Clomid and its effects on the HPTA

[Dogfox]

This is for the recent ramblings of a deceased thread in which things got a bit heated.

To all partys:

if you read study his test was 71ng/dl, he then did 5 days of clomid @ 100mgs and followed up 2 weeks later and had 828ng/dl. 2 months later he returned for another follow up and had 301 ng/dl. Then he did 2 more months of clomid. After those 2 months he was at 705ng/dl. Then, going from the graph he had a month where his levels slowly dropped (much less rapidly than before) and his test was around the mid 600s. It appears as if he would have normalized at around 4-500ng/dl after a few more months, of course we cannot be sure but the drop off rate was not very fast.

So basically this guy was pretty much saved from a womens test levels, close to them at least, by clomid. At the time of his clomid ingesting he also took anti depressants, which may or may not have negatively effected his T levels. It is also interesting to note, and this is for Nelson mainly, that according to wiki (sourced twiced) "the single isomer of clomiphine "enclomiphene" under the brand name Androxal is currently under phase 2 trials for use in men" as an alternative to TRT. There are a few other studies citing clomid as effective in restoring Sertoli cell function and reversing isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. For those of you unfamiliar with Sertoli cells they contain FSH receptors and are involved in the maturation of sperm cells.

Would have been nice to have seen an actual discussion on the whole thing rather than a heated debate.

feel free to discuss.

 

[Dogfox]

Would like to add that this isnt an attempt at stirring shit up, or attacking nelson (as previous thread did). Merely, instead, this information should be made accessible to EF members as for first time users or even the experienced one - it is nice, not only to go by opinion and what others say or what a drug or product did for them. But actually see numbers and studys, along with discussions on the topic.
As of recent times clomid and nolva have been hounded on this board for being worthless, instead of this turning into an all out anti SERM board i think its good to provide facts for both sides both OTC and otherwise and then have people decide for themselves.

As clarification, i use a mix of both. Without one of them my PCT is worthless

 

[mr.sagat]

hey bro, I'm old school. Clomid and Nolvadex are all I use. I've never had problems with them and one day will go on to supposedly superior product whenever I feel the need. As it is right now, I have no problem losing gains or recovering so I am not worried...

 

[Dogfox]

hey bro, I'm old school. Clomid and Nolvadex are all I use. I've never had problems with them and one day will go on to supposedly superior product whenever I feel the need. As it is right now, I have no problem losing gains or recovering so I am not worried...

im a nolva guy, stuff feels great. but i also use sustain alpha. idk how it works bc its ingredients are suspect, but it makes my balls huge. for a few hours after administration. A friend of mine actually got his test from 150 to 500 using it. Thats the only reason i added to my "old school" ways.

 

[babushka]

Clomid is the bomb

 

[bren565]

honstly, i didnt get to see the ends of the thread,but legit, this is 2 times, this thread willbe the 3rd, i say we relax, and talk about pussy or a nice rare steak... something we all like, before more pissing matches start... over whether clomid has any use anymore in bbing.

 

[Unrest]

I created that thread to get a healthy discussion on pros/cons and who runs what, at what doses and for how long and what results did you get with either Drugs or supplements, it blew up into a heated argument/debate which wasnt my intention! Hopefully this will be more civilised!

Mmmmm steak and pussy two of my favourite things

 

[bren565]

I created that thread to get a healthy discussion on pros/cons and who runs what, at what doses and for how long and what results did you get with either Drugs or supplements, it blew up into a heated argument/debate which wasnt my intention! Hopefully this will be more civilised!

Mmmmm steak and pussy two of my favourite things

lmao thanks for the laiugh... lol

and yeah thats the second time tical has gone at nelson, which is why i tried to agreewit both...
nelson hates being undermined and disrispected, due to his involvement in the community and experience, and tical.. lol tical..hes an intelligent guy he just has it out for nelson which is the problem.. i started the last thread, they butted heads harder.

