Another 30 something heart failure

[mwm5]

So in the past few weeks this is the second younger, in great shape guy i've heard about passing from heart failure. what's the deal??

http://sports.aol.com/story/_a/two-time-olympic-champion-dies-at-36/20080715113109990001

 

[redsamurai]

I thought the same thing when I saw that article...........like wtf?? Something is definitely up. Theres some shit somewhere that they've been putting in the food or the air or water or whatever..........."SOMETHING" is fucking dudes up.

 

[wootoom]

jesus thats scary man..sorry to hear that

 

[silverstar1025]

This scares me Especially when I feel issues in myself it makes me paranoid. Damn anxiety!

 

[redsamurai]

I'm personally through with steroids........especially the one's that may elevate cholesterol. The only thing I might "consider" doing in the future is plain Test........that's it...........nothing else ever ever ever again.

 

[cindylou]

This scares me Especially when I feel issues in myself it makes me paranoid. Damn anxiety!

... yep.

 

[SaladFork]

I'm personally through with steroids........especially the one's that may elevate cholesterol. The only thing I might "consider" doing in the future is plain Test........that's it...........nothing else ever ever ever again.

Testosterone is derived from cholesterol.

 

[redsamurai]

Testosterone is derived from cholesterol.

yeah, but I don't think it raises your cholesterol quite like some of the other orals like var. But like I said, I might be just done period. Certainly for the foreseeable future.

I wanted to ask you about your issue bro.........pm if you want.

 

[silverstar1025]

... yep.

I knew you would feel me on this. Damn chest pains I always dismiss because I am always being told it is anxiety. Watch one day I will be having a heart attack and I will be saying to myself "it's just anxiety". lol

 

[bigmann245]

I knew you would feel me on this. Damn chest pains I always dismiss because I am always being told it is anxiety. Watch one day I will be having a heart attack and I will be saying to myself "it's just anxiety". lol

that would suck....

 

[eddymerckx]

olympic canoeing? where have i been....

 

[cindylou]

I knew you would feel me on this. Damn chest pains I always dismiss because I am always being told it is anxiety. Watch one day I will be having a heart attack and I will be saying to myself "it's just anxiety". lol

I know, of course the exact same thing was going through my head too. I've taken alot of shit in my day, i took ECA's (and like a million times what I should have) for years without a break, plus clen a couple times. Im sure i'm fine but anxiety dont help. I'm paranoid as hell.

I will never take another diet pill again or anything. its just not worth it.

Cept diuretics

 

[Mr. dB]

I will never take another diet pill again or anything. its just not worth it.

Cept diuretics

You're becoming a Scientologist?

 

[cindylou]

You're becoming a Scientologist?

Yes.


lol. no. it does not help anxiety. thats all. Im not against them

 

[joefire_2008]

I knew you would feel me on this. Damn chest pains I always dismiss because I am always being told it is anxiety. Watch one day I will be having a heart attack and I will be saying to myself "it's just anxiety". lol

LOL... you're killing me here LOL...
Don't worry usually woman are only carriers...

 

[gjohnson5]

Testosterone is derived from cholesterol.

Actually the metabolic pathways of both DHEA and Pregneolone both start with cholesterol. So basically many many hormones can be created through catalytic reactions with cholesterol , not just testosterone

 

[joefire_2008]

yeah, but I don't think it raises your cholesterol quite like some of the other orals like Anavar - oxandrolone - . But like I said, I might be just done period. Certainly for the foreseeable future.

I wanted to ask you about your issue bro.........pm if you want.

It does... most all do. They also show elevated AST & ALT #'s indicating something is happening to the liver that is tramatic... This and the Lipids is how Dr.'s if they suspect can tell if you are using.

 

[silverstar1025]

LOL... you're killing me here LOL...
Don't worry usually woman are only carriers...

lol I am serious!!!

 

[joefire_2008]

lol I am serious!!!

So am I...LOL


Woman out live men as a rule... I wonder why??? HMMMM...

 

[eddymerckx]

So am I...LOL


Woman out live men as a rule... I wonder why??? HMMMM...

5 minutes of nagging is equiv to 250,000 x-rays

 

[p0ink]

hmm...makes me feel better about having both an echo and ekg done last time i had my physical.

kids, it does pay off to work in the medical field.

 

[silverstar1025]

hmm...makes me feel better about having both an echo and ekg done last time i had my physical.

kids, it does pay off to work in the medical field.

I had an EKG recently as well. How often should one get them though? I mean how quickly in between being checked could a bad problem arise?

 

[pin]

We're all gonna die.

 

[SaladFork]

yeah, but I don't think it raises your cholesterol quite like some of the other orals like var. But like I said, I might be just done period. Certainly for the foreseeable future.

I wanted to ask you about your issue bro.........pm if you want.

I have had ultrasounds done recently on my heart murmur, doctors said it was nothing to be concered about. A few years ago I could make my heart skip a beat by holding my breath when I was really relaxed, it tripped me out. I had my girl friend in tears one night doing that, she thought I was going to die.

 

[jerseyrugger76]

Interestingly, if you go to www.mydeathspace.com, hit "latest articles" button in the top left, and enter "heart" as your search term in the screen that follows, you'll get about 8 pages of people with myspace pages who have died of sudden heart attacks, heart failure, etc. There are some exceptions in there (e.g. one guy was stabbed in the heart, so his name came up), but the number of people in their teens, 20's, and 30's is really shocking to me.

I remember being 18 an having my left lung spontaneously start to collapse. The symptoms are EXACTLY like those of a heart attack -- straight out of a medical text book. On the way to the hospital, I kept thinking, "Nah, no one in their teens has ever had a heart attack."

Well, evidently, I was wrong.

 

[joefire_2008]

I have had ultrasounds done recently on my heart murmur, doctors said it was nothing to be concered about. A few years ago I could make my heart skip a beat by holding my breath when I was really relaxed, it tripped me out. I had my girl friend in tears one night doing that, she thought I was going to die.

LOL.. poor girl. murmurs are very common. One of the main things that stop people from getting into military service. Is it in the wall or is it the valve?
Remember to let your dentist know before you have any dental work done.

 

[SaladFork]

LOL.. poor girl. murmurs are very common. One of the main things that stop people from getting into military service. Is it in the wall or is it the valve?
Remember to let your dentist know before you have any dental work done.

It's a valve... I can feel it flutter now and then.

 

[silverstar1025]

It's a valve... I can feel it flutter now and then.

Does it flutter when a pretty girl excites you?

 

[bigbadassdude]

My heart seems to act up sometimes, but all I have to do is take some klonopin and I'm fine... Stress can kill.... My sister had an EKG and everything looked normal... 6 months later, she nearly died and had to have a triple bypass.. Doctors were baffled as she had almost no risk factors. She was under trememdous stress at the time.

