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cheat day when cutting
- Thread starter maxb01
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M
Mr.X
Guest
depends how "CRAZY" you diet:
for example> when I diet I goto the extremes
for 4 days, then on the 5th day I up my carbs bit by bit
(I GO EXTREMELY low-carb high protein the 4 days)= then on day 6 in morning till, about noon, I eat
) good
1 st 4 meals starting on the night of 5th day are ONLY carbs and no FAT...I have 2 bowls of ffmilk, w/ cerial, at about 6/and 7/30...(some rasberies are nice to add too)
plus during that 5th day I add 25 g of carbs right after my workouts w/ my protein drink (I workout twice a day= so I get 50 carbs from that)_+ the cerial, is enough to get my body ready for 6th day CHEAT :O)....I wouldn't reccomend just JUMPING into a cheat day from a low.no =carb diet because it just isn't a feasible idea from my past experiences....
My 2cents
Mr.X
for example> when I diet I goto the extremes
for 4 days, then on the 5th day I up my carbs bit by bit
(I GO EXTREMELY low-carb high protein the 4 days)= then on day 6 in morning till, about noon, I eat
) good1 st 4 meals starting on the night of 5th day are ONLY carbs and no FAT...I have 2 bowls of ffmilk, w/ cerial, at about 6/and 7/30...(some rasberies are nice to add too)
plus during that 5th day I add 25 g of carbs right after my workouts w/ my protein drink (I workout twice a day= so I get 50 carbs from that)_+ the cerial, is enough to get my body ready for 6th day CHEAT :O)....I wouldn't reccomend just JUMPING into a cheat day from a low.no =carb diet because it just isn't a feasible idea from my past experiences....
My 2cents
Mr.X
M
Mr.X
Guest
here's the thing we are talking about 2 different diet:
I was talking about a High-Protein/low-carb/little fat, basically double protein intake. Now, what I think you wanted to know is the>
Anabolic diet = Ketonic diet, in ketosis you need a supercompensation in order to refill your muscle glycogen; thus, if you are on the "anabolic" diet then YES, you need a carb up, but, unfortunately, NOT a cheat day because a cheat day can make you gain FAT. Why you ask..well, my definition of a cheat day is EAT EVERTHING, yet that will mix sugars and fats, which in turn will spike your insulin and store the eaten fat. However, on the "anabolic" diet you CAN have a carb-up which DiPasquale describes in his Anabolic Diet where you eat high glycemic carbs 1st 4hours of carb up with NO FAT, then you can add a little fat to the combo in later meals. GOTO
very informative info)>
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/exclusive/mcdonald/carbup.htm
My 2cents
Mr.X
[email protected]
I was talking about a High-Protein/low-carb/little fat, basically double protein intake. Now, what I think you wanted to know is the>
Anabolic diet = Ketonic diet, in ketosis you need a supercompensation in order to refill your muscle glycogen; thus, if you are on the "anabolic" diet then YES, you need a carb up, but, unfortunately, NOT a cheat day because a cheat day can make you gain FAT. Why you ask..well, my definition of a cheat day is EAT EVERTHING, yet that will mix sugars and fats, which in turn will spike your insulin and store the eaten fat. However, on the "anabolic" diet you CAN have a carb-up which DiPasquale describes in his Anabolic Diet where you eat high glycemic carbs 1st 4hours of carb up with NO FAT, then you can add a little fat to the combo in later meals. GOTO
very informative info)>http://www.mesomorphosis.com/exclusive/mcdonald/carbup.htm
My 2cents
Mr.X
[email protected]
Cheat days are recommended on diets in general. They keep you sane, they keep your metabolism from shutting down and depending on your type of diet you can get other benefit from.
Contrary to what Mr. X says you should carb load on your free day when partaking in ANY kind of reduced carb diets, not only ketogenic ones like the "Anabolic Diet". The reason you carb load on ketogenic diets is because your glycogen stores become depleted during the week and if you try to lift weights with no glycogen stores you'll find it's damn near impossible.
So with depleted glycogen stores your body will attempt to fill them before storing them as fat. This is true with any reduced carb diets, not only ketogenic ones. If you eat moderate carbs during the week and perform weight training and cardio then no doubt you will deplete your stores. Eating more carbs on your free day will replenish these stores safely.
