Arachidonic Acid (ANABOLIC) Ask me

[Bill Llewellyn]

Arachidonic Acid (ANABOLIC) - Have Questions, ask me

I see Arachidonic Acid has been brought up recently, and there are some good questions being asked about it here. For those unfamiliar, this is an anabolic agent I patented about 5 years ago. I have said before that my reputation rests on this product, and I do mean it. It works VERY VERY WELL. In any event, instead of trying to answer questions in various threads I started this one.

* Have questions about using AA for muscle growth - Ask me.
* Don't believe it works and I am a scam - Challenge me.


Bill

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Here is a list of the licensed AA Products:

Molecular Nutrition: X-Factor
Gaspari Nutrition: Halogrol Liquigels
Universal Nutrition: Animal Test
Axis Labs: Hemodraulix
IDS: Mass Caps XP
NutraPlanet: Bulk X-Factor
EST: ThermoPhoria (pending)
XTreme Formulations: Z-Caps (pending)

 

[chazk]

how did you patent Arachidonic Acid ?
what is the patent number ?

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

how did you patent Arachidonic Acid ?
what is the patent number ?

Use patent. U.S. Patent #6,841,573

 

[chazk]

Use patent. U.S. Patent 6,841,573

Interesting that you patented a naturally occuring substance that has been studied for over 30 years

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Interesting that you patented a naturally occuring substance that has been studied for over 30 years

It is a use patent, on the application of AA for supporting muscle growth. Use patents are just as valid as other patents, and protect investments into previously unknown technologies surrounding existing materials.

Thanks though chazk.

 

[chazk]

It is a use patent, on the application of AA for supporting muscle growth. Use patents are just as valid as other patents, and protect investments into previously unknown technologies surrounding existing materials.

Thanks though chazk.

So being that you have patented it's " use " . I would assume you have direct studies to back up it's use ?
One would assume you have patented the use of AA for muscle growth or BB in general ?
What about all the stuff online that says AA cuases inflamation , athritis, joint pain and the negative stuff surrounded by AA and that people on other forums said it did nothing for them ?
Plus the fact that fattyred meat contains alot of AA unlike leanmeat.
Are you saying for some reason a bodybuilder needs to ingest AA along with their diet ,if so how does it build muscle ?

 

[chazk]

I see another product that claims to build 12lbs of muscle in 50 days....
seems to be the typical claim 10-12lbs of muscle. Myogen x claimed 10lbs
ross's androgenorator claimed 10lbs now factor x You're product claims to pack on 8 -12lbs of soild muscle.

Wonder of i take all three. myogenx ,androgenorator and factor x will I gain 30lbs or will my head just explode in anger from whipping out my wallet...


taken from you're website...

..........Currently the subject of an independent clinical study at two major universities, X-Factor™ (arachidonic acid) is being extensively researched for its amazing anabolic influence on muscle growth. Results will be published at the completion of a double-blind clinical study of 30 resistance-trained men. A preliminary “Real-Life” 50 day cycle study conducted on resistance-trained bodybuilders concluded with the following results:

• Lean Muscle Mass Increased by an Average of 8.25 lbs.
• Muscle gains up to 12 lbs.
• Body Fat Reductions up to 13 lbs.
• Muscle Pumps Increased Dramatically
• Incredible Gains in Muscle Strength and Endurance

Currently, arachidonic acid is only available from Molecular Nutrition, and is protected by U.S. Patent. The company plans to offer the patented ingredient to other bodybuilding supplement manufacturers under license beginning January 2006. Interested parties can contact the company for more information.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

So being that you have patented it's " use " . I would assume you have direct studies to back up it's use ?
One would assume you have patented the usa of AA for muscle growth or BB in general ?

My company has funded studies into AA, though full clinical studies are not necessary to obtain a patent. I am not here to talk about the patent though. If you have issues with the concept of a use patent you should direct them to the patent office. I am not a legal expert.

