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anyone try HMG?

iHulk

New member
HMG -could be the ultimate for PCT. It appers to be from what I've been reading and researching; this stuff is the ultimate in bringing LH and FSH levels back to normal and therefore no need for HCG at all. HCG only mimics LH secretion where this actually creates LH and FSH secretion.



"Thirty-seven patients who underwent assisted reproductive technology programme, in vitro fertilisation or embryo transfer and gamete intra-fallopian transfer, were randomised into two groups in order to evaluate frequency of premature spontaneous LH surge when stimulated with different type of hMG. An hMG (FSH:LH = 1:1) was administered for eighteen patients (group A) and the different highly purified hMG (FSH:LH = 19:1) was administered for nineteen patients (group B). Blood samples are drawn from day 3 of the cycle until hCG administration, and serum LH level are measured in the frozen samples. There were no statistical difference in the total amount of hMG used before hCG injection, days of hMG injection and the number of oocytes retrieved between two groups. The premature spontaneous LH surge occurred only one patient in group A (5.6%), but more frequent LH surge was observed in group B (42.1%) (p < 0.05). It is suggested that the different FSH/LH ratio may be the reason for the difference of the incidence of premature spontaneous LH surge."
 
Last edited:
its way more expensive than HCG but also way more effective; wheres Macro when you need 'em?
 
Not so fast.

What sounds great often isn't. For one thing, increasing LH also means increasing estrogen. I'll get back to this is a second.

Allow me to digress a bit into manipulating LH naturally.

The fact that LH secretion increases estrogen is the reason why tribulus was such a bust in older guys and those supressed from cycles. Yes, it slightly increased LH but if the body is unable to make enough testosterone, an increase in LH will send the T/e balance out of whack. There are natural supps that increase LH much better than trib (i.e. MyogenX) but that's why I suggest taking something along with it that increases "free testosterone." Of course I believe the best supp for that is "Unleashed" but you can also use the ingredients seperately. Using a natural free T booster along with a natural LH booster is not only a nice thing for "natties" but it can enhance a cycle as well.

Okay, back to HMG.

First off, by increasing LH, you need an anti e (which can hinder gains). Secondly, since HMG decreases cholesterol it may also decrease testosterone, since T is made form cholesterol. More e, less T. Ain't sounding so great now is it? Below is a study where the use of HMG killed libido in its subjects.

Maybe if you asked macro he'd tell you AF is coming out with a homebrew version of HMG made by god knows who with god knows what. Hell, if it's hot and people are interested there's money to be made. Fortunately not everybody operates that way.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. But it's better than perpetuating harmful information or capitalizing on misinformation.




Br J Clin Pharmacol
58
:3 326–328 326 © 2004 Blackwell Publishing Ltd
British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology
DOI:10.1111/j.1365-2125.2004.02128.x
Is decreased libido associated with the use of
HMG-CoA-reductase inhibitors?
L. de Graaf, A. H. P. M. Brouwers
Eight patients were identified as having decreased libido during use of statins. In two
of these cases testosterone levels were determined and appeared to be decreased.
Conclusion
Decreased libido is a probable adverse drug reaction of HMG-CoA-reductase-inhibitors
and is reversible. The ADR may be caused by low serum testosterone levels, mainly
due to intracellular cholesterol depletion.
Introduction
Hydroxymethylglutaryl-coenzyme-A-reductase (HMGCoA-
reductase) inhibitors, or statins, are widely used
for the treatment of hypercholesterolaemia. The
most severe adverse drug reactions associated with
HMG-CoA-reductase inhibitors are myopathy and
disturbances in hepatic function. Meanwhile, there is
increasing evidence in the literature that sexual disorders
may also occur during therapy with these drugs
[1].
The Netherlands Pharmacovigilance Centre Lareb,
which maintains the spontaneous reporting system for
adverse drug reactions in the Netherlands, received
eight reports of decreased libido during the use of
statins.
Reports
Patient A is a 46-year-old male with symptomatic familial
hypercholesterolaemia (increased
a
lipoprotein),
with a serum cholesterol of 7.1 mmol l
-
). At this time his cholesterol level had
decreased to 5.9 mmol l
-
1
. Fluvastatin was withdrawn
and 5 days later testosterone had increased to
13.2 nmol l
-
1
(morning value). The patient’s libido had
also returned to normal. The man concomitantly used
aspirin 80 mg daily.
Patient B, a 54-year-old male, started treatment with
pravastatin for nonfamilial hypercholesterolaemia
(cholesterol 6.1 mmol l
-
1
). Within days after initiation
of this therapy, he experienced a decrease in his libido.
His testosterone level was determined at 5.8 nmol l
-
1
(morning value), while his total cholesterol level had
decreased to 4.5 mmol l
-
1
. Pravastatin was discontinued
7 months later, and after a few days his libido
returned to normal. Four months later, testosterone
level was determined again and had risen to
22.8 nmol l
-
1
(morning value). The patient used concomitantly
aspirin 80 mg daily, diltiazem 200 mg
daily, ramipril 1.25 mg daily and isosorbidemononitrate
60 mg daily.
Lareb received six more reports concerning a
decreased libido in association with the use of statins,
one of them concerning a woman (Table 1). In none of
the reports on men were testosterone levels determined.
In three cases the outcome is known: two patients recovered
after withdrawal of the suspected drug and one
recovered after switching to another HMG-CoAreductase
inhibitor.
Discussion
Libido is related to serum testosterone levels: lower
testosterone levels decrease male libido [2]. Testosterone
in males is produced mainly in the Leydig cells,
where cholesterol is the main substrate. The Leydig cells
can absorb cholesterol from the blood via the LDLreceptor,
but are also capable of
de novo
cholesterol
synthesis [3]. Statins may interfere with the synthesis of
testosterone in three ways.
First, by decreasing plasma LDL-cholesterol, HMGCoA-
reductase inhibitors lower the total amount of cholesterol
offered to the Leydig cell. Taking into account
the amount of cholesterol in the blood, it is unlikely that
this decrease will have a significant effect. In familial
hypercholesterolaemia (patient A), the LDL-receptor is
malfunctioning [4, 5], which makes the Leydig cell
more dependent on
de novo
synthesis of cholesterol.
Statins are rather liver selective, but are found in small
quantities in the testes, where they can inhibit the
de
novo
synthesis of cholesterol out of acetate by HMGCoA-
reductase [6].
Finally, high-dose simvastatin, and possibly other
statins, directly suppress testosterone synthesis by
inhibiting the 17-ketosteroid-oxidoreductase catalysed
conversion from dehydroepiandrosterone and dehydroandrostenedione
to androstenediol and testosterone,
respectively [7].
Since cholesterol is necessary for the synthesis of
testosterone, the effects of statins on testosterone levels
have been the subject of several investigations. Most of
these studies could not demonstrate a significant decrease
Table 1
Characteristics of reports of decreased libido in association with the use of HMG-CoA-reductase inhibitors in the Lareb database
of adverse drug reactions
 