I would say base your free day on your amount of carbs during the week. If you eat a high carb diet then don't go nuts with carbs on free days as your glycogen stores aren't low. Personally I eat about 120g of carbs per day Monday through Saturday and by the end of the week I am flat. After a high carb free day on Sunday I repeatedly come back to the gym stronger on Monday. Not only that but I am leaner and my muscles are surging with size. My biceps gain half an inch just from the glycogen stores filling up.
However remember that you can take any free day too far and screw your progress up. Enjoy your food but just don't get out of hand. Don't TRY to eat too much and keep fat intake lower on this day even if you have high fat intake during the week. In the last 7 weeks I have had a free day every single week, and half of them I've went to bed almost sick from eating so much. And you know what? I've lost at least 9-10 lbs of fat, which included an 8mm drop in my abdominal skinfold measurement. With that kind of progress I have no plans on dropping my free day as personally I think it helps more than it hurts.
Contrary to what Mr. X says you should carb load on your free day when partaking in ANY kind of reduced carb diets, not only ketogenic ones like the "Anabolic Diet". The reason you carb load on ketogenic diets is because your glycogen stores become depleted during the week and if you try to lift weights with no glycogen stores you'll find it's damn near impossible.
So with depleted glycogen stores your body will attempt to fill them before storing them as fat. This is true with any reduced carb diets, not only ketogenic ones. If you eat moderate carbs during the week and perform weight training and cardio then no doubt you will deplete your stores. Eating more carbs on your free day will replenish these stores safely.
I would say base your free day on your amount of carbs during the week. If you eat a high carb diet then don't go nuts with carbs on free days as your glycogen stores aren't low. Personally I eat about 120g of carbs per day Monday through Saturday and by the end of the week I am flat. After a high carb free day on Sunday I repeatedly come back to the gym stronger on Monday. Not only that but I am leaner and my muscles are surging with size. My biceps gain half an inch just from the glycogen stores filling up.
However remember that you can take any free day too far and screw your progress up. Enjoy your food but just don't get out of hand. Don't TRY to eat too much and keep fat intake lower on this day even if you have high fat intake during the week. In the last 7 weeks I have had a free day every single week, and half of them I've went to bed almost sick from eating so much. And you know what? I've lost at least 9-10 lbs of fat, which included an 8mm drop in my abdominal skinfold measurement. With that kind of progress I have no plans on dropping my free day as personally I think it helps more than it hurts.
That was very helpful Vageta, thank you.
At last somebody that has clear ideas (I've listened to so much shit on this site: ie Casein is a quick absorbable protein, the 400 cal per day diet, 2h-3h morning cardios on an empty stomach, the diet consisting simply of 6 whey + flax oil meals, etc.)
May I ask you something? Because I'm cutting for a photo session, what is the carb depletion trick?
You said that on monday looked fuller after your cheat day. How can I reach my photo session looking fuller but still very ripped?
I'm not on a Keto diet. I'm on a high protein, low carbs, moderate fat diet
At last somebody that has clear ideas (I've listened to so much shit on this site: ie Casein is a quick absorbable protein, the 400 cal per day diet, 2h-3h morning cardios on an empty stomach, the diet consisting simply of 6 whey + flax oil meals, etc.)
May I ask you something? Because I'm cutting for a photo session, what is the carb depletion trick?
You said that on monday looked fuller after your cheat day. How can I reach my photo session looking fuller but still very ripped?
I'm not on a Keto diet. I'm on a high protein, low carbs, moderate fat diet
M
Mr.X
Guest
Vageta said:
Dear Vageta,
First of all, let's look at what you said in your second paragraph and I quote, "
Contrary to what Mr. X says you should carb load on your free day when partaking in ANY kind of reduced carb diets, not only ketogenic ones like the "Anabolic Diet". The reason you carb load on ketogenic diets is because your glycogen stores become depleted during the week and if you try to lift weights with no glycogen stores you'll find it's damn near impossible."
Now let's see, I definitely said, there should be a cheat day for a high protein, low-carb diet and I also stated in my previous post that on the "anabolic diet", a person should have a Carb-Up..NOT a cheat day.
Now, let me explain to you why one should not have a cheat day but instead a strict to the dot Carb-Up on the "anabolic diet."