 

[Unrest]

I didnt wanna say to much incase I got banned lol
I could see both viewpoints and they both seem like smart blokes.. Cant believe it was deleted though I was gunna re read it for a laugh

 

[pavlenko]

clomid, nolvadex and hcg is what I use for my PCT. However after my PCT which ends in a couple of days i will be trying this phytoserms-347 and log it...hopefully this will be a great addition to my pct.

 

[skaman007]

clomid, nolvadex and hcg is what I use for my PCT. However after my PCT which ends in a couple of days i will be trying this phytoserms-347 and log it...hopefully this will be a great addition to my pct.

why do you use both clomid and nolva together?

 

[Nelson Montana]

This is for the recent ramblings of a deceased thread in which things got a bit heated.

To all partys:

if you read study his test was 71ng/dl, he then did 5 days of clomid @ 100mgs and followed up 2 weeks later and had 828ng/dl. 2 months later he returned for another follow up and had 301 ng/dl. Then he did 2 more months of clomid. After those 2 months he was at 705ng/dl. Then, going from the graph he had a month where his levels slowly dropped (much less rapidly than before) and his test was around the mid 600s. It appears as if he would have normalized at around 4-500ng/dl after a few more months, of course we cannot be sure but the drop off rate was not very fast.

So basically this guy was pretty much saved from a womens test levels, close to them at least, by clomid. At the time of his clomid ingesting he also took anti depressants, which may or may not have negatively effected his T levels. It is also interesting to note, and this is for Nelson mainly, that according to wiki (sourced twiced) "the single isomer of clomiphine "enclomiphene" under the brand name Androxal is currently under phase 2 trials for use in men" as an alternative to TRT. There are a few other studies citing clomid as effective in restoring Sertoli cell function and reversing isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. For those of you unfamiliar with Sertoli cells they contain FSH receptors and are involved in the maturation of sperm cells.

Would have been nice to have seen an actual discussion on the whole thing rather than a heated debate.

feel free to discuss.

Shit, I'm still recovering from yesterday's monkeyfuck.

Let me say this right from the start. This debate requires A LOT of understanding. People see a cut and paste study and they immediately think "Ooh! Proof!" Well, it is not. You have to study the studies. But when people ignore the analysis and just keep jamming the same erroneous points up everyone's ass, that's when I get frustrated and things get heated.

So here goes my simplified explanation.

First of all, I did not see anywhere in that study where the patients levels remained elevated. Where's that? (So right from the beginning, we have miscommunication. See how these things go?)

Okay, a few quick points...

Why are these studies always done on one person? Any legit stufy would include hundreds at a time.

What was the person's history? It often has nothing to do with men who are suppressed from steroid use.

The treatment usually lasts for several months. Can you imagine the effect that a 4-6 month course of Clomid would have on some people?

You also claim it mentioned the before and after numbers. Where? They weren't on the studies posted. I've never seen a case where T was recovered and remained elevated. Never. NEVER. And I've been at this for over 15 years.

Now, you may have something that shows numbers, but if they're being respresented incorrectly, then we're back to this whole back and forth explanation/argument.

Let me just say that I've read dozens of these things. There's always something flawed in the conclusions. Now I have nothing to gain from that. I WISH Clomid worked for me. When I used it I was a fucking MESS. THAT, is what started my whole search for an alternative. it's not like I bought some shit and decided to sell it and decided to stop people from buying Clomid. That's dumb and insulting. This is my life's work and it's serious.

As far as Clomid being a form of TRT, that's just absurd. It has far too many toxicity issues.

Now...for the last time. Some people find that Clomid works for them. Great. Using supps can only help. But I want to help people avoid what I, and many others have experienced from clomid and nolva use. Weakness, loss of libido, loss of gains, foul mood, lethargy, weepiness, vision problems and impotence.

AND on top of it, the recovery effects are dubious. Even Dan Duchaine -- the guy all these internet guru's are essentially copying, admitting nolva was a shitty drug.

Now that there are better alternatives, why use it? A lot of people are seeing that and appreciating it. But to others, they just want to piss on it. And of course, they've never even tried the supps. That's ALWAYS the case.

