Can Proviron CAUSE gyno?

[Krazykat]

I posted this on cuttingedgemuscle and Nandi12 reckons it could since it increases the estrogen to androgen level according to him!

Although to my knowledge it has not been documented in the medical literature specifically for Proviron, there is a well established mechanism whereby drugs that bind strongly to SHBG can cause gyno. Both estrogen and testosterone circulate bound to SHBG; however estrogen is bound much less strongly than testosterone, so agents like Proviron preferentially displace estrogen rather than testosterone from SHBG, leading to higher circulating levels of free estrogens. This phenomenon is discussed here:
http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm
DISPLACEMENT OF ESTROGENS FROM SHBG
Another cause of gynecomastia from estrogen excess includes steroid displacement from sex-hormone binding globulin (SHBG). SHBG binds androgens more avidly than estrogen. Thus, any condition or drug that can displace steroids from SHBG, will more easily displace estrogen, allowing for higher circulating levels of estrogen.

People`s opinon?

 

[Mini Viper]

hmmm..this is interesting??

why would proviron give you gyno when its supposed to be anti-e to prevent it!

Proviron info:

Although this steroid is strongly androgenic, the anabolic effect of it is considered too weak for muscle building purposes. This is due to the fact that Proviron is rapidly reduced to inactive metabolites in muscle tissue, a trait also characteristic of dihydrotestosterone, The belief that the weak anabolic nature of this compound indicated a tendency to block the androgen receptor in muscle tissue, thereby reducing the gains of other more potent muscle building steroids, should likewise not be taken seriously. In fact due to its extremely high affinity for plasma binding proteins such as SHBG, Proviron may actually work to potentate the activity of other steroids by displacing a higher percentage into a free, unbound state. Among athletes Proviron is primarily used as an antiestrogen. It is believed to act as an antiaromatase in the body, preventing or slowing the conversion of steroids into estrogen. The result is somewhat comparable to Arimidex (though less profound), the drug acting to prevent the buildup of estrogen in the body. This is in contrast to Nolvadex, which only blocks the ability of estrogen to bind and activate receptors in certain tissues. The anti-aromatization effect is preferred, as it is a more direct and efficient means of dealing with the problem of estrogenic side effects. A related disadvantage to Nolvadex is that if discontinued too early, a rebound effect may occur as high serum estrogen levels are again free to take action. This of course could mean a rapid onset of side effects such as gynecomastia and water retention. Most athletes actually prefer to use both Proviron and Nolvadex,especially during strongly estrogenic cycles. With each item attacking estrogen at a different angle, side effects are often greatly minimized.

Any other thoughts from anyone??

bump^^

peace bros

 

[jboldman]

my thoughts are that it has never been shown or reported to cause gyno and that it has never been demonstrated to act as an anti-e. For all these writeups touting it as an anti-e i haveyet to see one study demonstrating this. It might serve as a pro-sexual aid but for most purposes i see no reason to spend money on it, buy more test or some real anti-e's.

jb

 

[Nelson Montana]

I don't know who Nandi is, but he doesnt know what he's talking about. Proviron is basically DHT and DHT can not aromatize.

DHT also slows the conversion of T to e, making it a very effective anti e.

 

[Mini Viper]

Thanks Nelson, it backs me up nicely that proviron is an effective anti-e.

karma for you bro

 

[Krazykat]

hey guys

thanks for the response

nandi`s point it to do with its shbg binding properties. His argument is since shbg binds to estrogen less well than testosterone then when proviron binds to it, more estrogen is released than testosterone from it. Thats his argument.....

 

[Nelson Montana]

hey guys

thanks for the response

nandi`s point it to do with its shbg binding properties. His argument is since shbg binds to estrogen less well than testosterone then when proviron binds to it, more estrogen is released than testosterone from it. Thats his argument.....

What?

 

[Krazykat]

check out my original post its what he wrote!

 

[Krazykat]

BUmp!

 

[twistedneck]

My two questions:

1. Does this mean all drugs that displace steroids at SHBG potentially relase more estrogen than androgen?
2. Does the remaining unbound DHT from Proviron increase the estrogen to androgen ratio enough to stop any estrogen effects?