What happens when you are in Ketosis is simple: your body burns up all muscle glycogen because you eat no carbohydrates to refill those glycogen stores, and, assuming your fat intake is sufficient, you will start burning fat. Well, when the "carb-up" day rolls around, there is a reason you DO NOT HAVE FAT with your high glycemic carbs in those first few hours, and that simple reason is INSULIN.
Let me explain to you, Vageta, the incredible workings of insulin and what it does: What happens when you have those high-glycemic carbs, the first 6 hours of your carb-up, is your insulin will HIGHLY SPIKE causing (I'll put this in words everyone can understand) your RECEPTOR SITES FOR EVERYTHING to OPEN. So, if you are eating Carbs=Glycogen then the glycogen is stored in the muscle, when you add protein to it then, in turn, protein is stored in the muscle. Now, here's the IMPORTANT PART: if you eat FAT in those crucial Carb-Up hours, it WILL be stored as FAT because your FAT receptor cells ARE OPENED BY THE INSULIN SPIKE. In fact, after 12 hours, studies have shown that people that keep up the high carbs along with high fats can, as a consequence, gain 1-1.5 lb of fat back.
I'm not saying have absolutely NO FAT the WHOLE day, but keep the FAT near zero in those few crucial hours. Plus, I am not the only one that supports this theory, people like Lyle McDonald, DiPasquale and a lot of other people that I do not wish to list (Dan), surely support this theory of dieting and have written it numerous of times.
One last thing Vageta, (I'm not trying to put you down or be rude in any, way, shape or form). And I quote, "I have had a free day every single week, and half of them I've went to bed almost sick from eating so much. And you know what? I've lost at least 9-10 lbs of fat, which included an 8mm drop in my abdominal skinfold measurement. " Well, my dear, I give you thumbs up for loosing all that weight, but maybe if you did not goto bed from all the over eating you weight loss could have amounted to let's say 20lbs in that same time. I've personally trained numerous people that have lost 12-15 lbs of body-fat, yes body fat, in as short of a time as 3 weeks. Now, what is my little secret? Simple, I don't let them BINGE like crazy, although they get to eat carbohydrates, it becomes "a controlled" binge. Please understand that what you said is correct, but, at the same time, you tried to say that I was wrong, where I basically stated the same theory.
Remember: The One that speaks too fast, shalln't be the one to solve the problem.
P.S. YOUR METABOLISM DOES NOT SHUT DOWN! But, it slows down drastically.
Happy Memoria Day!!!
My 2cents
Mr.X
[email protected]
Mr.X is correct. Fat must be kept low during the carb-up.
During the carb-up limit fat to as little as possible; less than 20gms for the day. Like fat, protein should also be restricted during the carb-up as it serves little purpose at this stage of the macronutrient cycle.
To put it simply: fat is only fattening when insulin levels are high. Read that last sentence again, and again, and again. This is why 50% of North Americans are obese - they just don't get it this important concept.
I've been tinkering with many varations of the ketogenic diet over the last 3-4 years, and for me, the best cycle is one high carbohydrate meal every 3-4 days as opposed to weekends only - all day. Rather having to wait a week to eat carbs, I can eat one meal (last meal of the day) of carbs every 3 or 4 days. This ensures glycogen levels are never maxed, and I get into ketosis quickly as possible without suffering ill effects in my workouts. Mind you, I never have to stick to this restricted eating cycle for longer than 6-8 weeks in order to drop from 13% bodyfat to 7%. Works like a charm everytime. After summer ends, I gradually go back to 13% bodyfat, but for those 4-5 months, I am ripped to the bone.
During the carb-up limit fat to as little as possible; less than 20gms for the day. Like fat, protein should also be restricted during the carb-up as it serves little purpose at this stage of the macronutrient cycle.
To put it simply: fat is only fattening when insulin levels are high. Read that last sentence again, and again, and again. This is why 50% of North Americans are obese - they just don't get it this important concept.
I've been tinkering with many varations of the ketogenic diet over the last 3-4 years, and for me, the best cycle is one high carbohydrate meal every 3-4 days as opposed to weekends only - all day. Rather having to wait a week to eat carbs, I can eat one meal (last meal of the day) of carbs every 3 or 4 days. This ensures glycogen levels are never maxed, and I get into ketosis quickly as possible without suffering ill effects in my workouts. Mind you, I never have to stick to this restricted eating cycle for longer than 6-8 weeks in order to drop from 13% bodyfat to 7%. Works like a charm everytime. After summer ends, I gradually go back to 13% bodyfat, but for those 4-5 months, I am ripped to the bone.
