Bulking On A CKD

[Legion Kreinak2]

I've seen this becoming more popular lately, and noticed that bulking with tons of carbs as I've been, has given me a bit of a gut already. Definitely not something I like.

I have always hated being chunky in any way, and if I can bulk whilst having little or no fat gain, that would be ideal.

Therefore, I figured stumbling upon a CKD bulking diet was the best thing that happened to me. So, can someone tell me what exactly I would need to do in order to bulk on a CKD?

Edit:
Was just going through Mr. X's CKD article, and stumbled upon this...

"Well, once your muscle glycogen is depleted, your workouts become a pain in the ass, you are sluggish and muscle loss can occur. (due to the fact that no insulin is present in the system, there will be NO muscle gain while in Ketosis"

This comes right from him, stating you will not gain muscle while in ketosis. Though, our friend BodyByFinaplix seems to bulk just fine while on a CKD. How do this work? Hmm...

 

[overhead]

You can check out the site metabolicdiet.com . Guy wrote a couple of books on the subject. I have "Anabolic Solution for powerlifters" and it lays out the science and exactly how you are suppose to eat. Basically, you eat between 20-25 cals per pound. You have to mess with cals until you are gaining a pound or two a week. Carb ups can be either one or two days a week depending on how your body handles the low carb diet. The food is exactly the same as CKD. Carb totals for none carb up days should be somewhere between 20-50, higher if you do not tolerate the low carb diet well. The idea is to not go above 15% body fat while bulking.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

Yeah, hell I don't wanna go above 13% bodyfat. Less, if possible.

When on this diet, do you find you gain alot of bodyfat if any?

 

[overhead]

I am currently cutting becuase I am close to 20% body fat. Others who have used a low carb diet to bulk find they put on much less fat than a *normal* bulking diet. In your other thread you said you were around 17% body fat. If I were you I would focus on maintaining muscle mass while losing fat until I reached somewhere around 10%, than worry about bulking. I did not post in your other thread, but 1300 cals is not near enough for someone that weights 168.

 

[overhead]

Here is a link to a discussion we had about bulking on a low carb diet http://boards.elitefitness.com/foru...threadid=251283

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

Yes, I've seen that thread before, very interesting reads there.

However, you say 1300 isn't nearly enough for someone my size. I know this to be true, but at the same time, I will still lose weight, right? Fat, rather. As long as I lose fat, I'm okay with it.

 

[overhead]

This is just my opinion because I am not an expert on diet, but at 1300 cals you will end up losing more lean mass than fat. Also, you metabolism will end up slowing way down.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

Yeah, I just don't want to eat too much or whatever. I figured that would be the case though. I can't have too much lean mass though, so I don't know.

How much should I go about eating, and what should it consist of? Would it be okay if all the calories came from tuna and such? Like protein sources, with low/no carbs? Like I said, I can't get a hold of any healthy fats really right now. Olive Oil is all I could get and right now I don't have the money.

I heard I can get a big thing of it for $5 but I don't know how long that "big thing" will last.

 

[overhead]

What you eat will depend on what kind of diet you think will work best for you. I use a low carb diet because of a bad diet when I was younger that included too many sugars, so I believe I am overly sensitive to carbs. I also prefer a low carb diet because I believe that it spares more lean muscle during lower cal periods than a standard diet. Low carbing is not for everyone, some can get by on a diet high in protein, good carbs and some fat. Basically with any diet the idea is the same, keep calories low enough to lose fat, but not so low that your body goes into starvation mode and tries to save the body fat you have.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

At what point does the body go into "starvation mode"?

 

[overhead]

I am not sure about that. I have read that in as little as 6-12 hours of little or no food your body can begin to attempt to retain fat. Also, a long term diet that does not include enough cals can have the same effect. But I do not know for sure.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

BodyByFinaplix, could you possibly give some feedback on this? I sent you a PM to which you never responded.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

Legion, I'm interested in the same thing -- as I'm sure many people are.

I've been reading about the Natural Hormonal Enhancement diet and The Anabolic Solution for Bodybuilders.

I don't know much about either but here is what I do know.

