Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
anyone here ever used or understand DFHT that could help me out? K
- Thread starter Slyder190
- Start date
blut wump
New member
This is a good article on the theory behind DFHT
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
the madcow 5x5 program in here is the one that's mentioned in the article. If you take a look in the madcow thread, you'll find a few pages here and there going quite deeply into Animalmass's DFHT if that's the one you mean or the madcow 5x5 itself is a DFHT program.
Either way, you can't miss the references on the first page which is full of links.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
the madcow 5x5 program in here is the one that's mentioned in the article. If you take a look in the madcow thread, you'll find a few pages here and there going quite deeply into Animalmass's DFHT if that's the one you mean or the madcow 5x5 itself is a DFHT program.
Either way, you can't miss the references on the first page which is full of links.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215
Slyder190
New member
Okay, for starters, I understand loading and deloading, as I used these principles while doing the 5x5 routine. But for DFHT for example, let's say one exercise calls for 4 sets of 10 reps with the same weight for each set. Now, do I have to find out what my 4 set 10RM for that exercise may be and then use a percaentage of this number to start with and then add to that weight each week? so let's say I can do a 4 set 10Rm with 300lbs for an exercise. Would I start out with 4 sets of say 260lbs, and add to this weight wach week? Like 270 the 2nd weeks and so on?
Guinness5.0
New member
I'd say you're on the right track- assuming a 4 week loading period, do like the 5x5 and aim to break records by week 3. Just use your best guess if you don't have an established max, or have a max session before you start if you feel like you HAVE to be exact.slyder190 said:
Last edited:
blut wump
New member
I'd say guess at it since it will likely have changed by the time you're reaching it. Your 13 or 14 rep max will probably be close enough to be considered a 4x10 max.
It's going to change as you make your way through the volume phase and as you hit week 4 you'll be in the process of grinding yourself down as well. I think there are too many sliding variables for any number to be called exact. It's more a case of making a good stab at it on your first run and then trying to better yourself on a second run.
It's going to change as you make your way through the volume phase and as you hit week 4 you'll be in the process of grinding yourself down as well. I think there are too many sliding variables for any number to be called exact. It's more a case of making a good stab at it on your first run and then trying to better yourself on a second run.
Slyder190
New member
Blut Wump said:
Okay, I'm still totally lost. Let's say in my very first week of DFHT, I do an exercise for 4 sets of 10 resps. I'm not supposed to fail at the tenth rep of the fourth set right? It's my undestanding that you don't go to failure too often during this routine. That's what I was saying about working upward each week, like in 5x5. So again, let's say I can cemplete 4 sets of 10 reps of an exercise using 300lbs, the tenth rep of the fourth set being the last possible rep i can grind out, would I begin my first week say 260lbs for that particular exercise (260 just a given lesser weight for example).
Guinness5.0
New member
It's impossible to say that a certain weight is "right", especially in the first week. I can tell you that the make-or-break weights would be weeks 3-4 (again assuming four weeks of loading). Basically (and this is B-Dubs wording) it goes: week 1- easy, week 2- medium, week 3- hard, week 4- brutal. A good way to look at it is that yuou want to tie records in week 3, then break 'em in week 4. If you fail in week 3 repeat that weight in week 4.
You are correct that going to failure is not the idea, but if you're pushing hard and trying to break records it's going to happen. It sure as hell shouldn't be happening in weeks 1-2, maybe in week 3 (but again try not to by setting realistic targets) and week 4 again don't aim to fail but you gotta push yourself and the nature of breaking records is that failure will occur occasionally. My 5x5 run was rife w/ sets to failure and it still worked great.
I think you're getting too caught up in the "exactness". Your example is plausible (starting at 260 when you can do 300) but to say it's the best is impossible. To paraphrase MC2, this is part art as well as science and the only way to know what's best is to leave some of it open to tweaking and learn as you go. You'll be fine. Don't think yourself into inactivity
.
You are correct that going to failure is not the idea, but if you're pushing hard and trying to break records it's going to happen. It sure as hell shouldn't be happening in weeks 1-2, maybe in week 3 (but again try not to by setting realistic targets) and week 4 again don't aim to fail but you gotta push yourself and the nature of breaking records is that failure will occur occasionally. My 5x5 run was rife w/ sets to failure and it still worked great.
I think you're getting too caught up in the "exactness". Your example is plausible (starting at 260 when you can do 300) but to say it's the best is impossible. To paraphrase MC2, this is part art as well as science and the only way to know what's best is to leave some of it open to tweaking and learn as you go. You'll be fine. Don't think yourself into inactivity
.
