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CKD GURU's and USERS!!!

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dr_skier

Active member
Ok guys some last ckd q's here:
tell me about these 'one the fence' foods for ckd, hidden carbs too much?
-ANPB
-Nuts (any specifics?)
-Sugar alcohols' like in "2g net carbs" protein bars etc.....
-aspratame in diet coke, diet candies, crystal light etc (some say prevents and kicks out of ketosis??)
-just looked at cottage cheese, thats to bad, guess thats gone.....
-veggies like brocolleri, avacado, lettuce, spinach? no go?

Does anyone have any mealplans of theirs for CKD?
Does anyone have any starting and finishing results for their CKD experience?
Any foods out there to eat/avoid that i might not think of?
 
I avoided most nuts and ANPB on the anabolic diet during the week. Most of my 20 grams of carbs came from steamed Veggies. Net carbs and aspartame I've heard conflicting reports on whether or not they are absorbed by the body and affect ketosis. Since it's a short term diet, it's probably best to avoid them or if anything use splenda/stevia sparingly. And water with lemon is fine as a beverage.
 
thing is that anpb is 2g carbs/tablespoon, one of those a day couldn't hurt the count... but onto your steamed veggies, what did you eat for those??? I thought i heard brocorolli, celery, avacado, lettuce (iceburg) were all fine, but then someone told me no they aren't....

Can anyone else comment on aspratame in diet coke and diet candies, also other artificial sweetners that have "sugar alochols". ie there is an atkins protein bar with only 2net grams of carbs but 20g of sugaralochols listed as carbs. confusing stuff.
 
when interviewed with george S, rich maffei an elite mod said this
"This sweet taste can sometimes trick your body into releasing insulin, which is something undesirable on the ketogenic diet. (A diet consisting of very low carbohydrate consumption, usually ranging from 20-60 grams per day) However, we must realize that although insulin is released, there are still no carbohydrates present. Aspartame, therefore, may cause you to become light headed due to too much released insulin, however, it will not take a person out of ketosis."
 
One last post to get up here, this is the candy i got, is it ok???

Sorbitol, Gum Arabic, Color may include: (Red 40, Blue 1, Blue 2, Titanium Dioxide, Yellow Tumeric) Combination of Natural and Artificial Flavors, Oils may include: (Lemon, Lime, Orange, Spearmint, Peppermint) Citric Acid

NUTRITIONAL INFORMATION:

Total Carbohydrates: Fifteen (15) grams of Sorbitol Sugar Alcohols.
Fifteen (15) grams = zero (0) net carbohydrates

So now it has no net carbs but still sugar alcohols, i am perplexed.
 
With regards to ANPB, you can have a taplespoon or more per day as long as you count it in as part of your total daily carboydrate intake. For steamed veggies, I stuck with brocolli, cauliflower, eggplant, zuchinni, and iceberg lettuce. And I did have a few sips of diet pepsi with my meals just to "wash it down". For every study that's shown aspartame takes your body out of ketosis there's one that says it does nothing to effect blood sugar so it's just best to limit them to a minimum while on this diet. I did use splenda and counted each packet as 1 gram of carbohydrates. I would completely avoid any protein bar or candy (unless it's very small) that contains sugar alcohols, sorbitol, glycerol, malitol just to be safe and make sure you get the most while on the this type of diet....Here's a link on the subject:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betteru35.htm
 
thanks for the heads up. Well i'll limit my artifical sweetener intake i suppose. no more sorbitol, but hey brocorlli is nice news! and i cant start my day without a scoop of anpb, its "adam's", great stuff!!!

Does anyone want to take a stab on telling me about am cardio while on keto diet? I dragged my lethargic ass to the gym this am for 35 GRUELLING minutes lol, good sweat and heart rate though. Would the cardio (am empty tank) keep you further in ketosis longer by buring up anything your body might have converted or by burining any of the 20or less grams of carbs i'll eat during the day?
 
