I'd dose it all in the AM. Basically, most of the water would be gone by the 5mg point and strength would stay the same. I'd run 4-6 weeks with no problems and little losses afterward even out to 6 months off. With experience you can customize it - shorter cycles had shorter tapers etc..

With clomid that obviously changes things a bit. I haven't done any experimentation (did enough before and was happy with my results). Most guys seem to drop from 30mg or 25mg and lose a significant amount. I'd taper to at least 15mg slowly with all morning dosings. Maybe down to 10mg. Then begin clomid. To be honest, if I was to run the cycle now - I'd probably use the above and then do clomid afterward. 5 days isn't crippling your gains or recovery and HPTA should be beginning to come back or let's say be less supressed as the amounts in your system are decreased to a point where your body isn't always at max levels. I've just never seen anybody have a problem with this method yet everybody on EF with their 30mg ED to clomid seems to really suffer.

Obviously training volume is paired down post cycle and core lifts are focused on until recovery is near complete (4 weeks generally for me). Assistance work should be light or focused on core weakness areas that were targeted during the cycle. I could write forever on that.

My thoughts anyway.

 

[caiza]

madcow1 whats your fav brand of d-bol?

 

[Realgains]

No d-bol is not necessary, nor is any 17 aa roid, uless you are a competitive power lifter that doesn't want to add much body weight....then there may be a place for Halo and anavar.

There is no doubt that d-bol and others orals such as anadrol, are extremely effective AAS howver they are quite hard on the liver and really mess up ones cholesterol profile, especially hdl.

For the vast majority of bodybuilders 17aa roid can and should be avoided. If you want the cycle to start off with a bang then do a loading dose of injectables and or use tren. It is pretty hard to beat a test/tren cycle.....who the heck needs d-bol.

The only time I ever recommend d-bol is perhaps for a two week cycle.

 

[MadCow1]

madcow1 whats your fav brand of d-bol?

I haven't used dbol in over 7 years. When I did use it I thought the Russian ones were pretty solid and decently available/cheap towards the end. However I've heard countless times that the original little blue ones <Ciba I think?> were the best. Like everything else (parabolan, masteron, turinbol, etc..) surrounded in myth.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Which cycle is the MOST effective for a First Cycle- Test/EQ?? Or Test/Dbol??

 

[Vageta]

Depends on your goals but I'd have to say Test/Dbol is excellent for mass gains. EQ is a great drug as well but to get the same type of mass gains you'd have to take a larger dose. However if you have trouble eating a lot of calories then EQ is a great choice due to the hunger stimulating effects.

At any rate you'll get arguments for both but Test/Dbol is classic and hard to go wrong with. Just make sure you've got your anti-e's lined up before you start the cycle.

 

[Fish]

Which cycle is the MOST effective for a First Cycle- Test/EQ?? Or Test/Dbol??

Test/Dbol... for two resons. One is more size and stength. Someone will tell you "less permant", but I disagree. Unless you are bigger than your natural limit, you can keep your gains. Just don't "pussy out" when you start getting weaker. When you come off, the gym becomes much more work, and much less fun. Just stick through that period and it will get better. Second Dbol is much cheaper than EQ.

Now next... According to what I have read, you might want to consider Fina. It too is cheap, easy to come by. I am behind the game on this, and just about to start my first cycle with Fina in it, so no personal exp with it. Though it seems to be very well loved.

Best luck
Fish

 

[Gambler]

Thanks

Definitely goes against the grain of what most are suggesting and I like that. Always good to have different experiences shared.

 

[RussianBro]

in my opinion test/dbol works well for first cycle... it definitely kicked my ass...