Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below I use to do GHB a lot. I decided to quote when I a had one to many "crazy experiments" w/it. Now my friends that I use to do it with cannot quite. Some of them get the tremors, shakes and shit. One of my friends has to take a cap every 1 hour or close to 30 caps a day. He tried to go off it but almost lost his life because your body becomes chemically addicted to it. Detox for this drug is new and very very difficult. You go crazy and see shit like if you were lsd. I am glad I stopped because now I am looking at my friends and realizing I was almost there....
Addicted to GHB
- Thread starter Machiavellian Muscle
- Start date
Mackavelli said:
BULLSHITT!!!!!
GHB breaks down into Wtaer(H20) and CO2(carbon dioxide)
in your body. In fact , after 3-4 hours its gone completely
from your system and is UNDETECTABLE after 24 hours.
It also has NO METABOLITES to speak of.
Your friend IS NOT physiologically addicted,he is
PSYCHOLOGICALLY addicted. MASSIVE
difference.
He's got to go see a therapist. The problem is him NOT
the GHB.
In case you're wondering I've been using GHB for 4 straight
years w/ NO PROBLEMS AT ALL, so I can
speak from experience.
Godspeed
nandroloner
New member
I took too much 1,4 not long ago and woke up at 4am going NUTS! My girlfriend wanted to call an ambulance but I wouldn't let her. All I could do was thrash around going "Oh shit, oh fuck...." for about 30 minutes, then I passed out. It wasn't a puking kind of sick, I just felt like I was losing my mind. It was a really horrible feeling that I don't want to ever feel again. The next day, I threw the rest of it away.
pgerardone
New member
Re: Re: Addicted to GHB
Fonz, this is not bullshit. You are just another one addicted to ghb and trying to justify it. But It gets me pissed that you put this shit out on here so people can read this garbage and go out and get addicted themselves. I know for a fact that ghb is addictive and that it is physically addictive. I have read reports that the detox from ghb is worse then heroin and can cause a massive long term depression. If you want to fuck your life up with this garbage and justify it to yourself fine. But don't try to convince everyone that ghb is a safe substance. The fact that you have been on it for 4 years speaks to your ignorance and to the fact that you have a seroius problem with addiction. Do what you want want with your life but to advise others that ghb is ok to use is irresponsible.Fonz said:
GHB has got to be one of the most controversial drugs/supplements there is. GHB is not "as safe as water", nor is are withdrawls worse than heroin. GHB is a carbohydrate that is found naturally in food and the human body. It is completely metabolized into water and carbon dioxide and it is non toxic.
If you abuse it you are going to run into withdrawl problems simply because you feel different than when you were on G and it takes time to get used to feeling "normal" again. It is not however physically addictive.
GHB is a prescrition anti depressant and sleep aid in Europe and there are numerous studies that document its safety and effectiveness.
If you want to take GHB follow a few simple rules and you should be alright.
1.Get it from a reliable source so you know the potency.
2. Only use it at night as to not become "addicted."
3. Dont mix it with drugs or alcohol.
4. Dont drive on it.
5. Keep it to yourself. Giving it to others, especially girls, is asking for a shitload of trouble.
Hope this helps.
If you abuse it you are going to run into withdrawl problems simply because you feel different than when you were on G and it takes time to get used to feeling "normal" again. It is not however physically addictive.
GHB is a prescrition anti depressant and sleep aid in Europe and there are numerous studies that document its safety and effectiveness.
If you want to take GHB follow a few simple rules and you should be alright.
1.Get it from a reliable source so you know the potency.
2. Only use it at night as to not become "addicted."
3. Dont mix it with drugs or alcohol.
4. Dont drive on it.
5. Keep it to yourself. Giving it to others, especially girls, is asking for a shitload of trouble.
Hope this helps.
HumanShell
New member
GHB is addicting and has serious side effects in some people, but that is not the majority.
The following is purely ficticious.....