georgie24 said:
by experience nelson, HMG is extremely good...you should try it

I'd be curious to hear your experiences. I'm not doubting you but I also know the power of placebo AND THAT ISN'T MEANT AS AN INSULT. EVERYONE is suseptable to it. Including me. For example, if someone has no problem with estro sides and they take a sugar pill thinking it's an anti e and don't experience side effects it's very possible to believe the pill "worked." There's no way of knowing for sure. Incidentally, I think this the basis of homeopathy. It does absolutley nothing but if the patient believes it's helping a little a they seem to recover a little faster they're convinced it worked. Homeopathy can not work. But millions of people think it does. Millions of people think prayer works and there's no way of convincing them otherwise. Hell, I've seen guys grow on fake gear.

A few years back everyone thought saw palmetto was a libido booster. Now it's known to be an anti androgen. How can people see something that actually caused more harm as benificial? The power of belief. Or wishful thinking.

Of course I always like to keep the door open to possibilities. No one has all the answers -- certainly not me, but from what I'm seeing about HMG, it all falls in the wrong direction. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong. Just sayin'.
 
HCG causes estrogen as well; its a major culprit of oestrogen gyno. One often has to take Nolvadex or Clomid or Letro when administering HCG, so whats the difference of HMG converting to estro as a byproduct of boosting free Test, LH, FSH? The answer lies in the fact that HMG is actual FSH and LH. Not mimicing it. Therefore libido theoretically should be lifted as well.

HCG can clog the receptors in your nuts and make LH secrection virtually worthless if the receptors cannot convert to T.
 
iHulk said:
HCG causes estrogen as well; its a major culprit of oestrogen gyno. One often has to take Nolvadex or Clomid or Letro when administering HCG, so whats the difference of HMG converting to estro as a byproduct of boosting free Test, LH, FSH? The answer lies in the fact that HMG is actual FSH and LH. Not mimicing it. Therefore libido theoretically should be lifted as well.

HCG can clog the receptors in your nuts and make LH secrection virtually worthless if the receptors cannot convert to T.

True. I should have made it clear that the LH issue was a separate one.

As for HCG "clogging the nuts"...okay, it desensitizes the ledig cells. (Same thing). But that's only if it's overdone. I believe most guys use way too much HCG. The recommeneded dosages were made to elicit pregnancy in women.

However, increased LH does not mean increased libido if the estrogen spike surpasses the testosterone spike. And what the study below indictated was that HMG caused a decrease in T. This is not empirical evidence. It's proven. Now, was the decrease due to increased estrogen? Or was it due to decresed cholesterol? Or was it something else? Hard to say. It's all speculation to a point. I'm just offering another way of looking at it.

Too often people see one side of an issue and draw a conclusion -- usually the one they want.
 
duly noted and thats why its good to hear both sides of the debate.
The questions you stated was my next response. Guess the verdict is still out on that one.