What about all the stuff online that says AA causes inflamation , athritis, joint pain and the negative stuff surrounded by AA and that people on other forums said it did nothing for them?

AA is not "inflammatory", but can be used by the body to support the inflammatory process. This is important because the local response to training that dictates the level of anabolic response is rooted in the inflammatory process. It dictates things like local anabolic (igf-1, insulin, androgen) hormone sensitivity, for example. If your body has an inflammatory issue, it can use AA in other tissues to also heighten the process there. This is why if you have sore joints or an inflammatory disease we don't recommend taking AA. It can exacerbate symptoms. But again, it is very safe and would not be the cause of such conditions.

As for it not working, I would certainly challenge that. I think like any supplement some people will not respond to it. But if you search the forums for feedback (check bodybuilding dot com or anabolicminds), the messages are overwhelmingly VERY VERY positive.

Plus the fact that fattyred meat contains alot of AA unlike leanmeat.

Lean meat also contains ample amounts of AA. AA is also abundant in eggs.

Are you saying for some reason bodybuilder need to ingest AA if so how does it build muscle ?

Bodybuilders use up arachidonic acid all the time because it is liberated from your muscles during training. Exercise studies also confirm the lowering of relative AA concentrations in muscle. So yes, bodybuilders not only rely on AA to support the root process of muscle growth, but they also can become deficient in this nutrient with consistent intense training.

One thing people consistently notice is that with regular training, it gets harder and hard to stimulate soreness and growth. One key reason is that AA levels get lower, and you need to stimulate more and more fibers more intensely to liberate enough AA. One of the first things people usually comment on with AA is they get sore again, and start making rapid progress as if they had just taken a long break.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

I see another product that claims to build 12lbs of muscle in 50 days....
seems to be the typical claim 10-12lbs of muscle. Myogen x claimed 10lbs
ross's androgenorator claimed 10lbs now factor x You're product claims to pack on 8 -12lbs of soild muscle.

While of course I have a company and product to promote in an over-hyped market, I do believe that these numbers are supported.I would refer you to the "unofficial" trial of X-Factor on Bodybuilding.com.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

will I gain 30lbs or will my head just explode in anger from whipping out my wallet...

I believe I am being a good sport here. I would appreciate it if you continued to direct intelligent questions at me and not snide remarks.

 

[chazk]

So could AA be the reason why when go on bulking diet and eat lots of redmeat,eggs with the yolks ,whole milk I can gain 10lbs in a month and about half muscle half fat .
After being on a lower fat lower calorie diet.
Throwing in the whole milk, whole egg and redmeat really packs on the muscle

 

[chazk]

I believe I am being a good sport here. I would appreciate it if you continued to direct intelligent questions at me and not snide remarks.

I was just busting you're chops. You made the comment " challege me "
Think I rember you posting on t-nation or some other forum like 6 months ago being bombarded with questions .

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

So could AA be the reason why when go on bulking diet and eat lots of redmeat,eggs with the yolks ,whole milk I can gain 10lbs in a month and about half muscle half fat .
After being on a lower fat lower calorie diet.
Throwing in the whole milk, whole egg and redmeat really packs on the muscle

Fat gain is usually the result of excess calories and not arachidnonic acid supplementation. If anything, you usually tend to notice muscle gain and moderate fat loss with AA. I think there is a thread up here somewhere about the role of PGF2alpha (an AA metabolite) in lipolysis.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

I was just busting you're chops. You made the comment " challege me "
Think I rember you posting on t-nation or some other forum like 6 months ago being bombarded with questions .

I like to be challenged. I thrive on it. But it is 8:30 in the morning on a saturday, and I am still groggy. So I just am not in an ideal mood to be insulted. That's all. Glad we can keep this on focus. You are bringing up points that have been leading to some good information. So I do thank you for your time.

 

[chazk]

Fat gain is usually the result of excess calories and not arachidnonic acid supplementation. If anything, you usually tend to notice muscle gain and moderate fat loss with AA. I think there is a thread up here somewhere about the role of PGF2alpha (an AA metabolite) in lipolysis.

