Competitive Athlete and HRT

[swaglantern]

Hello...first time poster. - long read.

I actually got turned onto this website while doing a search of testosterone therapy etc..

I'm 33 -I race bicycles (at a high level).....I know...everyone here is pretty much a body builder or in that vein - but maybe you guys can relate to recovery after extreme efforts. The last season or so my motivation has went out the window along with my libido (which is the main reason I went to the doctor - wife poking me with a stick). I have had a severe lethargic disposition sweep over me and have not been able to recover anymore from interval workouts or long days in the saddle. Sometimes my legs will stay sore or "hollow" for upwards of 48 hours. - this never used to happen to me. I payed pretty close attention to my heart rates and training schedule and just didn't feel like I was over training.

Went to the doc - told him the above story in more detail and he decided to give me a full blood test. Called me with the results and mentioned that although my testosterone fell within the "normal" range he thought it was too low for a competitive athlete that trains as much as I do for competitions etc.. Mentioned that it was 300 or something. He has sent me to an Urologist to see about treating low testosterone I guess? I really didn't ask anymore because at the time I didn't know squat about testosterone. Well obviously i have done much research since then...and have found out quite a bit of fascinating info.

SO - my appt. with the Urologist is in a few weeks.....Am I going to be put on testosterone therapy? Does the Urologist follow the advice of my doc.....or will I be re-evaluated again? I'm just trying to get a feel for what to expect.
IF I do get on test...what kind of affect is simple HRT treatment going to have on libido and athletic performance? Am I even allowed to get HRT treatment at 33?

 

[lanky]

Am i going to be put on testosterone therapy?

This depends on many factors..one test does not make a valid diagnosis of hypogonadism..there can be a variety of causes such as hypothalmus problems, overtraining, testicular varicocele,,etc..list is endless..you will most likely be put through a questionaire of your past medical history(if you allready did not do so at the urologist) will help pick out possible causes...


Does the urologist follow the advise of your doc?

The urologist is a specialist in his/her field, and will most likely decide how to practice his/her own medicine without much input from your primary care physician.


What kind of effect is HRT going to have on libido and athletic performance?

HRT therapy is used to replace testosterone levels back into the normal range (300-1200ng/dl)..on average a healthy 25-35 year old male is in the 500-700 range...As for libido..if your low testosterone is the primary cause then there may be an increase when testosterone is raised...same with athletic performance..raised compared to hypogonadic levels

Am i even allowed to go on HRT at 33?

Yes, HRT is used for a valid medical purpose for hypogonadism in all age groups(unless comorbidities or other health problems are contraindicated.)


Are you a long distance cyclist. or is this a sprint track sort of thing.?...also it is common for cyclist to suffer from erectile dysfunction and decreased libido more often than non cyclist because of the thought that the constant pressure from the seat can decrease circulation and put pressure on nerves in that area..just food for thought.

If in fact you are prescribed testosterone you will have some treatment options. testosterone is available in injection, transdermal patches, gels, or buccal delivered(not commonly used)

each delivery option has its benifits and drawbacks,,,, good luck with your future bloodwork.

feel free to PM me any time.

 

[swaglantern]

Hey lanky thanks for the response. My urologist appointment is in August as a referral from my general practitioner - so I guess basically I'll just have to wait and see. I hope there aren't too many more bloodtests for the sole reason that I'm not sure how many my insurance will cover...HAH. I was surprised at how much those cost...but then again it's good to know why things are wrong.

I road race, and race mountain bikes. These are all endurance events 2 hours or longer. Training sessions can last from 2 - 6 hours per session. 15+ hours a week depending on how I feel.

This website is fascinating to say the least. I actually didn't even know there were medical reasons for testosterone. I thought steroids were for people who were determined to get Arnold big or die trying. Which makes me realize that I in no way want to get big. I would actually like to lose a little weight. HRT therapy isn't going to make me bulk up unless I train that way correct?

Am i going to be put on testosterone therapy?

This depends on many factors..one test does not make a valid diagnosis of hypogonadism..there can be a variety of causes such as hypothalmus problems, overtraining, testicular varicocele,,etc..list is endless..you will most likely be put through a questionaire of your past medical history(if you allready did not do so at the urologist) will help pick out possible causes...


Does the urologist follow the advise of your doc?

The urologist is a specialist in his/her field, and will most likely decide how to practice his/her own medicine without much input from your primary care physician.


What kind of effect is HRT going to have on libido and athletic performance?

HRT therapy is used to replace testosterone levels back into the normal range (300-1200ng/dl)..on average a healthy 25-35 year old male is in the 500-700 range...As for libido..if your low testosterone is the primary cause then there may be an increase when testosterone is raised...same with athletic performance..raised compared to hypogonadic levels

Am i even allowed to go on HRT at 33?

