Arnis (Filipino stick fighting) Another Bad Ass MA?

[Big Rick Rock]

I have seen Arnis before but had no idea is was so huge. There where some guys that use to get together in Central park every weekend during the summer and run a Stick Fighting sparring club. They would gear up in protective pads and go all out full contact. Now I've been learning it is a real MA complete with belt system, theory and even some emptyhand strikes and kicks all of which incorporate stick work (some of the techniques work empty handed too.

Any of you guys familiar with it?

 

[liftshard]

Arnis de Mano or Modern Arnis?

 

[DANABOLIC55]

Yes. It was actually my first filipino MA. It is very small circle jiu jitsu like. Oh....I'm talking about Modern Arnis- I just remembered the thread title. I prefer Kali to any FMA I've done. I actually prefer Paul Vunak's Progressive Fighting Systems' (kali based) stick & knife work to anything. It's soooo simple and practical. But, without my first base of Modern Arnis, the PFS stick stuff wouldn't have come so easy.
check out http://www.fighting.net for Vunak's stuff. I'm an apprentice inst. under him- he's bad-ass.
Rock....are you thinkin about doin some sticks???? The FMA's will change the way you look at martial arts. There are literally thousands of different styles of FMA's. But, they are all VERY similar.

 

[digger]

Man, there ain't no eyeopener like seeing what an arnis guy does to a TKD fool who tries an X-arm block.... "You say you want me to cut both your wrists with one slice? Okay!"

Never forget that Man is the tool-using animal. Fighting empty-handed (karate) is for desperate people in a desperate situation.

There was an outfit back in the '70s who made a really sweet "gentleman's walking stick." No hidden sword blade, no James Bond bullshit; just a beautiful piece of hardwood and a heavy brass knob. You could whip that tip up as though it were weightless.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Yes. It was actually my first filipino MA. It is very small circle jiu jitsu like. Oh....I'm talking about Modern Arnis- I just remembered the thread title. I prefer Kali to any FMA I've done. I actually prefer Paul Vunak's Progressive Fighting Systems' (kali based) stick & knife work to anything. It's soooo simple and practical. But, without my first base of Modern Arnis, the PFS stick stuff wouldn't have come so easy.
check out http://www.fighting.net for Vunak's stuff. I'm an apprentice inst. under him- he's bad-ass.
Rock....are you thinkin about doin some sticks???? The FMA's will change the way you look at martial arts. There are literally thousands of different styles of FMA's. But, they are all VERY similar.

I'm eager to learn Sticks, problem is I'm very short on time right now, between work, family, Wrestling, Weight training and Muay Thai my week is full. I'm hoping to shuffle some stuff around in the coming months to fit in BJJ and hopefully a couple of hours per week of stick work.

 

[Becoming]

that is some cool shit for sure...

 

[hub5326]

I had a friend who was very proficient in Kali. We practiced with blunt practice knives or sticks and the basic principle he taught was to make as many cuts as possible and then back off to let your opponet bleed out. I don't remember the times but they were something like a couple of minutes for wrist or arm vein cuts, where famoral or jugular were like 30 seconds or less. It's a blast to learn, and without a doubt the most effective knife technique I have ever trained in. I you are ever up against anyone who is proficient in the art run away or use the 21' rule and shoot to kill...
hub5326

 

[Big Rick Rock]

I had a friend who was very proficient in Kali. We practiced with blunt practice knives or sticks and the basic principle he taught was to make as many cuts as possible and then back off to let your opponet bleed out. I don't remember the times but they were something like a couple of minutes for wrist or arm vein cuts, where famoral or jugular were like 30 seconds or less. It's a blast to learn, and without a doubt the most effective knife technique I have ever trained in. I you are ever up against anyone who is proficient in the art run away or use the 21' rule and shoot to kill...
hub5326

Kali,Arnis,Skrima has been tried and true, used effectively in battle. First against the spaniards whom were forced to outlaw the practice of Kali after losing many men trying to take over the Philipines(thats when sticks were adopted to practice since blades were outlawed by the spaniards... It didn't work too well since the Philipines grows some hard woods able to split metal helmets right open)
Many many years later against the U.S.A. the term "leather neck" actually came from the Leather neck protectors the GIs wore during their incursions into the Philipines, the Philipino warriors were notorious for cutting heads right off using blades and Kali skills... The Army also adoped the use of the 45cal since the 38s just werent doing the trick against those guys.

 

[digger]

The Army also adoped the use of the 45cal since the 38s just werent doing the trick against those guys.

Yep. The old Army .38 was roughly a .38 S&W (.38 S&W is to a .38 Spl as a .38 Spl is to a .357 Mag); with military rounds I'd say it was about as effective as an icepick.

An escrima guy will almost always have a serious bracelet of some kind on both wrists to act as a knife guard, and if he knows he's going in harm's way he may even have tourniquets looped and ready to tighten on all four limbs so he can stay in the fight longer.