But I will say this; the T-E ratio is absolutely critical and its not just these compounds that can throw off the ratio and result in poor libido and sperm count, etc. Things like taking too many SERMs or AI can eff up the T-E ratio and absolutely choke your libido. I know I've overloaded a few times on aromasin and letro whilst being on Test. I blocked /killed too much E and put my sex life on hold. But I've gotten a lot smarter and knowing my body and haven't had the happen in a long time. Its all about the ratio, finding the balance like you said.

Nelson Montana said:
True. I should have made it clear that the LH issue was a separate one.

As for HCG "clogging the nuts"...okay, it desensitizes the ledig cells. (Same thing). But that's only if it's overdone. I believe most guys use way too much HCG. The recommeneded dosages were made to elicit pregnancy in women.

However, increased LH does not mean increased libido if the estrogen spike surpasses the testosterone spike. And what the study below indictated was that HMG caused a decrease in T. This is not empirical evidence. It's proven. Now, was the decrease due to increased estrogen? Or was it due to decresed cholesterol? Or was it something else? Hard to say. It's all speculation to a point. I'm just offering another way of looking at it.

Too often people see one side of an issue and draw a conclusion -- usually the one they want.
 
iHulk said:
duly noted and thats why its good to hear both sides of the debate.
The questions you stated was my next response. Guess the verdict is still out on that one.

But I will say this; the T-E ratio is absolutely critical and its not just these compounds that can throw off the ratio and result in poor libido and sperm count, etc. Things like taking too many SERMs or AI can eff up the T-E ratio and absolutely choke your libido. I know I've overloaded a few times on aromasin and letro whilst being on Test. I blocked /killed too much E and put my sex life on hold. But I've gotten a lot smarter and knowing my body and haven't had the happen in a long time. Its all about the ratio, finding the balance like you said.

Absolutely! I've often brought the point up that the old timers used enough gear to win major contests and anti-e's hadn't been invented yet NOBODY HAD GYNO! (Not until Franco Columbo -- circa 73?)

Meanwhile I've read on boards where people actually believe you can't overdo SERMS. DUMB!

Estrogen is needed for heart health, bone density, HDL levels, libido and yes, muscle growth.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Absolutely! I've often brought the point up that the old timers used enough gear to win major contests and anti-e's hadn't been invented yet NOBODY HAD GYNO! (Not until Franco Columbo -- circa 73?)

Meanwhile I've read on boards where people actually believe you can't overdo SERMS. DUMB!

Estrogen is needed for heart health, bone density, HDL levels, libido and yes, muscle growth.


Bro, so what do you recommend for pct and to maintian gains post cycle?
 
Nelson Montana said:
Absolutely! I've often brought the point up that the old timers used enough gear to win major contests and anti-e's hadn't been invented yet NOBODY HAD GYNO! (Not until Franco Columbo -- circa 73?)

Meanwhile I've read on boards where people actually believe you can't overdo SERMS. DUMB!

Estrogen is needed for heart health, bone density, HDL levels, libido and yes, muscle growth.
definitely overdoing the SERMs takes away gains as well. They have their place no doubt but often the effects of those can be worse than that of the anabolics. The HMG seems like the way to get the testes normal production going a lot faster and more effective than the traditional Nolv/Clomid/HCG therapy.
 
Stryker1992 said:
Bro, so what do you recommend for pct and to maintian gains post cycle?

It depends. I absolutely hate Clomid but accept that if it works for you, it works for you. But I do question peoples perception of the effectiveness of many substances. Since Clomid is a legit method to restore T, I can't discount it. I just know that it can backfire.

Other factors include...

1) What you're taking.

I see guys taking EQ, Tren, Deca and Var and then loading up on anti-e's which is completely unnecessary. None of those drugs convert to estrogen.

2) How much you're taking.

If dosages aren't out of control you may not need any ae's at all. I designed "Post Cycle" for guys using prohormones and everyone who ever used it recovered nicely with no problems. Combining natural supps with a touch of A-dex is best during a cycle AND afterward in most cases.

3) Duration

If you're on for more than 12 weeks, HCG is the way to go, but again, most guys use too much. 500iu's a day for 3 days is enough in many cases. Taking HCG throughout a cycle is not a good idea IMO.

4) Gyno

Some guys never get gyno. They don't have the genetic capability. Why use Nolva if you don't have to? On the other hand, I believe an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If you get gyno, try avoiding what's giving it to you instead of trying to correct the problem afterward. Nolva sucks. It does nothing but hinder gains. Even as a gyno preventer, it can have a rebound effect. But again, guys take it because they've been told to take it and by doing so presume they're playing it safe.

Someone mentioned (sorry, forgot the name) recently about "getting a feel for steroids." That is perfect advice. It should be the Elite Fitness maxim. Overlooking that factor is the biggest mistake I see people making. Nobody knows what is doing what. They put together a bunch of stuff, call it a "cutter" or a "bulker" or a whatever, ask for some opinions -- get some half assed commentary from strangers -- and think they're being responsible.

The same goes for anti-e's. How much do you really need? Too many newbies don't seem to have time to learn. It's all overkill followed by "Help me out bros!" (Not you Stryker, I know you're not a newbie).