In order to establish ketosis when you are first starting out the diet it is essential that you eat zero carbs. Nada. Zip. None. I have lots of experience with this diet and can tell you that it's much easier to completely eliminate them until you can drop into ketosis very quickly. At that point you can add some fiber like brocoli. I didn't eat any carbs at any time. I don't know why people are always trying to add carbs to a no carb diet. You'll feel like shit if you add carbs because you won't be in ketosis. When you are in ketosis you feel much better than being in low blood sugar.

So no ANPB, no cottage cheese, and be careful when you have whey protein. You should only have it post workout and that's it.
 
sigh, i had a funny feel MAK that you were going to tell me thats how i needed to get into deep keto... but thank you. Well i had a scoop of anpb at break alongside my fried eggs and ground beef lol... ok i'll cut any and every carb compeletly at this stage. This is day two so i should be getting close to keto here. I'll even throw in a second cardio session tonite to see if that can take me the final notch into keto.. Question though, on carbup (in 10 days now), can you eat fiber like broc or anpb the next day when u are going back to keto, or same principle, next two days keep it strict as to be sure u get there quick?
 
True about limiting carbs as much as possible if you're just breaking into a CKD from a more traditional high carb diet. Most people won't even get into ketosis for 3-6 days. I wouldn't go crazy with the carb up either. 12 grams carbs/kilo of bodyweight for 36 hours instead of 48. I know a few people who followed Duchaine's advice to the letter and did a full body high rep workout the night before going back to no carbs and got into ketosis by the next morning.
 
alex2678 said:
True about limiting carbs as much as possible if you're just breaking into a CKD from a more traditional high carb diet. Most people won't even get into ketosis for 3-6 days. I wouldn't go crazy with the carb up either. 12 grams carbs/kilo of bodyweight for 36 hours instead of 48. I know a few people who followed Duchaine's advice to the letter and did a full body high rep workout the night before going back to no carbs and got into ketosis by the next morning.
Click to expand...

That's what I recommend. Going no more than 36 hours for the carb load and taking in a max of 12 grams of carbs per kg of lean body mass. I can drop into ketosis in about 12 hours without using slin nor training.

Dr., once you have done about 4 weeks of the diet your body should be primed to drop into ketosis quickly. At that point you can add brocoli the first day after the carb up and still stay in ketosis. It's the initial stages of the diet where you need to be careful.
 
Gotcha. I'm also planning on doing as you said and skipping that first carb load, so in 10 days time i'll load by eating some hi gi carbs (fruit), hitting a workout, high gi carbs and then eat carbs for the rest of the day, avoiding fats, and tapering down with low gi carbs...... one thing though, i'm planning on just making sat my carb up day, 8am-midnight kind of thing, does anyone see any problems with this?
 
dr_skier said:
Gotcha. I'm also planning on doing as you said and skipping that first carb load, so in 10 days time i'll load by eating some hi gi carbs (fruit), hitting a workout, high gi carbs and then eat carbs for the rest of the day, avoiding fats, and tapering down with low gi carbs...... one thing though, i'm planning on just making sat my carb up day, 8am-midnight kind of thing, does anyone see any problems with this?
Click to expand...

OK bro, a number of things. Don't eat fruit while you're loading. It's great to kick you out of ketosis, but the fructose in it, which is why it kicks you out of ketosis, will not allow you to load optimally. You will gain fat by using fruit during the load. Just wanted to make sure you're clear on that. If you load for only 24 hours you will not fully supercompensate. You may lose a little more fat than on a 36 hour load, but your strength will suffer and eventually your muscle mass. Make sure to do the depletion workout. I found that you'll load much better with it.
 
So say my load day is Saturday (or friday night and sat then for a 36h). I'd want to do a huge lift/cardio workout before I begin loading then after my workout begin with a pasta meal or other high carb meal and continue with the carbs until sat night where I do another big workout to help me on my way back to ketosis.

Now i'm borderline dying here mak, i've got everything cut today (yesterday i had a tablespoon of anpb, 10sugar-free sorbital candies, diet coke and mayo) now those all have some trace carbs in them. So today nothing, nadda. Can i have any sugarfree gum at all? Or any aspratame whatsoever?