They deserve better than they've gotten from the rest of the world, the USA included.

 

[ripped2shreds2004]

Arnis and Escrima are great...I use the stick fighting alot while working...

 

[DANABOLIC55]

Don't limit yourself to just filipino knife work. The South Americans use boxing footwork with knife jabs and thrusts. They don't focus on sooo many flow drills like kali and other FMA's. The FMA's use thrusts as well but not like the South Americans. It's the footwork that sets them apart. I love the FMA's but seek alternatives as well!

 

[illusionofsize]

Once you train Kali or any FMA you learn to think differently about martial arts. It's principles are very silmilar to JKD. Throw in Silat and you have a fifth range.
You start with a single stick, move to double, then to blade work. Empty hand comes last.
The kalis illustrimo system only has 12 basic angles of attack and the 6 strike patterns. Like boxing, the theory can be learned in a matter of days.

But it takes a lifetime to perfect.

Danabolic 55, You train with Paul??? I have been to his seminars but I usually train with Danny when I can. I'm in Canada and not lot of opportunity.

 

[Bam]

Once you train Kali or any FMA you learn to think differently about martial arts. It's principles are very silmilar to JKD. Throw in Silat and you have a fifth range.
You start with a single stick, move to double, then to blade work. Empty hand comes last.
The kalis illustrimo system only has 12 basic angles of attack and the 6 strike patterns. Like boxing, the theory can be learned in a matter of days.

But it takes a lifetime to perfect.

Danabolic 55, You train with Paul??? I have been to his seminars but I usually train with Danny when I can. I'm in Canada and not lot of opportunity.

Eskrima is one of the most serious knife fighting arts I have seen. My teacher inherited the grandmaster title from Gilbert Tenio. It is unmatched in my opinion. I have leaned only a small part of what this art has to offer. I would not want to face a proficient fighter in this art.

 

[illusionofsize]

Ditto.^^^
Everything is interchangable.
An angle 1 cut with a knife is the same with a stick or a sword or as a jab.
Angle two becomes a cross or overhand.
THe easiest way to explain the principle is picture an extended punch.
Start at the fist and destroy the hand. Then the upper forearm, then the under forarm, then the bicep, then the delt, then the face, the throat cirlce behind, destroy the lat rib tie in, the kidney, femural, hamstring.
Repeat in reverse order up the other side.
Then go to ground and smash everything up with silat.

You can do with a blade( Hub5326" let him bleed out") or with stick, club, 2x4, or empty hand.

SOme guys will say" Yeah but he ain't gonna stand still for you to do that"
True, that's why kali footwork is so circular(zoning principles).
Take a look at some guys like:
Edgar Sulite
Cicoy Canate
Remy, Ernesto Presas
Tony Diega
Old Johnny Lacoste
ANtonio Illustrimo.
MAster Tenio.
MArk Wiley
and of course close knife experts like Vunak, Inosanto, Bustillo.

I think Kali combined with Silat and BJJ would give you an excellent base for anything from the street to tournaments.(oh maybe throw in some Thai)

Ill.

 

[DANABOLIC55]

Once you train Kali or any FMA you learn to think differently about martial arts. It's principles are very silmilar to JKD. Throw in Silat and you have a fifth range.
You start with a single stick, move to double, then to blade work. Empty hand comes last.
The kalis illustrimo system only has 12 basic angles of attack and the 6 strike patterns. Like boxing, the theory can be learned in a matter of days.

But it takes a lifetime to perfect.

Danabolic 55, You train with Paul??? I have been to his seminars but I usually train with Danny when I can. I'm in Canada and not lot of opportunity.

Paul...no.....I'm ranked by one of his lower guys in my home town in Pauls org. Danny....????Inosanto? I've had the pleasure of metting & training with him breifly 3 times. I can't learn much cause I find myself like a starstruck little boy when he's there. Most of my stick & knife is pure PFS and stickboxing type method. After years of drilling then sparring completely different, I decided that learning one art didn't do it for me. Most of my instructors are of Inosanto lineage though. My first weapon art was Modern Arnis which was cool for a beginer. I don't like the small circle jiu jitsu aspects of it.
The drilling does help me on the ground and in clinch. The sensitivity one learns through it is awsome. I think a lot of straight BJJ guys could benefit greatly by it. But, I don't like patty cakin when a knife is being slashed around- stick maybe, but not a knife.

Bam- try Sayok Kali before you make your decision on the most effective blade art. You may not like it, but it changed my mind.

 

[illusionofsize]

Paul...no.....I'm ranked by one of his lower guys in my home town in Pauls org. Danny....????Inosanto? I've had the pleasure of metting & training with him breifly 3 times. I can't learn much cause I find myself like a starstruck little boy when he's there. QUOTE]

Yeah, me too, and I've trained with him 16 different times. Mostly at his on-the road seminars and once a "camp" style retreat for a week. He has a presence, for sure.