Slyder190
New member
Guinness5.0 said:It's impossible to say that a certain weight is "right", especially in the first week. I can tell you that the make-or-break weights would be weeks 3-4 (again assuming four weeks of loading). Basically (and this is B-Dubs wording) it goes: week 1- easy, week 2- medium, week 3- hard, week 4- brutal. A good way to look at it is that yuou want to tie records in week 3, then break 'em in week 4. If you fail in week 3 repeat that weight in week 4.
You are correct that going to failure is not the idea, but if you're pushing hard and trying to break records it's going to happen. It sure as hell shouldn't be happening in weeks 1-2, maybe in week 3 (but again try not to by setting realistic targets) and week 4 again don't aim to fail but you gotta push yourself and the nature of breaking records is that failure will occur occasionally. My 5x5 run was rife w/ sets to failure and it still worked great.
I think you're getting too caught up in the "exactness". Your example is plausible (starting at 260 when you can do 300) but to say it's the best is impossible. To paraphrase MC2, this is part art as well as science and the only way to know what's best is to leave some of it open to tweaking and learn as you go. You'll be fine. Don't think yourself into inactivity
B-dubs?.....so basically find a weight that is still less than my 4 set 10RM max correct? Tie in week 3 and break in week 4. You sure? have you done it this way? results?
blut wump
New member
That is how you'd do it in most dual-factor programs. When I asked for a link to your program earlier it ws in case you were doing something more like the one at Core.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/core9.htm
That one at Core would have you go all out in week one and then try to better it in week2. Any dual factor program is going to vary based on the individual's response to overload.
Most DFHT programs are of the gentler variety of easy-medium-hard-harder for the first four weeks to give you a ramp into the workload to give some acclimatizing time. Later you can skip the first week and simply aim to hit the last cycle's records in your second week for three weeks of volume each run.
The one over at Core would just have you rolling wave after wave of brutal loading for two or three weeks followed by a week of unloading and straight back in again with as much as you can do. Always increasing the weight when you get all the reps and keeping it steady when you fail.
The way I described it earlier and the way G5.0 described it is pretty much the 'standard way' and the way that the madcow 5x5 works. I've not yet done the version over at Core.
Regarding your weight choice it's all about how well conditioned you are. For most people, I'd say that starting at 260 for a 300 record might be a little high and would be a better choice for week 2 and start even lighter at 225 for week 1. 260 might be right for you if you are already in better shape. Sorry not to have a spot on answer but it's the kind of thing only a coach that knows you could say. You have to know your own tolerances to pick the weight.
The first cycle of a new dual-factor program is always a bit of guesswork and then you home in on in in the second and later cycles as you learn just how the program hits your body.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/core9.htm
That one at Core would have you go all out in week one and then try to better it in week2. Any dual factor program is going to vary based on the individual's response to overload.
Most DFHT programs are of the gentler variety of easy-medium-hard-harder for the first four weeks to give you a ramp into the workload to give some acclimatizing time. Later you can skip the first week and simply aim to hit the last cycle's records in your second week for three weeks of volume each run.
The one over at Core would just have you rolling wave after wave of brutal loading for two or three weeks followed by a week of unloading and straight back in again with as much as you can do. Always increasing the weight when you get all the reps and keeping it steady when you fail.
The way I described it earlier and the way G5.0 described it is pretty much the 'standard way' and the way that the madcow 5x5 works. I've not yet done the version over at Core.
Regarding your weight choice it's all about how well conditioned you are. For most people, I'd say that starting at 260 for a 300 record might be a little high and would be a better choice for week 2 and start even lighter at 225 for week 1. 260 might be right for you if you are already in better shape. Sorry not to have a spot on answer but it's the kind of thing only a coach that knows you could say. You have to know your own tolerances to pick the weight.
The first cycle of a new dual-factor program is always a bit of guesswork and then you home in on in in the second and later cycles as you learn just how the program hits your body.
Slyder190
New member
Blut Wump said:
Yeah, the program at Core is an easier to understand updated version as Amtt reynolds put it if I'm not mistaken.
Deloading in the case of this program, does that just mean cutting back on the over all volume? I know in 5x5 deloading is when you sitch from 5x5 weight s and begin with those same weights and then do 3x3 and then begin again. But DFHT< that just means dropping many of the exrfecise to just on or two exercises for each workout during deloading correct? I would be doing the core version. I must m=be the posterboy for meatheads, cuz I am having so much trouble grasping this whole thing. Please forgive me, just having trouble getting to "click". I kinda feel dumb becuae it seems like others can look at it get it immediately. I'm a little slow, but I think I'll finally go, "oh I get it now", as i talk to guys like yourself. Thanks for the help and patience.
blut wump
New member
Deloading or unloading really just means taking it easy on yourself for a week to recharge and and let the fatigue go away so you can hit the weights again at full whack the following week. The loading weeks are so hard that no-one can keep doing them week after week so they build in the deloading period to let your body get its breath back while still working hard enough not to lose conditioning.
