Caber doing NOTHING....

[2horns]

caber does not work whatsoever for me on deca...nips are very puffy and have gotten way worse...looks like its letro for me...just wanted to give some personal experience on caber and deca... hope its not the product...hmmmmmmmm

 

[stbizzle]

caber does not work whatsoever for me on deca...nips are very puffy and have gotten way worse...looks like its letro for me...just wanted to give some personal experience on caber and deca... hope its not the product...hmmmmmmmm

I remember reading this article not to very long ago.

taken from:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070104/...insons_drug_dc



By Gene Emery and Toni Clarke Thu Jan 4, 8:21 AM ET

BOSTON (Reuters) - Two Parkinson's disease drugs cause the same kind of heart damage that led to the withdrawal of the diet drug combination "fen-phen," according to two studies published on Wednesday.
ADVERTISEMENT

Patients taking the drugs pergolide, developed by Eli Lilly & Co. and sold under the brand name Permax, and cabergoline, developed by Pfizer Inc. and sold under the brand Dostinex, had a sharply higher risk of heart valve damage than those taking other therapies, the studies said.

The studies, one of which analyzed the records of 11,417 patients in Britain and one of which tested 245 patients in Italy, reinforce the results of earlier, smaller studies showing drugs that activate a cellular receptor known as 5-HT2b can cause damage to the heart valve, a serious condition that can lead to heart failure and sudden death.

"We recommend that physicians not prescribe drugs that have this biochemical property," said Bryan Roth, a researcher at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, who was not involved in the trials, but viewed the data and commented on it in The
New England Journal of Medicine, where both studies appeared.

Michael Berelowitz, a Pfizer senior vice president, said cabergoline has very modest sales and is only approved in the United States for hyperprolactinemia -- a condition in which excessive amounts of the hormone prolactin enter the bloodstream due to benign tumors of the pituitary gland.

He said benefits of the Pfizer drug, which is sold in Europe for Parkinson's disease, as well as hyperprolactinemia, outweigh the increased risk of heart valve damage, which is noted in the drug's package insert label.

Lilly officials could not immediately be reached for comment.

Such drugs also include the migraine headache drug ergotamine and the amphetamine derivative known as "ecstasy."

Roth said his team, in a separate piece of research that has yet to be published or reviewed by the scientific community, has identified several other big-selling drugs that have until now not been known to activate the 5-HT2b receptor.

He declined to reveal the names of the drugs until the research has been published.

"We recommend that every drug be screened at this receptor before it goes into humans," Roth told Reuters in an interview. "It costs just pennies per drug for such a screen."

The British study showed patients taking pergolide were 7.1 times more likely to develop heart valve damage than those who took other treatments. Patients taking the highest doses of the drug had a 37 times greater risk.

The study showed patients taking cabergoline were 4.9 times more likely to develop heart valve damage. At higher doses patients were 50.3 times more likely to suffer damage.

Both drugs are available in generic form.

A second study, conducted in Italy, tested 245 people, of whom 155 had Parkinson's disease. Of the diseased population, one group received pergolide, one group received cabergoline and one group received an alternative Parkinson's treatment. The non-diseased control group received nothing.

The results showed that 23.4 percent of patients taking pergolide and 28.6 percent of patients taking cabergoline suffered heart damage, compared with just 5.6 percent in the control group.

"These are huge risks," said Roth.

He added they were similar to the kind of damage seen with fen-phen, whose main ingredients were withdrawn in 1997 and forced the drug-maker Wyeth to take more than $21 billion in charges to cover liabilities.

Wyeth's recalled drugs were fenfluramine, or Pondimin, and dexfenfluramine, or Redux. To make fen-phen, one or the other was combined with another drug called phentermine that is still sold by other companies.

Wyeth, then called American Home Products, recalled Pondimin and Redux after some of the 6 million Americans who had taken fen-phen developed heart-valve problems.

Roth said pergolide is also used to treat restless leg syndrome, a condition in which patients feel a crawling sensation in their legs combined with a need to move them.

(Additional reporting by Ransdell Pierson in New York)

 

[redguru]

You using liquid caber? Cabergoline loses it's effectiveness when exposed to moisture. There's a dessicant in the pill bottle for a reason.