One of my friends turned me onto GHB in 1994. While I was able to control consumption, only using it when going to a party, out to the movies with my girl etc... He fell victim to it, and started using it every day, throught the whole day. He did this for nearly two years. One night, without talking to me, he decided he was going to quit cold turkey. He couldn't go to sleep. He started hallucinating, seeing vampires flying around his room. He said there was a small chinese boy hiding under his bed with a butcher knife. He decided he couldn't quit cold turkey, and went to take a cap of it. When he opened the bottle, he said millions of colored balls started pouring out of it into the air, filling the room. At this time, he left his room, and noticed Vampires and werewolves all up in his house, and some of the Vampires were raping his mom on their pool table. He ran downstairs to his dads room (his parents sleep in different rooms because his dad snores.) yelling that "Vampires are upstairs raping mom". He was completely out of his mind. His dad showed him that his mom was sleeping in the bed, but he didn't believe. He kept insisting that she was upstairs being raped. His dad said his hearbeat was flying. He got my friend to get into the car, and drove straight to the emergency room. They had to put him in intensive care for 7 days. Kept all of these machines hooked up to him. They had to strap him down to the bed. He thought that an indian had tied him up, and was cutting off his dick. (this is when they were inserting the catheter). Luckily, after another week in the hospital, he was fine.
I, myself, have gone in spells using GHB. I have used it throught the day for weeks at a time before, the longest being 2 months, and have stopped cold turkey with no adverse effects. The only "addiction" that I ever notice when stopping is the first night. It's hard to get to sleep the first night you stop using it, since you're used to passing out. After that first night though, it's like I was never using it.
Now I mainly use it as an alcohol replacement, and occasionally I'll use it during the day. If I'm depressed, I'll use it to help me. I'm a very shy person too. So if I'm going to be around a lot of new people I don't know, I find it often helps for me to have had a couple grams. It lets me open up a lot easier.
The following is purely ficticious.....
One of my friends turned me onto GHB in 1994. While I was able to control consumption, only using it when going to a party, out to the movies with my girl etc... He fell victim to it, and started using it every day, throught the whole day. He did this for nearly two years. One night, without talking to me, he decided he was going to quit cold turkey. He couldn't go to sleep. He started hallucinating, seeing vampires flying around his room. He said there was a small chinese boy hiding under his bed with a butcher knife. He decided he couldn't quit cold turkey, and went to take a cap of it. When he opened the bottle, he said millions of colored balls started pouring out of it into the air, filling the room. At this time, he left his room, and noticed Vampires and werewolves all up in his house, and some of the Vampires were raping his mom on their pool table. He ran downstairs to his dads room (his parents sleep in different rooms because his dad snores.) yelling that "Vampires are upstairs raping mom". He was completely out of his mind. His dad showed him that his mom was sleeping in the bed, but he didn't believe. He kept insisting that she was upstairs being raped. His dad said his hearbeat was flying. He got my friend to get into the car, and drove straight to the emergency room. They had to put him in intensive care for 7 days. Kept all of these machines hooked up to him. They had to strap him down to the bed. He thought that an indian had tied him up, and was cutting off his dick. (this is when they were inserting the catheter). Luckily, after another week in the hospital, he was fine.
I, myself, have gone in spells using GHB. I have used it throught the day for weeks at a time before, the longest being 2 months, and have stopped cold turkey with no adverse effects. The only "addiction" that I ever notice when stopping is the first night. It's hard to get to sleep the first night you stop using it, since you're used to passing out. After that first night though, it's like I was never using it.
Now I mainly use it as an alcohol replacement, and occasionally I'll use it during the day. If I'm depressed, I'll use it to help me. I'm a very shy person too. So if I'm going to be around a lot of new people I don't know, I find it often helps for me to have had a couple grams. It lets me open up a lot easier.