 

[gjohnson5]

yeah, but I don't think it raises your cholesterol quite like some of the other orals like var. But like I said, I might be just done period. Certainly for the foreseeable future.

I wanted to ask you about your issue bro.........pm if you want.

Yeah. many people stay away from winstrol for this and other reasons

 

[SaladFork]

Does it flutter when a pretty girl excites you?

It flutters everytime I look at your avi!

 

[silverstar1025]

It flutters everytime I look at your avi!

 

[SaladFork]

Interestingly, if you go to www.mydeathspace.com, hit "latest articles" button in the top left, and enter "heart" as your search term in the screen that follows, you'll get about 8 pages of people with myspace pages who have died of sudden heart attacks, heart failure, etc. There are some exceptions in there (e.g. one guy was stabbed in the heart, so his name came up), but the number of people in their teens, 20's, and 30's is really shocking to me.

I remember being 18 an having my left lung spontaneously start to collapse. The symptoms are EXACTLY like those of a heart attack -- straight out of a medical text book. On the way to the hospital, I kept thinking, "Nah, no one in their teens has ever had a heart attack."

Well, evidently, I was wrong.

My ex girl friend brother (23) was out mowing the lawn at their grandparents house last summer, fell over and died of heart failure. She called me asking for all the sups I was on cause he was also working out. To this day they never found out what happened to him. He was in shape and healthy, no drugs (that I knew of) and worked out quite a bit. He didn't do juice either.

 

[joefire_2008]

It flutters everytime I look at your avi!

That was good... +1

 

[silverstar1025]

That was good... +1

Salad is my boy. He always knows how to make the ladies feel special.

 

[joefire_2008]

Salad is my boy. He always knows how to make the ladies feel special.

I can respect a true artist...

 

[chewyxrage]

I was thinking about this after reading Guardian's RIP thread.

I also recall another member here who was older (mightymouse) who died in a similar nature out of nowhere. He was older, also in great shape, but on the juice. Little scary.

 

[galaxy]

I'm personally through with steroids........especially the one's that may elevate cholesterol. The only thing I might "consider" doing in the future is plain Test........that's it...........nothing else ever ever ever again.

I respect your decision, but remember what pertains to other may not you. I tend to think these 30 somethings are pre dispositioned, with or without the steroids. Many variables. Did they abuse stimulants? Smoke? Rec drugs? Drink like fish when on steroids?

I still feel when used within reason and intelligently they are beneficial. You know how many college athletes/highschool athletes drop dead a year? I dont know either.lol, but I do know its at least a few in this country alone. From cheerleaders to rowers. it just happens.

 

[redsamurai]

I respect your decision, but remember what pertains to other may not you. I tend to think these 30 somethings are pre dispositioned, with or without the steroids. Many variables. Did they abuse stimulants? Smoke? Rec drugs? Drink like fish when on steroids?

I still feel when used within reason and intelligently they are beneficial. You know how many college athletes/highschool athletes drop dead a year? I dont know either.lol, but I do know its at least a few in this country alone. From cheerleaders to rowers. it just happens.

The mentzer bro's dying within weeks of each other from heart failure has got to mean something. I always thought at the doses I took that I was fine............it's still not known what caused my condition, but I simply can't take the chance. If anyone has even the slightest cardiac problems..........you have to quit on the spot.

 

[binö]

I thought the same thing when I saw that article...........like wtf?? Something is definitely up. Theres some shit somewhere that they've been putting in the food or the air or water or whatever..........."SOMETHING" is fucking dudes up.

jorge bush is def up to something here, that's why i'm voting for change

 

[calveless wonder]

I was thinking about this after reading Guardian's RIP thread.

I also recall another member here who was older (mightymouse) who died in a similar nature out of nowhere. He was older, also in great shape, but on the juice. Little scary.

uh...mightymouse is alive dude lol.

i think it was smartstrongsexy or some shit. the dude with underdog as an avatar. i was talking about that with KB the other day

 

[binö]

I thought the same thing when I saw that article...........like wtf?? Something is definitely up. Theres some shit somewhere that they've been putting in the food or the air or water or whatever..........."SOMETHING" is fucking dudes up.

meh, i think that we are just getting older and experiencing more of life's evil calling cards
peeps have been dying of heart failure for as long as humaness have shat upon the earf
just now we can identify the cause of death, as opposed to in the past blaming it on a monster in the sky

 

[joefire_2008]

The mentzer bro's dying within weeks of each other from heart failure has got to mean something. I always thought at the doses I took that I was fine............it's still not known what caused my condition, but I simply can't take the chance. If anyone has even the slightest cardiac problems..........you have to quit on the spot.

One of the reasons I never did juice was what it does to your heart... I never wanted to take the chance especially after my father had a heart attack at the age of 36, and again at 45... Genes are a bitch, esp. when you've seen what your dad's gone thru with the predisposition.

 

[redsamurai]

meh, i think that we are just getting older and experiencing more of life's evil calling cards
peeps have been dying of heart failure for as long as humaness have shat upon the earf
just now we can identify the cause of death, as opposed to in the past blaming it on a monster in the sky

Something is bringing out our "predisposition". Even doctors at the cleveland clinic acknowledge their seeing younger and younger people with cardiac problems. My own doctor has seen marathon runners in their 20's. Nobody has any clue what's going on.

 

[Powerbuilder333]

We all got to die of something, sometime.
I'm not sayin' to take foolish risks (DNP / Meth / Crack / ect.) - but you can't be afraid to live either.

 

[calveless wonder]

if i had a known heart condition, i wouldnt be fucking with juice. sam is obviously making the right decision.

but fact is lots of people juice and there are not a ton of cardiac arrest deaths (in proportion to the amount of users). i tend to agree with galaxy.

but obviously if you have a condition steroids will kill you alot faster.

both my moms parents are 95 years old and still alive. not in the best shape, but still alive.

my dads mom lived till 90 and she smoked pretty much all her life (gave her really bad osteoperosis though) and his dad lived till about 85. also smoked, only died because he slipped and fell in the tub.

all my grandparents lived very unhealthy lifestyles. big drinkers and smokers

good genes run in the fam fortunately

 

[jerseyrugger76]

if i had a known heart condition, i wouldnt be fucking with juice. sam is obviously making the right decision.

but fact is lots of people juice and there are not a ton of cardiac arrest deaths (in proportion to the amount of users). i tend to agree with galaxy.

but obviously if you have a condition steroids will kill you alot faster.

both my moms parents are 95 years old and still alive. not in the best shape, but still alive.

my dads mom lived till 90 and she smoked pretty much all her life (gave her really bad osteoperosis though) and his dad lived till about 85. also smoked, only died because he slipped and fell in the tub.

all my grandparents lived very unhealthy lifestyles. big drinkers and smokers

good genes run in the fam fortunately

I envy your grandparents. If I knew I could live till 90 and avoid the usual consequences, I go buy a pack of Parliament Lights (in the box) and fifth of Jack right now!