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Ummmm, it looks like everyone is trying to say the same thing. I read Vageta's post to mean that he endorses a high carb cheat once a week. I assumed he meant low fat as well, but I'll let him speak for himself. I mostly diet in the 100-150g carbs per day which is pretty low carbs for me. And I have a high carb very lowfat cheat meal every 4 days like Rudee. If I'm not losing at least 2lbs per week I am very disappointed with my results. I think intelligent cheat meals are better than just cheating like a pig. Intelligent, as Mr X and Rudee said, is not mixing high carbs with high fat. Simple and effective.
Well it does look like we are all trying to say the same thing so let me clear a few things up. First of all I did say to keep fat intake lower on the free day, but you don't have to shoot for zero. Just get some EFAs to keep your body functioning optimally. I don't think there is some magic 4 hour window for keeping fat low. You cannot fill glycogen stores in 4 hours, in fact you may not do it in 12 hours which is why some do a 2 day carb up. Your body can only store so much glycogen in a short amount of time, thus you should eat carbs every couple of hours during your carb up day. Bodyopus has some strict intructions on this, which may be beneficial, but they make the carb up a chore to say the least. Since you can't fill glycogen stores in 4 hours I don't see why fat intake is any more dangerous during this time than it is during the rest of the day. Now I don't mean to say that fat intake should be high by any means, it should be low all day long. However I don't think having a little fat in the first few meals is cause for concern. If you have sufficiently depleted glycogen stores during the week then all or at least the majority of carbs you intake during this period should go to fill glycogen stores while any fat you intake will be used for energy, along with stored bodyfat. My first meal of my carb up day is almost always pancakes or waffles in which I also add peanut butter to them(EFAs). I also love to make a homemade Boboli pizza where I add a little bit of Olive oil on the crust(EFAs) and some black olives to the toppings(again EFAs). These however are good fats and and I tend to use lowfat or nonfat cheese for the toppings and something like turkey pepperoni which is lowfat.
There is also confusion between cheat days and carb ups. Personally I was using the terms to mean the same thing but to be specific I do mean carb up. Cheat day would definately refer to a free for all, whereas a carb up has more structure. Since I was referring to a high carb/low fat cheat day I assumed that meant that the cheat day wasn't without limitations.
While you could definatley measure everything and shoot for specific guidelines on your carb up day, I personally don't. And Mr X. you are correct. Had I followed an exact set of guidelines on my carb ups, or perhaps never had a carb up, my progress might be better. Or it might be worse, it's one of those things you never know. However I will say that I'd prefer to enjoy my free days as they make the diet that much easier to follow. Knowing that I am going to eat what I want on Sunday makes it very easy to fight any cravings during the week.
Personally I'd rather take 14 weeks to lose a given number of fat, while enjoying my weekend than losing the same amount of fat in 12 weeks but following a perfectly strict diet and not being able to quell any cravings I may have had. This also makes coming off the diet that much easier.
Oh and you also mentioned what Lyle M. has advocated. You should also know that he advocates refeeds/cheat day/carb up, whatever you want to call it, much more often than I mentioned. He also has less structure to it, basically saying high carb, low fat, moderate protein and go a bit over maintenance. This has a lot to do with Leptin levels than simply refilliling glycogen stores.
In the end we are all basically saying the same things, we just advocate perhaps a different method. My main point was carb up days are not just for ketogenic diets, but instead for any diets where carbs are limited and glycogen stores are therefore depleted. I feel there is no need to take any diet to extreme levels until the body calls for it. If you can lose fat steadily why incorporating a free day then by all means do it. If fat loss slows to a crawl you should think about being more structured on the free day.
There is also confusion between cheat days and carb ups. Personally I was using the terms to mean the same thing but to be specific I do mean carb up. Cheat day would definately refer to a free for all, whereas a carb up has more structure. Since I was referring to a high carb/low fat cheat day I assumed that meant that the cheat day wasn't without limitations.
While you could definatley measure everything and shoot for specific guidelines on your carb up day, I personally don't. And Mr X. you are correct. Had I followed an exact set of guidelines on my carb ups, or perhaps never had a carb up, my progress might be better. Or it might be worse, it's one of those things you never know. However I will say that I'd prefer to enjoy my free days as they make the diet that much easier to follow. Knowing that I am going to eat what I want on Sunday makes it very easy to fight any cravings during the week.