"Patty-cakin with a knife." lol. Yeah, that would be uncomfortable.

 

[danielson]

i've done it for a while, close to getting the top 2 belts....its quick to pick up and hard to master....excellent weapons system as it allows you to use anything and make it a weapon of sorts....and it trashes a lot of the traditional rigid fighting systems as with this we spar every class...they tend to just do a few forms

 

[digger]

Ditto.^^^
Everything is interchangable.
An angle 1 cut with a knife is the same with a stick or a sword or as a jab.
Angle two becomes a cross or overhand.
THe easiest way to explain the principle is picture an extended punch.
Start at the fist and destroy the hand. Then the upper forearm, then the under forarm, then the bicep, then the delt, then the face, the throat cirlce behind, destroy the lat rib tie in, the kidney, femural, hamstring.
Repeat in reverse order up the other side.
Then go to ground and smash everything up with silat.

Dammmmnnnnn....

Reminds me of a story I read once. The hero is this incredible guy (and a thai boxer ), but the villain is built like a freakin' gorilla, and he once kicked the hero's ass to the point he gets the shakes just thinking about this guy.

So the author sets up a situation where the hero has got to fight him again. And win -- he was going to just let the guy kill him and get it over with, but there's someone else's life at stake... anyway, he realizes that he's been thinking "once that guy gets his hands on me, it's all over." And suddenly understands what he has to do.

He takes out the guy's hands.

He then smashes him up pretty much the way you describe, and finishes with a judo throw that pile-drives him.

The author does hand-to-hand like no one else I've ever read. Judo, kobudo, swords, small-arms, backhoes (!).... His name's Peter O'Donnell.

 

[DANABOLIC55]

Dammmmnnnnn....

Reminds me of a story I read once. The hero is this incredible guy (and a thai boxer ), but the villain is built like a freakin' gorilla, and he once kicked the hero's ass to the point he gets the shakes just thinking about this guy.

So the author sets up a situation where the hero has got to fight him again. And win -- he was going to just let the guy kill him and get it over with, but there's someone else's life at stake... anyway, he realizes that he's been thinking "once that guy gets his hands on me, it's all over." And suddenly understands what he has to do.

He takes out the guy's hands.

He then smashes him up pretty much the way you describe, and finishes with a judo throw that pile-drives him.

The author does hand-to-hand like no one else I've ever read. Judo, kobudo, swords, small-arms, backhoes (!).... His name's Peter O'Donnell.

This is the limb destruction principle I was telling you about- the thai kick block with the bent knee. It's an interception technique- hence Jeet Kune DO -way of the intercepting fist or foot. Once you cause destruction of an initial blow, you then attack. This allows you to fight outside your weight class.
Although I have the heart of a Thai Boxer, there is very little a Thai guy can do against someone who parries his punches into the defenders elbow or blocks the kick with the bent knee destruction. If a 300 lb guy takes a swing at me and I use my boxing pary to guide his fist into my bent elbow, he's then reduced to a one handed fighter in severe pain. Then, I can attack with better chances.
I wish I could show you with boxing gloves for protection- it's very enlightening.
This mixed with clinch work is some of the best self defense you can learn.
This is the same with weapons. Hit the hand that holds the beer bottle, knife or stick. Then attack if you choose. Defang the snake.

 

[illusionofsize]

Digger, I didn't mean to make sound like a work of fiction. lol.
That's just one sequence that we learn. (picture it with a blade instead of an empty hand)

Danaboli55 "I wish I could show you......very enlightening".

It's friggin hard to explain it, isn't it.?? That whole sequence takes maybe 4-8 seconds and is done as really one flowing movement. Until you see or do it it sounds really complicated, but in all reality it's not.

I bet Thai boxers have the same trouble explaining the "cut" you use in a Thai kick.

 

[DANABOLIC55]

I bet Thai boxers have the same trouble explaining the "cut" you use in a Thai kick.

No shit...I can barely explain it when I'm physically there!

 

[digger]

Digger, I didn't mean to make sound like a work of fiction. lol.

Didn't mean to imply anything by that.

Good fiction can be useful -- real life is messy and confusing, and some people tend to freeze up when they're confused. That's one reason katas were invented -- to get a flow going. There's a story behind a good kata; sometimes it's made up, sometimes it's based on a real situation some master ran into once.

It's friggin hard to explain it, isn't it.??

Yep. It's great that people all over the world and from all sort of styles can come here and let their hair down but it's never going to be like stepping out onto the mat (or the hardwood) and SHOWING each other what we've got going. Best we can do is listen with respect.

 

[digger]

This is the limb destruction principle I was telling you about- the thai kick block with the bent knee. It's an interception technique- hence Jeet Kune DO -way of the intercepting fist or foot. Once you cause destruction of an initial blow, you then attack. This allows you to fight outside your weight class.