And that's that. I really don't want to discuss it any further.

 

[RADAR]

Shit, I'm still recovering from yesterday's monkeyfuck.

Let me say this right from the start. This debate requires A LOT of understanding. People see a cut and paste study and they immediately think "Ooh! Proof!" Well, it is not. You have to study the studies. But when people ignore the analysis and just keep jamming the same erroneous points up everyone's ass, that's when I get frustrated and things get heated.

So here goes my simplified explanation.

First of all, I did not see anywhere in that study where the patients levels remained elevated. Where's that? (So right from the beginning, we have miscommunication. See how these things go?)

Okay, a few quick points...

Why are these studies always done on one person? Any legit stufy would include hundreds at a time.

What was the person's history? It often has nothing to do with men who are suppressed from steroid use.

The treatment usually lasts for several months. Can you imagine the effect that a 4-6 month course of Clomid would have on some people?

You also claim it mentioned the before and after numbers. Where? They weren't on the studies posted. I've never seen a case where T was recovered and remained elevated. Never. NEVER. And I've been at this for over 15 years.

Now, you may have something that shows numbers, but if they're being respresented incorrectly, then we're back to this whole back and forth explanation/argument. Let me just say that I've read dozens of these things. There's always something flawed in the conclusions. Now I have nothing to gain from that. I WISH Clomid worked for me. When I used it I was a fucking MESS. THAT, is what started my whole search for an alternative. it's not like I bought some shit and decided to sell it and decided to stop people from buying Clomid. That's dumb and insulting. This is my life's work and it's serious.

As far as Clomid being a form of TRT, that's just absurd. It has far too many toxicity issues.

Now...for the last time. Some people find that Clomid works for them. Great. Using supps can only help. But I want to help people avoid what I, and many others have experienced from clomid and nolva use. Weakness, loss of libido, loss of gains, foul mood, lethargy, weepiness, vision problems and impotence.

AND on top of it, the effects are dubious. Even Dan Duchaine -- the guy all these internet guru's are essentially copying, admitting nolva was a shitty drug.

Now that there are better alternatives, why use it? A lot of people are seeing that and appreciating it. But to others, they just want to piss on it. And of course, they've never even tried the supps. That's ALWAYS the case.

And that's that. I really don't want to discuss it any further.

agree with nelson, tried this on another forum and got the same thing,let them have their freaking clomid ,nova

 

[mr.sagat]

Nelson is right there is no way that clomid will keep you elevated after use, that is crazy. If that was true I'd be doing cycles of clomid and not test. I do love my nolvadex but will be the first person to tell you that it is hepatoxic, and long term use has been linked to increased chances of cancer.....

 

[rappert]

nothing keeps you elevated for any considerable period of time after cessation of use, correct?

 

[Nelson Montana]

nothing keeps you elevated for any considerable period of time after cessation of use, correct?

Yes -- your own body. That's why you need to recover your natural levels. As long as you use a drug, you're dependent on that drug.

For a quick post I recommend using HCG, but that too doesn't cure anything. It just gives a jump start to recovery. If that's all Clomid does, why bother with all the sides? Just use HCG. But at some point you still need to produce T on your own.

UNLEASHED can be used indefinitely. Some guys never come off. I'm one of them. That extra bit of free T makes a difference, so why not use it?

 

[rappert]

Yes -- your own body. That's why you need to recover your natural levels. As long as you use a drug, you're dependent on that drug.

gotcha..i meant above what your body can produce on its own.

 

[Dogfox]

Shit, I'm still recovering from yesterday's monkeyfuck.

Let me say this right from the start. This debate requires A LOT of understanding. People see a cut and paste study and they immediately think "Ooh! Proof!" Well, it is not. You have to study the studies. But when people ignore the analysis and just keep jamming the same erroneous points up everyone's ass, that's when I get frustrated and things get heated.

So here goes my simplified explanation.

First of all, I did not see anywhere in that study where the patients levels remained elevated. Where's that? (So right from the beginning, we have miscommunication. See how these things go?)