Unfortunately, all of the big drinkers and big smokers in *my* family (i.e. just about everyone except my parents) all died of the usual cancers and terminal illnesses associated with such vices, so I figure I'm pretty much fucked on that front.

 

[redsamurai]

It's hard to imagine how a guy like Guardian, who OBVIOUSLY took meticulous care of himself, could have just been predetermined to kick the bucket. You know that guys diet was healthy as fuck and spot on.......no way you look like that while eating shit, I don't care how much you workout. There was some other factor that played into his death.......maybe it was genes, but that's fucked that you can take care of yourself that well and still not overcome a predisposition....

And as for roids, if your arteries are clear and your heart isn't enlarged, you pretty much can rule out the juice for having any detrimental effect to your heart right? Is there any other way that juice can affect your heart? I am only aware of cholesterol and enlargement issues.

 

[Powerbuilder333]

^^^ My cardiologist said that androgen's are known anti arrhythmic. Meaning they can knock your heart out of it's normal rhythm.

 

[redsamurai]

^^^ My cardiologist said that androgen's are known anti arrhythmic. Meaning they can knock your heart out of it's normal rhythm.

ok, check that one off too now......

 

[chewyxrage]

uh...mightymouse is alive dude lol.

i think it was smartstrongsexy or some shit. the dude with underdog as an avatar. i was talking about that with KB the other day

Hah, wow. lol - sorry mightymouse, I don't wish you dead.

I think it was the underdog avatar that got me thinking mightymouse. I meant strongsmartsexy.

 

[maldorf]

It's hard to imagine how a guy like Guardian, who OBVIOUSLY took meticulous care of himself, could have just been predetermined to kick the bucket. You know that guys diet was healthy as fuck and spot on.......no way you look like that while eating shit, I don't care how much you workout. There was some other factor that played into his death.......maybe it was genes, but that's fucked that you can take care of yourself that well and still not overcome a predisposition....

And as for roids, if your arteries are clear and your heart isn't enlarged, you pretty much can rule out the juice for having any detrimental effect to your heart right? Is there any other way that juice can affect your heart? I am only aware of cholesterol and enlargement issues.

Steroids can affect the clotting cascade, a group of enzymes that for one form fibrin. too much fibrin and your blood clots to easily. They will also raise your hematocrit to dangerous levels. All of these effects can cause your blood to clot which could lead to a stroke, pulmonary embolism, clot in a limb etc, and even a heart attack.
Last July I had a heart attack at the age of 38. A huge blood clot formed in my right coronary artery. It happened while I was squating. Just about died, and my life span now will be short. These hormones are very powerful and have a wide array of effects on your body, in ways you dont even know.

 

[maldorf]

If anyone wants to read more on what happend to me you can read up at this link. Just survived heart attack at age 38, follow up to Phil's post - Professional Muscle

 

[needtogetaas]

he passed from a clen overdose

 

[1500]

he passed from a clen overdose

sad, sad story there.

 

[Cardinal Slin]

the deal is, despite 10,000 young members telling you performance enhancing drugs have no side effects, they actually do!

Wake up call!

 

[UA_Iron]

Strongsmartsexy was a big guy. He passed pretty young. I think he had a family history of heart problems too.

Just like cigarettes, some people can smoke them for 50 years and seemingly be unphased. While others will develop all kinds of issues.

 

[needtogetaas]

the deal is, despite 10,000 young members telling you performance enhancing drugs have no side effects, they actually do!

Wake up call!

This is true.

 

[EnderJE]

the deal is, despite 10,000 young members telling you performance enhancing drugs have no side effects, they actually do!

Wake up call!

You've got a choice. Each choice has a consequence.

 

[ceo]

If anyone wants to read more on what happend to me you can read up at this link. Just survived heart attack at age 38, follow up to Phil's post - Professional Muscle

Thanks for sharing the link maldorf. I actually remember reading your post on promuscle a while ago, but haven't kept up on it (going to catch up now).

I think about this stuff more and more now that I have a kid (he's 8 months and I'm 36). I want to be around for him and my wife for a long time. I'm glad you're ok, and curious to see how your training is going now.

 

[Mr. dB]

he passed from a clen overdose

Who?

 

[binö]

steroids are harmless, you all are just a victim of propaganda!!!@#@

 

[maldorf]

steroids are harmless, you all are just a victim of propaganda!!!@#@

lol....

 

[maldorf]

Mike matarazzo audio interview-must hear

Thanks for sharing the link maldorf. I actually remember reading your post on promuscle a while ago, but haven't kept up on it (going to catch up now).

I think about this stuff more and more now that I have a kid (he's 8 months and I'm 36). I want to be around for him and my wife for a long time. I'm glad you're ok, and curious to see how your training is going now.

Training is going terrible, but I have not given it up completely. If you listen to the audio link by pro Mike Matarazzo, you will hear that he doesnt lift at all anymore. I probably will end up going that route eventually. When I lift I feel like im going to puke and get light headed ect when I push it too hard. Lifting real light weights in the range of 16-20 reps and not going to failure. Squats are the worst. I get by, lets just say that. Here is the link I posted with the audio interview of Mike Matarazzo about his heart attack. He has a pacemaker/defibrillator just like me. His ejection fraction is the same as mine.
audio interview with Mike Matarazzo - Professional Muscle

 

[javaguru]

Long term androgen use dose shorten lifespan. The science is pretty clear.

 

[doorhandle]

Its quite simple actually,

Why does androgen use shorten lifespan. It is the same process that high blood pressure increases stroke and heart attack.

It is the thickening of the muscle of the arteries! Most practicioners know that what causes these maladies is a direct result of thickening of the muscle that involves the arteries of the cardiovascular system.
High blood pressure is a sheer mechanical force against the inner linings of the arterial system. Steroids in and of themselves increase the blood pressure through the angiotensin renal system.

What the double effect of these though, is not only does it increase the pressure in the system which increases risk of stroke and heart attack by a minimum of 3-fold. Is that it also aggravates the muscle building effects of the tension in the system.

The arteries are muscular, increase that muscle. Then you increase the risk of bursting and/or rupture of small plaques that build in there. The plaque in arteries has the consistency of toothpaaste. Those can rupture especially with undue stress. The thickening of the artery muscle as well makes it more brittle and prone to these issues.