Personally I'd rather take 14 weeks to lose a given number of fat, while enjoying my weekend than losing the same amount of fat in 12 weeks but following a perfectly strict diet and not being able to quell any cravings I may have had. This also makes coming off the diet that much easier.
Oh and you also mentioned what Lyle M. has advocated. You should also know that he advocates refeeds/cheat day/carb up, whatever you want to call it, much more often than I mentioned. He also has less structure to it, basically saying high carb, low fat, moderate protein and go a bit over maintenance. This has a lot to do with Leptin levels than simply refilliling glycogen stores.
In the end we are all basically saying the same things, we just advocate perhaps a different method. My main point was carb up days are not just for ketogenic diets, but instead for any diets where carbs are limited and glycogen stores are therefore depleted. I feel there is no need to take any diet to extreme levels until the body calls for it. If you can lose fat steadily why incorporating a free day then by all means do it. If fat loss slows to a crawl you should think about being more structured on the free day.
Mr. X,
I must disagree with you. The most recent medical research dealing with body composition shows that a refeed should consist of a good deal of carbs WITH some fat. The reasoning is to cause a transient stimulus for adipocyte genesis that will sequelae into up-regulated Leptin levels. Thus, with this combination of macronutrient you will 1) get the glycogen influx into your myocytes you spoke of and 2)get a greater increase in Leptin levels than you would had you consumed glucose predecessors alone. No doubt there may be greater "risk" for lipogenesis, but this is counter-acted by the higher leptin levels leading to POMC ligand adhesion and thus a more pronounced lipolytic effect once you resume your calorie restricted diet. Furthermore, this protocol applies for any type of hypocaloric nutritional plan wether its a ketogenic, high protein, or isocaloric diet. Please feel free to peruse Pub Med or your local University medical library for the specific periodicals pertaining to this matter, the articles should be relatively fascile to locate, and they will help to further your investigation and subsequent understanding of this matter. Thanks.
I must disagree with you. The most recent medical research dealing with body composition shows that a refeed should consist of a good deal of carbs WITH some fat. The reasoning is to cause a transient stimulus for adipocyte genesis that will sequelae into up-regulated Leptin levels. Thus, with this combination of macronutrient you will 1) get the glycogen influx into your myocytes you spoke of and 2)get a greater increase in Leptin levels than you would had you consumed glucose predecessors alone. No doubt there may be greater "risk" for lipogenesis, but this is counter-acted by the higher leptin levels leading to POMC ligand adhesion and thus a more pronounced lipolytic effect once you resume your calorie restricted diet. Furthermore, this protocol applies for any type of hypocaloric nutritional plan wether its a ketogenic, high protein, or isocaloric diet. Please feel free to peruse Pub Med or your local University medical library for the specific periodicals pertaining to this matter, the articles should be relatively fascile to locate, and they will help to further your investigation and subsequent understanding of this matter. Thanks.
I can relate to what Vageta says. The psychological side is the hardest in anything, and if I'd to live the rest of my life knowing there won't be one day in which I can eat whatever I want, then probable I'd have laready given up. But I'm going to be very strict this time, and for the next two carb ups, because I really don't want to mess up these photos.
M
Mr.X
Guest
Dear gay,
I can definitely agree with you in GENERAL only although, I apologize for saying this, I personally think you are an idiot. How do you expect for people besides vets. like me, MS, Rudee (sorry if I missed some vets) to understand your 'sophisticated' writing. Please take your big-head somewhere else, or better yet shove it in your ass. I usually stay very professional but you seriously got me on the wrong day Mr.Gy.
Also, I do not see any references of any studies that can back up your theory that fat is necessary for "better" results on the carb-up.
Furthermore, I stated that NO fat should be consumed in the first 4 hours, because my personal belief is that the first 4 hours is the time with the highest glycogen uptake. Now, if you read Bodyopus by Dan Duchaine, you will realize that what I'm saying is true. I also want to mention that fat intake ok as long as it's kept LOW (as I've stated before). For example: if you are taking in 700 carbs, fat intake should be no more then 70...i.e. 10:1 ratio, which brings us to the conclusion that a 40 carb meal can have no more then 4 grams of fat. The study below backs up my above stated theory.