From article above:
NON-TUMOR CAUSES OF ESTROGEN EXCESS

DISPLACEMENT OF ESTROGENS FROM SHBG

Another cause of gynecomastia from estrogen excess includes steroid displacement from sex-hormone binding globulin (SHBG). SHBG binds androgens more avidly than estrogen. Thus, any condition or drug that can displace steroids from SHBG, will more easily displace estrogen, allowing for higher circulating levels of estrogen. Drugs can cause gynecomastia by numerous mechanisms besides displacement from SHBG. These drugs and their mechanisms will be addressed in a subsequent section.

 

[Nelson Montana]

But Proviron supresses SHBG so it does the exact opposite. It revents e from forming in the first place. Is everyone not understanding this or am I missing something here?

 

[Mini Viper]

Nelson -

I undertand, because proviron prevents e from forming in the first place is what makes it such a good protection gear, better than nolvadex because I believe nolvadex only blocks the ability of estrogen to bind and activate receptors in certain tissues.

Therefore, proviron is actually one step ahead as anti-e prevention. Also means less water retention because of much lower levels of e.

cheers

 

[Krazykat]

hi nelson

u are acting exactly how I did. But Nandi`s point is that blocking SHBG means that hormones are released. Since it has a lower affinity for estrogen than testosterone then proviron will cause the SHBG to more easily displace estrogen than testosterone. As the below argument states.



Another cause of gynecomastia from estrogen excess includes steroid displacement from sex-hormone binding globulin (SHBG). SHBG binds androgens more avidly than estrogen. Thus, any condition or drug that can displace steroids from SHBG, will more easily displace estrogen, allowing for higher circulating levels of estrogen.

Also may I ask anyone for studies showing provirons effects on estrogen. i.e preventing aromitization/ blocking estrogen receptors.

Thanks

 

[Krazykat]

yeah i have heard that stuff about proviron a million times, but i am curious at nandi`s argument, plus studies showing proviron`s anti-estrogen effects.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson -

I undertand, because proviron prevents e from forming in the first place is what makes it such a good protection gear, better than nolvadex because I believe nolvadex only blocks the ability of estrogen to bind and activate receptors in certain tissues.

Therefore, proviron is actually one step ahead as anti-e prevention. Also means less water retention because of much lower levels of e.

cheers

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[jboldman]

Just because a substance is "similar" to another substance does not mean it shares all the attributes of that substance. No one is talking about aromatization and nandi did not say that proviron causes gyno he simply suggested a mechanism whereby it might.

Would you help me out here and explain how dht slows aromatization(serious question). We all know that when test is reduced by 5a there is less test around to aromatize.

jb

I don't know who Nandi is, but he doesnt know what he's talking about. Proviron is basically DHT and DHT can not aromatize.

DHT also slows the conversion of T to e, making it a very effective anti e.

 

[panerai]

my thoughts are that it has never been shown or reported to cause gyno
jb

Exactly!

 

[buckwheat1]

I believe Proviron also attaches to the aromatise more readily then testosterone which reduces the amount of estrogen created.

 

[jboldman]

Care to share a reference to back that up? thanks,

jb

I believe Proviron also attaches to the aromatise more readily then testosterone which reduces the amount of estrogen created.

 

[Quadsweep]

But Proviron supresses SHBG so it does the exact opposite. It revents e from forming in the first place. Is everyone not understanding this or am I missing something here?

Thats what I was thinking! Thats why I use it over Nolvadex. I am on proviron now 4 weeks out from the Mr.Ohio and as you will see by the pics I post later today I am not estrogenic at all! Proviron also knocks down Gyno on me faster than anything BTW.


Quad

 

[Krazykat]

Yes Proviron reduces SHBG BUT....

SHBG has a lower affinity for estrogen than testosterone.
Now since Proviron binds to SHBG so well, it sorts of pushes out the hormones that SHBG is holding.

Since SHBG has a lower affinity for estrogen than testosterone it has gives up the estrogen easier.