Okay, a few quick points...

Why are these studies always done on one person? Any legit stufy would include hundreds at a time.

What was the person's history? It often has nothing to do with men who are suppressed from steroid use.

The treatment usually lasts for several months. Can you imagine the effect that a 4-6 month course of Clomid would have on some people?

You also claim it mentioned the before and after numbers. Where?
If you look at the graph on the study you shall see that there is a 1 month period after he stopped taking clomid
They weren't on the studies posted. I've never seen a case where T was recovered and remained elevated.
Altho this has some truth to it the same is also true for every OTC product, infact many of them have no direct studies showing reversal of hypogonadism ]
Never. NEVER. And I've been at this for over 15 years.

Now, you may have something that shows numbers, but if they're being respresented incorrectly, then we're back to this whole back and forth explanation/argument.

Let me just say that I've read dozens of these things. There's always something flawed in the conclusions. Now I have nothing to gain from that. I WISH Clomid worked for me. When I used it I was a fucking MESS. THAT, is what started my whole search for an alternative. it's not like I bought some shit and decided to sell it and decided to stop people from buying Clomid. That's dumb and insulting. This is my life's work and it's serious.

As far as Clomid being a form of TRT, that's just absurd. It has far too many toxicity issues.
Clomid itself is not a trt, but an isolated isomer has been considered due to clomids promising results on patients, i would imagine the idea of the single isomer is to reduce the toxicity and make it more available to everyone. INteresting to note that its isomer has made it as far as SARMS S4 did in clinical trials. And to my knowledge those trials are continuing

Now...for the last time. Some people find that Clomid works for them. Great. Using supps can only help. But I want to help people avoid what I, and many others have experienced from clomid and nolva use. Weakness, loss of libido, loss of gains, foul mood, lethargy, weepiness, vision problems and impotence.

AND on top of it, the recovery effects are dubious. Even Dan Duchaine -- the guy all these internet guru's are essentially copying, admitting nolva was a shitty drug.

Now that there are better alternatives, why use it? A lot of people are seeing that and appreciating it. But to others, they just want to piss on it. And of course, they've never even tried the supps. That's ALWAYS the case.

And that's that. I really don't want to discuss it any further.
Understood. I was merely posting up the studies results as clearly many in the other thread had not read it as the OP posted merely a link to an abstract

 

[Nelson Montana]

Not quite accurate. It said "after one month, T was normalized." Well, what's normal? 300 ngs? It could actually have been lowered, but show up "normal."

Secondly, I never said supplements "cured" hypogonadalism. But they can be used indefinitely (I believe this is the 4th time I've said that). And they help while the body is in recovery. Drugs do not. They cause a dependance. I can't explain it any clearer than that.

 

[Dogfox]

Not quite accurate. It said "after one month, T was normalized." Well, what's normal? 300 ngs? It could actually have been lowered, but show up "normal."

Secondly, I never said supplements "cured" hypogonadalism. But they can be used indefinitely (I believe this is the 4th time I've said that). And they help while the body is in recovery. Drugs do not. They cause a dependance. I can't explain it any clearer than that.

On the graph his test is in the mid 600s after 1 month of no clomid. Considering his starting point id say 300 would be good.

I understand your second point, however I will add that the first few weeks i find a lose dose nolva really ramps up my test. And the OTC products help maintain that. But what I do not agree with is completely not using HCG or any kind of HPTA stimulant and then using purely OTC products. Clearly nolva and clomid along with HCG work at increasing T, why would you not run a low dose of whichever one you tolerated best and run the OTC supps along side and after to maintain it. To go completely one way or the other, either drug or OTC is not the best route.
Again I am not advocating sole use of a serm as a pct, instead that if you can tolerate a low dose after your cycle why not add it in.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I'm through explaining this. Already, there are misunderstandings, both in the details and in what I've said, suggested, and recommended.

I can see it being headed for another monkeyfuck.

So,from here on in I'll just refer to this post.http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/another-note-733733.html

Thanks.

