cheat day when cutting

[gy]

Mr. X,

I must disagree with you. The most recent medical research dealing with body composition shows that a refeed should consist of a good deal of carbs WITH some fat. The reasoning is to cause a transient stimulus for adipocyte genesis that will sequelae into up-regulated Leptin levels. Thus, with this combination of macronutrient you will 1) get the glycogen influx into your myocytes you spoke of and 2)get a greater increase in Leptin levels than you would had you consumed glucose predecessors alone. No doubt there may be greater "risk" for lipogenesis, but this is counter-acted by the higher leptin levels leading to POMC ligand adhesion and thus a more pronounced lipolytic effect once you resume your calorie restricted diet. Furthermore, this protocol applies for any type of hypocaloric nutritional plan wether its a ketogenic, high protein, or isocaloric diet. Please feel free to peruse Pub Med or your local University medical library for the specific periodicals pertaining to this matter, the articles should be relatively fascile to locate, and they will help to further your investigation and subsequent understanding of this matter. Thanks.

 

[maxb01]

However I will say that I'd prefer to enjoy my free days as they make the diet that much easier to follow. Knowing that I am going to eat what I want on Sunday makes it very easy to fight any cravings during the week.

I can relate to what Vageta says. The psychological side is the hardest in anything, and if I'd to live the rest of my life knowing there won't be one day in which I can eat whatever I want, then probable I'd have laready given up. But I'm going to be very strict this time, and for the next two carb ups, because I really don't want to mess up these photos.

 

[Mr.X]

Dear gay,

I can definitely agree with you in GENERAL only although, I apologize for saying this, I personally think you are an idiot. How do you expect for people besides vets. like me, MS, Rudee (sorry if I missed some vets) to understand your 'sophisticated' writing. Please take your big-head somewhere else, or better yet shove it in your ass. I usually stay very professional but you seriously got me on the wrong day Mr.Gy.
Also, I do not see any references of any studies that can back up your theory that fat is necessary for "better" results on the carb-up.
Furthermore, I stated that NO fat should be consumed in the first 4 hours, because my personal belief is that the first 4 hours is the time with the highest glycogen uptake. Now, if you read Bodyopus by Dan Duchaine, you will realize that what I'm saying is true. I also want to mention that fat intake ok as long as it's kept LOW (as I've stated before). For example: if you are taking in 700 carbs, fat intake should be no more then 70...i.e. 10:1 ratio, which brings us to the conclusion that a 40 carb meal can have no more then 4 grams of fat. The study below backs up my above stated theory.

Here's what I have for you:
In a study I have actually worked with and recreated: individuals consumed a low-carb, high fat diet for 5 days and then consumed very large amounts of carbohydrates (700 to 900 grams per day) over a five day period. During the first 24 hours, with a carbohydrate intake of 700 grams and a fat intake of 60 grams per day, there was a fat gain of only 7 grams. This indicates that the body continued to use fat for fuel during this time period. In the second 24 hours, with an intake of 800 grams of carbohydrate and a fat intake of 97 grams, there was a fat gain of 127 grams indicating that the body had shifted out of 'fat burning' mode as muscle glycogen stores became full.
----translation: if 1 lb of fat is around 400 g, you have just gained around 1/3 of a pound on a CONTROLLED carb-up.----
REF: Acheson, K.J. et. al. "Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man" Am J Clin Nutr (1988) 48: 240-247.

Study 2: S.Woodemar, PhD. R.Adams PhD. "Amount of bodyfat gained while Massive overfeeding occurs, consisting of: fats,carbohydrates,and proteins." Pacific Nutritional Studies (2000)
When individuals consumed a low-carb, high fat diet for 5 days and then consumed very large amounts of carbohydrates (1000 to 1200 grams per day) over a two day period. During the first 24 hours, with a carbohydrate intake of 1000 grams and a fat intake of 300 grams per day, there was a fat gain of 200 grams. This indicates that the body continued to use some fat for fuel during this time period. In the second 24 hours, with an intake of 1200 grams of carbohydrate and a fat intake of 450 grams, there was a fat gain of over 450 grams indicating that the body had shifted out of 'fat burning' mode as muscle glycogen stores became full.
On the 3rd day with the subjects switching back to their normal diets there was a fat gain of 120-150 grams. Suggesting to us that overfeeding with carbohydrates and fats (more commonly called Cheat days or Binges in bodybuilding) is very counterproductive in loosing weight. Also, I'd like to mention one important fact, which is that the fat gain over the 2 days of the "binge" was close to 800g. 800g can amount to about 2 lb of bodyfat.

