Could somebody PLEEASE tell me the difference between training for hypertrophy and ..

[SteelWeaver]

... pre-contest training?

I assume the former would work well if framed much like Corn's old-school programme, and along the same sort of lines as the routine MS put on the short, intense thread, or like needsize's 5x5 routine - heavy compound moves, full-body type workouts, fairly low reps, periodised for higher later? (need more details here)

But then what do you do pre-contest? I know the light weight high rep stuff is a good way to lose lots of muscle, but surely basic compound moves with some assistance moves, all as heavy as possible in a 5-8 rep range, split schedule, is the way to go? But isn't that just the same as the above except for the split schedule?

Officially now confused. Wasn't before, but am now.

 

[sysopt]

I believe training should remain the same. Maybe you're gonna have to lower the poundage because of the restricted calories. The only differences should be in your diet.

 

[Nelson Montana]

All training is hyperthrophy training unless it's powerlifting type work where the bones and tendons are taking the majority of the stress. sysopt is right in that the only difference in pre-contest prep is diet.

But I will add one other thing:

The now "old fashioned" concept of using higher reps and lighter weights is looking better and better all the time. "Pump" style training may not technically burn fat and add definition , as once thought, but it will force glucose into the muscles, keeping them full and preventing carb calories from being stored. It's always amused me that people are afraid of pump training for fear of losing muscle and then they go and do aerobics. (?)

 

[Nelson Montana]

Spats, You're touchng on a few different things here and I'm not exactly sure what you're asking but I'll try to address some points. But as far as the data, please don't ask me to start doing searches and referencing journals. I barely have time to write a few posts. Anyone can do their own search on this if they like. (And find studies to verify both sides of the argument, I'm sure).

Okay. it sounds like you probably have a lot of fast twitch, white fiber muscles which is why you respond to heavy training. Since I don't know you and can't see exactly what you're doing or not doing, I can only speculate. You say you've never seen a powerlifter not experience hypertrophy. Sure, and I've never seen a bodybuilder not get stronger. But it's two different skills and they are best achieved with different training methods and within these methods is a lt of leeway depending on body type, as you yourself an attest. I will say this. I've seen some powerlifters who were amazingly strong who didn't have much of a physique. Now don't start citing examples of guys who do, I'm just saying strength and musculature may share some aspects but they are not entirely related.

As far as your last comment, I'm not sure what you're getting at but once the stress gets too extreme, yes, the bones and tendons will come more into play, which is why weight traning is so good for women. It strengthens the skeletal system and increases bone density, thus preventing osteoporosis. Not to mention, women tend to have more red, slow twitch muscle fiber which resonds better to higher reps.

What does any of this have to do with pre-contest training?

 

[SteelWeaver]

If you haven't been following Steel's threads, then I can see why it doesn't make sense for the topic. Her current training involves set and reps out the wazooo, working out for what was cited as just under 2 hours to reach failure, etc...

I'm saying that there's a CHANCE, that she responds better, in terms of growth, to "PL style" training, which I mean to be heavy weight, low rep work also incorporating speed. Unfortunately, there's only one way to find out...try it.

Hey, now, hang on - not 2 hours to reach failure! I almost never work out for much more than 1.5 hours, and that would only be on leg day, and I DO reach failure fairly quickly, it's just that I then CONTINUE with numerous sets and reps and drop sets and forced reps and rest-pause etc (on heavy days) all to what feels like failure but may, now that I think about it, be simply fatigue .... I dunno - I'm working on this part.

As for PL style training and if it works for me - well, we have our date

Nelson, on the diet I'm on, I would have to say there is absolutely ZERO chance of the carbs I'm eating being stored - believe me.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Just to clear up exactly what I have been doing in terms of set numbers (but going down 25-30% from this week):

Back: 14
Traps: 3
Quads: 10-12
Hams: 9
Bi's: 9
Tri's: 9
Chest: 12
Abs: 4 (2-3x/week)
Calves: 6-12
Shoulders (front, side, rear delts): 12
Forearms: 6

Now, about pre-comp. training - carry on

 

[Intenceman]

Pre- contest is only really different in that you are focusing primarily on shedding all excess fat and getting cut-up as well as working on posing, etc. Training intensity should still be as high as before except for the last couple of weeks.

 

[MS]

Pre-contest is also a little different (especially the last 4-6 weeks) if you are increasing your cardio. MOST cardio BBs do precomp is very leg-intensive, whether it's sprints or longer lower intensity walking, biking, stepping.... This is essentially extra wear and tear that you ideally compensate for by reducing your gym workload. That's why I think you're doing too much for legs. The point of weight training (especially below 12%bf for women) is really just to maintain muscle rather than hypertrophy. So you want to be extra careful not to overtain in this low calorie low fat state. Overtraining is purely catabolic without adequate calories and recovery time.