 

[Dogfox]

I'm through explaining this. Already, there are misunderstandings, both in the details and in what I've said, suggested, and recommended.

I can see it being headed for another monkeyfuck.

So,from here on in I'll just refer to this post.http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/another-note-733733.html

Thanks.

Alright

 

[C.K.]

clomid and nolva do play their part in recovery but they DONT help with your mood/libido/energy/muscles so what they do stuff like hcgenerate does better what is so hard to understand about that? Clomid/nolva were not designed for pct recovery now stuff like hcgenerate on the other hand was designed specifically for that... If you're intent on using clomid go for it but I'm not all about crying while watching tv and blurry vision lol

 

[Dogfox]

clomid and nolva do play their part in recovery but they DONT help with your mood/libido/energy/muscles so what they do stuff like hcgenerate does better what is so hard to understand about that? Clomid/nolva were not designed for pct recovery now stuff like hcgenerate on the other hand was designed specifically for that...

I understand where your comming from, them not being designed for PCT. But thats also a pretty all encompassing umbrella statement. I mean half the shit we use if not most of it is not original manufactured with the bodybuilder/athlete in mind. Yet it just so happens these things can be used for other applications

if HCGenerate works for you great. But unlike nolva or clomid, which may or may not work for you, it has not been involved in a direct study. IE taking the actual HCGenerate product. I will say however that the OTC supp i use hasnt either and i find that works great - but i dont put it in place of what i know works like HCG, clomid, or nolva. Instead I add it to them. I get along fine with HCG and nolva, and adding in OTC products helps me even more and keeps my test high once ive stopped using them.

If i were to go purely a drug route my test could fall off afterward, similarly if i went completely OTC I could not kickstart my test as much as needed. I mean in the study earlier in the thread the guys test is dramatically increased with 5 days of clomid. So even taking a serm for a very short period, or HCG, exhibits some pretty favourable results. The OTC then help keep those results ie high test.

 

[itsmetical]

clomid and nolva do play their part in recovery but...

This was all I was illustrating to Nelson in the other thread. That is absolutely it.

Without dragging the argument on, he said this was a myth and impossible, even though there were medical studies illustrating a full recovery by the use of clomid.

If his products do a myriad of other things and make you feel good, then that is great, they might be the next best thing. Never said they weren't.

But to outright refute documented science makes no sense at all, especially when discussing a subject as critical as this.

I know you read the study C.K., do you believe it is a myth? Do you believe it is not possible and the University of Texas just publishes whatever they feel like?

link: www ncbi nlm nih gov/pubmed/12524089

Fertil Steril. 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5.
Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.
Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene.

DESIGN: Case report.

SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic.

PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

 

[itsmetical]

I'll be the first to admit, the thread got out of control, and I was definitely a contributing factor. But I called Nelson's bluff and he was unwilling to stand by his word.

When approaching the use of anabolics, a lot of us rely on documented science as a primer to anything we start. It is frustrating to constantly be told by some guy on the internet that studies done by professional doctors and universities, published in medical journals are bogus simply because he's spoken with Dan Duchane or Lou Ferrigno or whoever and they say otherwise.

Experience has no bearing on the practicality of science. The efficacy of a drug is determined by the change in markers that were hypothesized to be affected (in the case of clomid, T, LH, FSH).

 

[C.K.]

to each their own right and sometimes what works for someone isn't gonna work for another I did recover when using nolva+clomid but I also crashed hard and felt like crap while on it sex drive was pretty blah and I lost pretty much everything coming off cycle too that's not the case now however.. One of my fave pct supplements was novadex-xt (which is now banned btw nothing gave me plump balls and morning wood like it did) everyone on here talked crap about it but ofcourse never used it and there are threads on other forums of guys posting bloods on it with test levels over 1000 but I don't argue about it and try to push it on other people I just stocked up before it was banned hehe all I'm saying is find what works for you and stick with it there is no "all in all pct" everyone knows what works for them or what they want to believe in and mixs and matches as long as we are all recovering and keeping gains there should be no debate

 

[itsmetical]

Shit, I'm still recovering from yesterday's monkeyfuck.