I see you're point .

I can feel a big difference in muscle strengh gains from eating redmeat all week vs eating fish or lean chicken all week.
Eating steak every day for a week and the following week my strenght shoots up,
the extra calories from the whole foods are the reason for the fat gains.

So if I was to stay on a diet of lean chicken and fish weeks on end for heart and health reasons I could use AA as a supplement to make up for the AA i am not getting in meats..

I noticed when I used CLA a few years back at 6 grams a day for 90 days I leaned out and gained strenght.
Used sesmin oil and noticed some changes in body comp.
But have not used AA becuase of the price..

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

I see you're point .

I can feel a big difference in muscle strengh gains from eating redmeat all week vs eating fish or lean chicken all week.
Eating steak every day for a week and the following week my strenght shoots up,
the extra calories from the whole foods are the reason for the fat gains.

So if I was to stay on a diet of lean chicken and fish weeks on end for heart and health reasons I could use AA as a supplement to make up for the AA i am not getting in meats..

I noticed when I used CLA a few years back at 6 grams a day for 90 days I leaned out and gained strenght.
Used sesmin oil and noticed some changes in body comp.
But have not used AA becuase of the price..

Yes, you are noticing the effect that EFA manipulation can have on your body. I think if you took AA, particularly at a time when you were stale, free of hormonal supplements for a while, and not making any good progress, you'd be very surprised at how much it can push you forward. This is the ideal time to use AA IMO. Beginners will grow anyway, and may not know if they can attribute their gains to AA. I love to hear from a guy with years of training in, right up against a huge plateau wall, who uses AA. These are the people that can really appreciate its value.

The price can be an issue. It costs about $50 per bottle, and you need 2 to run a cycle. AA can be used as a supplement to a fish/chicken diet, but it would negate the health benefits of it. AA doesn't negatively effect cholesterol or heart disease risk, but the benefits you get from high omega 3's are due to it dampening the inflammatory response. So I would recommend cycling instead. Use AA when you are stale, and go back to your normal Omega 3 diet after.

 

[searay]

this is interetesting as i read an article about how anti-inflamatories like advil can stop muscle growth because the muscle has to be able swell and taking anti-inflamatories keeps this from happening. it said that omega 3's do the same thing and to avoid them.
not up to the level of knowledge on this as you are so i know this is a pretty basic post.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

this is interetesting as i read an article about how anti-inflamatories like advil can stop muscle growth because the muscle has to be able swell and taking anti-inflamatories keeps this from happening. it said that omega 3's do the same thing and to avoid them.
not up to the level of knowledge on this as you are so i know this is a pretty basic post.

Yes, there were a couple of studies looking at maximum OTC doses of Tylenol and Advil, and their effects on protein synthesis rates after training. Both drugs effectively blunted the normal anabolic response to exercise. I don't suspect normal (occasional) use would be a big issue, but it does seem to suggest that taking these drugs daily after training is probably not a good idea. The actual role Omega 3's here is still under debate, but there is enough to support the idea that loading high levels all the time may not be the best for muscle growth.

These studies also help explain why AA supplementation is anabolic - it supports the same anabolic training-response cascade that anti-inflammatory drugs suppress.

 

[sensational]

AA looks like a promising supplement.

Of course it will not be anabolic in the same nature as AAS, but for the athlete looking to maximize every facet of his training and recovery, it looks very promising.

Can we really blame people like Bill Llewellyn and Ross for hyping their products? They need to make money in a market where the Muscle Tech supplements seem to get bought the most...and this is of course ridiculous, but I personally can not fault a man for trying to make a living.

As far as supplementation goes, I see this supplement along the same lines as creatine and glutamine. They are supplements that will make a noticeable difference if all other factors of training and diet are dialed in.