Yes, HRT is used for a valid medical purpose for hypogonadism in all age groups(unless comorbidities or other health problems are contraindicated.)


Are you a long distance cyclist. or is this a sprint track sort of thing.?...also it is common for cyclist to suffer from erectile dysfunction and decreased libido more often than non cyclist because of the thought that the constant pressure from the seat can decrease circulation and put pressure on nerves in that area..just food for thought.

If in fact you are prescribed testosterone you will have some treatment options. testosterone is available in injection, transdermal patches, gels, or buccal delivered(not commonly used)

each delivery option has its benifits and drawbacks,,,, good luck with your future bloodwork.

feel free to PM me any time.

 

[lanky]

no need to wory about getting bulked up like arnold..HRT dosages put testosterone at a normal male range...


You can request a copy of your bloodwork results when you go and have your blood taken at the lab...usually you will have to fill out a form...they will mail you the results. this provides a baseline so you can compare results for the rest of your life especially HDL, LDL, cholesterol,,RBC's, hematocrit, hemoglobin etc..


I know some older folks who carry around their bloodwork in their front pocket with their Readers Digest. lol

 

[thelion2005]

Except for the old folk crack, lanky covered most of the bases. (I'm 62 you young whippersnapper ... and I keep my blood test results on my PC ... LOL)

Your blood test must be very thorough to reveal what is going on with your system. You are putting your body through exhaustive demands. And you are too young to have total test levels so low and libido down. My blood testing is done 3-4 times a year and 22 vials are taken to secure a complete look at all hormone levels and comprehensive levels.

Random comments:
- For your blood testing, in addition to total test, add free test, PSA, estrogen, and thyroid.
- Should you require HRT, the application of a topical will quickly move your levels up. IF this is the problem, you be "cured" quickly. Putting this on each day just becomes a 30 second part of your daily routine.
- Most Drs are not well versed in HRT. Be prepared for your Dr not to be able to answer your questions.
- Learn the difference between cycles (high dosages of a stack of aas taken over a number of weeks) and HRT (low dosage of just test and maybe HGH taken continually).
- Call your insurance and learn their payment policy towards blood testing and prescribed test.

I have been on HRT for a few years and can answer your questions from my experience. I've also done a few cycles and while no expert, I might have some info for you.

My gut reaction is .... very young fit man pushing his body beyond its limits ... has low test and low libido. Maybe you need a long rest?

 

[lanky]

is competitive cycling your source of income?

 

[swaglantern]

is competitive cycling your source of income?

No - I live in the U.S....hahaha

 

[swaglantern]

Thank you...good information. As far as pushing my body beyond it's limits....while that is possible.....it is also very hard to overtrain. Most people cannot even muster the mental strength it would require to actually push your body into a state of overtraining. A bigger problem would be lack of recovery after hard sessions.....but I monitor my Heart rate, and workload pretty close. I felt like I was getting a bit burned out mentally during the season - so I took basically two weeks off with some light riding before talking to the doc...so I know that the body will lose a measurable amount of fitness starting at about week 2....so I thought I would have been pretty rested. It's just hard to say. My doc is an ex marathon runner, and he didn't mention over training....but it is still something for me to think about.

The blood test covered everything from LH to thyroid, and the only thing he mentioned to me was the low testosterone, and made an appointment straight away with a urologist. Mu doctor is pretty open minded though and feels as you do that my testosterone should be higher...but we will see.
I've read where some individual lose testosterone production and have to stay on HRT for the rest of their life. Is this an individual physiological response or will it happen with everyone?

Except for the old folk crack, lanky covered most of the bases. (I'm 62 you young whippersnapper ... and I keep my blood test results on my PC ... LOL)

Your blood test must be very thorough to reveal what is going on with your system. You are putting your body through exhaustive demands. And you are too young to have total test levels so low and libido down. My blood testing is done 3-4 times a year and 22 vials are taken to secure a complete look at all hormone levels and comprehensive levels.

Random comments:
- For your blood testing, in addition to total test, add free test, PSA, estrogen, and thyroid.
- Should you require HRT, the application of a topical will quickly move your levels up. IF this is the problem, you be "cured" quickly. Putting this on each day just becomes a 30 second part of your daily routine.
- Most Drs are not well versed in HRT. Be prepared for your Dr not to be able to answer your questions.
- Learn the difference between cycles (high dosages of a stack of aas taken over a number of weeks) and HRT (low dosage of just test and maybe HGH taken continually).
- Call your insurance and learn their payment policy towards blood testing and prescribed test.