Sorry if I didn't answer the question directly. As I said, it depends on a lot of conditions.
 
georgie24 said:
well said nelson!

these fads have come from afar and stuck!

i hate clomid but dont want to use HCG ED either
I agree, I can't stand clomid. Never use it anymore. HCG in small dose like Nelson said @ 500 i.u eod for 3-10 days after a long cycle is the most I've ever needed. The Nolv has helped reduced puffy nipples and the letro just knocks your cock out of order.

The a-dex and/or aromasin on cycle along with Proviron have made all my PCT a cinch. But there is one side that cannot be battled that effectively and that is progesterone / prolactin sides. Cabergoline (sp?) is about as close as you'll get to fight that.... which brings me back to HMG. If your nuts are shrunk, you're feeling shutdown and your free T, LH and FSH are low or not producing -this could be a very good relatively new drug thats gaining some notoriety.

bye the way, nice post response Nelson. Nicely thought out.
 
Last edited:
ok so whats the new protocal? ( PCT)

i have everything i need to start next week

nelson what do you think about cyclofenil????
 
georgie24 said:
ok so whats the new protocal? ( PCT)

i have everything i need to start next week

nelson what do you think about cyclofenil????

Can you still get cyclo? I've used it back in the day and liked it -- which is strange since it's supposed to be almost identical to Clomid, yet it had the complete opposite effect on me. ( I've tested both many times and under various conditions -- PC, during, inbetween cycles. Always the same result).
 
Nelson, you mention that depending on the dosages of aromatising compounds in a cycle, you may not need an anti-estrogen. Up to what dosage of tesosoterone would you expect no anti-e to be required?

I have tried anti-e's in many different types and at many different dosages in the hope it will prevent water retention for me whilst using aromatising steroids, however, no combination seems to do so. Would this suggest my susceptibility to water retention is more down to diet (sodium intake?)

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks.

Nelson Montana said:
Not so fast.

What sounds great often isn't. For one thing, increasing LH also means increasing estrogen. I'll get back to this is a second.

Allow me to digress a bit into manipulating LH naturally.

The fact that LH secretion increases estrogen is the reason why tribulus was such a bust in older guys and those supressed from cycles. Yes, it slightly increased LH but if the body is unable to make enough testosterone, an increase in LH will send the T/e balance out of whack. There are natural supps that increase LH much better than trib (i.e. MyogenX) but that's why I suggest taking something along with it that increases "free testosterone." Of course I believe the best supp for that is "Unleashed" but you can also use the ingredients seperately. Using a natural free T booster along with a natural LH booster is not only a nice thing for "natties" but it can enhance a cycle as well.

Okay, back to HMG.

First off, by increasing LH, you need an anti e (which can hinder gains). Secondly, since HMG decreases cholesterol it may also decrease testosterone, since T is made form cholesterol. More e, less T. Ain't sounding so great now is it? Below is a study where the use of HMG killed libido in its subjects.

Maybe if you asked macro he'd tell you AF is coming out with a homebrew version of HMG made by god knows who with god knows what. Hell, if it's hot and people are interested there's money to be made. Fortunately not everybody operates that way.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. But it's better than perpetuating harmful information or capitalizing on misinformation.