 

[Mr.X]

caber does not work whatsoever for me on deca...nips are very puffy and have gotten way worse...looks like its letro for me...just wanted to give some personal experience on caber and deca... hope its not the product...hmmmmmmmm

that's because dostinex does nothing for deca gyno; deca gyno is estrogen and progesterone related - for that you need LETROZOLE... again, dostinex will do nothing for deca related gyno.

 

[nydj66]

You using liquid caber? Cabergoline loses it's effectiveness when exposed to moisture. There's a dessicant in the pill bottle for a reason.

That's always bothered me about the liquid cabergoline.

One other thought, deca does aromatize to estrogen and it may be the estrogen (and not prolactin) from the deca that is the problem.

 

[redguru]

That's always bothered me about the liquid cabergoline.

One other thought, deca does aromatize to estrogen and it may be the estrogen (and not prolactin) from the deca that is the problem.

LOL, guess I should have read his initial post more thoroughly.

 

[Ross]

that's because dostinex does nothing for deca gyno; deca gyno is estrogen and progesterone related - for that you need LETROZOLE... again, dostinex will do nothing for deca related gyno.

However Mr X.....

Deca and Tren stiumlate the Progesterone receptor more than Progesterone ITSELF. Anytime the Progesterone receptor is stimulated, the Pituitary secretes PROLACTIN.

Thus, when using Deca or Tren, PROLACTIN levels become etremely elevated, which not only KILLS the libido, but functions mutually with estrogen to cause breast tissue growth.

So the solution is an AI(such as Letro) in conjunction with .5mgs of Cabergoline E3D.

 

[chazk]

However Mr X.....

Deca and Tren stiumlate the Progesterone receptor more than Progesterone ITSELF. Anytime the Progesterone receptor is stimulated, the Pituitary secretes PROLACTIN.

Thus, when using Deca or Tren, PROLACTIN levels become etremely elevated, which not only KILLS the libido, but functions mutually with estrogen to cause breast tissue growth.

So the solution is an AI(such as Letro) in conjunction with .5mgs of Cabergoline E3D.

this is prob the only thing i agree with ross about .
elevated estrogen and progesterone can cuase prolactin to increase as noted in this medical guide below.
i do not feel the caber needs to be used in extream doses to lower the prolactin to subnormal levels but can be combined with letro and be used to lower progesterone/estrogen synergy to keep the levels back down to "normal levels" and the caber does not need to be used at all when no prolactin or progesterone steroids are use in the cycle.

this shows how estrogen and progesterone work together to increase prolactin .

B. Steroid Hormones and Mammogenesis
1. Estrogens (follicle, placenta, adrenal cortex)
a). Stimulate prolactin release; duct growth
b). Synergizes with prolactin at cellular level to stimulate protein synthesis; mammary duct growth (estrogen + prolactin elicits greater response than does estrogen or prolactin separately)

2. Progesterone (corpus luteum, placenta, adrenal cortex)
a). Stimulates lobulo-alveolar growth; synergizes with estrogen and prolactin
b). Retards milk synthesis (prevents synthesis and accumulation of enzymes (a-lactalbumin) necessary for lactogenesis in prepartum gland (but does not interfere to same extent during lactation)

c). Stimulates amino acid incorporation into protein when coupled with prolactin


when using test and deca ... A anti estrogen and needs to be combined with caber.
if its a test only cycle or a dht cycle no needs for the dostenex.

 

[Ross]

this is prob the only thing i agree with ross about .
elevated estrogen and progesterone can cuase prolactin to increase as noted in this medical guide below.
i do not feel the caber needs to be used in extream doses to lower the prolactin to subnormal levels but can be combined with letro and be used to lower progesterone/estrogen synergy to keep the levels back down to "normal levels" and the caber does not need to be used at all when no prolactin or progesterone steroids are use in the cycle.

this shows how estrogen and progesterone work together to increase prolactin .