Not to say I dont trust you 100% mak, cause i do, but lyle Mcdonald wrote this about fruit:
"Prior to the depletion workout, it is important that you get out of
ketosis by consuming 50 grams of carbs (fruit is ideal) about 2 hours
before the workout. The rationale is this: while in ketosis, the body will
prefer ketones to glucose for fuel. To achieve maximal glycogen depletion
in all muscle fibers, you need to exit ketosis. Fruit (which will
preferentially refill liver glycogen) is the ideal way to do this. This will allow for maximal glycogen depletion during the workout. The carb-up should begin immediately after the final Friday workout and
continue from 24-36 hours at which point you should switch back to low carb
intake."

Also can anyone explain this to me (cited below), if one does this technique with just one mega-carb meal an hour after friday's workout, how are they "spiked" back into keto by sat morning? I am looking to loose the most fat possible, i may just carb up for one meal/week (the fri) or do a 36h carb load every two weeks. Wow so much to read and learn.


"For those who need to lose fat very quickly, carbing every other weekend
can have very positive results although it's not as much fun. In this
case, I'd suggest one concentrated carb meal one hour in length right after
Friday's workout and then go immediately back to low carbs. Unless you
really overdo it, you will probably spike yourself back into ketosis by
Saturday morning."

Thanks everyone, thanks Mak and Alex!!!
 
Dr. that's what I said about the fruit. You need to eat fruit BEFORE the depletion workout, but not during the load.

Pasta should not be your first meal. In fact you should drink straight dextrose and whey for your first several meals after the depletion workout. Also you don't need to do cardio after the depletion workout. In fact, you proabably won't be able to.

I wouldn't recommend the one carb meal thing. There's no need to do that. You might as well just stay in ketosis and skip carbs all together.
 
I wouldnt eat anything but clean foods.

I ate nothing but chicken and eggs my first 2 weeks.

I ate something with aspartame once and it threw me out of ketosis. Watch out for anything with starch. This threw me out of keto too.

I lost 13 pounds my first 2 weeks.

anpb and nuts have sugar in it. This will kick you out of ketosis too. Stay away from that diet soda crap. Just drink water
 
Ok I thinik I may just have this thing down (with the help of you ckd guru's esp. Mak).
So i'm gonna get some keto sticks tonight and see if i'm in keto tomorrow am. My carb up day is next weekend. So next friday I'll eat some fruit before an all-out all body workout with some cardio after if i can, following this i'll have a whey/dextrose shake, some dinner (chicken breast)? then another whey dextrose shake later that night... say 30gwhey/60gdextrose per shake, sat i will carb with my gf making me a nice pankcake breakfast (avoiding fats today) and carb for the day going to low gi carbs that evening stopping my carbup sat night. I'll give it my normal lifting sat and forgo cardio sat too. Sun am back to keto diet with an am sunday cardio and lifting that night and back to keto diet for the week. Sound good?
 
Dammit, no keto this am, looks like chicken and eggs only today, some ground beef too... dunno why i'm not in keto... would taking clen yesterday am or yohimbe effect this?
 
I think it was mentioned in the last thread that niacin consumption can take you out of ketosis and should be limited on a CKD. Consequently, somethimes taking large amounts of B-Vitamins can give a false reading of ketosis even when you're not.

Since you're just starting this type of diet, I wouldn't expect to see ketosis for a few days. A lot of people are slow responders when it comes to shifting their body's primary energy source from carbs to fats. The greater your fat to protein ratio on this diet the more likely you are to get into ketosis faster. The conversion rate of amino acids to glucose is quite high without a high fat intake.
 