HappyScrappy
New member
Re: Re: Re: Addicted to GHB
and these reports are where? they were by whom? they were backed by scientific proof?
there are many scientific studies that go exactly against what you say.
on the other hand, there are plenty of websites out there with an agneda against and they use misinformation - like many anti-anythings will use propaganda to make their side look better.
standard psychology stuff man.
if you can point me to a well controlled study - even just one, that uses the propure procedures to back what you say, then I might start thinking along your lines - but until then, I think you are mislead.
you alread said in another post that you were addicted to other drugs - the problem with ghb is when you use it with other drugs or alcohol.
pgerardone said:
and these reports are where? they were by whom? they were backed by scientific proof?
there are many scientific studies that go exactly against what you say.
on the other hand, there are plenty of websites out there with an agneda against and they use misinformation - like many anti-anythings will use propaganda to make their side look better.
standard psychology stuff man.
if you can point me to a well controlled study - even just one, that uses the propure procedures to back what you say, then I might start thinking along your lines - but until then, I think you are mislead.
you alread said in another post that you were addicted to other drugs - the problem with ghb is when you use it with other drugs or alcohol.
HumanShell
New member
BigPsyco said:
Well, I took it recreationally, not just to sleep. I'm 100% for the legalization of GHB. If seriously abused, it will affect different people different ways. I stated that I went on binges, and suffered no after effects when stopping cold turkey. My friend on the other hand, nearly died. The nurses said that if he had not gone to get his father, and just tried to sleep it off/wait it out, his parents would have found him dead the next morning because of how high his pulse was, and how it was still accelerating.
I will say though, that after my friend was out of the hospital, about 5 months later, he made the decision to use some more GHB while watching wrestling PPV's, or when going out, with no problem. It was abusing it throughout the day for two years that fucked him up.
Re: Re: Re: Addicted to GHB
Addicted to GHB? me? What a HOOT!!!
You know NOTHING ABOUT ME.
I use GHB to get the most refreshing sleep possible, because
I HAVE A LOT OF WORK IN UNI. I only sleep 4 maybe
5 hours/night because the course-load for my
masters is horrendous. Thanks to the ghb I am able
to feel "refreshed" upon waking up. It decreses the time
taken to enter REM sleep.
YOU ARE BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE HERE PAL.
I went through MASSES of studies published in the 1960's
and 1970's regarding GHB, and in NONE was it EVER found
to be physiologically addicitve. Psychologically yes,
physiologically NO
I WOULD NOT HAVE USED IT IF IT WAS PHYSIOLOGICALLY
ADDICTIVE. That simple.
Plus, when out-of-school I RARELY USE IT. Only as
an alcohol-replacement.
So don't give me this BS about WITHDRAWAL.
If by some miracle someone gets withdrawal, USE
YOUR FRIGGING BRAIN FOR A CHANGE and
TAPER-DOWN the dosage!!! over a 1-2 week period.
You're not talking to an irresponsible guy here, I VERY MUCH
research to death everything before even trying it.
Try doing it sometime.
Godspeed
pgerardone said:
Addicted to GHB? me? What a HOOT!!!
You know NOTHING ABOUT ME.
I use GHB to get the most refreshing sleep possible, because
I HAVE A LOT OF WORK IN UNI. I only sleep 4 maybe
5 hours/night because the course-load for my
masters is horrendous. Thanks to the ghb I am able
to feel "refreshed" upon waking up. It decreses the time
taken to enter REM sleep.
YOU ARE BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE HERE PAL.
I went through MASSES of studies published in the 1960's
and 1970's regarding GHB, and in NONE was it EVER found
to be physiologically addicitve. Psychologically yes,
physiologically NO
I WOULD NOT HAVE USED IT IF IT WAS PHYSIOLOGICALLY
ADDICTIVE. That simple.
Plus, when out-of-school I RARELY USE IT. Only as
an alcohol-replacement.
So don't give me this BS about WITHDRAWAL.