If one were to be genetically incline to a heart attack, even if they controlled for blood pressure. The risks of 'building areterial muscle" would make it a reason not to engage in an experiment.

The disease process is fairly clear as far as the thickening of arterial muscle and heart attacks as in hypertensive heart disease. The idea one could escape it by simply controlling blood pressure is not well stateed, In fact, the evidence points to the fact that the thickening of arterial walls is more suggestive of stroke and heart attack than blood preessure alone.
That most steroid users fail to control their blood pressure causes the disease process of atherosclerosis to accelerate, but regardless if they do. The evidence is that it would be fruitless. As they tend to develop coronary arterial disease at an accelerated rate regardless if they 'control' for the side effects usually regarded as risk factors.

All evidence points to, if statistically taken into analysis, that steroid use is a strong indicator of eartly cardiac mortality, morbidity and disease regardless if risk factors are controlled. Genetic links if someone has had a heart attack prior to age 55 in the family will exponentiate that risk.

It really depends on if the person has a reason to use steroids, be it that they have low self-esteem or if they have a family whom they love. People will make that decision. But it is pretty clear that anabolic steroid will affect the anatomy of the arteriovascular system. More muscle in the artery system is directly correlated, directly correlate AGAIN with more stroke and heart attack..

Taking a muscle building agent, will decrease your life as an epidemiological study can prove

 

[guest username]

I knew you would feel me on this. Damn chest pains I always dismiss because I am always being told it is anxiety. Watch one day I will be having a heart attack and I will be saying to myself "it's just anxiety". lol

Most of these people do not have chest pain. The only symptom they usually get is shortness of breath, primarily with exertion. They sometimes have palpitations. With cardiomegaly or IHSS (idiopathic hypertrophic subaortic stenosis), usually the first sign of illness is a sudden cardiac arrest where the person goes into ventricular tachycardia.

 

[guest username]

^^^ My cardiologist said that androgen's are known anti arrhythmic. Meaning they can knock your heart out of it's normal rhythm.

That would be pro-arrhythmic if they cause arrhythmias.

 

[chris302001]

That would be pro-arrhythmic if they cause arrhythmias.

what do u think of IM/EM combined residency? Just a quick yay or nay?

 

[doorhandle]

Most of these people do not have chest pain. The only symptom they usually get is shortness of breath, primarily with exertion. They sometimes have palpitations. With cardiomegaly or IHSS (idiopathic hypertrophic subaortic stenosis), usually the first sign of illness is a sudden cardiac arrest where the person goes into ventricular tachycardia.

What? The primary reason that people go to the ER is chest pain. SOB with exertion is the primary cause in women, the primary cause in men is angina. The greek work for strangulation. Women feel heart attacks differently than men. But c'mon, the instance of IHSS is so very rare in comparison to coronary artery disease, why bring it up?

IHSS and vtac is a screening test in athletes that one can hardly justify the cost! Now, sudden cardiac arrest, we would be looking more towards long-QT syndrome more than a bulging ventricular septum. The idea of chest pain being from angina due to high blood pressure due left ventricular hypertrophy which is caused by lack of blood flow through a thickened myocardium (i.e the inner wall of the heart gets starved of oxygen due to the distance blood has to travel as the myocardium-muscle squeezes, causing chest pain) again rare.

The reason why people go to the ER, is first gerd, second, chest wall pain. 3rd, heart disease.

IHSS is down the list to probably to nil, never, ever

Out of several thousand patients I can tell you how many have had IHSS, beyond a sigmoidal septal defect that affects many elderly. It is so rare, that I can count on my left hand.

Ridiculous

 

[guest username]

What? The primary reason that people go to the ER is chest pain. SOB with exertion is the primary cause in women, the primary cause in men is angina. The greek work for strangulation. Women feel heart attacks differently than men. But c'mon, the instance of IHSS is so very rare in comparison to coronary artery disease, why bring it up?

IHSS and vtac is a screening test in athletes that one can hardly justify the cost! Now, sudden cardiac arrest, we would be looking more towards long-QT syndrome more than a bulging ventricular septum. The idea of chest pain being from angina due to high blood pressure due left ventricular hypertrophy which is caused by lack of blood flow through a thickened myocardium (i.e the inner wall of the heart gets starved of oxygen due to the distance blood has to travel as the myocardium-muscle squeezes, causing chest pain) again rare.

The reason why people go to the ER, is first gerd, second, chest wall pain. 3rd, heart disease.

IHSS is down the list to probably to nil, never, ever

Out of several thousand patients I can tell you how many have had IHSS, beyond a sigmoidal septal defect that affects many elderly. It is so rare, that I can count on my left hand.

Ridiculous

Nowhere in my post did I mention the primary reasons why people present to the ER. What I mentioned was the primary symptoms associated with IHSS and cardiomyopathy.

Nonetheless, I really appreciate you educating me -- an emergency physician -- on the reasons people present to the ER. I find it informative and thought provoking.

 

[guest username]

what do u think of IM/EM combined residency? Just a quick yay or nay?

Wouldn't do it. You should pick one specialty and stick with it. It would be difficult to practice both. Although the educational value of additional training would be good, you will likely never put it to use by practicing both specialties.

 

[-SD-]

statdoc is really smarty and shit stuff

 

[maldorf]

Its quite simple actually,

Why does androgen use shorten lifespan. It is the same process that high blood pressure increases stroke and heart attack.

It is the thickening of the muscle of the arteries! Most practicioners know that what causes these maladies is a direct result of thickening of the muscle that involves the arteries of the cardiovascular system.
High blood pressure is a sheer mechanical force against the inner linings of the arterial system. Steroids in and of themselves increase the blood pressure through the angiotensin renal system.

What the double effect of these though, is not only does it increase the pressure in the system which increases risk of stroke and heart attack by a minimum of 3-fold. Is that it also aggravates the muscle building effects of the tension in the system.

The arteries are muscular, increase that muscle. Then you increase the risk of bursting and/or rupture of small plaques that build in there. The plaque in arteries has the consistency of toothpaaste. Those can rupture especially with undue stress. The thickening of the artery muscle as well makes it more brittle and prone to these issues.

If one were to be genetically incline to a heart attack, even if they controlled for blood pressure. The risks of 'building areterial muscle" would make it a reason not to engage in an experiment.

The disease process is fairly clear as far as the thickening of arterial muscle and heart attacks as in hypertensive heart disease. The idea one could escape it by simply controlling blood pressure is not well stateed, In fact, the evidence points to the fact that the thickening of arterial walls is more suggestive of stroke and heart attack than blood preessure alone.
That most steroid users fail to control their blood pressure causes the disease process of atherosclerosis to accelerate, but regardless if they do. The evidence is that it would be fruitless. As they tend to develop coronary arterial disease at an accelerated rate regardless if they 'control' for the side effects usually regarded as risk factors.