Br J Clin Pharmacol
58
:3 326–328 326 © 2004 Blackwell Publishing Ltd
British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology
DOI:10.1111/j.1365-2125.2004.02128.x
Is decreased libido associated with the use of
HMG-CoA-reductase inhibitors?
L. de Graaf, A. H. P. M. Brouwers
Eight patients were identified as having decreased libido during use of statins. In two
of these cases testosterone levels were determined and appeared to be decreased.
Conclusion
Decreased libido is a probable adverse drug reaction of HMG-CoA-reductase-inhibitors
and is reversible. The ADR may be caused by low serum testosterone levels, mainly
due to intracellular cholesterol depletion.
Introduction
Hydroxymethylglutaryl-coenzyme-A-reductase (HMGCoA-
reductase) inhibitors, or statins, are widely used
for the treatment of hypercholesterolaemia. The
most severe adverse drug reactions associated with
HMG-CoA-reductase inhibitors are myopathy and
disturbances in hepatic function. Meanwhile, there is
increasing evidence in the literature that sexual disorders
may also occur during therapy with these drugs
[1].
The Netherlands Pharmacovigilance Centre Lareb,
which maintains the spontaneous reporting system for
adverse drug reactions in the Netherlands, received
eight reports of decreased libido during the use of
statins.
Reports
Patient A is a 46-year-old male with symptomatic familial
hypercholesterolaemia (increased
a
lipoprotein),
with a serum cholesterol of 7.1 mmol l
-
). At this time his cholesterol level had
decreased to 5.9 mmol l
-
1
. Fluvastatin was withdrawn
and 5 days later testosterone had increased to
13.2 nmol l
-
1
(morning value). The patient’s libido had
also returned to normal. The man concomitantly used
aspirin 80 mg daily.
Patient B, a 54-year-old male, started treatment with
pravastatin for nonfamilial hypercholesterolaemia
(cholesterol 6.1 mmol l
-
1
). Within days after initiation
of this therapy, he experienced a decrease in his libido.
His testosterone level was determined at 5.8 nmol l
-
1
(morning value), while his total cholesterol level had
decreased to 4.5 mmol l
-
1
. Pravastatin was discontinued
7 months later, and after a few days his libido
returned to normal. Four months later, testosterone
level was determined again and had risen to
22.8 nmol l
-
1
(morning value). The patient used concomitantly
aspirin 80 mg daily, diltiazem 200 mg
daily, ramipril 1.25 mg daily and isosorbidemononitrate
60 mg daily.
Lareb received six more reports concerning a
decreased libido in association with the use of statins,
one of them concerning a woman (Table 1). In none of
the reports on men were testosterone levels determined.
In three cases the outcome is known: two patients recovered
after withdrawal of the suspected drug and one
recovered after switching to another HMG-CoAreductase
inhibitor.
Discussion
Libido is related to serum testosterone levels: lower
testosterone levels decrease male libido [2]. Testosterone
in males is produced mainly in the Leydig cells,
where cholesterol is the main substrate. The Leydig cells
can absorb cholesterol from the blood via the LDLreceptor,
but are also capable of
de novo
cholesterol
synthesis [3]. Statins may interfere with the synthesis of
testosterone in three ways.
First, by decreasing plasma LDL-cholesterol, HMGCoA-
reductase inhibitors lower the total amount of cholesterol
offered to the Leydig cell. Taking into account
the amount of cholesterol in the blood, it is unlikely that
this decrease will have a significant effect. In familial
hypercholesterolaemia (patient A), the LDL-receptor is
malfunctioning [4, 5], which makes the Leydig cell
more dependent on
de novo
synthesis of cholesterol.
Statins are rather liver selective, but are found in small
quantities in the testes, where they can inhibit the
de
novo
synthesis of cholesterol out of acetate by HMGCoA-
reductase [6].
Finally, high-dose simvastatin, and possibly other
statins, directly suppress testosterone synthesis by
inhibiting the 17-ketosteroid-oxidoreductase catalysed
conversion from dehydroepiandrosterone and dehydroandrostenedione
to androstenediol and testosterone,
respectively [7].
Since cholesterol is necessary for the synthesis of
testosterone, the effects of statins on testosterone levels
have been the subject of several investigations. Most of
these studies could not demonstrate a significant decrease
Table 1
Characteristics of reports of decreased libido in association with the use of HMG-CoA-reductase inhibitors in the Lareb database
of adverse drug reactions
 
HMG would be an effective PCT, or on cycle drug.

The FSH (HMG) will help sensitize the testis to the effects of LH. The combo of HCG and HMG would be killer for restoring testicular function. Of course, on cycle protocol is ALWAYS better. You can get away with using 125iu of HCG during cycle to preserve testicular function and IT levels. 1000iu+ doses of HCG is only for hypogonadotropism, or hypopituitarism men whom havnt seen an LH signal in months, or ever.

The reduced libido form HMG could possibly be the excessive inhibin secretion by the testis from over stimulation of FSH…

-Pp

15. Successful treatment of anabolic steroid–induced azoospermia with human
chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin
Dev Kumar Menon, M.D.
FERTILITY AND STERILITY VOL. 79, SUPPL. 3, JUNE 2003
 
DMI said:
Nelson, you mention that depending on the dosages of aromatising compounds in a cycle, you may not need an anti-estrogen. Up to what dosage of tesosoterone would you expect no anti-e to be required?

I have tried anti-e's in many different types and at many different dosages in the hope it will prevent water retention for me whilst using aromatising steroids, however, no combination seems to do so. Would this suggest my susceptibility to water retention is more down to diet (sodium intake?)

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks.

I'm not an advocate of using an anti-e to combat water retention. The water will go away. You can sweat it out, use herbal diuretics (Protein Factory will be releasing a good one soon) or just let it subside. Water retention increases strength and brings nutrients to the muscles, yet everybody wants to get rid of it because they don't like looking puffy for a couple of weeks.

As for prolactin, SAM-e, mucana puriens and Ginsing extract will lower prolactin. Do NOT use Vitex.
 
Nelson Montana said:
I'm not an advocate of using an anti-e to combat water retention. The water will go away. You can sweat it out, use herbal diuretics (Protein Factory will be releasing a good one soon) or just let it subside. Water retention increases strength and brings nutrients to the muscles, yet everybody wants to get rid of it because they don't like looking puffy for a couple of weeks.

As for prolactin, SAM-e, mucana puriens and Ginsing extract will lower prolactin. Do NOT use Vitex.
Yes, there are benefits to the water retention, but it also greatly increases my blood pressure. Dandelion root is the only herb that helps me shed water, but that is by taking 12 herbal tablets per day!
 
DMI said:
Yes, there are benefits to the water retention, but it also greatly increases my blood pressure. Dandelion root is the only herb that helps me shed water, but that is by taking 12 herbal tablets per day!