Here's what I have for you:
In a study I have actually worked with and recreated: individuals consumed a low-carb, high fat diet for 5 days and then consumed very large amounts of carbohydrates (700 to 900 grams per day) over a five day period. During the first 24 hours, with a carbohydrate intake of 700 grams and a fat intake of 60 grams per day, there was a fat gain of only 7 grams. This indicates that the body continued to use fat for fuel during this time period. In the second 24 hours, with an intake of 800 grams of carbohydrate and a fat intake of 97 grams, there was a fat gain of 127 grams indicating that the body had shifted out of 'fat burning' mode as muscle glycogen stores became full.
----translation: if 1 lb of fat is around 400 g, you have just gained around 1/3 of a pound on a CONTROLLED carb-up.----
REF: Acheson, K.J. et. al. "Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man" Am J Clin Nutr (1988) 48: 240-247.
Study 2: S.Woodemar, PhD. R.Adams PhD. "Amount of bodyfat gained while Massive overfeeding occurs, consisting of: fats,carbohydrates,and proteins." Pacific Nutritional Studies (2000)
When individuals consumed a low-carb, high fat diet for 5 days and then consumed very large amounts of carbohydrates (1000 to 1200 grams per day) over a two day period. During the first 24 hours, with a carbohydrate intake of 1000 grams and a fat intake of 300 grams per day, there was a fat gain of 200 grams. This indicates that the body continued to use some fat for fuel during this time period. In the second 24 hours, with an intake of 1200 grams of carbohydrate and a fat intake of 450 grams, there was a fat gain of over 450 grams indicating that the body had shifted out of 'fat burning' mode as muscle glycogen stores became full.
On the 3rd day with the subjects switching back to their normal diets there was a fat gain of 120-150 grams. Suggesting to us that overfeeding with carbohydrates and fats (more commonly called Cheat days or Binges in bodybuilding) is very counterproductive in loosing weight. Also, I'd like to mention one important fact, which is that the fat gain over the 2 days of the "binge" was close to 800g. 800g can amount to about 2 lb of bodyfat.
I would also like to apologize for not being professional in the beginning of the post. But, I just can't believe how people can come on a board where we try to help and post these wannabe 'sophisticated' statements, which help NOONE and are used as a tool to generate arguments.
Sorry guys that I took this to heart too much)
My2cents
Mr.X
I can definitely agree with you in GENERAL only although, I apologize for saying this, I personally think you are an idiot. How do you expect for people besides vets. like me, MS, Rudee (sorry if I missed some vets) to understand your 'sophisticated' writing. Please take your big-head somewhere else, or better yet shove it in your ass. I usually stay very professional but you seriously got me on the wrong day Mr.Gy.
Also, I do not see any references of any studies that can back up your theory that fat is necessary for "better" results on the carb-up.
Furthermore, I stated that NO fat should be consumed in the first 4 hours, because my personal belief is that the first 4 hours is the time with the highest glycogen uptake. Now, if you read Bodyopus by Dan Duchaine, you will realize that what I'm saying is true. I also want to mention that fat intake ok as long as it's kept LOW (as I've stated before). For example: if you are taking in 700 carbs, fat intake should be no more then 70...i.e. 10:1 ratio, which brings us to the conclusion that a 40 carb meal can have no more then 4 grams of fat. The study below backs up my above stated theory.
Here's what I have for you:
In a study I have actually worked with and recreated: individuals consumed a low-carb, high fat diet for 5 days and then consumed very large amounts of carbohydrates (700 to 900 grams per day) over a five day period. During the first 24 hours, with a carbohydrate intake of 700 grams and a fat intake of 60 grams per day, there was a fat gain of only 7 grams. This indicates that the body continued to use fat for fuel during this time period. In the second 24 hours, with an intake of 800 grams of carbohydrate and a fat intake of 97 grams, there was a fat gain of 127 grams indicating that the body had shifted out of 'fat burning' mode as muscle glycogen stores became full.
----translation: if 1 lb of fat is around 400 g, you have just gained around 1/3 of a pound on a CONTROLLED carb-up.----
REF: Acheson, K.J. et. al. "Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man" Am J Clin Nutr (1988) 48: 240-247.