All evidence points to, if statistically taken into analysis, that steroid use is a strong indicator of eartly cardiac mortality, morbidity and disease regardless if risk factors are controlled. Genetic links if someone has had a heart attack prior to age 55 in the family will exponentiate that risk.

It really depends on if the person has a reason to use steroids, be it that they have low self-esteem or if they have a family whom they love. People will make that decision. But it is pretty clear that anabolic steroid will affect the anatomy of the arteriovascular system. More muscle in the artery system is directly correlated, directly correlate AGAIN with more stroke and heart attack..

Taking a muscle building agent, will decrease your life as an epidemiological study can prove

One thing I cant figure is why I got that blood clot in my right coronary artery. When they did the angiogram they found that my arteries were wide open, no narrowing with plaque etc. In fact, once they had sucked that clot out of my artery he wanted to put a stent in but they didnt have one big enough to fit! He said my arteries were huge and they did not have a stent that big. So it doesnt sound like i had a plaque that ruptered. Most of the cardiologists I saw told me thats what happened. WOUldnt the artery be narrowed down?

 

[maldorf]

Most of these people do not have chest pain. The only symptom they usually get is shortness of breath, primarily with exertion. They sometimes have palpitations. With cardiomegaly or IHSS (idiopathic hypertrophic subaortic stenosis), usually the first sign of illness is a sudden cardiac arrest where the person goes into ventricular tachycardia.

Thats how it happend with me. I felt fine, and then the next minute after I finished my set of squats I felt really sick to my stomach and dizzy. I sat down and broke out in a cold sweat. Never once though did I get a chest pain. After I got home from the gym I did get the feeling of having heartburn. Just like it was acid reflux or something. I took 2 aspirin and some antacid. After a bit I knew it was time to hit the ER. I should have gone right from the gym, but instead i drove the car home while I was having a heart attack. So for me at least I did not have any chest pain at all. It was a referred pain that felt like it was coming from my esophagus. Perhaps it has something to do with the cranial neves that run down there? Vagus nerve or something??

 

[wynem]

I'm personally through with steroids........especially the one's that may elevate cholesterol. The only thing I might "consider" doing in the future is plain Test........that's it...........nothing else ever ever ever again.

Now i wonder what brings you to the conclusion that steroids are the problem here?

Without scientific proof we have no way of knowing it was the steriods.

Once again steriods are blamed without proof.

 

[maldorf]

BTW, I did not post this in this forum. I posted it in anabolic steroids but it was moved. Wondering how many actually look in this forum.

 

[maldorf]

Now i wonder what brings you to the conclusion that steroids are the problem here?

Without scientific proof we have no way of knowing it was the steriods.

Once again steriods are blamed without proof.

Cant ever say that if you use steriods that this will happen to you, but it puts you at risk. there is enough evidence out there to say so and sound science behind it. You can choose to ignore it, thats your choice. Its your life. YOu have to determine what your priorities are, and decide if this risk is worth it. The cardiologist I see now is renown allover this country and has seen many young AAS using professional athletes with heart problems. I was surprised too. It is starting to show up now more than ever. Ask Mike Matarazzo if he thinks steriods contributed to his heart attack. Did you listen to his interview I posted on this thread?

 

[guest username]

Thats how it happend with me. I felt fine, and then the next minute after I finished my set of squats I felt really sick to my stomach and dizzy. I sat down and broke out in a cold sweat. Never once though did I get a chest pain. After I got home from the gym I did get the feeling of having heartburn. Just like it was acid reflux or something. I took 2 aspirin and some antacid. After a bit I knew it was time to hit the ER. I should have gone right from the gym, but instead i drove the car home while I was having a heart attack. So for me at least I did not have any chest pain at all. It was a referred pain that felt like it was coming from my esophagus. Perhaps it has something to do with the cranial neves that run down there? Vagus nerve or something??

Most people who die of cardiovascular events at young ages (<35) don't have traditional MI's (heart attacks) where an artery becomes blocked, but instead have arrhythmias from hypertrophic disease (IHSS, cardiomyopathy, etc.) or right ventricular dysplasia. Some also have primary abnormalities in their conduction system, such as prolonged QT syndrome. These people usually don't experience chest pain and don't have typical heart attacks. Often their condition causes sudden death without warning.

The youngest person I've seen was a 14 year old who had an acute MI. The pediatric ER doc said he was glad that they hadn't opened yet because he wouldn't have even done an EKG on him.

All patients who present with chest pain, shortness of breath, syncope (passing out), palpitations, or weakness get an EKG. Depending on risk factors, I will also order a troponin. The younger you are, the more convincing of a story is required to get enzymes. MI's do happen at a young age, but you can't chase every chest pain patient as an MI just to catch the 1:5,000 <35 year old who is having an NSTEMI (a heart attack without classical EKG findings). This is adjusted by other EKG findings like T-wave inversions, ST depression, etc.

 

[maldorf]

Most people who die of cardiovascular events at young ages (<35) don't have MI's (heart attacks), but instead have arrhythmias from hypertrophic disease (IHSS, cardiomyopathy, etc.). These people usually don't experience chest pain and don't have typical heart attacks where an artery becomes blocked.

The youngest person I've seen was a 14 year old who had an acute MI. The pediatric ER doc said he was glad that they hadn't opened yet because he wouldn't have even done an EKG on him.

All patients who present with chest pain, shortness of breath, syncope (passing out), palpitations, or weakness get an EKG. Depending on risk factors, I will also order a troponin. The younger you are, the more convincing of a story is required to get enzymes. MI's do happen at a young age, but you can't chase every chest pain patient as an MI just to catch the 1:5,000 <35 year old who is having an NSTEMI (a heart attack without classical EKG findings). This is adjusted by other EKG findings like T-wave inversions, ST depression, etc.

Yeah, the ekg usually shows. Mine did. I had the classic st depression I know, and maybe the t wave inversion too. Remember watching it on the screen. I took an ekg class in grad school a long time ago so know a bit about that.
What do you think caused my clot? Considering my atereries were all wide open, including the one that was blocked with the clot. They were able to suck it out in the cath lab and now its totally clear. I had them show me the clot. No stent big enough that would fit the artery.

 

[doorhandle]

One thing I cant figure is why I got that blood clot in my right coronary artery. When they did the angiogram they found that my arteries were wide open, no narrowing with plaque etc. In fact, once they had sucked that clot out of my artery he wanted to put a stent in but they didnt have one big enough to fit! He said my arteries were huge and they did not have a stent that big. So it doesnt sound like i had a plaque that ruptered. Most of the cardiologists I saw told me thats what happened. WOUldnt the artery be narrowed down?