Let me say this right from the start. This debate requires A LOT of understanding. People see a cut and paste study and they immediately think "Ooh! Proof!" Well, it is not. You have to study the studies. But when people ignore the analysis and just keep jamming the same erroneous points up everyone's ass, that's when I get frustrated and things get heated.

So here goes my simplified explanation.

First of all, I did not see anywhere in that study where the patients levels remained elevated. Where's that? (So right from the beginning, we have miscommunication. See how these things go?)

Please read the result and conclusion of the study below. It clearly spells out for you that this patients T levels were restored.

I know you're going to say, "restored to what" but again, I think it is safe to assume that the patients levels were restored from close to nothing, to something within the "normal" range.

Okay, a few quick points...

Why are these studies always done on one person? Any legit stufy would include hundreds at a time.

You of all people know this will never happen. Universities are not going to spend millions of dollars studying post cycle therapy for steroid users. At best we are lucky to have a handful of studies illustrating the effectiveness of clomid on reintroducing GnRH output. However, this particular study was done on a steroid user for the exact purpose of recovery.

What was the person's history? It often has nothing to do with men who are suppressed from steroid use.

Actually, this study was done on a man suppressed from steroid use.

The treatment usually lasts for several months. Can you imagine the effect that a 4-6 month course of Clomid would have on some people?

This treatment lasted 2 months.

You also claim it mentioned the before and after numbers. Where? They weren't on the studies posted. I've never seen a case where T was recovered and remained elevated. Never. NEVER. And I've been at this for over 15 years.

The study explains that the man recovered. In other words, his test levels remained elevated. It's right there in your face. If his number was 70 at the start, and 400 after the therapy, you would be like "oh that isn't high enough he did not recover." In reality, most men DON'T have testosterone at the upper quadrant of the range. That is why there are ranges.

Now, you may have something that shows numbers, but if they're being respresented incorrectly, then we're back to this whole back and forth explanation/argument.

Why and how could these numbers be represented incorrectly? There was a clear objective to the study, done by trained professionals associated with a medical university that has published hundreds of studies in other fields of medicine. If something was flawed, the study would have never made it into this medical journal.

Let me just say that I've read dozens of these things. There's always something flawed in the conclusions. Now I have nothing to gain from that. I WISH Clomid worked for me. When I used it I was a fucking MESS. THAT, is what started my whole search for an alternative. it's not like I bought some shit and decided to sell it and decided to stop people from buying Clomid. That's dumb and insulting. This is my life's work and it's serious.

Maybe that is why you have such an aggressive stance against it. Because it didn't work for YOU.

As far as Clomid being a form of TRT, that's just absurd. It has far too many toxicity issues.

Now...for the last time. Some people find that Clomid works for them. Great. Using supps can only help. But I want to help people avoid what I, and many others have experienced from clomid and nolva use. Weakness, loss of libido, loss of gains, foul mood, lethargy, weepiness, vision problems and impotence.

AND on top of it, the recovery effects are dubious. Even Dan Duchaine -- the guy all these internet guru's are essentially copying, admitting nolva was a shitty drug.

Now that there are better alternatives, why use it? A lot of people are seeing that and appreciating it. But to others, they just want to piss on it. And of course, they've never even tried the supps. That's ALWAYS the case.

That is fine. If your product is a better alternative, then everyone should use them. However, the argument got out of hand because you insisted that the effectiveness of clomid was a myth and could not raise T. Even when there are plenty of studies that show it can.

And that's that. I really don't want to discuss it any further.

link: www ncbi nlm nih gov/pubmed/12524089

Fertil Steril. 2003 Jan;79(1):203-5.
Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.
Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene.

DESIGN: Case report.

SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic.

PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male.

INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH.

RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis.

CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

 

[itsmetical]

I've paid for and attached the full study for everyone to read.