I thought that the point of a JKD 'interception' was that is was not divided into a block and counterattack, though. Take a simple example, a JKD 'interception' of a roundhouse punch -- it just takes the inside line, disrupting the roundhouse and landing a counterattack as a single, indivisible movement. Of course few real attacks would allow you such an elegant solution.

I'm excited to hear Inosanto is still active. He exchanged a lot of ideas with Lee and has done a lot to keep the JKD dream alive.

 

[DANABOLIC55]

I thought that the point of a JKD 'interception' was that is was not divided into a block and counterattack, though. Take a simple example, a JKD 'interception' of a roundhouse punch -- it just takes the inside line, disrupting the roundhouse and landing a counterattack as a single, indivisible movement. Of course few real attacks would allow you such an elegant solution.

I'm excited to hear Inosanto is still active. He exchanged a lot of ideas with Lee and has done a lot to keep the JKD dream alive.

In essance it is. If I destroy your punch, I just defended myself by hurting you simultaneously. If I am on key with the destruction-there is no way that I don't have an opportunity to escape. You will be hurt. A pause in your attack was caused. But, If I wish to arbitrarily decide to swap blows with you, that's where other skill will have to be used-Thai boxing, BJJ etc. By knowing other skills, I don't depend upon the mystical 1 undefendable technique like some other arts do. Some think JKD is kung fu gloryfied when it was really the first mixed martial art-it just had an asian name. It's really come full circle. At first people were practicing tons of arts in the JKD realm. Now, most just practice Thai, BJJ, and a weapon art. Obviously there are more available.

Inosanto IS JKD. He's done more than Lee ever did. Folks don't realize this man is an instructor in almost every martial art out there. Even Shooto and BJJ. He was training BJJ before there was a UFC.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

This is the limb destruction principle I was telling you about- the thai kick block with the bent knee. It's an interception technique- hence Jeet Kune DO -way of the intercepting fist or foot. Once you cause destruction of an initial blow, you then attack. This allows you to fight outside your weight class.
Although I have the heart of a Thai Boxer, there is very little a Thai guy can do against someone who parries his punches into the defenders elbow or blocks the kick with the bent knee destruction. If a 300 lb guy takes a swing at me and I use my boxing pary to guide his fist into my bent elbow, he's then reduced to a one handed fighter in severe pain. Then, I can attack with better chances.
I wish I could show you with boxing gloves for protection- it's very enlightening.
This mixed with clinch work is some of the best self defense you can learn.
This is the same with weapons. Hit the hand that holds the beer bottle, knife or stick. Then attack if you choose. Defang the snake.

I usually parry punches so that I can counter with another punch. It is a pretty basic MT practice. For a street fighting situation I can see the usefulness of guiding the guy's bare fist and power right into my elbow. That is a good way to break a hand and end a fight... Good shit bro.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

It all sounds good, but wouldn't it be very difficult to guide a punch to your elbow? I'm no martial artist (yet) so I probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but a lot of this sounds very difficult to utilize. Almost too situational.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

It all sounds good, but wouldn't it be very difficult to guide a punch to your elbow? I'm no martial artist (yet) so I probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but a lot of this sounds very difficult to utilize. Almost too situational.

Once you Spar for a while you get use to seeing punches flying at you. After a while unless the guy sets up his punch or can fire off quick enough, you should be able to see it coming. A parry is a firm push on the side of your opponent's fist meant to deflect the punch (Works great with Boxing gloves since your opponent’s gloves slides right off yours) if you set your hands up like a boxer and then picture a jab coming at you, you can see how easily you can Parry the jab with your left hand and meet it with your right elbow.

In a street fight, I think you might not be able to do this while a flurry of punches is being exchanged, but you should be able to do it at the beginning of the encounter when the guy you are fighting is going to throw a couple of “feel out” jabs at you to see how you respond…

 

[DANABOLIC55]

It all sounds good, but wouldn't it be very difficult to guide a punch to your elbow? I'm no martial artist (yet) so I probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but a lot of this sounds very difficult to utilize. Almost too situational.

Think of your left hand forward fighting stance. Then, the typical parry comes from the rear(right) hand. Since your lead left hand is already up, all you do is raise the elbow to about nose level at the same time you go to parry the punch.
The parry is secondary at times- especially when the incoming punch is a haymaker(usually telegraphed).
Just like anything else, it has to be practiced. Use no less than 12oz boxing gloves. Even then exercise caution- you can feel it through 16oz boxing gloves. It hurts like hell. The partner throwing the punch will only throw it hard once.

It does seem that the elbow is a small point to hit. But, it's the radius of the fist that matters - which is about 4-5 inches around(softball size)The contact on any of the fingers or outside of the fist hurts just as bad.

Even if it misses, the defender has his hands high w/ elbows in position for the clinch. They are almost sucked in or colapse on top of your clinch.
I'll look for a link w/ pics or video.