If by some miracle someone gets withdrawal, USE
YOUR FRIGGING BRAIN FOR A CHANGE and
TAPER-DOWN the dosage!!! over a 1-2 week period.
You're not talking to an irresponsible guy here, I VERY MUCH
research to death everything before even trying it.
Try doing it sometime.
Godspeed
diamonddiceclay
New member
this monday in the fort worth star newspaper they ran a piece on ghb that was identical to what you posted. I did not believe the piece at first, but now...?
pgerardone
New member
Fonz, if you can handle it and if you only use it for sleep go bless you. But there are many out there who are dependant on it and take capfuls through the whole day. The problem is that when someone new to ghb tries it there is no guarantee that they will not become one of those who end up hooked on it. And believe me that when you use ghb all day long for an extended period of time there is physical withdrawal and it is not pleasant. Many become severely depressed upon cessation of ghb once dependant on it. There are so many safer way to get sleep if you have a problem. Ambien works great with no hangover and you can get it easily from your doctor(legally). Also with ambien you don't pop up awake after 4 hours like with ghb and have to take more. Ghb is a nasty and dangerous drug that has no place in bodybuilding.
HumanShell
New member
pgerardone said:
One of the things I like about GHB is the ability it gives you to get a "full" night of sleep in only 4 hours. Great if you have to stay up all night studying, and be up early for school/work/training etc...
Fonz, you may be using for a sleeping aid and for tha I believe you. But that is not how a lot of people I know use it. Before you know it the caps are calling you. You are thinking during the day damn would be nice to have a cap. Not physically addicted yet, but mentally possiblly. Then you cap out during the day. And then another to cut the edge. Then if you do not cap out you start to get the shakes. So you cap out again. Before you know it you have to cap out every fucking hour. I know this for a fact. I have many friends who I scene go through some shit because of this. I am not talking bad about gbh just my experience. I am glad that I did not get to that level. But it is fucked up when your friends are trying to get detoxed with no luck. Apparently there are only a handfull of professionals who know how to properly detox ghb and if not done right it is a fact you could definitely die. But Fonz you seem to have it under control, but watch out it may hit you in the ass and then what. Oh by the way everyone I know who has ever been addicted to ghb tried to give me 101 reasons why it is good for you. So keep spreading the word because if you say it enough you might start believing yourself....
surehands2
New member
is 1,4 physically addicting or mentally?
HappyScrappy
New member
pgerardone said:
AND as a cool bonus - Ambien IS addictive!!!
whoo hoo!
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D
dballer
Guest
Mackavelli... I agree with you bro... the Fonz can argue all he wants... but he is wrong about this one. I saw one of my friends almost die from detox... it was sick as hell too. If Fonz is that cool, that he does not want to believe in the dangers... well..... you are not gonna change his mind. Just drop it. you warned them. I know your right. The others who have read this and know about detox know your right.... and the guys calling bullshit on you will find out when they quit.
mfarrington
New member
A girl gave me some, and that night, she did the same thing as Nadraloner. I later discovered that she was addicted ( her body was accustomed to the infusion ) to the stuff. She also contracted extreme amnesia.
Didn't do me that way, but, because of all the negative experiences that occur, the stuff should definitley be out of the hands of the weak at will.
Didn't do me that way, but, because of all the negative experiences that occur, the stuff should definitley be out of the hands of the weak at will.
FullCircle
New member
GHB does in fact cause physical dependence. Addiction is a trait characterized by genetic variables which may allow for someone to be an "addict". Addicts easily become "addicted" to the high, while they may not be physiologically dependent (which causes withdrawls). Fonz, your normally right on with your posts, but I don't know if you have done your homework on this one. Doing a quick search in a couple easily accessable journals turned up many studies showing that GHB causes physical dependance. Here's a couple real quick:
those were just off medline. NIH has more, and there are more in JAMA. GHB dependence is real. What is metabolizes into has nothing to do with it. If you supply a constant elevated dose of GHB, the bodys ability or need to manufacture it declines (just like test). Decreased GHB levels is nothing to joke about. It's known to be present in everything from depression to retartedness (sp?).