 

[eddymerckx]

Can we really blame people like Bill Llewellyn and Ross for hyping their products?

these two names do not belong in the same sentence.

Bill is an author and known for spot on analysis of products and I would argue that there are very very few, if any, with his depth of knowledge of gear--and the ones that are close--are cobs on this site

to me, except for what we consider "real gear" it is not the product itself but the person behind it--in this case, i am not sure you could find a product that would make Bill enough money to put his name behind it if it did not do what it said it did---imho

 

[sensational]

lol.

True true, I own Bill's book, it is great.

 

[str8nubin]

Is Anabolics 2008 still going to be out in October or November?

 

[ThePOLO]

I have some Halodrol. you are referenced in the packaging info. I look forward to seeing results from it.

 

[Mavafanculo]

Yes, there were a couple of studies looking at maximum OTC doses of Tylenol and Advil, and their effects on protein synthesis rates after training. Both drugs effectively blunted the normal anabolic response to exercise. I don't suspect normal (occasional) use would be a big issue, but it does seem to suggest that taking these drugs daily after training is probably not a good idea. The actual role Omega 3's here is still under debate, but there is enough to support the idea that loading high levels all the time may not be the best for muscle growth.

These studies also help explain why AA supplementation is anabolic - it supports the same anabolic training-response cascade that anti-inflammatory drugs suppress.

1) Bill, i dont have the reference, I'll try to remember where I read it, but a recent study supposedly found that while short term use of anti-inflamatory cox II inhibitors decreases protein synthesis, long-term use seems to enhance size and strength gains vs controls. the authors theorized that longterm use caused changes in structure or metabolism or response to stress that hadnt been measured in the short-term studys

2) what is the effect of AA products on systemic inflamatory indicators such as homocystiene and C-reactive protein

3) what is the effect of AA products on blood lipids

4) what is the effect of AA products on cardiovascular plaque deposit and calcification?

p.s. props on all your work in the field.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

1) Bill, i dont have the reference, I'll try to remember where I read it, but a recent study supposedly found that while short term use of anti-inflamatory cox II inhibitors decreases protein synthesis, long-term use seems to enhance size and strength gains vs controls. the authors theorized that longterm use caused changes in structure or metabolism or response to stress that hadnt been measured in the short-term studys

2) what is the effect of AA products on systemic inflamatory indicators such as homocystiene and C-reactive protein

3) what is the effect of AA products on blood lipids

4) what is the effect of AA products on cardiovascular plaque deposit and calcification?

p.s. props on all your work in the field.

1) I am familiar with the study. It looked at elderly men, and it seems reasonable to conclude that the pain reducing effects were probably more important to this group - allowing them to train better. Just speculation. The short term studies that I referred to before with all the positive data were also with training adults, but younger.

2) Baylor University measured the main inflammatory regulator IL-6. We feel this is a very good representation of systemic inflammatory activity, which declined with supplementation plus training. IL-6 is the main stimulus used by the body to produce c-Reactive protein, so it is logical to conclude that when its main stimulus is reduced its levels are reduced also.

3) AA products have had no effect on blood lipids in several studies.

4) In all of the health studies conducted on AA, none have reported an adverse effect. Plaque is generally a very slow thing to measure though, and is not easy to see in short studies. You need to look at decades generally, not weeks. Prudence would say that we would not recommend AA for someone with heart disease, as the body may use AA differently in an advanced disease sate than it would if you are healthy. Otherwise, there doesn't seem any support for it being an acute issue in healthy people so I would not be concerned.

Overall, the cardiovascular/general safety profile of this supplement is excellent, especially compared to hormones/designer steroids.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Is Anabolics 2008 still going to be out in October or November?

Yes, but we aren't going to call it 2008 at that point. The book is being majority overhauled this year. Not sure what we will call it when released. ANABOLICS something.

 

[Mavafanculo]

1) I am familiar with the study. It looked at elderly men, and it seems reasonable to conclude that the pain reducing effects were probably more important to this group - allowing them to train better. Just speculation. The short term studies that I referred to before with all the positive data were also with training adults, but younger.