 

[illusionofsize]

It all sounds good, but wouldn't it be very difficult to guide a punch to your elbow? I'm no martial artist (yet) so I probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but a lot of this sounds very difficult to utilize. Almost too situational.

Nope, exact opposite. Destructions work in any situation( well,as long as someone is attacking you).
They are also very easy to learn and with a little practice cna be executed with a higher success rate than most kicks and punchs.
When you're trying to kick or punch someone they are trying to avoid it.
when someone is throwing at you it's a predictable line of attack and thus can be intercepted and destroyed( Good God it's harder to explain than it is to show you). YOu just guide their incoming punch, or kick into your weapon of choice.
The elbow to the fist will break a hand, thus removing his weapon. Hard to do on an accomplished boxer but in most street fights......great move.

 

[illusionofsize]

Inosanto IS JKD. He's done more than Lee ever did. Folks don't realize this man is an instructor in almost every martial art out there. Even Shooto and BJJ. He was training BJJ before there was a UFC.

Yup, He is the man. He showed me American Shoot technique back in 1988 at a seminar. (told us about this Shamrock guy who was famous in Japan for it).
He moves with a grace and centered balance that few men half his age have. Danny's also a normal, decent guy. Easy to talk to, polite, very relaxed.
First time I met him I was awed. This guy trained with B. Lee!!!They invented JKD together.!!!!
HIs knowledge of the arts, not just filipino but thai, chinese, japanesee, african, is unparralled. And he is respectful of all arts.

 

[DANABOLIC55]

Yup, He is the man. He showed me American Shoot technique back in 1988 at a seminar. (told us about this Shamrock guy who was famous in Japan for it).
He moves with a grace and centered balance that few men half his age have. Danny's also a normal, decent guy. Easy to talk to, polite, very relaxed.
First time I met him I was awed. This guy trained with B. Lee!!!They invented JKD together.!!!!
HIs knowledge of the arts, not just filipino but thai, chinese, japanesee, african, is unparralled. And he is respectful of all arts.

Wow...you've been at this a while. Who was his guy with him then?
Magda, Vunak or Richardson?????

 

[illusionofsize]

Hey you know Cass too?!!!!
That man can bump you with a hip pop and actually knock you down. I wish I could master the body motion he has( his stick works pretty good too,lol)

Actually Hartsell was still doing grappling then and him and Paul were just starting the politics.The breakoffs after that got so crazy and then all the JKD boys became
" Specialists". NO offense to any of them, it was just a natural progression.
Vunak took practical combat to a new level, thats for sure. I've seen the PFC tapes and wow....

Uh, to answer your origional question the guy at this seminar was Rob LAndry, a JKD guy here in Canada. I've never actually met B. Richardson or R. Bustillo.
Danny started using Paula for all his seminars shortly after that so I got to see her a lot.
I trained with Cass in Vancouver along with Louie Lindo and the late Herman Suwanda.Both great teachers.

 

[DANABOLIC55]

Hey you know Cass too?!!!!
That man can bump you with a hip pop and actually knock you down. I wish I could master the body motion he has( his stick works pretty good too,lol)

Actually Hartsell was still doing grappling then and him and Paul were just starting the politics.The breakoffs after that got so crazy and then all the JKD boys became
" Specialists". NO offense to any of them, it was just a natural progression.
Vunak took practical combat to a new level, thats for sure. I've seen the PFC tapes and wow....

Uh, to answer your origional question the guy at this seminar was Rob LAndry, a JKD guy here in Canada. I've never actually met B. Richardson or R. Bustillo.
Danny started using Paula for all his seminars shortly after that so I got to see her a lot.
I trained with Cass in Vancouver along with Louie Lindo and the late Herman Suwanda.Both great teachers.

No I don't know him- just heared my instructor speaking of him and the guys Inosanto takes with him. I have met Joel Clark - the latest padawan. He's like a dragon on valium-very laid back but ready to explode.

 

[illusionofsize]

Dragon on valium. I like that.lol
I have not met J. Clark.
Danny has taken so many guys up through the ranks. I have trained with some of his guys as well as some other FMA instuctors. The problem is that the closest guy is in T-dot and I'm in East Canada. It takes $$$$ to train with the top boys all the time.
My instructor(ors actually, two brothers) are top-shelf. But it is always fun to learn form ledgends like Inosanto or Cicoy Canete.
Are you familiar with Bobby Tubodas Balintawak???
No Lie, he can strip a stick during a session and you do not know its gone. I'm not kidding.
I asked him to show me three times and still can't figure it out.

 

[Becoming]

D55 and illusion- this is an awesome exchange

I'll look for a link w/ pics or video.

If you find any that would be awesome

Destructions work in any situation( well,as long as someone is attacking you).
They are also very easy to learn and with a little practice cna be executed with a higher success rate than most kicks and punchs.
When you're trying to kick or punch someone they are trying to avoid it.
when someone is throwing at you it's a predictable line of attack and thus can be intercepted and destroyed( Good God it's harder to explain than it is to show you). YOu just guide their incoming punch, or kick into your weapon of choice.