This argument is discussed here

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm

Secondly the testosterone that is released may well become so excessive it aromatizes thus increasing estrogen.

Sure with some people the overall effect may be good, after all some people can take say d-bol and have no estrogen side effects others do for example.

 

[Krazykat]

i`m bumping ppl havent understood the argument.

 

[unclep]

I don't know about all these studies, the only study i really trust is the one i do on myself, and i found Prooviron to decrease water retention....especially around the estrogen zones, and tighten up my muscle

so study that.


paulie

 

[Nelson Montana]

KK: I don't understand your argument. I think you're misunderstanding the role of SHBG.

If Proviron improves the free T to total ratio, how will that increase aromatization? You'll still have the same amount of aromatization T, just more of it will be usable.

I appreciate the desire to have an better understanding, but we shouldn't get so caught up in the acedemics that we lose sight of what's obvious. Proviron works.

 

[Krazykat]

ok

SHBG has less affinity for estrogen that testosterone, displacing SHBG by Proviron will therefore mean that estrogen is `given up` more easily resulting in more estrogen. This is probably quite transient and not very significant unless you have some previous gyno agitation in which it could be a problem.

Also its only free test that can be aromatized therfore increasing free test will increase aromization. However decreasing SHBG and increasing free test, also means that testosterone is excreted to a greater degree therfore it is unclear how much free test there is anyway.

Sure Proviron works for most, but anyone can appreciate individual differences. Some can do 1g of test a week and have little estrogen side effects, other do 200mg and turn into a woman. Go figure!

 

[jboldman]

hmm, and here i thought that proviron worked for very few people. Certainly not for me. You want more free test, take more test, it is cheaper and reduces shbg at the same time. You want an anti-e, take an anti-e, they are cheaper and actually work, there is no clinical proof that proviron works as an anti-e.

Of course, if it works for "you" then by all means use it if you have the spare cash. There is so much contradiction surrounding proviron, it should act as a red flag, an anti-e that might cause gyno, a non-anabolic steroid that has no growth promoting properties yet it is an effective "releaser" of testosterone a potent anabolic. Well, where is the resulting anabolism? As i said,if you buy it to use WITH exo test to free up some more test,it is cheaper just to use more test.

As a side benefit it might also help you if you suffer from inuresis.

jb

 

[max1988]

hmm, and here i thought that proviron worked for very few people. Certainly not for me. You want more free test, take more test, it is cheaper and reduces shbg at the same time. You want an anti-e, take an anti-e, they are cheaper and actually work, there is no clinical proof that proviron works as an anti-e.

Of course, if it works for "you" then by all means use it if you have the spare cash. There is so much contradiction surrounding proviron, it should act as a red flag, an anti-e that might cause gyno, a non-anabolic steroid that has no growth promoting properties yet it is an effective "releaser" of testosterone a potent anabolic. Well, where is the resulting anabolism? As i said,if you buy it to use WITH exo test to free up some more test,it is cheaper just to use more test.

As a side benefit it might also help you if you suffer from inuresis.

jb

Totally agree sorry to bring up a old thread had bloods done few times we're I'm on deca only with winstrol 100mg a day and gyno appeared what first comes to mind is deca but bloods came back high esotrgen low progestrone.. Shbg really low doc said when shbg becomes low it releases high free test which will convert to oestrogen and if your sensitive to oestrogen then you will get oestrogen side effects endnof the day people built diffrently I cannot touch 10omg a week test without full blown tits.. But can use gram of deca no sides.

 

[ww90125]

There are two sides to any argument related to steroid usage:
1- What does science say about it? What do controlled studies say about it?
2- What do the experience of zillions of users say about it? IOW, what's the know-how?

Both support the idea that Proviron in fact, due to its extremely high affinity for plasma binding proteins(SHBG), it may actually work to potentate the activity of other steroids by displacing a higher percentage into a free, unbound state. The direct result is to increase androgen levels and ANTI-ESTROGEN due to its intrinsic ability to antagonize the aromatase enzyme.

 

[stevesmi]

^^^ good post, proviron is a great one