2) Baylor University measured the main inflammatory regulator IL-6. We feel this is a very good representation of systemic inflammatory activity, which declined with supplementation plus training. IL-6 is the main stimulus used by the body to produce c-Reactive protein, so it is logical to conclude that when its main stimulus is reduced its levels are reduced also.

3) AA products have had no effect on blood lipids in several studies.

4) In all of the health studies conducted on AA, none have reported an adverse effect. Plaque is generally a very slow thing to measure though, and is not easy to see in short studies. You need to look at decades generally, not weeks. Prudence would say that we would not recommend AA for someone with heart disease, as the body may use AA differently in an advanced disease sate than it would if you are healthy. Otherwise, there doesn't seem any support for it being an acute issue in healthy people so I would not be concerned.

Overall, the cardiovascular/general safety profile of this supplement is excellent, especially compared to hormones/designer steroids.

thanks bill

if you get the chance, post the cites to the study's you mentioned, I'd like to take a look

M

 

[Just Add Muscle]

Let me tell you that Axis labs Hemodraulix is like no other pump agent I have ever tried before.Those guys over there are making some really good stuff.A rep from the manufacturer was here and gave me a few samples of the product to try personally.I took 6 gelcaps before my workout and couldnt even lift up my arms to scratch my head after my workout.I would look at my bicept in the mirror and they were so engorged with blood that I did not recognize them.Insane pumps and I do believe that 6 gelcaps is very much over kill for me anyways.Excellent product,and very easy to sell.

 

[Jacob Creutzfeldt]

How much muscle can I expect from this product in 50 days again? Is it 8.25 pounds if I'm resistance trained? Where is this study published?

 

[muscleup]

Would this possibly compliment and HRT program ??? To be perfectly honest I know little to nothing about the above mentioned compound. It sounds as if it has no hormonal qualities at all. Where does the course of anabolism take place ?

 

[needtogetaas]

So dos this product sponsor ef? Or should this thread be mad in the sups forum?

 

[Tatyana]

Some basic biochem lads, as this little pathway is one of my favs.

Arachninodoic acid is a hairpin/bend shaped fatty acid that is present in our cellular membranes (i am pretty sure there is a long metabolic process to construct this C20 - meaning 20 carbon long FA (it might be longer, I am going from memory)

AA is taken out of the cellular membranes and converted to prostaglandins and leukines, which are cytokines (like mini-cellular hormones for more localised responses).

Prostaglandins and leukotrienes are pain and inflammation moderators, and why aspirin and other NSAIDS work is that the block the COX (cyclooxygenase) enzyme that converts AA to prostaglandins, therefore blocking the pain and inflammation cytokines.

There is a lot of research right now that is indicating that the inflammatory response is necessary for muscle growth, there are a whole loads of cytokines that would turn on the DNA to trigger protein synthesis.

if you google 'the inflammatory process' you will see how complex it is in itself, I think it is quite fascinating.

Really, all the processes that could have muscle grow are unknown, and this is the interesting bit, you don't need hormones for muscle to grow.

That means testosterone, GH, and IGF-1 are NOT a pre-requisite for muscle growth.

Obviously they help, but muscle can grow in the absence of these hormones, and there are women that get very muscular naturally.

 

[GUARDIAN]

so the products u mention r the only way to get it?

 

[eddymerckx]

So dos this product sponsor ef? Or should this thread be mad in the sups forum?

i don't have the nuts (or the power) to move a thread started by Bill Llewellyn....

 

[needtogetaas]

i don't have the nuts (or the power) to move a thread started by Bill Llewellyn....

I only have 1 of the 2.

 

[GUARDIAN]

I only have 1 of the 2.

power...........lolololol

 

[Zyglamail]

this is interetesting as i read an article about how anti-inflamatories like advil can stop muscle growth because the muscle has to be able swell and taking anti-inflamatories keeps this from happening. it said that omega 3's do the same thing and to avoid them.
not up to the level of knowledge on this as you are so i know this is a pretty basic post.