Actually it makes perfect sense- what I wonder is why it is not widely used that most would think this way FIRST......

 

[illusionofsize]

Because you must learn to think outside the box.
Most traditional martial arts start with learning the basic kicks, punchs and katas. Then some light sparring. then more advanced kicks. Often weapons are not taught until Black Belt level.
In FMA you start, the very first day, with a stick in your hand.
Now don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that everyone should have a strong base in a traditional style. It teaches basics, respect, humility, and honor for all arts.
But don't allow tradition to dictate the moves you will use in a given situation. Learn to think. How many times have we heard, upon joining a new club," Thats not how we do it here". OK out of respect for your ssytem and club I will do it your way. That does not mean it is the only way.
Take a parry to a jab for example:
Karate- will teach you to block and move or strike or grab.
Kung fu will teach you to trap or roll it aside.
Boxing-you just brush it with a glove(wiping the nose)
FMA- destroy it.
But you also learn to use all the above first before the destruction( gunta).
Picutre the punch coming in, left jab at you. YOu block with you right forearm and then do something. FMA would drive a punch directly into the bicep juncture between the two muscles. If you're really good(or he's really bad) you don't even block, just hit the incoming bicep. The arm is useless for 2 to 10 minutes.

Picture trapping such as wing Chun but then adding limb destructions. Pretty cool huh.

Well, throw all that out the window now and picture stopping that punch.....with a blade.
Thats where fma close combat gets nasty. The addition of a blade.
But again you must think outside the box.
Kalis illusrimo has 12 basic angles.
12 counters
12 reversals of the counters
heaven six- down to earth.(a six beat pattern done on three differetn levels)
Four ranges:
LArgo Mano(long)
Sumbrada(middle)
Higot hubud lubud(trapping)
Dumog(grappling)
Add silat for a fifth range.(or BJJ)
360 degrees of zoning based on a "triangle zone principle"(thats the hard part)
I can show you the system literally in an hour.
I can teach it to you in a week.(but it takes along time to master)becasue even though you know all the movement and the angles of attacks, it takes avery long time to put the flow together with the thought process to react to different angles and strikes.
The warriors of old had to learn it before they went to battle so it was lean, mean and fast.
I'm sorry didn;t mean to preach. It's so hard to verbalize. If you were standing in front of me you'd know what I was describing faster thasn I can type it. lol

 

[DANABOLIC55]

D55 and illusion- this is an awesome exchange


If you find any that would be awesome


Actually it makes perfect sense- what I wonder is why it is not widely used that most would think this way FIRST......

Since this is a bread and butter technique, I'm starting to believe that it's not gonna be found free & on the web. I simply can't find one.
It really is a fight stopper. This, Thai, & BJJ is all one needs.
The destruction can also be used if an attacker takes a full mount and rains blows down- just give him those elbows to hit , then buck him off to ge the hips out.

 

[Becoming]

Picutre the punch coming in, left jab at you. YOu block with you right forearm and then do something. FMA would drive a punch directly into the bicep juncture between the two muscles. If you're really good(or he's really bad) you don't even block, just hit the incoming bicep. The arm is useless for 2 to 10 minutes.

Picture trapping such as wing Chun but then adding limb destructions. Pretty cool huh.

Well, throw all that out the window now and picture stopping that punch.....with a blade.
Thats where fma close combat gets nasty. The addition of a blade.
But again you must think outside the box.

I guess it is outside the box in terms of more traditional approaches... but it is perfect sense and seems simple and what could be more effective?... too bad you don't live out here in AZ... anywhere I can go to learn more about this (read etc and find resources out here to check it out?)

 

[young guns]

Vunak took practical combat to a new level, thats for sure. I've seen the PFC tapes and wow....

Just wondering what PFC stands for. It wouldn't happen to be Practical Fighting Concepts would it?

 

[digger]

I was googling for Bruce Tegner (now there's a long story...) and about 12 pages in, once I got past all the Amazon and eBay book sales, there were a couple of pages that had some good stuff about short stick work. Even a graphic of some Arnis triangles. I'll have to see if I can find it again and post up a link.

 

[DANABOLIC55]

Just wondering what PFC stands for. It wouldn't happen to be Practical Fighting Concepts would it?

Almost.....Progressive Fighting Systems.

I do reccomend however, that one learns to box and grapple first. That is pretty much a pre requisite. A lot of Vunak's concepts are add ons to already great arts. And, I have met some PFS instructors that couldn't hold a candle to video ninja. Just like anything, the ones who have the right drive, prowess and athleticism in the Thai and BJJ realm do the best at this as well.

his web site is: http://www.fighitng.net

if that was a no no- sorry, please remove the link. I do not teach anymore and by no way would benefit from any traffic to that site.