I have been on HRT for a few years and can answer your questions from my experience. I've also done a few cycles and while no expert, I might have some info for you.

My gut reaction is .... very young fit man pushing his body beyond its limits ... has low test and low libido. Maybe you need a long rest?

 

[thelion2005]

"I've read where some individual lose testosterone production and have to stay on HRT for the rest of their life. Is this an individual physiological response or will it happen with everyone?"

IMO ... Individual response under 40 to a great degree. I see a lot of low test with young bb's off cycle.
Over 40 .... I don't think any man or woman escapes the "pause". I probably needed help after 50.

BTW ... I can kill my libido with my definition of overtraining. If I wo too much in a day or two, and don't recover with extra rest, my nervous system shuts down. I get the "jitters" and low level sweats and poor sleep. Libido gone. Comes back with rest.

 

[Zircon]

hey my levels are 490 and im 28...also a bit low.

but my free test seems normal

apparently u shouldnt worry too much about total test...mnore about free test

every body is different...and u may not require a lot of total test...so if ur free test is ok....thats apparnetly more important

as for overtraining...i personally compete at a national level...going pro next year...i def can overtrain...im quite sure extended overtraining will give ur test levels a hit

also look at diet

im following john brardis scrawny to brawny diet...i pick up weight...but i also feel waaaaaaay better

food for thought lol

 

[Zircon]

o yeh another thing

if u compete ur not allowed to do trt...

it depends who will find out of course

if ur epitests stays below 4:1 u should be fine

im not sure if there any other way they can test for exogenous test

id like to hav ur input on that if u know more...

 

[swaglantern]

Yea...I know it's on the banned list - but if I'm not looking to go beyond physiological limits then It probably wouldn't test positive. I have no moral qualms regarding treating an illness - if that is in fact the case. I know more than a few guys who are using the buterols, and the cortico-steroids for breathing, and those are also banned if you do not get a Docs referral to use them. I'm pretty sure that they are not seating it. If you are not competing at the the absolute upper level then USA cycling or NORBA is probably not going to be interested in footing the 2500$$ bill for testing.

o yeh another thing

if u compete ur not allowed to do trt...

it depends who will find out of course

if ur epitests stays below 4:1 u should be fine

im not sure if there any other way they can test for exogenous test

id like to hav ur input on that if u know more...

 

[Zircon]

sure...Im more itnerested for my own sake as well lol

I wonder how it works...as far as I know they dont test your total test or anything, they test your epi/test ratio...above 4:1 and ur screwed right?

So if I were to do trt at a later stage...how much wud one take? 100mg enan won't show up per week? not sure wht the level is.

i wouldnt sweat either. ALl of em juicing

 

[swaglantern]

Well - I'm not too well versed on how they test. But if you go through HRT through a doc - then I'm pretty sure you'll be ok. They are looking for supraphysiological levels. As much as I hate to be jaded - I agree with you. I think 90% of the peloton is on something at one time or another. Tell me how a guy with one testicle is producing enough testosterone to be competitive? Chemotherapy fried all of his glands I'm sure. They probably got him on everything to get going initially. HGH is undetectable.....why wouldn't an athlete be on it? Everyone is 1. either looking for an edge...or 2. Just trying to survive. How can it be fair that a man with asthma can take breathing aids.....but a man with hypogonadism can't take test. Level playing field my arse! hehehe

sure...Im more itnerested for my own sake as well lol

I wonder how it works...as far as I know they dont test your total test or anything, they test your epi/test ratio...above 4:1 and ur screwed right?

So if I were to do trt at a later stage...how much wud one take? 100mg enan won't show up per week? not sure wht the level is.

i wouldnt sweat either. ALl of em juicing

 

[lanky]

its funny how one of the initial thoughts when androgel was in development that it has a low potential for abuse,,,when in fact it is now the perfect route and substance to use for competitive sports in which drug testing is done......testosterone level at 1300 ng/dl one day...then drop the dose down...600ng/dl the next.....perfect........there has been doccumented cases of doctors prescribing androgel at 15G a day(normal dose is usually around 5-7.5g day)

 

[swaglantern]

Androgel was one of the drugs Jesus Manzano (pro cyclist) listed when asked what they took. He also listed about 50 others it seems.. hahha

Anyway. I don't think anything in between 300-1200 (according to most physiological norms as far as humans go) would be "looking for an advantage" - or cheating if you ask me - especially when a person is deficient. But that is my moral opinion. Bodybuilders have been tested in the 10's of thousands..some in the 20's!...This to me is a person hell bent on cheating and gaining an unrealistic unfair advantage...but oh well. If one is looking to get from an ultra low 200 to a normal 800 or so....then I don't see the problem.