B. Steroid Hormones and Mammogenesis
1. Estrogens (follicle, placenta, adrenal cortex)
a). Stimulate prolactin release; duct growth
b). Synergizes with prolactin at cellular level to stimulate protein synthesis; mammary duct growth (estrogen + prolactin elicits greater response than does estrogen or prolactin separately)

2. Progesterone (corpus luteum, placenta, adrenal cortex)
a). Stimulates lobulo-alveolar growth; synergizes with estrogen and prolactin
b). Retards milk synthesis (prevents synthesis and accumulation of enzymes (a-lactalbumin) necessary for lactogenesis in prepartum gland (but does not interfere to same extent during lactation)

c). Stimulates amino acid incorporation into protein when coupled with prolactin


when using test and deca ... A anti estrogen and needs to be combined with caber.
if its a test only cycle or a dht cycle no needs for the dostenex.

Well said brotha!

 

[ironclaw]

that article is some scary shit, and I started taking cabaser today for tren usage.

 

[Ross]

that article is some scary shit, and I started taking cabaser today for tren usage.

YOU HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

The stusy uses PARKINSON'S DISEASE doages; TEN TIMES the dosages we as bodybuilders use.

At .5 mgs E3D you have little or NOTHING to be worried about.

 

[bbkingpin]

Stay away from liquid. Go with the real thing, not underground. Cabaser 4mg tabs can be got cheap. You can import a 3 month personal supply from the right exporters.

 

[Nelson Montana]

that's because dostinex does nothing for deca gyno; deca gyno is estrogen and progesterone related - for that you need LETROZOLE... again, dostinex will do nothing for deca related gyno.

This is absolutely correct.

Although there may others factors, it can only be speculation. And sorry Ross, I'm not a fan of taking something for Parkinsons disease to lower something which in most males is a non issue.

Ginsing, S-ame, mucana priens (which in itself contains L-dopa -- a concern) and Vitamin E all lower prolactin.

And even you said you wouldn't take deca. Personally, I don't know why anyone would.

 

[UFC22]

Hopefully I didn't just waste a lot of $ for nothing on this dostinex.

 

[Ross]

This is absolutely correct.

Although there may others factors, it can only be speculation. And sorry Ross, I'm not a fan of taking something for Parkinsons disease to lower something which in most males is a non issue.

Ginsing, S-ame, mucana priens (which in itself contains L-dopa -- a concern) and Vitamin E all lower prolactin.

And even you said you wouldn't take deca. Personally, I don't know why anyone would.

Saying that you won't take "something for Parkinson's Disease"(Cabergoline) is like saying you won't take something "for Breast Cancer",(Arimidex) or even better, you won't take something "that is used to STIMULATE OVULATION"(Clomid).

Nonetheless, ANY MALE will have Prolactin "issues" as long as they use DECA or TREN. They both stimulate the Progesterone receptor more than PROGESTERONE ITSELF. Ergo, they both cause MASSIVE SPIKES IN PROLACTIN, which dramatically sensitizes the HPTA, causing it to SHUTDOWN ASAP. Therefore, the use of Cabergoline while on such cycles is NECESSITATED.


Furthermore, when Estrogen and Prolactin levels become elevated they function mutually to enhance breast-tissue growth. This is why the Deca/Test stack is notorious for causing gyno, but typically either compound alone at similar dosages is less probelmatic.

Prolactin + Estrogen = Evil

Therefore, the use of Cabergoline while on such cycles is NECESSITATED.

 

[trader]

That's always bothered me about the liquid cabergoline.

One other thought, deca does aromatize to estrogen and it may be the estrogen (and not prolactin) from the deca that is the problem.

The liquid isn't water and the powder is insoluble in water for the reason it makes it ineffective BUT cabergoline is a white powder soluble in ethyl alcohol, chloroform, and N, N-dimethylformamide (DMF); slightly soluble in 0.1N hydrochloric acid; very slightly soluble in n-hexane; and insoluble in water

 

[Ross]

The liquid isn't water and the powder is insoluble in water for the reason it makes it ineffective BUT cabergoline is a white powder soluble in ethyl alcohol, chloroform, and N, N-dimethylformamide (DMF); slightly soluble in 0.1N hydrochloric acid; very slightly soluble in n-hexane; and insoluble in water

VERY SOLID POST

 

[redguru]

The liquid isn't water and the powder is insoluble in water for the reason it makes it ineffective BUT cabergoline is a white powder soluble in ethyl alcohol, chloroform, and N, N-dimethylformamide (DMF); slightly soluble in 0.1N hydrochloric acid; very slightly soluble in n-hexane; and insoluble in water

How is the powder stored prior to people making the research chemical?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Saying that you won't take "something for Parkinson's Disease"(Cabergoline) is like saying you won't take something "for Breast Cancer",(Arimidex)
........................................................