In the Core version of DFHT you drop some of the exercises and keep the weights high. By dropping a lot of the exercises you give yourself chance to recover. A lot of programs will have you dropping entire workouts, too, but the one at Core just has you dropping a few exercise each day. Don't worry if you feel "Is that it?" during a deloading week. It's intended that way for recovery even in a fairly brutal program like this one.
No sweat, bro. Always glad to help out. I know you'll help when I have questions and we're all richer from it.
In the Core version of DFHT you drop some of the exercises and keep the weights high. By dropping a lot of the exercises you give yourself chance to recover. A lot of programs will have you dropping entire workouts, too, but the one at Core just has you dropping a few exercise each day. Don't worry if you feel "Is that it?" during a deloading week. It's intended that way for recovery even in a fairly brutal program like this one.
No sweat, bro. Always glad to help out. I know you'll help when I have questions and we're all richer from it.
Slyder190
New member
Blut Wump said:
Okay I still got a ferw more questions, but the lightbulb just went on and I do beleive it's starting to click now. I gotta run right now, but when i post again I think i may just cut and paste the core workout with the left-over corresponding question s and I think that may be all I need to get started. WWhat are your mass gain experiences from this type of workout?
Jim Ouini
New member
Blut Wump said:
Like you said you can deload and 'take it easy' by dropping intensity or volume or frequency so you can let the body recover and let fatigue dissipate...most programs I've seen (which admittedly isn't a lot) keep intensity high and decrease volume.
But I'm wondering what would happen if you drop intensity and keep volume the same or as an extreme drop them both. Fatigue would still dissipate, fitness would still remain and preparedness still greater than when you began loading...
Actually now that I think of it doesn't Smolov have 1 week of active recovery with plyo or something?
I wonder if it depends on the athlete and specific to their sport - strength, speed, endurance...
blut wump
New member
I think one of the aspects to keeping intensity high is be the anabolic nature of throwing heavy weights around. If you drop intensity too much for a deload then you lose this positive benefit. If you drop weight and volume then you risk deconditioning. I also think that a small amount of moderately heavy lifting is fairly gentle on the muscles.
I think that, like so much of dual-factor training, it's another balancing act that the individual can get mostly right by following the guidelines and optimize by knowing himself.
You could be right. Maybe coolcolj would have an opinion.
I think that, like so much of dual-factor training, it's another balancing act that the individual can get mostly right by following the guidelines and optimize by knowing himself.
You could be right. Maybe coolcolj would have an opinion.
Guinness5.0
New member
Hopefully not.slyder190 said:
blut wump
New member
You just work the exercise wave after wave. If you fail then you use the same weight the next time. If you hit all the reps you bump the weight by however much the program calls for. This means that you could often be failing but failure isn't something you aim for. Ideally you get stronger to keep pace with the weight increases wave after wave of loading and deloading.slyder190 said:
Start with your current 4x10 max or something near to it. If you get all the reps then go higher next time. On the question of being exact, I still reckon it's not possible to be exact.
If you were to do 4x10 today as a test on your overhead press and get the weight exact then I can think of two reasons why this might not be exact when you start the program
a) You might be a bit stronger next time
b) In the program you'd be running it after a heavy bench. Doing the bench first will reduce what you can handle.
When you start a program like this you expect to run a goodly handful of waves. Get the start weights all somewhere close and, by the system of bumping if you make and holding steady if you fail, the weights will home themselves in week after week to keep pace with your gains.
If you want to take a preliminary week finding good start weights it won't do any harm but, if you think about it, you're effectively starting the program by doing that. Make sure that you have a reasonable start weight for every exercise and that's as far as you can go.
Slyder190
New member
Blut Wump said:
So then I do find 4x10RM and start at a lower weight. So that part is similar to 5x5 where I find a 5x5RM, but then start out with a lower percentage of that number and work my way up. So I'm not hittin failure the first week, maybe by the 3rd and breakin it by the 4th week maybe. Right?
Slyder190
New member
Blut Wump said:
I was gonna begin by experimenting actually and doing all of the sets as they are laid out in the Core version. I would do the exercises in sequence trying to pick weights that would allow me to just reeach the required number of sets and eps, failing on the last rep of the set. Then I would go back and start out with weights for every exercise lwer than what my max weight would be and work my way up in the laoding weeks. That sound right?
I know that I'd have to take in to consideration that musclke grouops would begin fatigue, say delts after doing chest, which is why I'd try and take a few weeks of just running through the exercises given order, trying to find out starting 4x10RM 0r 3x8RM, or whatever each exercise calls for in regards to set and reps. Once I have a basic idea and i keep record, I would then "officially" begin the program by starting out doing all the exercises required, but with lower weights than what my MAX would be for whatever given exercise. This right? Am I gettin it?