Inflamation is a key element in the healing cascade and I have been preaching against anti-inflamatory use for strains/sprains for years now and for the most part it falls on deaf ears because everyone is so concerned with taking time off of lifting.

 

[ottorobotto]

What about taking AA during a low carb diet/high protein (chicken breasts, and whey protien)/moderate fat (from olive oil), will it be useful? Will having the monosaturated fats from the olive oil cause the anti-inflammatory that negates the effect of AA or only if I used omega fatty acid supps?

Also what about taking this during calorie restriction? Does it affect fat loss ? Thanks.

 

[ekbenzo]

how much aa is in the halodrol liquigels?

 

[Guvna]

AA in the role of inducting dysplasic cells in the prostate?

NAIDS, via dec in AA, dec the risk of prostate cancer?


Thoughts?

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Some basic biochem lads, as this little pathway is one of my favs.

Arachninodoic acid is a hairpin/bend shaped fatty acid that is present in our cellular membranes (i am pretty sure there is a long metabolic process to construct this C20 - meaning 20 carbon long FA (it might be longer, I am going from memory)

AA is taken out of the cellular membranes and converted to prostaglandins and leukines, which are cytokines (like mini-cellular hormones for more localised responses).

Prostaglandins and leukotrienes are pain and inflammation moderators, and why aspirin and other NSAIDS work is that the block the COX (cyclooxygenase) enzyme that converts AA to prostaglandins, therefore blocking the pain and inflammation cytokines.

There is a lot of research right now that is indicating that the inflammatory response is necessary for muscle growth, there are a whole loads of cytokines that would turn on the DNA to trigger protein synthesis.

if you google 'the inflammatory process' you will see how complex it is in itself, I think it is quite fascinating.

Really, all the processes that could have muscle grow are unknown, and this is the interesting bit, you don't need hormones for muscle to grow.

That means testosterone, GH, and IGF-1 are NOT a pre-requisite for muscle growth.

Obviously they help, but muscle can grow in the absence of these hormones, and there are women that get very muscular naturally.

Good post!

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

So dos this product sponsor ef? Or should this thread be mad in the sups forum?

George has been speaking with me about doing something. Not sure if it will be X-Factor or one of the new products we are going to launch in a few weeks - but I'm sure we will figure something out. By all means though, please move it if this isn't the right spot for it. I was just trying to answer questions I noticed were coming up in other threads..

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

What about taking AA during a low carb diet/high protein (chicken breasts, and whey protien)/moderate fat (from olive oil), will it be useful? Will having the monosaturated fats from the olive oil cause the anti-inflammatory that negates the effect of AA or only if I used omega fatty acid supps?

Also what about taking this during calorie restriction? Does it affect fat loss ? Thanks.

We have a lot of natural guys that use this during calorie depletion/contest prep. It is good for fat loss, better for maintain muscle mass (even growing muscle) during calorie depletion. You will notice your best gains during calorie surplus, of course, but again, it is very applicable here.

I wouldn't worry much about the AI action of other fats. We used to be very concerned (from a theoretic standpoint), but in the real world the antagonism does not seem strong enough unless you are taking very high doses of other potent AI fats.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

AA in the role of inducting dysplasic cells in the prostate?

NAIDS, via dec in AA, dec the risk of prostate cancer?


Thoughts?

AA isn't a carcinogen, so it doesn't cause prostate cancer. It is a potent growth promoter, however, and like testosterone, GH/IGF-1, and estrogens would not be wise to supplement if you had existing cancer, as it could support the growth of these cells.

The role of AI's in reducing cancer are still not fully understood, but it may be very similar to castration and prostate cancer. When you remove a potent growth vehicle in the body you can reduce the likelihood of these things - but then again you would also not get the benefits of same.