 

[young guns]

Almost.....Progressive Fighting Systems.

I do reccomend however, that one learns to box and grapple first. That is pretty much a pre requisite. A lot of Vunak's concepts are add ons to already great arts. And, I have met some PFS instructors that couldn't hold a candle to video ninja. Just like anything, the ones who have the right drive, prowess and athleticism in the Thai and BJJ realm do the best at this as well.

damn....i was hoping it was the practical fighting concepts that is taught in my area. oh well.

i've been looking for a RBSD studio, but can't find any....especially any that could hold a candle to sammy franco or richard dimitri.

illusionofsize mentioned vunak and his practical combat, so i thought maybe it was something along the same line, and possibly available near me. but even if it is a quality RBSD, it wasn't what was offered in my area anyway.

looks like i may just have to cross train in BJJ and Thai and check out franco's and dimitri's videos and/or books for added self defense techniques.

 

[illusionofsize]

Club in Arizona:
http://www.professorpresas.com/news2.htm

Danny's website.
http://inosanto.com/

Edgars Sulite's site( now hosted by the crazy Dog Brothers) I believe had he not died that his system would have become the predominant FMA out there.
http://www.lamecoeskrima.com/


http://www.dogbrothers.com/ These guys...nuts..but some good hardcore bros.

DO a search on:
Cicoy Canete
Cabales Escrima
Balintawak
LAtosa Escrima
KAli illustrimos

 

[DANABOLIC55]

Club in Arizona:
http://www.professorpresas.com/news2.htm

Danny's website.
http://inosanto.com/

Edgars Sulite's site( now hosted by the crazy Dog Brothers) I believe had he not died that his system would have become the predominant FMA out there.
http://www.lamecoeskrima.com/


http://www.dogbrothers.com/ These guys...nuts..but some good hardcore bros.

DO a search on:
Cicoy Canete
Cabales Escrima
Balintawak
LAtosa Escrima
KAli illustrimos

Very good links.

 

[Becoming]

Thx fellas!

 

[Big Rick Rock]

http://www.dogbrothers.com/


you have to watch the video on this web site.... SICK!

 

[illusionofsize]

Logo says it all.

"Higher consciousness through harder contact"

 

[DANABOLIC55]

D55 and illusion- this is an awesome exchange


If you find any that would be awesome


Actually it makes perfect sense- what I wonder is why it is not widely used that most would think this way FIRST......

Found Vunak's vids

http://www.pfsvideo.com

 

[Becoming]

Thx for the links again bro... i notice he had a vid with the destructions on there...

 

[DANABOLIC55]

Thx for the links again bro... i notice he had a vid with the destructions on there...

Yup. It goes through sparring with destructions. There all good. But, you gotta have your fundamentals down- footwork/ boxing/ kickboxing.

 

[anabolicfreak]

Dragon on valium. I like that.lol
I have not met J. Clark.
Danny has taken so many guys up through the ranks. I have trained with some of his guys as well as some other FMA instuctors. The problem is that the closest guy is in T-dot and I'm in East Canada. It takes $$$$ to train with the top boys all the time.
My instructor(ors actually, two brothers) are top-shelf. But it is always fun to learn form ledgends like Inosanto or Cicoy Canete.
Are you familiar with Bobby Tubodas Balintawak???
No Lie, he can strip a stick during a session and you do not know its gone. I'm not kidding.
I asked him to show me three times and still can't figure it out.

Bobby Taboada is unreal. I live in Charlotte and was fortunate to train with him a few times about 5 years ago. Check this out...

...he was demonstrating knife disarms and had the school instructor put on a thai shin/instep pad and come at him with a training knife. The instructor was coming in for real, too. Feinting and just trying to touch him with the knife... Bobby Taboada hit his hand as he was coming in with the knife and disarmed it straight into the shin guard! He just touched his hand as it was coming in and the knife went straight into his foot! Nobody could believe it so he did it again, and a third time, and fourth, and so on.

He would slip and move as the knife would come in and then every time, it was like he just parried the hand and the knife went straight into the foot or shin.

I could sit here all day saying how great he is but you have to see it for yourself. Check out his videos if you can. He is insane!