Thanks alex, i'll hit those efa's today, get some good tuna, ground beef, i just got some whipping cream to scramble my eggs in too. :)
 
oh also, i take my last test shot on apr 7th i think, is keto still ok through my month of pct, seems like a good way to preserve lbm and take some additional fat off too :)
 
really you can find out for yourself
cut that stuff out completely the first 2 or 3 days and check your keto stix to see if you are in ketosis yet. then toss some of that stuff in at moderate levels and recheck a few hours after eating it to make sure you are still in ketosis.. if not. . don't eat it again unless during a carb up.

its as simple as that

in dieting there is no black and white. People are different and respond differently to different foods, as such you need to learn what works for you and with a CKD ketostix really help you find out what works and what doesn't.
 
dr_skier said:
Ok I thinik I may just have this thing down (with the help of you ckd guru's esp. Mak).
So i'm gonna get some keto sticks tonight and see if i'm in keto tomorrow am. My carb up day is next weekend. So next friday I'll eat some fruit before an all-out all body workout with some cardio after if i can, following this i'll have a whey/dextrose shake, some dinner (chicken breast)? then another whey dextrose shake later that night... say 30gwhey/60gdextrose per shake, sat i will carb with my gf making me a nice pankcake breakfast (avoiding fats today) and carb for the day going to low gi carbs that evening stopping my carbup sat night. I'll give it my normal lifting sat and forgo cardio sat too. Sun am back to keto diet with an am sunday cardio and lifting that night and back to keto diet for the week. Sound good?
Click to expand...

During the first 6 hours of the carb up I would recommend drinking whey and dextrose every hour. Save the chicken for Saturday. After the whey and dextrose switch to whey and rice cakes. Then to pasta or rice. And last onto oatmeal or yams. Damn! You got me giving away my secrets... ;)

And don't do cardio after the depletion workout. The depletion workout is more a pumping session than a training session. Never go to failure. Stop about 3-4 reps before you fail. I train in a circuit fashion while doing a depletion workout.
 
Thanks Mak, again, infantie wisdom. Now that you've blown your secret :) can you shed some light on why some only do a 24h opposed to a 36h carb up, and also why some people go balls out eating everything carbs instead of your way. Is it because the types of carbs and the processing of the body leading to optimal saturation in your muscle cells (w/out gaining fat)?

Also, keto & pct anyone? good bad, ugly?

hehehe one last question, how long do most people run this miserable diet to obtain good results? Do they stop after a carb up or do they do that last carb up slowly as not to "balloon" if you will.
 
dr_skier said:
Thanks Mak, again, infantie wisdom. Now that you've blown your secret :) can you shed some light on why some only do a 24h opposed to a 36h carb up, and also why some people go balls out eating everything carbs instead of your way. Is it because the types of carbs and the processing of the body leading to optimal saturation in your muscle cells (w/out gaining fat)?

Also, keto & pct anyone? good bad, ugly?

hehehe one last question, how long do most people run this miserable diet to obtain good results? Do they stop after a carb up or do they do that last carb up slowly as not to "balloon" if you will.
Click to expand...

Some people only load for 24 hours to speed fat loss. These people aren't as concerned with preserving muscle. They just want to lose fat asap. A 36 hour load will allow one to supercomepensate. This will preserve muscle while dieting. I recommend a clean load because that's how you prevent fat gain and that's how you load your muscles will glycogen in the most efficient manner. CKD and PCT works great. You can end the diet by eating a more normal diet. I say more normal because we as bodybuilders never eat a normal diet.
 
how long do most stay on this diet? Until goals are met? I was thinking 4-6 weeks. My girlfriend is concerned, saying this diet is unhealthy, I asked her what she thought of her two cheesebuger meal after getting hammered on saturday night. But this diet cant be "healthy". Then again, i'm a results over health guy anyways. And in case anyone who know's my gf reads this, she's a healthy girl 99% of the time and pretty much the only reason i'd ever do cardio :)
 
dr_skier said:
This AM I am in KETOSIS, Mak, 12hours for you without slin??? hmmmm....:)
Click to expand...