Study 2: S.Woodemar, PhD. R.Adams PhD. "Amount of bodyfat gained while Massive overfeeding occurs, consisting of: fats,carbohydrates,and proteins." Pacific Nutritional Studies (2000)
When individuals consumed a low-carb, high fat diet for 5 days and then consumed very large amounts of carbohydrates (1000 to 1200 grams per day) over a two day period. During the first 24 hours, with a carbohydrate intake of 1000 grams and a fat intake of 300 grams per day, there was a fat gain of 200 grams. This indicates that the body continued to use some fat for fuel during this time period. In the second 24 hours, with an intake of 1200 grams of carbohydrate and a fat intake of 450 grams, there was a fat gain of over 450 grams indicating that the body had shifted out of 'fat burning' mode as muscle glycogen stores became full.
On the 3rd day with the subjects switching back to their normal diets there was a fat gain of 120-150 grams. Suggesting to us that overfeeding with carbohydrates and fats (more commonly called Cheat days or Binges in bodybuilding) is very counterproductive in loosing weight. Also, I'd like to mention one important fact, which is that the fat gain over the 2 days of the "binge" was close to 800g. 800g can amount to about 2 lb of bodyfat.
I would also like to apologize for not being professional in the beginning of the post. But, I just can't believe how people can come on a board where we try to help and post these wannabe 'sophisticated' statements, which help NOONE and are used as a tool to generate arguments.
Sorry guys that I took this to heart too much
)My2cents
Mr.X
Maximum Intensity
New member
I have found that cheat days really help me. When I get ready for shows, I have I meal of whatever I want until I am about six weeks out. Then I use what I call "controlled cheat meals" twice a week. They usually consist of very high amounts of carbs. The cheat meals really kick start my metabolism.
This has made very interesting reading
Not only have I been glued to this thread, it have learned so much.
p.s Without being remotely patronising in any way, and I mean this with all due respect because I think you are incredibly intelligent and informative, but Mr X......you kill me !!! LOL
Sheena
Not only have I been glued to this thread, it have learned so much.
p.s Without being remotely patronising in any way, and I mean this with all due respect because I think you are incredibly intelligent and informative, but Mr X......you kill me !!! LOL
Sheena
Mr X,
I'm not going to get into what you and gy were arguing about, that's between you and him. I've read the same studies you are referring to, or ones that are very similar. The type of carbup I am referring to is the first 24 hours of study 1. I only eat about 75-80 grams of fat during my high fat days, and I eat less than that on my "free day".
There is no doubt in my mind that doing a 2nd 24 hour carb up, especially with that much fat is going to slow progress. And as for the 2nd study, that is just plain going to extremes. Just looking at what these people ate it's no wonder they gained so much fat back. 1000-1200g of carbs, 300-450g of fat in 1 day? That's like 7000 calories minimum and they didn't even mention how much protein was eaten. With that kind of caloric surplus, especially over a 2 day period I don't think it's news to anyone what kind of fat gain is going to occur. I think that study is flawed in that the simple law of thermodynamics, ie: energy balance, will come into play and where the calories come from is of no concern. 1200 calories in carbs 2 days straight more than likely far exceeds what is needed to fill glycogen stores and would cause to fat gain regardless of the fat intake along with it. I mean 450 grams of fat alone is around 4000 calories which is more than anyone can lose weight on during a diet, even a ketogenic one.
I only advocated a controlled cheat day once a week with the basic guidelines of high carb, low fat, moderate protein. I don't even think I could eat as much as in study 2 without causing myself to puke. Study 1, day 1 is more of what i had in mind. No fat is necessarily lost that day, however no damage is done either. What you've accomplished is refilled glycogen stores to aid in weight training for the following week, enjoyed foods you couldn't touch during the week and also indirectly affected leptin levels in a positive manner. With all these pluses with no negatives I don't see why anyone wouldn't attempt this.
The only thing that could be taken as a negative is that for 1 day you don't lose any fat. So all things considered if you did this carb up day for 12 weeks versus someone who never did it, they could "possibly" have 12 extra days of fat loss compared to you. That's assuming all things are equal which they probably aren't. Without the carb ups you are going to have less productive workouts, a harder time controlling cravings and your metabolism will most likely slow down faster. Even if you take the 12 days extra fat loss as a given, I'd still prefer to simply diet for 2 weeks longer while having enjoyed the 12 free days during the diet. And like I said I'm not convinced the total difference in weight loss would be that dramatic. The free day may have other benefits that we haven't fully understood yet.