The answer is no, most heart attacks occur from a plaque that is less than 50% in size. Meaning, you can pass a stress test with ease and still go out and have a heart attack.

A plaque of just 5 or 10%, virtually no narrowing can still rupture and cause a heart attack. The plaque can become unstable and it is a very dynamic process, it happens all the time, in fact, Swatdoc is probably rupturing one right now.
The unfortunate fact is that yours led to a heart attack but it does happen on a not too frequent basis.
The plaque isnt the hardiest of entities. It has the consistency of toothpaste with a friable cap over the top. The theory being that blood pressure surges can rip open or rip the skin on that toothpaste blister in your artery, in laymen's terms. That is probably done by the sheer force of blood pressure during the squats you did.

That little teeny plaque you had, then spilled its chemical messengers into the bloodstream and the body reacted thinking you had a cut on your finger and sent clotting factors and such. It formed a clot in the RCA.

Since plaque rupture is dynamic, that it is why it is suggested that people take a baby aspirin to make blood cells "slippery" when this happening to lessen or prevent a major myocardial infarction.

Your query does make sense as to "if they arent narrowed, why did this happen", the answer is that, most heart attacks occur with small blockages, not large b/c of plaque rupture.

When arteries are mostly narrowed they produce symptoms. Symptoms are then relieved by stents or bypass. Stents on an elective basis do not prolong life, they relieve symptoms unless done so to have other surgeries where cardiac function has to have a reserve.
Bypass does prolong life according to studies, but stents do not. But this is a whole 'nother discussion.

The fact that you had large arteries and still had a plaque rupture, and after heavy exertion, makes you more of a textbook plaque rupture than anything.
The plaque rupture, body thought you cut your finger, doesnt know the difference and clotted it off. Unfortunately it clotted off the whole artery like a traffic jam. The muscle down stream got starved for oxygen. Since all the nerves in the thoracic cavity are jumbled. You felt referred pain and everyone feels it different depending on their anatomy.

Hope that helps answer your question

 

[maldorf]

The answer is no, most heart attacks occur from a plaque that is less than 50% in size. Meaning, you can pass a stress test with ease and still go out and have a heart attack.

A plaque of just 5 or 10%, virtually no narrowing can still rupture and cause a heart attack. The plaque can become unstable and it is a very dynamic process, it happens all the time, in fact, Swatdoc is probably rupturing one right now.
The unfortunate fact is that yours led to a heart attack but it does happen on a not too frequent basis.
The plaque isnt the hardiest of entities. It has the consistency of toothpaste with a friable cap over the top. The theory being that blood pressure surges can rip open or rip the skin on that toothpaste blister in your artery, in laymen's terms. That is probably done by the sheer force of blood pressure during the squats you did.

That little teeny plaque you had, then spilled its chemical messengers into the bloodstream and the body reacted thinking you had a cut on your finger and sent clotting factors and such. It formed a clot in the RCA.

Since plaque rupture is dynamic, that it is why it is suggested that people take a baby aspirin to make blood cells "slippery" when this happening to lessen or prevent a major myocardial infarction.

Your query does make sense as to "if they arent narrowed, why did this happen", the answer is that, most heart attacks occur with small blockages, not large b/c of plaque rupture.

When arteries are mostly narrowed they produce symptoms. Symptoms are then relieved by stents or bypass. Stents on an elective basis do not prolong life, they relieve symptoms unless done so to have other surgeries where cardiac function has to have a reserve.
Bypass does prolong life according to studies, but stents do not. But this is a whole 'nother discussion.

The fact that you had large arteries and still had a plaque rupture, and after heavy exertion, makes you more of a textbook plaque rupture than anything.
The plaque rupture, body thought you cut your finger, doesnt know the difference and clotted it off. Unfortunately it clotted off the whole artery like a traffic jam. The muscle down stream got starved for oxygen. Since all the nerves in the thoracic cavity are jumbled. You felt referred pain and everyone feels it different depending on their anatomy.

Hope that helps answer your question

thanks. you confirmed all of my hypotheses and presented it in an organized manner! I really did think that it was more than just a coincidence that my heart attack happened during squats. That 455 lbs on my back surely raised the intrathoracic pressure to a high point. I know ive suffered plenty of nose bleeds while squating before in the past. Hell, I even burst zits on my head from the BP getting too high. Those days are long gone for me now. No more heavy squats. Hell, I probably shouldnt even be lifting weights at all now, especially squats.
Sucks too, I was taking an adult aspirin a day too while on aas to combat this sort of thing. It did nothing to help me. My hematocrit was always too high too while on.

 

[doorhandle]

thanks. you confirmed all of my hypotheses and presented it in an organized manner! I really did think that it was more than just a coincidence that my heart attack happened during squats. That 455 lbs on my back surely raised the intrathoracic pressure to a high point. I know ive suffered plenty of nose bleeds while squating before in the past. Hell, I even burst zits on my head from the BP getting too high. Those days are long gone for me now. No more heavy squats. Hell, I probably shouldnt even be lifting weights at all now, especially squats.
Sucks too, I was taking an adult aspirin a day too while on aas to combat this sort of thing. It did nothing to help me. My hematocrit was always too high too while on.

big legs arent worth dying for.

Its sweating to the oldies for you from now on

 

[gjohnson5]

If anyone wants to read more on what happend to me you can read up at this link. Just survived heart attack at age 38, follow up to Phil's post - Professional Muscle

I was trying to figure out why this thread got bumped
So now , I'm wondering who needto is referring to with "He died of a clen overdose"

 

[ceo]

thanks. you confirmed all of my hypotheses and presented it in an organized manner! I really did think that it was more than just a coincidence that my heart attack happened during squats. That 455 lbs on my back surely raised the intrathoracic pressure to a high point. I know ive suffered plenty of nose bleeds while squating before in the past. Hell, I even burst zits on my head from the BP getting too high. Those days are long gone for me now. No more heavy squats. Hell, I probably shouldnt even be lifting weights at all now, especially squats.
Sucks too, I was taking an adult aspirin a day too while on aas to combat this sort of thing. It did nothing to help me. My hematocrit was always too high too while on.

Putting 455 lbs. on your back and squatting isn't nearly as important as putting your girls on your back for a piggy back ride (one at a tiem of course). I know you know this full well bro, but a lot of guys reading this may take it for granted. It's easy to lose sight of things like that in this very self-centered sport of bodybuilding. No one cares how much you lift or how big you are...except you (a generalized "you" - I'm not pointing directly to anyone).

I just got all caught up on your thread at PM. Sorry to hear about the stem cell study being cancelled. Hope something else comes up soon.