its funny how one of the initial thoughts when androgel was in development that it has a low potential for abuse,,,when in fact it is now the perfect route and substance to use for competitive sports in which drug testing is done......testosterone level at 1300 ng/dl one day...then drop the dose down...600ng/dl the next.....perfect........there has been doccumented cases of doctors prescribing androgel at 15G a day(normal dose is usually around 5-7.5g day)

 

[lanky]

Androgel was one of the drugs Jesus Manzano (pro cyclist) listed when asked what they took. He also listed about 50 others it seems.. hahha

Anyway. I don't think anything in between 300-1200 (according to most physiological norms as far as humans go) would be "looking for an advantage" - or cheating if you ask me - especially when a person is deficient. But that is my moral opinion. Bodybuilders have been tested in the 10's of thousands..some in the 20's!...This to me is a person hell bent on cheating and gaining an unrealistic unfair advantage...but oh well. If one is looking to get from an ultra low 200 to a normal 800 or so....then I don't see the problem.

i agree

 

[Zircon]

yeh...question is how do they test for it? As far as I know, they dont care about total test etc...they only care about epitest ratio.

I'm not sure how exogenous test afefcts this ratio - even when it is normal compared to a normal male. Ie if you take enough test enan to keep you at 900, it's not supraphysiological as I understand, yet the T/E ratio might be out the window because you take exogenous test???

THat is how I understood it...they check for skewed T/E ratio, if they find it they pretty much assume you are taking exogenous test (even if its 50mg a week) - and then you're screwed.

In short I'm not sure how a normal trt dose of test (say 100-125mg a week) afefcts the T/E ratio...

 

[swaglantern]

That's a damn good question....and from what I understand - Free test is not an exact science and I could be wrong..but I thought they calculated part of that as a percentage of total test...i.e. a person with overall low test would not have ridiculously high free test....but like I said - I could be totally wrong on this. It also seems that different labs have different "standards".... When was the last time anyone ever got banned because their "free test" was too high? While we are on that subject..they really don't even have an exact test for EPO...anyone 50 and over is auto flagged and then they test further...but you can be on EPO at 42 hematocrit..and probably not raise suspicion. The doping rules are really a bunch of crap.

yeh...question is how do they test for it? As far as I know, they dont care about total test etc...they only care about epitest ratio.

I'm not sure how exogenous test afefcts this ratio - even when it is normal compared to a normal male. Ie if you take enough test enan to keep you at 900, it's not supraphysiological as I understand, yet the T/E ratio might be out the window because you take exogenous test???

THat is how I understood it...they check for skewed T/E ratio, if they find it they pretty much assume you are taking exogenous test (even if its 50mg a week) - and then you're screwed.

In short I'm not sure how a normal trt dose of test (say 100-125mg a week) afefcts the T/E ratio...

 

[Zircon]

lol yeh...well i guess its necessary...but its still ends up being a cat and mouse game of money, instead of dedication and talent.

Ill keep posting onother boards...I think my limited knowledge comes in as to how total test affects epit test ratio....I will do more reading up on epi test ratio and see if i can come up with something

 

[Zircon]

as far as i know free test and total test are unrelated.

U can have someone with low total test and higher free test...and generally the high free test is more important. I stand corrected.

Im also not sure how steroids affect free test...ive heard tbol pushes up free test a lot...which is why for some its popular. not sure if its like this for all steroids or what

 

[kenw]

I am also a competitive road and mountain biker. I'm not sure I agree with your statement that it is difficult to slip into an overtrained state. Read Chris Carmichael's book "The Perfect Ride" to get his input (Lance's trainer - but I'm sure you know that). I have worked with CTS for 3 years and the focus of their method is to ensure that you don't slip into overtraining. They forced me to ride slower than I ever had before, slowly building in interval work of various types. Result: I'm faster, better recovered, and have a better attitude about getting on the bike than when I simply got on every day and rode until my eyes bled.

As for Test, I did a cylce this summer, more to get back some strength lost when I suffered a herniated cervical disk last winter. I can't say it helped my biking any. In fact, I put on a little muscle weight, which may have slowed me down a little. Lets face it - cyclists are generally skinny guys.

Try the test, it won't hurt, but contact CTS or another trainer and put together an organized training cycle. You'll be surprised at the result.

 

[Zircon]

hey...u may be right, im not endurance rider, so it might be different. I have however trained before and find itr useful to take a week off every 3 months or so. aöways come back stronger.

still wondering how test epitest ratio is affected by exog test tho