I'm not going to get into what you and gy were arguing about, that's between you and him. I've read the same studies you are referring to, or ones that are very similar. The type of carbup I am referring to is the first 24 hours of study 1. I only eat about 75-80 grams of fat during my high fat days, and I eat less than that on my "free day".
There is no doubt in my mind that doing a 2nd 24 hour carb up, especially with that much fat is going to slow progress. And as for the 2nd study, that is just plain going to extremes. Just looking at what these people ate it's no wonder they gained so much fat back. 1000-1200g of carbs, 300-450g of fat in 1 day? That's like 7000 calories minimum and they didn't even mention how much protein was eaten. With that kind of caloric surplus, especially over a 2 day period I don't think it's news to anyone what kind of fat gain is going to occur. I think that study is flawed in that the simple law of thermodynamics, ie: energy balance, will come into play and where the calories come from is of no concern. 1200 calories in carbs 2 days straight more than likely far exceeds what is needed to fill glycogen stores and would cause to fat gain regardless of the fat intake along with it. I mean 450 grams of fat alone is around 4000 calories which is more than anyone can lose weight on during a diet, even a ketogenic one.
I only advocated a controlled cheat day once a week with the basic guidelines of high carb, low fat, moderate protein. I don't even think I could eat as much as in study 2 without causing myself to puke. Study 1, day 1 is more of what i had in mind. No fat is necessarily lost that day, however no damage is done either. What you've accomplished is refilled glycogen stores to aid in weight training for the following week, enjoyed foods you couldn't touch during the week and also indirectly affected leptin levels in a positive manner. With all these pluses with no negatives I don't see why anyone wouldn't attempt this.
The only thing that could be taken as a negative is that for 1 day you don't lose any fat. So all things considered if you did this carb up day for 12 weeks versus someone who never did it, they could "possibly" have 12 extra days of fat loss compared to you. That's assuming all things are equal which they probably aren't. Without the carb ups you are going to have less productive workouts, a harder time controlling cravings and your metabolism will most likely slow down faster. Even if you take the 12 days extra fat loss as a given, I'd still prefer to simply diet for 2 weeks longer while having enjoyed the 12 free days during the diet. And like I said I'm not convinced the total difference in weight loss would be that dramatic. The free day may have other benefits that we haven't fully understood yet.
M
Mr.X
Guest
Guys and Gals, I think this has gone far enough.
Let's all agree to a 1 controlled cheat day, where a person doesn't GO CRAZY and eat 1200 carbs and 450g fat, is a good idea. Both mentally and physically...period...
NOTE to everyone: I would just like to say that a 225lb bodybuilder, that has been through bulking and dieting numerous times, CAN eat upwards of 10,000 cal a day. Trust me) I know (I have eaten over 6,500 when bulking->all 'clean' food)
Vageta, MS, Rudee34 and even Mr.Gay, which all contributed to this very educating thread, I'd like to thank personally. Because, a question with no answer, is't like a person with no heart.
My2cents
Mr.X
Let's all agree to a 1 controlled cheat day, where a person doesn't GO CRAZY and eat 1200 carbs and 450g fat, is a good idea. Both mentally and physically...period...
NOTE to everyone: I would just like to say that a 225lb bodybuilder, that has been through bulking and dieting numerous times, CAN eat upwards of 10,000 cal a day. Trust me
) I know (I have eaten over 6,500 when bulking->all 'clean' food) Vageta, MS, Rudee34 and even Mr.Gay, which all contributed to this very educating thread, I'd like to thank personally. Because, a question with no answer, is't like a person with no heart.
My2cents
Mr.X
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Id like to state that DiPasquale suggests completely different macronutrients ratios than the ones you talk about:
Weekdays 55-60% fat ; 30-35% protein ; 5-8% carbs
Weekends (36-48h carb load) 30-40% fat ; 10-15% protein ; 45-60% carbs
This has been copied exactly as it is from his book "The Anabolic Diet". He give a much higher percentage in fat than what you said.
Weekdays 55-60% fat ; 30-35% protein ; 5-8% carbs
Weekends (36-48h carb load) 30-40% fat ; 10-15% protein ; 45-60% carbs
This has been copied exactly as it is from his book "The Anabolic Diet". He give a much higher percentage in fat than what you said.