Natural Hormonal Enhancement:

• High protein, moderate fat, low carb
• Carb up every 3rd day and 4th day (Wednesday and Sunday)
• Carb up should be the last two meals for each day -- you eat as many carbs as you can down which means very little protein fat just so you can eat more carbs
• Protein + Fat Preworkout and postworkout
• Carb up must be at least 70% starchy carbs
• Veggies are considered free for the low carb days unless eaten excessively -- so you aren't nutrient deprived
• Eat until full; don't limit yourself to a certain number of calories (Don't know if I agree with this)
• Can't have over 50g protein in one meal
• Eat at least every 4-5 hours; every 2 hours is optimal, but do not eat more than every 2 hours or there will be a bigger hormonal response that you do not want

Anabolic Solution for Bodybuilders:

• Mid-week carb up
• 100g carbs around workouts
• 100-200g daily

I don't really know much about the Anabolic Solution at all. I think the NHE actually burns fat for fuel, so the carbs you have during your carb up aren't used for daily activities -- they're only used to refill glycogen levels and fuel workouts.

I forgot to mention -- to my knowledge, both diets require a metabolic shift which is extremely low carb for the first week or so.

Hopefully someone else will have more info on the Anabolic Solution for Bodybuilders diet. Both sound like great diets, I'm still deciding which one I'm going to use.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

Another thing important to NHE is: it's suggested you only workout 2-3 weekly. It's also recommended that workouts are under one hour -- which is pretty common nowdays.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

After reading more on the CKD diet, I can safely say I'm sold. I don't see any problem with it, besides maybe being groggy and sluggish for the first two weeks until you adjust. That, and the bad breath issue I read about (breathing ketones is supposed to be "ech" - heh) which is my biggest worry because I don't want my girl to be displeased.

Anyways, for cutting a CKD is heavenly. It's cheap too. I'm thinking of basing my daily meals around olive oil and tuna. Protein, fats, no carbs. Sounds good to me. I'll try and eat some healthy solid fats though. And vegetables. If I do all that, I should be okay.

As for bulking, I'm still trying to find out what to do. Can I use that CKD Spreadsheet Mr. X made and just input the weight I want to reach, and follow those macronutrient ratios? Or do I have to do something else?

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

bump

 

[overhead]

I am not sure if Mr.X included any bulking numbers in his spreadsheet. The anabolic diet, which as you know is similar, recommends starting at 20 times body weight in cals a day to bulk. Then you adjust that number 500 calories up or down until you find the cal level that you gain about 2 pounds a week. Carb up day should include a bunch of cals, atleast 3x body weight in carb grams.

 

[overhead]

And, by the way those numbers come from the "Anabolic Solution for Powerlifters", not the one for bodybuilders. I have not read that book.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

Are you going to do a CKD bulk or are you interested in NHE or The Anabolic Solution for Bodybuilders too?

If you're interested in the latter, I can post here when I find more information about it if you like.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

Well I want to do a CKD bulk for now as I've heard alot about it, but post up the other information if you like.

 

[collegiateLifter]

if you are going to go with any low carb bulking approaches, I'd recomend getting on a first name basis with those bacon double cheeseburgers (with some ranch, hold the bun).

 

[Deleted member 33117]

if you are going to go with any low carb bulking approaches, I'd recomend getting on a first name basis with those bacon double cheeseburgers (with some ranch, hold the bun).

Agreed, red meat is your best friend when doing a low carb bulk.

LK, ok bro, sorry if I didn't get to your PM, I have at least 5 waiting for me every time I sign on. Overhead is right, you will go into starvation mode when dieting if your calories go too low. At which point your body will burn muscle mass that useless muscle mass that is doing nothing but elevate your metabolic rate for fuel, and hoard bf, which it now needs as a last ditch fuel source for survival, since it is starving. For most people this happens somewhere between a 1500 and 2000 calorie deficiet. Meaning trying not to burn much more than 1000 calories a day more than you take in.