I think everyone should read that thread maldorf linked to. There's some stories over there that will make you think about your own mortality.

Maldorf, glad you're here and sharing with us. I hope people will take something from this and get bloodwork, EKG, heart scan, etc. done...especially if they've been using AAS and/or have family history.

 

[maldorf]

Putting 455 lbs. on your back and squatting isn't nearly as important as putting your girls on your back for a piggy back ride (one at a tiem of course). I know you know this full well bro, but a lot of guys reading this may take it for granted. It's easy to lose sight of things like that in this very self-centered sport of bodybuilding. No one cares how much you lift or how big you are...except you (a generalized "you" - I'm not pointing directly to anyone).

I just got all caught up on your thread at PM. Sorry to hear about the stem cell study being cancelled. Hope something else comes up soon.

I think everyone should read that thread maldorf linked to. There's some stories over there that will make you think about your own mortality.

Maldorf, glad you're here and sharing with us. I hope people will take something from this and get bloodwork, EKG, heart scan, etc. done...especially if they've been using AAS and/or have family history.

It wasnt really unitl I had this heart attack that I realized how dangerous what I was doing was, and how selfish I had become. Youre right, nobody cares how big and muscular we are excpet for outselves. It was the pressure I put on myself daily that caused me to go to the extremes I did. My wife actually thinks I look better now than I did before. Most ladies really dont like really big muscular guys.

I am glad people from other boards have read my that post over at professional muscle. I used to frequent here a lot, I got my start online here infact. Thought I would pop over so that some here could be enlightened. Seem to be a lot of young guys here just getting started and thinking about using AAS. My hope is to educate people that there really are risks out there associated with the use of AAS, and that its not all just overblown scare tactics. Things really can go wrong, and people can become very ill or die.
I do believe that genetics play a big part in this too. The thing is, you really cant know for sure how your genetics will interact with the use of AAS. Its all an experiment we play. Overall, I would say the best advice for those that want to use is to be extremely conservative and be regularly monitored by a doc.
I was always monitored by a doc, but was certainly not conservative in what I did. YOU KNOW YOURE IN TROUBLE WHEN YOU FIND YOURSELF CONSTANTLY HAVING TO USE HIGHER DOSES, MORE COMPOUNDS, AND LONGER CYCLES TO ACHIEVE WHAT YOU DESIRE. At some point you have to draw the line and realize that your genetics are the limit and youve reached as far as you can go. Perhaps its even your method of diet or training that is holding you back. Way too many guys always think the problem is not enough AAS.
If I could go back and do it all over again I would not have used at all. I personally now believe that for me at least the only reason to use aas is for HRT. Since I wrecked myself and my natural test never recovered, I am now going on doctor supervised testosterone replacement therapy for the rest of my life. 100 mg/wk to start and go from there. That should be enough to get me into a natural range.

 

[binö]

hey dorf i just hooked the plat up for you for being a good bro
enjoy

 

[gjohnson5]

well Now that I know who Needto was referring to , my only comment is More does not equal (!= or <>) better
Infact more could = fatal in some cases.

 

[ceo]

Perhaps its even your method of diet or training that is holding you back. Way too many guys always think the problem is not enough AAS.

So true! If more guys would do everything they could with their diet first, then training before using AAS, most would find they could go much further naturally than they thought. I see so many guys say they've "totally got their diet and training down" and they've stopped making gains (after 18 months total of training), so it must be they need AAS.

Ask these 6' tall 170 lbs. monsters about their diet and they're barely managing to get 150-200 grams of protein a day. They think they're taking in 4000-5000 cals/day...turns out it's more like 3000. But, they've mastered their diet and there's nothing more that can be done. (lol)

People are all too quick to jump on AAS before eating more and more food (protein esp.) and constantly evaluating their training in conjunction with their eating. Of course you can't tell them a fucking thing because they know it all already.

Sorry...got carried away. I'll stop now. lol.

 

[redsamurai]

that food they eat is probably what's more responsible for health problems down the road than AAS, although it does exacerbate things. It's very hard to eat 300-400 grams of protein a day without eating too much of the animal proteins which are great short term for building muscle, but they build up in your system.....blood stream, colon..etc.

I'm wondering lately if eating more plant proteins is not only healthier but may in fact be superior......the problem is just getting enough of em. The proteins may be more complete, but less available.....I dunno. What I've read lately about what they're discovering about the nutrients in high density plants makes me wonder. Chlorophyll is of particular interest......it's virtually identical to human blood except it's centered around magnesium I beleive, where human blood is based off iron.

Or maybe you should keep eating meat but just fast more often so you negate any buildup...... I dunno, but what we've been fed by the bb'ing and supplement industry on dietary needs is bullshit.

So true! If more guys would do everything they could with their diet first, then training before using AAS, most would find they could go much further naturally than they thought. I see so many guys say they've "totally got their diet and training down" and they've stopped making gains (after 18 months total of training), so it must be they need AAS.

Ask these 6' tall 170 lbs. monsters about their diet and they're barely managing to get 150-200 grams of protein a day. They think they're taking in 4000-5000 cals/day...turns out it's more like 3000. But, they've mastered their diet and there's nothing more that can be done. (lol)

People are all too quick to jump on AAS before eating more and more food (protein esp.) and constantly evaluating their training in conjunction with their eating. Of course you can't tell them a fucking thing because they know it all already.

Sorry...got carried away. I'll stop now. lol.

 

[maldorf]

So true! If more guys would do everything they could with their diet first, then training before using AAS, most would find they could go much further naturally than they thought. I see so many guys say they've "totally got their diet and training down" and they've stopped making gains (after 18 months total of training), so it must be they need AAS.

Ask these 6' tall 170 lbs. monsters about their diet and they're barely managing to get 150-200 grams of protein a day. They think they're taking in 4000-5000 cals/day...turns out it's more like 3000. But, they've mastered their diet and there's nothing more that can be done. (lol)

People are all too quick to jump on AAS before eating more and more food (protein esp.) and constantly evaluating their training in conjunction with their eating. Of course you can't tell them a fucking thing because they know it all already.

Sorry...got carried away. I'll stop now. lol.

I wasnt one of those kids either, and things still ended this way for me. I lifted naturally from the age of 15 to 29, so about 14 yrs. I had pretty much maxed out my potential I believe. By using aas I was able to build more muscle and strength, but found myself every year getting more and more radical with its usage. You keep hitting plateaus and thats when you resort to using more and more. I used for about 10 yrs off and on.
My diet was pretty decent really, but I ate a whole lot of meat. Mostly chicken and tuna. I would eat red meat about 2 meals per week only. I ate lots of veggies and the past year I also took in plenty of fruits.
One thing that I ignored was my low HDL. My LDL was always low, but the HDL was too. My hematocrit was high a lot too, so high that they wouldnt even take my blood at the blood bank. Looking back I should have seen the signs and stop using completely.