Slyder190
New member
Okay, I think my problem was that I got it confused with the foundation pronciples for 5x5. I thought I had to fund maxes and start out below them and work up to them, and then surpass them, as with 5x5. I got it now. It took a million times lookin it over, but once I stopped thinking it was a different type of 5x5 (so to speak), it clicked.
Okay, so I have another question. How well does this routine work for putting on size as compared to 5x5? 5x5 got me a lot stronger, but not bigger at all, although i was trying to stay lean even though trying to bulk. and there's also the fact that I gave it a run not long after I ended a cycle in which I did DC Training. I kept every last pound I gained though. I'm very psyched to start DFHT and then switch back and forth between that and 5x5 and perhaps another of Matt's routines.
To all the guys who chimed in and shared an answer, thanks, and Blut Wump, thank you for sticking with me on this thread. I really can't thank you enough. There's no pricetag for information that can be learned to help one achieve his goals and better himself. I value what I have come to learn about bodybuilding and the way the body works. (and obviously I don't know it all now, but enough to keep me progressing). I only wished I had begun talking to guys like Blut Wump, AnimalMass and Madcow, years ago. I feel like I wasted years on end with the classic BB routines of training to failure in typical routines week after week, year after year. Not to mention money wasted on juice, when proper training would have been more valuable at the time. I'm a man on a mission now. I can't wait to eventually hit another cycle in conjunction with the new ways of training I've learned.
Okay, so I have another question. How well does this routine work for putting on size as compared to 5x5? 5x5 got me a lot stronger, but not bigger at all, although i was trying to stay lean even though trying to bulk. and there's also the fact that I gave it a run not long after I ended a cycle in which I did DC Training. I kept every last pound I gained though. I'm very psyched to start DFHT and then switch back and forth between that and 5x5 and perhaps another of Matt's routines.
To all the guys who chimed in and shared an answer, thanks, and Blut Wump, thank you for sticking with me on this thread. I really can't thank you enough. There's no pricetag for information that can be learned to help one achieve his goals and better himself. I value what I have come to learn about bodybuilding and the way the body works. (and obviously I don't know it all now, but enough to keep me progressing). I only wished I had begun talking to guys like Blut Wump, AnimalMass and Madcow, years ago. I feel like I wasted years on end with the classic BB routines of training to failure in typical routines week after week, year after year. Not to mention money wasted on juice, when proper training would have been more valuable at the time. I'm a man on a mission now. I can't wait to eventually hit another cycle in conjunction with the new ways of training I've learned.
blut wump
New member
We're all in the same position, I think. Years spent on and off with BB training splits with varying levels of progress. Madcow has evangelized the dual-factor training on here and opened a lot of eyes to how effective it can be.
I haven't run the DFHT program at Core yet but it comes well recommended. It should add more strength to you but, as I guess you already know, if you want to grow then you have to eat. You can train for strength and for mass but growth only comes from excess calories. That doesn't necessarily mean eating clean but if you're not eating over maintenance then you're not going to grow.
Best of luck with the program. K when I recharge.
I haven't run the DFHT program at Core yet but it comes well recommended. It should add more strength to you but, as I guess you already know, if you want to grow then you have to eat. You can train for strength and for mass but growth only comes from excess calories. That doesn't necessarily mean eating clean but if you're not eating over maintenance then you're not going to grow.
Best of luck with the program. K when I recharge.
Guinness5.0
New member
I just did some more reading and it does appear that the loading is more aggressive as compared to the bill starr 5x5. My new, revised advice ( 
) would be to get close to what you think your PR is for week 1, try to equal the PR week 2, then beat it week 3.
This looks like something I may do soon. I've been keeping everything in the 5 rep range and it is beating me down. Are you planning a journal so we can see how things go?
) would be to get close to what you think your PR is for week 1, try to equal the PR week 2, then beat it week 3. This looks like something I may do soon. I've been keeping everything in the 5 rep range and it is beating me down. Are you planning a journal so we can see how things go?
Slyder190
New member
Guinness5.0 said:I just did some more reading and it does appear that the loading is more aggressive as compared to the bill starr 5x5. My new, revised advice (
This looks like something I may do soon. I've been keeping everything in the 5 rep range and it is beating me down. Are you planning a journal so we can see how things go?
Will I keep a log of every workout, but not a nutrtion log. However, I will begin a cycle in October and am now just sarting to find the weights I'll need to start with, as well as just starting to increase calories slowly over the next month or so. So it will be hard to say how well exactly this program will work for me. I'll keep you updated if ya like though.
Similar threads
Domestic-Supply
NPP - Beligas is out, help me pick