Yeah. I can drop into ketosis very easily. All my clients that I had on this diet could do the same. This diet is very healthy. Here's a story for your GF. I had a friend that was fat and had very high cholesterol. His doc prescribed him some cholesterol meds and told him to start exercising and eating better. He came to me for help. I put him on a ckd and a few other supps, not AAS, and told him to hold off on the meds. 3 months later he went back to the doc. He lost about 25 lbs and his cholesterol was great. The doc said all cocky "well I see you've been taking your meds and took my advice.". My friend says "No. I haven't taken the meds you prescribed me and I didn't follow your advice on the diet". The doc says "so how did you make such fast progress?". "I've been eating 75% fat and working out 3 days a week.". The doc couldn't believe it. My friend laughed and thanked me for the help.
 
It's really a great diet for health. I know a lot of "experts" in the medical community will disagree. I had female co worker who lost a ton of weight and dropped her cholesterol levels to well under 200 mg/dL for first time in 20 years. Diet was mostly cream cheese, bacon and macadamian nuts. I don't even think she worked out aside from a daily walk in the park with her dog.
 
can someone just explain ketosis to me...?

is this just a term for your body using fats as energy as opposed to carbs...?

this looks really involved... and what are keto sticks...?

i'd like to try this in about 9 more weeks or so... but i have much to read before then...
 
ketostix are just a stick that you piss on that will turn colors (litmus paper like) and it allows you to tell if you have ketones in your urine. This is a sign that you are burning fat.

Ketogenic diets have been used in the past to treat things like epileptic seizures as well because of how it changes the way the brain uses energy.
 
so what would be an example of CKD meals per day?
 
Well yesterday my meals went like this...........

5whole eggs scrambled with cream - a gulp of flax oil

tuna/mayo/beefpaty mixed together

beef paty with chedder

1 v.large chicken breast diced with ranch and olive oil mixed in

ground turkey with cheese

some shrimp cooked in garlic and butter and water (drank the liquid after too :)
 
Depending on what your goals are, of course yuod want to drop calories down. Go to the lobby of this forumn and a sticky article at the top is MR.X's CKD worksheet. Go there type in your info and it works the numbers out for you. The nall u have to do is get the foods to hit those numbers!

Pretty Easy....

The problem can be the blandness of food choices....
I eat, chicken, steak, porkchop, roast beef, low carb ANPB, peanuts, almonds, sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, once in a while motz cheese sticks (but u have to be REAL carefull with dairy products.) and egg whites, and protein shakes.

Reccomend you up the cardio and keep training hard with the weights.

For the first couple days into ketosis you may feel a little slow or have headaches, thats due to your body changing over and using a new source for fuel. Its really not that bad as long as long as u can cook your meals and have time to eat 6 times a day. I like to carry around some PB with me if I know I may miss a meal. (some people can't because they will eat the whole jar, it's addicting :-D )
 
How do u justify peanuts......How do you justify PB then? You also have to realize having 2 servings of PB, or a serving of nuts through the day, added with your broccoli or green bean carbs....your not over 20 carbs. At least I never have been.

I just threw in low carb ANPB there I dont know wh yI said low carb, because it should be low carb either way.
 
fair enough, didn't look to close at the fiber, perhaps i should go buy some almonds today :) Now i've avoided artifical sweetners for the last 3 days here to be sure i get deep into ketosis, can i try adding them in bit by bit tomorrow to see how i do, i was thinking some sugarfree gum or a pack of equal or a diet coke at the movies tomorrow night:)
 
Only thing to watch out for is the aspartame' (sweetners) in some diet soda, some people are real sensitive and they can kick them out of keto. You need to kind of test it and play it by ear because each person is different, dont go over board either way. Once im well into keto I use a packet of splenda on some almonds or nuts just because the dryness of eating them make me feel sick lol...Almonds are a great source of Vitamin E, so it will help with your hair and skin as well :-)
 
One Glucorell-R every hour for the first four hours the night you stop your refeed. Can be extended to 6 total. You WILL want to be alseep when these fully kick in. Keep your water intake up high, keep water next to the bed. HIIT Cardio for 20 minutes on an empty tank when you wake followed by a two-set/20 rep per body part full body workout and you WILL be in ketosis by the end of the day: yes, thats less than 24 hours.

:)
 
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