The most important line of the study, illustrating a relapse (however still much higher than baseline) from too short of a duration of use, followed by a complete recovery after the appropriate duration of use:


In our case, the
reestablishment of eugonadal status was achieved with just a
short challenge of clomiphene citrate 100 mg over 2 weeks,
but the patient relapsed. He needed a longer course of 2
months of clomiphene citrate to maintain eugonadal status.

There is a nice graph in there illustrating the patients levels before and after cessation of clomid. Recovered and maintained levels of T appear to be in the high 600s, clearly illustrating a successful recovery in this case.

Has anyone else here spent $40 for the members of this board lately? Yet I was still banned for getting into an argument when all I was doing was trying to help and presenting evidence of my claims. Is this fair?

 

[Dogfox]

I've paid for and attached the full study for everyone to read.

The most important line of the study, illustrating a relapse (however still much higher than baseline) from too short of a duration of use, followed by a complete recovery after the appropriate duration of use:


In our case, the
reestablishment of eugonadal status was achieved with just a
short challenge of clomiphene citrate 100 mg over 2 weeks,
but the patient relapsed. He needed a longer course of 2
months of clomiphene citrate to maintain eugonadal status.

There is a nice graph in there illustrating the patients levels before and after cessation of clomid. Recovered and maintained levels of T appear to be in the high 600s, clearly illustrating a successful recovery in this case.

Has anyone else here spent $40 for the members of this board lately? Yet I was still banned for getting into an argument when all I was doing was trying to help and presenting evidence of my claims. Is this fair?

why the f**k did you buy it??? lol, theres a link for it at the bottom of the abstract for free. I summed up the article in the OP. But thanks for re clarifying.

 

[IronMagLabs]

Its all good.

 

[Dogfox]

to each their own right and sometimes what works for someone isn't gonna work for another I did recover when using nolva+clomid but I also crashed hard and felt like crap while on it sex drive was pretty blah and I lost pretty much everything coming off cycle too that's not the case now however.. One of my fave pct supplements was novadex-xt (which is now banned btw nothing gave me plump balls and morning wood like it did) everyone on here talked crap about it but ofcourse never used it and there are threads on other forums of guys posting bloods on it with test levels over 1000 but I don't argue about it and try to push it on other people I just stocked up before it was banned hehe all I'm saying is find what works for you and stick with it there is no "all in all pct" everyone knows what works for them or what they want to believe in and mixs and matches as long as we are all recovering and keeping gains there should be no debate

XT is a great supp, same as inhibit E. Pretty sure you can still find a few floating around. Its basically just branded ATD.
Agree with you on last point, if we all recover and keep gains its all good. Blood tests are essential to knowing if you have recovered though - ball size and keeping gains are obviously not the most concrete ways. Thats why im always skeptical about OTC products bc theres no blood work to back it up, and a guy on EF posting his results I cannot trust. A friend or myself taking an OTC product and seeing the numbers myself is proof that a product works. Serms and HCG have their proof in clinical trials.
Thats why its always good to include a serm or HCG, and then use a trusted OTC product thats proven to have tangible non debated results. The mix and match as you put it has every benefit from both sides.

 

[itsmetical]

why the f**k did you buy it??? lol, theres a link for it at the bottom of the abstract for free. I summed up the article in the OP. But thanks for re clarifying.

Ah shit really? Hah, I totally missed it. Ah well, no biggie.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I love ef

 

[needtogetaas]

OK guys we will keep this thread open and we will discus the topic. But lets all remember the rules. This is all I ask. Nice clean conversation.


1) EF is not a source board. We don't discuss any aspect of buying and selling. This includes source names, UG labs, UG brand names, UG quality checks, prices, payment methods, shipping, receiving, Customs, etc.

2) EF staff do not do source checks, and we dont get involved in scammer issues. These are just other aspects of buying and selling and are no concern of ours.

3) The PM system is not for soliciting sources or customers or doing source checks between members. Anyone so doing will be banned. Anyone "doing business" with a member banned for using the PM system in this way will be banned as well.

If you receive a PM soliciting sources or offering to sell you something, or asking for a source check, please forward it to a mod.