GOOD POINT -- AND I'M NOT CRAZY ABOUT IT, BUT IT'S ALL WE HAVE. LESS IS KNOWN ABOUT CAB AND THE SIDES APPEAR TO BE GREATER AND THE NEED FOR IT SEEMS TO BE LESS. SO IT'S A JUDGEMENT CALL.



or even better, you won't take something "that is used to STIMULATE OVULATION"(Clomid).

......................................................

BUT CLOMID IS PRESCRIBED FOR THE REASON ITS USED. STILL, YOU'LL GET NO LOVE OF CLOMID FROM ME.


..........................................................

Nonetheless, ANY MALE will have Prolactin "issues" as long as they use DECA or TREN.


..............................................

TO WHICH I SAY "AN OUNCE OF PREVENTION IS WORTH A POUND OF CURE." DECA IS AN OUTDATED DRUG IMO. THERE ARE SO MANY BETTER OPTIONS.


...............................................

Furthermore, when Estrogen and Prolactin levels become elevated they function mutually to enhance breast-tissue growth. This is why the Deca/Test stack is notorious for causing gyno, but typically either compound alone at similar dosages is less probelmatic.

..........................................................

Mmmmm....DECA BY ITSELF CAN BE PRETTY NASTY


........................................................


Prolactin + Estrogen = Evil

........................................

OR ONE COULD SAY PROG AND ESTRO -- DECA AND DROL BEING BIG CULPRITS WITH THAT. HATE THEM BOTH.

Therefore, the use of Cabergoline while on such cycles is NECESSITATED.

..

 

[trader]

How is the powder stored prior to people making the research chemical?

You will have to ask those research companies you speak of, have no idea what they do. Start with AG guys directly or indirectly here. I'm in the huge minority here, I don't sell anything.

 

[jamesG]

all the forums have complaints about liquid cabergoline regardless of the research company producing it, stick with tabs.

 

[Ross]

I would stick to Pharmaceutical Cabaser or Dostinex. No Bromo.

 

[nydj66]

The liquid isn't water and the powder is insoluble in water for the reason it makes it ineffective BUT cabergoline is a white powder soluble in ethyl alcohol, chloroform, and N, N-dimethylformamide (DMF); slightly soluble in 0.1N hydrochloric acid; very slightly soluble in n-hexane; and insoluble in water

Innovative research lists their cabergoline as an aqueous solution.

And assuming ag-guys suspends theirs in ethyl alcohol (like most of their products) there is some water in that too.

Upjohn Dostinex is one of the few medications that has a desicant in the lid of the pill bottle; it must be there for a reason.

I'm not saying it's definitely a problem but it does seem suspicious.

 

[trowsersnake98]

here we go, first hand experience.

i started taking 100mg NPP eod about 3 weeks ago.
i had on hand 15 1mg cabasser tablets.
i am very very prog./prol. sensitive. i ran deca once before for 2 weeks and i had terrible gyno and my libido was trashed.

so after about 3 shots of npp 100mg my nips started getting puffy and sensitive. and i noticed it was alot hard to orgasm than usual. so i started my cabasser. .5mg e4d. now, puffyness and sensitivity has only been reduced slightly however it has not gotten any worse. which is all i care about. and my sexual function is A+. im on the hunt for letrozole right now to eradicate my gyno, but for now cabasser is keeping it at bay and im happy its not getting any worse.

also taking, .5m adex eod
400 test e/wk
400 eq/week
250hcg m/thurs

 

[yahya1966]

This is absolutely correct.

Although there may others factors, it can only be speculation. And sorry Ross, I'm not a fan of taking something for Parkinsons disease to lower something which in most males is a non issue.

Ginsing, S-ame, mucana priens (which in itself contains L-dopa -- a concern) and Vitamin E all lower prolactin.