If you have high blood pressure then take the simple solution -- lower the dosage. Or, substitute some of it with Primo.

Yeah, it takes a high dosage of dandelion. Lots of water too. Potassium helps but taking too much can be dangerous if sodium levels get too low.

Uva ursi, buchu, boswellin, horse chestnut, B6 and aloe vera will also help. Those are the ingredients in the Protein Factory diuretic. It should be out by May. It's called "DEFINITION."
 
Nelson Montana said:
If you have high blood pressure then take the simple solution -- lower the dosage. Or, substitute some of it with Primo.

Yeah, it takes a high dosage of dandelion. Lots of water too. Potassium helps but taking too much can be dangerous if sodium levels get too low.

Uva ursi, buchu, boswellin, horse chestnut, B6 and aloe vera will also help. Those are the ingredients in the Protein Factory diuretic. It should be out by May. It's called "DEFINITION."
I will give the Definition a try. Lowering the dosage does not help. I actually bloat on just 125mg testosterone!
 
HMG lowers cholesterol??

:p
 
digimon7068 said:
since you mentioned this, what are your feelings on using anti-e during a cycle??


Again, it depends on what you're using and how suseptable you are to gyno, or high blood pressure.

DMI; Yeah, that shouldn't cause a whole lot of bloat. Then again, it could be the EQ that's raising your BP.
 
georgie24 said:
nelson what dosages should we run cyclofenil and for how long?

I did 100 mgs a day for a week and it worked quite welll, though I've never gone that high with the amount of gear.

I think there are better options today. If I were to do a cycle I'd prefer a combination of low dose A-dex (1/4 tab EOD) and natural supps. It's more effective, healthier and pretty much side effect free.
 
Nelson, maybe I am misunderstanding your initial post in this thread, but you said that supplementation of HMG could ultimately decrease your testosterone levels and cited an article, but I don't see how they correlate...

The article you cited stated that the use of statins can reduce testosterone levels/libido, which are HMG-CoA Reductase Inhibitors...they inhibit the enzyme that catalyzes the conversion of HMG-CoA to mevalonate. The article itself gave three reasons why the test could be reduced due to taking this medications:

Statins may interfere with the synthesis of testosterone in three ways.

First, by decreasing plasma LDL-cholesterol, HMGCoA-reductase inhibitors lower the total amount of cholesterol offered to the Leydig cell. Taking into account the amount of cholesterol in the blood, it is unlikely that this decrease will have a significant effect.

Statins are rather liver selective, but are found in small quantities in the testes, where they can inhibit the de novo synthesis of cholesterol out of acetate by HMGCoA-reductase [6].

Finally, high-dose simvastatin, and possibly other statins, directly suppress testosterone synthesis by inhibiting the 17-ketosteroid-oxidoreductase catalysed conversion from dehydroepiandrosterone and dehydroandrostenedione to androstenediol and testosterone, respectively [7].

Those three reasons do not include an increase of HMG, or HMG-CoA, but the result of taking the reductase inhibitor...
 
ShortFuse said:
Nelson, maybe I am misunderstanding your initial post in this thread, but you said that supplementation of HMG could ultimately decrease your testosterone levels and cited an article, but I don't see how they correlate...

The article you cited stated that the use of statins can reduce testosterone levels/libido, which are HMG-CoA Reductase Inhibitors...they inhibit the enzyme that catalyzes the conversion of HMG-CoA to mevalonate. The article itself gave three reasons why the test could be reduced due to taking this medications:



Those three reasons do not include an increase of HMG, or HMG-CoA, but the result of taking the reductase inhibitor...


Ha, I didnt catch that earlier, but it seems we are talking about two different HMG's here...

HMG as FSH is awesome for PCT... HMG CoA-reductase inhibitors are a whole other drug.

-Pp
 
Nelson Montana said:
I did 100 mgs a day for a week and it worked quite welll, though I've never gone that high with the amount of gear.

I think there are better options today. If I were to do a cycle I'd prefer a combination of low dose A-dex (1/4 tab EOD) and natural supps. It's more effective, healthier and pretty much side effect free.

Id have to agree with taking a low dose of arimidex. Its a good start.

Often overlooked is combining different gear to lessen estrogen effects. Like test with deca and dbol. The deca will help prevent some of the stronger estro sides from the androgens. Arthur L. Rea talks about it more scientifically.
 
Shortfuse. Good call. And I'll stand corrected on the application. Much like HCG, HMG can have the negitive side effects which include increased estrogen and desensitizing of the ledig cells. There's also a rebound effect which can cause further suppression of T due to dependence . The purpose of HCG is more to get testicular volume back so the HPTA can be better prepare to begin recovery. For HRT purposes, HCG works as a "break" from the HRT as well as having an obvious cosmetic benefit. While reading up on HMG I noticed that it also had the same "Clomid" side effect of blurred vision which I hadn't known and found interesting. The abstact then went into the HMGcoA version which is a reductase inhibitor (which is the same principle as Saw Palmetto) which of course will lower lidido. (by lowering DHT, which isn't mentioned in the article). I included that bit of information, prematurely I now realize, because it's a seperate version of the drug. So although some of the pitfalls may remain, that particular contrindication would be erroneous. Just goes to show you. Sometimes, mixing info gets convoluted and I'm not above the occasional mess up. There are still concerns with HMG but obviously that study isn't applicable. I'd be willing to give it more cautious consideration. My apologies. Thanks for catching that one.