4) We dont discuss the use of recreational drugs (meth, coke, X, GHB, K, etc). There's no place for that on a Fitness and Bodybuilding Board.

5) We do not condone advising people under the age of 21 to use AAS.

6. We treat each and every member with respect on this forum. If you turn out to be more trouble then you are worth. Always fighting,name calling , and acting like a child. We will show you the door.

7. If you do not have a advertising contract then you are not a sponsor of this site. You are not allowed to advertise a product, a service,or try and sell anything on this site unless you have spoken to the admin and leaders of this site and a adverting agreement has been made. If you do you will be banned


8. When a mod says do it. Just do it. End of discussion. We will not tolerate people giving the staff a hard time about doing there jobs. No matter how you feel about it or how right you think you are.

If you feel a mod is abusing there job,treating you unfair,or doing something wrong. You need to talk to a admin myself or If non of them can be found stilleto. Big rick rock and Ef frank are the admin of this site. We mod the mods,Not you.

If you're under 21, dont ask. If asked by an under-21 member, don't tell.
Saying "I know you're going to do it anyway even though it's a mistake" is not "providing guidance" -- it is a cop-out.

8. you talk about dnp you are banned. No chances what so ever.


Now What we can do is open the thread back up and go back to discussing the topic. Not attack each other, not making accusations, Not "making alters" and posting with them.

Anyone making a alter will just have there alter account banned and deleted. If you see some one using a alter account. As a member I ask you to just report his post. So that we can all go back to having our clean discussions here on elite. Because if alters show up to cause problems there is a good chance We will just delete the thread and then we all as members do not get to enjoy the conversation any more.

So please lets all do out part to help keep things clean and within the rules so we can all enjoy the site and the discussions we are having now. Thank you so much.

 

[ceo]

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Thank you for presenting objective data rather than subjective assessments. There is something honorable and respectful in seeking a honest conclusion through discipline. The Scientific Method teaches us put our emotions aside and focus on coming to a standard conclusion through well documented data and statistical integrity. It also teaches us that when research is correlated with monetary goals scientific contortion is unknowingly induced through a subconscious progression of personal desire.

This forum has been providing good honest information on anabolic's and weight training for over a decade and I'm sure it will try and continue to base these conclusions on facts rather than opinions.

...Not to say there isn't truth in some subjective claims. Its just a "hypothesis" until proven so.

 

[stevesmi]

these threads are important and we all win in the end when we have a civil discourse.

I had no idea this thread even existed. but I'm glad I found it.

my 2 cents are this.

if i run tren or deca I am definately gonna throw the kitchen sink at my PCT. that means HCG, HMG, SERM, and unleashed (which is the best natty product out there IMO) in that order. this PCT works for me, but it may not work for everybody or may not be necessary for everybody which is why you must experiment with different strategies.

PCT is important in that you want to keep as much as your strength and mass gains as possible. the quicker you recover, the better chance you have! I can say its worked cause my levels went back to normal and I kept most of my gains.

this is why vets on here keep telling the noobs to gain as much knowledge before running AAS as possible and its highly recommended you run a test only cycle first. big mistake running deca or tren for a first cycle! you won't know what to do when your test levels come back <100!!

so be smart

 

[C.K.]

what is the verdict on phytoserms-347 it seems to have been hyped up for a couple weeks and now I hear nothing about it...

 

[stevesmi]

Peter North, porno star and cumshot king, is reputed to use clomid year-round to increase his ejaculatory volume.

I wonder what his mean test levels are like?

wouldn't surprise me but watching the documentary bigger, faster, stronger they inject something into their penises... dunno what though.

I wouldn't take any drug year round, the side effects are not worth it and the long term consequences negate any short term gains. but when its your job and you need to perform at a high standard i guess you have to.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Peter North, porno star and cumshot king, is reputed to use clomid year-round to increase his ejaculatory volume.

I wonder what his mean test levels are like?

Completely bogus. I know exactly where that rumor started. Totally false. If that wee the case everyone would be doing it. North is just a freak. For me, Clomid DECREASED ejaculatory volume.