 

[AzaThoth]

The Philippines' history "as a nation" began in the 1500s (16th century) with conquest of the archipelago by Spain. The country's name, in fact, honours Philip II of Spain. Before Spanish rule, the Malay peoples of the islands had not been united under a single government but they lived under hundreds of local chieftans. They couldn't even communicate with each other as there was no common language. Ferdinand Magellan claimed the islands for Spain in 1521. Magellan was killed by a warrior resisting the Spanish intrusion. Supporters of Filipino fighting arts seem to focus on this one incident in recorded history (the killing of one prominent person) to substantiate their claim of superior techniques. In fact, more than two hundred revolts by the Filipinos against Spanish rule occured between 1565 and 1898, all to be smashed by the superior bladework of the Spanish. It wasn't until the Spanish/American war that Spain ceded the archipelago to the U.S. on June 12, 1898. In 1902 Filipino nationalists themselves surrendered to the Americans. The internally self-ruling Philippine Commonwealth was created in 1934 with independence pledged in a decade. In 1945 General Douglas MacArthur led the liberation of the Philippines when they were invaded by Japan in WWII. The Philippines became an independent republic on July 4, 1946. There are 116 languages and dialects spoken on the islands. Pilipino, a language based on the Tagalog dialect of the capital Manila on the island of Luzon is the other official language beside English. 95% of the population of the Philippines is Malay. The next largest group is 1.5% Chinese. If you research Chinese knife fighting in particular you will find it cross references to Kali/Escrima. In spite of their Kali/Escrima the Philippines were a Spanish colony for more than three centuries. The superior technology of the Spanish ruled the Filipinos for over three-hundred years until the Spanish themselves stepped aside for the overwhelming numbers and technology of the Americans. That the Filipinos with their Kali/Escrima/Arnis, were crushed and subjugated by the superior technology of the Spanish, is recorded history. That the Filipinos were unable to repel the Spanish invasion in over three-hundred years of over two-hundred squashed revolts speaks volumes for the Spanish techniques. Spanish swordsmanship and Spanish knifefighting are unequalled by anyone, anywhere in the world. Practitioners of other knifefighting systems are quite simply, mindboggled by the Spanish. (No, I'm not Spanish) Conveniently absent from your list of "experts", James Loriega an expert on the subject of blade weaponry has information on this "Sevillian Steel". You want to argue? Argue with him. I encourage the more astute to read THE ART of THE ANDALUSIAN KNIFE by James Loriega. http://www.realfighting.com/0102/andalkni.htm A very well written article, it actually prints out in six pages. I especially enjoyed the second paragraph of the Reality Knife Fighting section. It kind of puts things in perspective. James Loriega's contact address is at the very end of the article. [email protected] OR care of realfighting.com Too many people are relying on internet discussions of erroneous and highly flawed "facts" by supposed authorities who expound this drivel in support of their own egotistical doctrines. (If the shoe fits wear it!) I can only view that as I would another "Fractured Fairy Tale" on an episode of Rocky and Bullwinkle.

 

[digger]

Superior skill, or superior steel? Hard to be a great knife fighter when the only way for your side to get knives is to take them away from the other guys. 'Course, that's where the stick comes into it.

Let's talk present-day. Did the Spanish really keep up the sword-fighting tradition, or is Toledo churning out "Conan" movie props as tourist wall-hangers?

 

[AzaThoth]

Superior skill, or superior steel? Both. Spanish rapier and dagger systems had the greatest influence on the evolution of Eskrima. Eskrima is the Filipino spelling of the Spanish word Esgrima,"fencing". The Filipinos were using sticks to emulate what they obviously perceived as a superior skill, or they wouldn't have bothered. Let's talk present-day. Did the Spanish really keep up the sword-fighting tradition? "In Andalusia, as throughout other regions of Spain where cellphones, laptops, and the latest information technology co-exists alongside horse-drawn carriages, cobble-stoned streets, and ornate wrought iron balconies, there are training halls where edged weapons combat is still practiced as it was three hundred years ago". This is the very first sentence from the introduction of the article written by James Loriega that I provided the link to in my previous post. I encouraged the "more astute" to read it. If you had read it, your question would have been answered before you asked it.

 

[BOSSDAWG]

when talking about sticks one should never forget to mention the dog brothers. They had a proposition with ufc to have nhb stick events , but was turned down for being too brutal by ufc chairmen. It is all on thier website. THey are still trying to get a nhb stick deal. Until they do its just stick fights held all the time in a park. They also crosstrain students in Sayoc kali.

 

[Saintinistic]

There was an outfit back in the '70s who made a really sweet "gentleman's walking stick." No hidden sword blade, no James Bond bullshit; just a beautiful piece of hardwood and a heavy brass knob. You could whip that tip up as though it were weightless.

They still do make these walking sticks, was shown some of SAVATE's methods with preference to the cane. Savate in Australia:HERE have a look through the essays, they go into historical use of the cane, as a weapon.

On topic: The stick fighting is one of th ebest brain gym tools too. exercising the brain through opposing movements. The kung fu school nearby incorporates it into the weapon syllabus because of its ability to improve co-ordination and skill through training each side independently but simultaneously. Took a bit to get a flow happening, but when it started moving in a flow, you hum along nicely.

 

[Inspector]

This has been a great thread to read, recently i saw an Arnis Filipino arts poster at my uni, the poster looked tacky and i honestly thought any art based upon knives must be ridiculous. I was wrong and seriously will look into this martial art, i have been searching for an art to train in. And this looks very practical, If savate have anything going on in melbourne ill look into that too.

Thanks guys