I would also like to apologize for not being professional in the beginning of the post. But, I just can't believe how people can come on a board where we try to help and post these wannabe 'sophisticated' statements, which help NOONE and are used as a tool to generate arguments.
Sorry guys that I took this to heart too much )
My2cents
Mr.X

 

[Maximum Intensity]

I have found that cheat days really help me. When I get ready for shows, I have I meal of whatever I want until I am about six weeks out. Then I use what I call "controlled cheat meals" twice a week. They usually consist of very high amounts of carbs. The cheat meals really kick start my metabolism.

 

[Sheena]

This has made very interesting reading

Not only have I been glued to this thread, it have learned so much.

p.s Without being remotely patronising in any way, and I mean this with all due respect because I think you are incredibly intelligent and informative, but Mr X......you kill me !!! LOL


Sheena

 

[Vageta]

Mr X,

I'm not going to get into what you and gy were arguing about, that's between you and him. I've read the same studies you are referring to, or ones that are very similar. The type of carbup I am referring to is the first 24 hours of study 1. I only eat about 75-80 grams of fat during my high fat days, and I eat less than that on my "free day".

There is no doubt in my mind that doing a 2nd 24 hour carb up, especially with that much fat is going to slow progress. And as for the 2nd study, that is just plain going to extremes. Just looking at what these people ate it's no wonder they gained so much fat back. 1000-1200g of carbs, 300-450g of fat in 1 day? That's like 7000 calories minimum and they didn't even mention how much protein was eaten. With that kind of caloric surplus, especially over a 2 day period I don't think it's news to anyone what kind of fat gain is going to occur. I think that study is flawed in that the simple law of thermodynamics, ie: energy balance, will come into play and where the calories come from is of no concern. 1200 calories in carbs 2 days straight more than likely far exceeds what is needed to fill glycogen stores and would cause to fat gain regardless of the fat intake along with it. I mean 450 grams of fat alone is around 4000 calories which is more than anyone can lose weight on during a diet, even a ketogenic one.

I only advocated a controlled cheat day once a week with the basic guidelines of high carb, low fat, moderate protein. I don't even think I could eat as much as in study 2 without causing myself to puke. Study 1, day 1 is more of what i had in mind. No fat is necessarily lost that day, however no damage is done either. What you've accomplished is refilled glycogen stores to aid in weight training for the following week, enjoyed foods you couldn't touch during the week and also indirectly affected leptin levels in a positive manner. With all these pluses with no negatives I don't see why anyone wouldn't attempt this.

The only thing that could be taken as a negative is that for 1 day you don't lose any fat. So all things considered if you did this carb up day for 12 weeks versus someone who never did it, they could "possibly" have 12 extra days of fat loss compared to you. That's assuming all things are equal which they probably aren't. Without the carb ups you are going to have less productive workouts, a harder time controlling cravings and your metabolism will most likely slow down faster. Even if you take the 12 days extra fat loss as a given, I'd still prefer to simply diet for 2 weeks longer while having enjoyed the 12 free days during the diet. And like I said I'm not convinced the total difference in weight loss would be that dramatic. The free day may have other benefits that we haven't fully understood yet.

 

[Mr.X]

Guys and Gals, I think this has gone far enough.
Let's all agree to a 1 controlled cheat day, where a person doesn't GO CRAZY and eat 1200 carbs and 450g fat, is a good idea. Both mentally and physically...period...

NOTE to everyone: I would just like to say that a 225lb bodybuilder, that has been through bulking and dieting numerous times, CAN eat upwards of 10,000 cal a day. Trust me ) I know (I have eaten over 6,500 when bulking->all 'clean' food)

Vageta, MS, Rudee34 and even Mr.Gay, which all contributed to this very educating thread, I'd like to thank personally. Because, a question with no answer, is't like a person with no heart.
My2cents
Mr.X

 

[Vageta]

Agreed. I enjoy intelligent conversations as well.

 

[maxb01]

Id like to state that DiPasquale suggests completely different macronutrients ratios than the ones you talk about:

Weekdays 55-60% fat ; 30-35% protein ; 5-8% carbs
Weekends (36-48h carb load) 30-40% fat ; 10-15% protein ; 45-60% carbs

This has been copied exactly as it is from his book "The Anabolic Diet". He give a much higher percentage in fat than what you said.