This has implications for people following periodization programs. You prolly should line up your periodization so that your last heavy sets/max effort micro and mesocycles are no closer than 2-3 weeks out from your comp, and then you hit your lighter, higher rep work for those last weeks. In other words, you don't want to be trying to set new 5 rep maxs in your last few weeks. But if you are NOT periodizing, then it doesn't really matter. The question of whether or not YOU (as in SteelWeaver) should change what you do precomp is meaningless unless we address the question of whether or not your training program makes sense even when you're NOT precomp dieting! So are you effectively training for hypertrophy?? It's hard to tell with beginners. I made my best ever muscle gains as a beginner doing pump classes! This doesn't mean I could still make gains NOW by doing pump classes, or that this was the best way for me to make gains.. If your training program is based purely on what you've seen other people who "look like bodybuilders" doing in the gym, then there is a good chance you've fallen into the old trap of taking on the volume of training that only someone juiced could truly grow on. You may be able to DO the workouts, but they may not be optimal for someone who is trying to grow/diet without AAS. Truth is, it's proabaly not optimal for them either, but they can still make gains without an optimal training program. TRAIN SMARTER NOT HARDER.

Having said all of that, losing fat is now your main priority. So do whatever it takes, but please try to minimize overtraining. More reps and more time in the gym does not=more intensity. By definition, the longer you train, the lower the intensity.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Mmmm - thank you. This helps a bit, but MS, you have a good point:

"But if you are NOT periodizing, then it doesn't really matter. The question of whether or not YOU (as in SteelWeaver) should change what you do precomp is meaningless unless we address the question of whether or not your training program makes sense even when you're NOT precomp dieting! So are you effectively training for hypertrophy??"

Lord knows!!! Like I mentioned before, everything I've learnt about weight training and nutrition has been from books, magazines and the internet, and some helpful e-mails. I've done the ISSA personal trainer course (just haven't finished the exam completely - been too busy dieting), I've read the ASCM personal trainer textbook, I've read a ton of other weight training and physiology type books, nutrition books, reasearch papers/abstracts etc etc etc. And I've designed all my own programmes based what I've learnt. I've watched videos for form, read treatises on squats and deads, occasionally had gym personnel check my form ... I am a loner, independent and stubborn, the type of person who refuses to ask directions when lost, and WILL work it out myself - it just takes me longer

But now ... FINALLY, I have a REAL trainer who appears to know EXACTLY what she's doing, and is nice too Whoo hoo!

I used to periodise - heavy, low reps for 6-8 weeks, then higher for the same kind of time. Volume (ie, set number) has pretty much always stayed the same, and has decreased over the last year or so. Tried Fred Hatfield's ABC method on a 5-day cycle. Then I started doing W6's heavy light type workouts and stopped doing 6-week cycles - just varied movements now and then, with the big compounds always as core. I've almost always done a 4 day split, usually one muscle group once a week, but I change the split around too.

So, I dunno - my routines are pretty much textbook perfect I think, but textbooks are often wrong

Strangely, this time around, despite lower calories than last time, I DO appear to have more energy - either the reduced volume is helping, or I'm not far enough into the new plan, the LeptiGen is working, or my body has adapted to a lower level of calories .... Either way, I almost have my 6-pack

 

[SteelWeaver]

Thanks spatts. Yeah, I've read these before. The linear method is the one all my weight training books outline, basically. I just never went down to doing singles - stuck with the 4-6, 6-8, 8-10 and occasionally 12 rep range. The first time I ever came into contact with the idea of "heavy", "moderate" and "light" workouts was my ISSA coursebook with Fred Hatfield. Then I read W6's outline of it. I had never thought going lighter then heavier, then lighter/faster, etc could be useful - I thought one should just go progressively heavier and heavier and heavier over the mesocycle. But I never really made good strength gains that way.

I'm mentioning all this because the light/heavy idea is *sort of* conjugated - after reading some of the PL stuff here, I started trying to move the bar with speed on light days. I haven't experimented with training styles/systems a whole lot this year because I just haven't had the energy. I wanted to try the matrix system, intended to try Corn's old school routine after my comp (but chickened out because I ... well, I guess it was just too different )

So now I just don't know WHAT to do. I'm confused about how hard to work. I'm used to lifting the weight until I can't lift it anymore. Now I dunno if I should go all the way to failure, if I should be leaving a couple of reps in me, WHAT I should be doing. All I know is I have 4 weeks of hell to drag myself through and I don't want to lose any more muscle than I already have to sacrifice. So if anybody can tell me what training style I should be employing to maintain muscle, then fire away.

And while I'm on the topic of pre-comp training, is it normal to end up crying at some point in just about every workout in the last few weeks pre-comp? I wanna know if anyone else has experienced this, or if I'm just a pussy.

MS - what about the rest? If you think it's too much for legs - well OK, but the rest is average? A lot?


Oh, and I meant the NSCA textbook, not ASCM.