And even you said you wouldn't take deca. Personally, I don't know why anyone would.

personally, i love me some deca and nor19s in general. however, i am over 40 and not gyno prone. i do, however, use me some tadalifil (cialis) if willy starts to act up (or maybe down i should say).

 

[fbodyguy02]

Hopefully I didn't just waste a lot of $ for nothing on this dostinex.

lol... you and me both bro.

 

[Kabeetz]

That is completely dosage dependent... it used in large daily quanitities in that study for treatment of parkinson's.. not .5 e3d or similar. As explained to me, it's like comparing drinking 10 cups of coffee a day to the effects of drinking 1 every 3 days.

I remember reading this article not to very long ago.

taken from:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070104/...insons_drug_dc



By Gene Emery and Toni Clarke Thu Jan 4, 8:21 AM ET

BOSTON (Reuters) - Two Parkinson's disease drugs cause the same kind of heart damage that led to the withdrawal of the diet drug combination "fen-phen," according to two studies published on Wednesday.
ADVERTISEMENT

Patients taking the drugs pergolide, developed by Eli Lilly & Co. and sold under the brand name Permax, and cabergoline, developed by Pfizer Inc. and sold under the brand Dostinex, had a sharply higher risk of heart valve damage than those taking other therapies, the studies said.

The studies, one of which analyzed the records of 11,417 patients in Britain and one of which tested 245 patients in Italy, reinforce the results of earlier, smaller studies showing drugs that activate a cellular receptor known as 5-HT2b can cause damage to the heart valve, a serious condition that can lead to heart failure and sudden death.

"We recommend that physicians not prescribe drugs that have this biochemical property," said Bryan Roth, a researcher at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, who was not involved in the trials, but viewed the data and commented on it in The
New England Journal of Medicine, where both studies appeared.

Michael Berelowitz, a Pfizer senior vice president, said cabergoline has very modest sales and is only approved in the United States for hyperprolactinemia -- a condition in which excessive amounts of the hormone prolactin enter the bloodstream due to benign tumors of the pituitary gland.

He said benefits of the Pfizer drug, which is sold in Europe for Parkinson's disease, as well as hyperprolactinemia, outweigh the increased risk of heart valve damage, which is noted in the drug's package insert label.

Lilly officials could not immediately be reached for comment.

Such drugs also include the migraine headache drug ergotamine and the amphetamine derivative known as "ecstasy."

Roth said his team, in a separate piece of research that has yet to be published or reviewed by the scientific community, has identified several other big-selling drugs that have until now not been known to activate the 5-HT2b receptor.

He declined to reveal the names of the drugs until the research has been published.

"We recommend that every drug be screened at this receptor before it goes into humans," Roth told Reuters in an interview. "It costs just pennies per drug for such a screen."

The British study showed patients taking pergolide were 7.1 times more likely to develop heart valve damage than those who took other treatments. Patients taking the highest doses of the drug had a 37 times greater risk.

The study showed patients taking cabergoline were 4.9 times more likely to develop heart valve damage. At higher doses patients were 50.3 times more likely to suffer damage.

Both drugs are available in generic form.

A second study, conducted in Italy, tested 245 people, of whom 155 had Parkinson's disease. Of the diseased population, one group received pergolide, one group received cabergoline and one group received an alternative Parkinson's treatment. The non-diseased control group received nothing.

The results showed that 23.4 percent of patients taking pergolide and 28.6 percent of patients taking cabergoline suffered heart damage, compared with just 5.6 percent in the control group.

"These are huge risks," said Roth.

He added they were similar to the kind of damage seen with fen-phen, whose main ingredients were withdrawn in 1997 and forced the drug-maker Wyeth to take more than $21 billion in charges to cover liabilities.

Wyeth's recalled drugs were fenfluramine, or Pondimin, and dexfenfluramine, or Redux. To make fen-phen, one or the other was combined with another drug called phentermine that is still sold by other companies.

Wyeth, then called American Home Products, recalled Pondimin and Redux after some of the 6 million Americans who had taken fen-phen developed heart-valve problems.

Roth said pergolide is also used to treat restless leg syndrome, a condition in which patients feel a crawling sensation in their legs combined with a need to move them.

(Additional reporting by Ransdell Pierson in New York)