Primordial. Vitex is also known as "Chaste Berry." It was used by monks to lower libido. (Hence the word "chaste") It's classified as an "anti androgen. (As is the aforementioned saw palmetto, meanwhile it's known as a "male" herb. Pretty ironic, ain't it?) I believe it was Biotest who first promted it because it does lower estrogen. But it also raises progesterone -- most probably the culprit for the supressed libido. Can you think of anything worse for a bodybuilder?

Though I'm now skittish about pasting studies without going through them with a fine tooth comb : ) here's some info on vitex.




http://www.herbs2000.com/herbs/herbs_chaste_tree.htm

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...libido&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=safari :) :)
 
Nelson Montana said:
Again, it depends on what you're using and how suseptable you are to gyno, or high blood pressure.

DMI; Yeah, that shouldn't cause a whole lot of bloat. Then again, it could be the EQ that's raising your BP.

omna 500 ew 1-8
deca 300 ew 1-8
dbol 20 ed 1-3
prop 100 ed 9-10
 
digimon7068 said:
omna 500 ew 1-8
deca 300 ew 1-8
dbol 20 ed 1-3
prop 100 ed 9-10

Well ya got yourself a pretty bloaty cycle going there. The deca bloat is from prog so an anti-e won't help there. A lot of the D-bol bloat comes from increased blood volume. Tell me again what you're using now?
 
Nelson Montana said:
Well ya got yourself a pretty bloaty cycle going there. The deca bloat is from prog so an anti-e won't help there. A lot of the D-bol bloat comes from increased blood volume. Tell me again what you're using now?

i haven't started this yet. . .soon, though. . .but, honestly, i've never had much trouble keeping things in check (bloat-wise) with a clean diet and ample cardio. . .i've used nolva throughout a cycle like this too, and i'm just wondering if maybe it has the potential to inhibit my gains. . .i have letro, nolva and arimidex around. . .
 
digimon7068 said:
i haven't started this yet. . .soon, though. . .but, honestly, i've never had much trouble keeping things in check (bloat-wise) with a clean diet and ample cardio. . .i've used nolva throughout a cycle like this too, and i'm just wondering if maybe it has the potential to inhibit my gains. . .i have letro, nolva and arimidex around. . .

Nolva will hinder gains. It all comes down to your propensity for gyno. If you need it, you need it. If you don't , it's a waste.

If you can keep the bloat down with cardio, fine. (Wear a sweat belt, it'll help). I'd suggest using 1/2 mg of a-dex EOD along with some natural anti-e's. "Post Cycle" contains what believe to be the 3 best --Calcium D Clucarate, Chrysin and Bioperine. That should be plenty. And it won't kill your libido. In fact, it'll boost it.

Keep an eye on the nips. If they don't bother you you'll make better gains with this protocol. Adding some proviron (or Winny -- they both increase DHT which prevents aromatization) would be extra insurence and produce a harder look while "on."
 
Ive always thought vitex to be a good sup, so Im going to look into those points.

The chaste berry is a funny name, and Ive always wondered about its true meaning. Ive always had crazy libido from vitex, or atleast for a few weeks...

I do know the vitex has anti-prolactin effects which should mean it decreases progesterone... but we have to be careful when interpreting results from females (ovaries) and applying those same results to men (testis).

-Pp
 
Primordial Performance said:
Ive always thought vitex to be a good sup, so Im going to look into those points.

The chaste berry is a funny name, and Ive always wondered about its true meaning. Ive always had crazy libido from vitex, or atleast for a few weeks...

I do know the vitex has anti-prolactin effects which should mean it decreases progesterone... but we have to be careful when interpreting results from females (ovaries) and applying those same results to men (testis).

-Pp

That's the funny thing with hormonal flucuation. Sometimes a boost of one or the other can supress or increase libido. If you're low in prog, a little boost might increase libido but in most cases it will supress it. Most women lose libido when they go on the pill but a few who are estrogen deficient may get a boost. Then again, sometimes a boost or loss of libido has absolutely nothing to do with what you're taking at all. It's biorhythms, mood, psychology, stress, sleep, etc,etc etc. Naturally if you take something and experience an effect you're going to attribute it to what you're taking. This is what makes drawing conclusions so speculative with the whole process.

True, vitex lowers prolactin which is very appealing to bodybuilders doing cycles but other natural remedies lower prolactin better -- most notably Ginsing, Mucana puriens and Sam-e. I set out to design an "Anti Prolactin" supplement using these ingredients ( called it "Pro-Tect") but it was shelved due to the fact that the audience for it is so small. My other supps are all geared for bodybuilders and I know that's a limited audience as well. Things that raise free testosterone or work as PCT aren't exactly of interest to the general public but guys who understand those principles will use them. But an anti-prolactin is just too arcane. Maybe someday. In the meantime, you can put those ingredients together yourself. They work.