 

[redsamurai]

what did your heaviest cycle look like?

I wasnt one of those kids either, and things still ended this way for me. I lifted naturally from the age of 15 to 29, so about 14 yrs. I had pretty much maxed out my potential I believe. By using aas I was able to build more muscle and strength, but found myself every year getting more and more radical with its usage. You keep hitting plateaus and thats when you resort to using more and more. I used for about 10 yrs off and on.
My diet was pretty decent really, but I ate a whole lot of meat. Mostly chicken and tuna. I would eat red meat about 2 meals per week only. I ate lots of veggies and the past year I also took in plenty of fruits.
One thing that I ignored was my low HDL. My LDL was always low, but the HDL was too. My hematocrit was high a lot too, so high that they wouldnt even take my blood at the blood bank. Looking back I should have seen the signs and stop using completely.

 

[ceo]

that food they eat is probably what's more responsible for health problems down the road than AAS, although it does exacerbate things. It's very hard to eat 300-400 grams of protein a day without eating too much of the animal proteins which are great short term for building muscle, but they build up in your system.....blood stream, colon..etc.

I'm wondering lately if eating more plant proteins is not only healthier but may in fact be superior......the problem is just getting enough of em. The proteins may be more complete, but less available.....I dunno. What I've read lately about what they're discovering about the nutrients in high density plants makes me wonder. Chlorophyll is of particular interest......it's virtually identical to human blood except it's centered around magnesium I beleive, where human blood is based off iron.

Or maybe you should keep eating meat but just fast more often so you negate any buildup...... I dunno, but what we've been fed by the bb'ing and supplement industry on dietary needs is bullshit.

plant proteins are a poor choice for building muscle. Of course along with a high protein diet, one should be taking digestive aids and enzymes, such as bromelain, and probiotics. Plenty of fiber from veggies and a supplement (metamucil, etc.) should also be added on high protein diets. You can vary your types of proteins as well. Fish being easier to digest than chicken, chicken easier than beef, avoiding dairy for the more health conscience, and on and on.

There are very healthy ways to do this lifestyle...people are just mostly ignorant, because hey, as long as I look good on the outside, that's all that really counts!

 

[redsamurai]

plant proteins !

why? I've read that some of the proteins in vegetation like kale and wheatgrass may actually be superior as they are a more complete amino acid chain. This could be wrong, I'm just relating something I've read.

 

[maldorf]

what did your heaviest cycle look like?

Average traditional cycle really wasnt too much different than many on here. I did experiment in the last 2 years with "blast cylces" where I would run 2x the normal level but it only lasts 4-6 weeks then youre off for 4-6.

 

[gjohnson5]

that food they eat is probably what's more responsible for health problems down the road than AAS, although it does exacerbate things. It's very hard to eat 300-400 grams of protein a day without eating too much of the animal proteins which are great short term for building muscle, but they build up in your system.....blood stream, colon..etc.

I'm wondering lately if eating more plant proteins is not only healthier but may in fact be superior......the problem is just getting enough of em. The proteins may be more complete, but less available.....I dunno. What I've read lately about what they're discovering about the nutrients in high density plants makes me wonder. Chlorophyll is of particular interest......it's virtually identical to human blood except it's centered around magnesium I beleive, where human blood is based off iron.

Or maybe you should keep eating meat but just fast more often so you negate any buildup...... I dunno, but what we've been fed by the bb'ing and supplement industry on dietary needs is bullshit.

Several issues
1. Most of the "hype" surrounding saturated fats IMHO is myth especially in the cases of coconut and cacao. Those saturated fat will boost metabolism and reduce cholesterol if anything. Most of the fat issues should be centered around processed fats such as hydrogenated and trans fats.

2. The PDCAAS of vegetable proteins makes them inferior to egg , milk, chicken or even red meats. IMHO a balanced diet is still the best way to go

3. I agree that supplement companies are in it for the money. But the pharmaceutical companies are in it for sales as well. The FDA approving harmful drugs makes things worse. I would rather take OTC supplements to reduce my cholesterol then statins anyday. The supplements are less harmful

 

[redsamurai]

Several issues

2. The PDCAAS of vegetable proteins makes them inferior to egg , milk, chicken or even red meats. IMHO a balanced diet is still the best way to go

what are pdcaas?

 

[gjohnson5]

what are pdcaas?

Protein Digestible Corrected Amino Acid Score.

It used to be called the biological Value. But it is a measure of the bioavilability and digestibility of proteins. Egg is the most biologically available and useable protein to the human body. Milk is second

 

[guest username]

Most of the "hype" surrounding saturated fats IMHO is myth especially in the cases of coconut and cacao. Those saturated fat will boost metabolism and reduce cholesterol if anything. Most of the fat issues should be centered around processed fats such as hydrogenated and trans fats.

Someone might argue that your assertion is also myth. Not arguing, just saying.

3. I agree that supplement companies are in it for the money. But the pharmaceutical companies are in it for sales as well. The FDA approving harmful drugs makes things worse. I would rather take OTC supplements to reduce my cholesterol then statins anyday. The supplements are less harmful

The problem with supplements is that they haven't really been studied well enough to support them having less side effects and showing that they actually work. Supplements might be less harmful probably because they don't work as well. Unfortunately, we won't see supplements being studied unless the government funds the studies. There isn't enough money in sales for supplement companies or drug companies to fund the research. Most of the research on supplements comes from overseas, particularly Germany.

Don't get me wrong... many supplements do work, and many of our pharmaceutical medicines are based on natural compounds that were once used as supplements. (Statins are based on yeast extract, Co-Artem is based on artemesin, etc.)

 

[gjohnson5]

Someone might argue that your assertion is also myth. Not arguing, just saying.

Yez , avoidz teh saturated fatz

I'll address the saturated fat issue later...

The problem with supplements is that they haven't really been studied well enough to support them having less side effects and showing that they actually work.

And this is opposed to the studies being paid for by pharmaceutical companies who are intentionally withholding information that would show the harm many of these drugs can do?

But your point about studies is interesting. So you've looked at the clinical data on normal calorie diets w/elevated fat content and still believe saturated fats are bad??? Based on what I've read obesity is mainly based on calories. But if you have some data that suggests a 2000 calorie diet with elevated saturated fats causes obesity , I'd like to read it. I don't believe any real evidence to that effect exists.

Anyway Pharma companies pay for studies to get results favorable to their drugs. This means there is a bais for sales. The health of the individual is not the issue in those cases.