For bulking on low carbs, start your calories low. Around 15 per ibs of bodyweight and slowly increase. Add roughly 200 calories per day, per week. I would stop somewhere between 20 & 25 X bodyweight. Shoot for 2-2.5 grams of protien per ibs of bw. More is acceptable, however make certain your fat intake stays above 50% of your calories. Try to limit carbs to 30 grams a day most days, but an occasional increase is fine, a long as they are from an EXTREMELY low gi source such as natural peanut butter or other nutts. Make certain most of those 30 grams are in the form of green veggies. You need the nutrients and roughage fromthem for optimal nutrition, as well as function of your gi track. The one downfall for me is the high sodium intake I get on some days. While, I may not be gaining any real bodyfat, I am very smoothed out from the test and high sodium most days. However, most people are not as sensitive to sodium as I am. I can go from having nice abes, to love handles and no abes in 2 days, just from increasing my sodium intake a little. Actually its is starting to bother me, so I just cut out my test prop 4 days ago(added extra tren to compensate) and will be lowering sodium this week.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

Yeah, I know canned tuna has alot of sodium and such, so I'll probably run into the same problem as you. Let's say I bulked to the point I wanted to be at, and didn't gain any bodyfat so I liked my body how it was. What would I do from then on? Would I have to follor the CKD lifestyle forever in order to maintain that physique or what?

And what about wanting to have the abs show through eventually? Drink less water? Eat less sodium?

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Yeah, I know canned tuna has alot of sodium and such, so I'll probably run into the same problem as you. Let's say I bulked to the point I wanted to be at, and didn't gain any bodyfat so I liked my body how it was. What would I do from then on? Would I have to follor the CKD lifestyle forever in order to maintain that physique or what?

And what about wanting to have the abs show through eventually? Drink less water? Eat less sodium?

A CKD can work for maintaince. IF you are an endomorph or a meso-endomorph I think it is the only real choice. As far as seeing your abes, cut the sodium back yes, however do not decrease water intake. Try to drink more water.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

It can work for maintenance, I figured that much. But I was more asking would I have to use a CKD? Or could I use some other method of dieting so I can eat carbs again, and maintain my body?

 

[Deleted member 33117]

LK, it depends on your body. Some people always gain fat on a non-keto diet, regardless of calories taken in, such as myself. On a 2200 calories 60% carb diet, I'll gain a ibs a week, doing cardio 5 days a week. I've tried to diet like this at one time, and gained 8 ibs, all of it bf. I can drop pretty fast on 3500 cals on a keto diet though. The idea that "a calorie is a calorie" is such bullshit. As though they are all absorbed and utilized the same, and they as though they don't all produce totally different hormone responses. Your question is one I cannot answer without knowing more about you. Keto diets are a good way to maintain though. I like them for the most part, and feel very comfortable in ketosis.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

Body, how long does it take you to feel good on a keto? The NHE author claims you will have even more energy than before because your brain is actually starving for glucose on a high carb diet.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

AAO, it takes a couple of weeks to get use to it. After a couple of months you'll feel normal all the time in ketosis. I get really sleepy during my carbups and need a good 12 hours of sleep per day during them sometimes.

 

[Toozee]

I really enjoyed the time I was on a CKD. I had a very consistent level of energy and a great deal of mental clarity and focus.
It took about 1.5 to 2 weeks to get there, but it wasn't bad.
I didn't really have any cravings for the most part, which made it even easier.

 

[cooligan]

For me the best part about a CKD when dieting is that while I still get hungry, I don't get that light headed, low blood sugar feeling.

And LK, this is something I really want to point out even though I'm sure you understand: don't dismiss BodyByFina's comment about proper roughage as merely a passing thought; rather it is of utmost importance. On a CKD you absolutely must either eat a ton of fiberous veggies or take a fiber supplement or both. I'm not suggesting this--I'm telling you--do it or within a week you'll be very unhappy.

Good luck.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

For me the best part about a CKD when dieting is that while I still get hungry, I don't get that light headed, low blood sugar feeling.

And LK, this is something I really want to point out even though I'm sure you understand: don't dismiss BodyByFina's comment about proper roughage as merely a passing thought; rather it is of utmost importance. On a CKD you absolutely must either eat a ton of fiberous veggies or take a fiber supplement or both. I'm not suggesting this--I'm telling you--do it or within a week you'll be very unhappy.

Good luck.

hahah I made that mistake as a beginner once. Very uncomfortable. I eat a lot of romaine lettace now. Enough to make what most people would consider to be about 8 pr 9 salids a day.