By the way, anyone doing a blood test should get prolactin levels checked and it should be under 10ng/mL.

And somebody give iHulk some karma.
:)
 
Oh, and another thing...

Don't take 5 HTP.

It helps with sleep by increasing serotonin levels, but increased serotoin raises prolactin.

Dopamine decreases it. Mucana Puriens increases dopamine and is used in treatment of Parkensons. It's essentially an herbal version of Bromocriptine and should be used sparingly.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Absolutely! I've often brought the point up that the old timers used enough gear to win major contests and anti-e's hadn't been invented yet NOBODY HAD GYNO! (Not until Franco Columbo -- circa 73?)

Meanwhile I've read on boards where people actually believe you can't overdo SERMS. DUMB!

Estrogen is needed for heart health, bone density, HDL levels, libido and yes, muscle growth.

I agree here. This is why if you read my profile on Letro from steroid.com (2 years ago), I have a very different take on it from my profile on MesoRx (2 months ago).

I actually lowered my estrogen so much trying to get rid of Gyno that I injured my knee and had no immune system. People just go nuts with unhealthy AIs.

The thing that kills me is that when someone starts to get gyno or bloating from their steroids, they throw in an AI.

Here's the reasoning, as far as I see it:

"I don't want to lessen my steroid assisted gains (by lowering the dose)...so I will add in an AI (and thereby lessen my gains by lowering estrogen)."
 
good stuff Nelson --
Where could one get the ingredients OTC to build this anti-prolactin regimen:
"Ginsing, Mucana puriens and Sam-e"

Nelson Montana said:
That's the funny thing with hormonal flucuation. Sometimes a boost of one or the other can supress or increase libido. If you're low in prog, a little boost might increase libido but in most cases it will supress it.

True, vitex lowers prolactin which is very appealing to bodybuilders doing cycles but other natural remedies lower prolactin better -- most notably Ginsing, Mucana puriens and Sam-e. I set out to design an "Anti Prolactin" supplement using these ingredients ( called it "Pro-Tect") but it was shelved due to the fact that the audience for it is so small. My other supps are all geared for bodybuilders and I know that's a limited audience as well. Things that raise free testosterone or work as PCT aren't exactly of interest to the general public but guys who understand those principles will use them. But an anti-prolactin is just too arcane. Maybe someday. In the meantime, you can put those ingredients together yourself. They work.

By the way, anyone doing a blood test should get prolactin levels checked and it should be under 10ng/mL.

And somebody give iHulk some karma.
:)
Also regarding what you said here about prolactin being elevated from increased serotonin; would things like "sominex" (sleep aid) which has Diphenhydramine HCI 25mg in it cause serotonin levels to be raised? Could things like that possibly cause a raised prolactin effect??


Nelson Montana said:
Oh, and another thing...

Don't take 5 HTP.

It helps with sleep by increasing serotonin levels, but increased serotoin raises prolactin.

Dopamine decreases it. Mucana Puriens increases dopamine and is used in treatment of Parkensons. It's essentially an herbal version of Bromocriptine and should be used sparingly.
 
Anthony Roberts said:
I agree here. This is why if you read my profile on Letro from steroid.com (2 years ago), I have a very different take on it from my profile on MesoRx (2 months ago).

I actually lowered my estrogen so much trying to get rid of Gyno that I injured my knee and had no immune system. People just go nuts with unhealthy AIs.

The thing that kills me is that when someone starts to get gyno or bloating from their steroids, they throw in an AI.

Here's the reasoning, as far as I see it:

"I don't want to lessen my steroid assisted gains (by lowering the dose)...so I will add in an AI (and thereby lessen my gains by lowering estrogen)."
if you have low or virtually zero estro levels will that increase the damage to soft tissue (tendons ligaments,etc)?
 
iHulk said:
good stuff Nelson --
Where could one get the ingredients OTC to build this anti-prolactin regimen:
"Ginsing, Mucana puriens and Sam-e"


Also regarding what you said here about prolactin being elevated from increased serotonin; would things like "sominex" (sleep aid) which has Diphenhydramine HCI 25mg in it cause serotonin levels to be raised? Could things like that possibly cause a raised prolactin effect??


Good question. There's actually evidence that diphenhydramine inhibits the uptake of serotonin. But don't think that low serotonin levels are good. You need a balance.

Sleep aids are weird. Is it better to toss and turn and go through a day fatiqued or is taking a aid that'll give you a solid nights sleep (and GH release) better? But of course, there's the dependancy issue. Tough call, though Diphen isn't extremely habit forming. Not "physically", at least.

The thing with 5 HPT directly affecting serotonin cause a jump in prolactin.

I'm sure you can track down those ingredients with a search.

BTW: Tylenol PM is just Tylenol with sominex.
 
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