-FC
those were just off medline. NIH has more, and there are more in JAMA. GHB dependence is real. What is metabolizes into has nothing to do with it. If you supply a constant elevated dose of GHB, the bodys ability or need to manufacture it declines (just like test). Decreased GHB levels is nothing to joke about. It's known to be present in everything from depression to retartedness (sp?).
-FC
growin'
New member
I've read a few studies on G, and I agree with Fonz. I use very infrequently during times I can't afford many hours of sleep (ie finals in school, or project due at work). If someone needs to take something every hour to take the edge off, they need to evaluate themselves. Sounds like a serious anxiety disorder. You could easily replace G with Valium, cigarettes, booze, weed, whatever. G just happens to make people feel good. I think that person who needs a cap an hour would abuse anything.
HappyScrappy
New member
FullCircle - thanks for a more well thought out post - but it still isn't quite what you think.
Things I will point out:
1) no description of how the studies were done, and these are solely the hypothesized results - nothing is backed right there - just b/c someone at a university hypothesizes it - they are wrong a lot so that doesn't make is gospel
2) they say "possible physical dependence " - they have no proof
3) they note high doses and actual abuse - what most of us, including Fonz, do, is not abuse.
The withdrawal is over very quickly and if you read more on it - you will see that if you taper the doses, you get zero withdrawal.
and the withdrawal is NOT from the GHB - it is your body missing the dopamine rush that it will get with ghb use.
when you use heroin, your body becomes dependant on the heroin and its metabolites - when you use GHB, your body enjoys its effects on your system and misses them - but is not dependant on them.
much in the same way that pot is NOT physically addictive, but I'm sure we all know somebody that is basically addicted to it - they are addicted to the results that it gives, but they aren't physically dependant on it.
Things I will point out:
1) no description of how the studies were done, and these are solely the hypothesized results - nothing is backed right there - just b/c someone at a university hypothesizes it - they are wrong a lot so that doesn't make is gospel
2) they say "possible physical dependence " - they have no proof
3) they note high doses and actual abuse - what most of us, including Fonz, do, is not abuse.
The withdrawal is over very quickly and if you read more on it - you will see that if you taper the doses, you get zero withdrawal.
and the withdrawal is NOT from the GHB - it is your body missing the dopamine rush that it will get with ghb use.
when you use heroin, your body becomes dependant on the heroin and its metabolites - when you use GHB, your body enjoys its effects on your system and misses them - but is not dependant on them.
much in the same way that pot is NOT physically addictive, but I'm sure we all know somebody that is basically addicted to it - they are addicted to the results that it gives, but they aren't physically dependant on it.
HappyScrappy
New member
this is off topic- but pgerardone, what law school did you attend?
pgerardone
New member
Happyscrappy, listen I know you really want to believe that ghb is harmless as does fonz and many others who use it but the fact is ghb is a fucked up and dangerous drug. You are trying to justify using it in every possible way. "The withdrawal does not last long" well heroin withdrawal lasts about the same amount of time. And then you go on to say that you are not really withdrawing from the ghb??? WTF, what do you think caused the dopamine rush? Of course you are withdrawing from the ghb. As for tapering, any drug can be tapered off of. A heroin addict can taper off of heroin and have little withdrawal. The problem is that once someone is addicted it is about impossible for them to taper because at a point in the taper they will no longer get high.
I have first hand experience with ghb withdrawal, I witnessed it and it is not pleasant and it is very real. The person could not handle it and is still using ghb throughout the day. I want to ask all you ghb users one question...Why do you use it? There is no good reason other then to get ripped or to pick up your mood. If you say to sleep there are much better options out there for sleep(ambien or sonata). The scariest thing about ghb abuse is that it has been theorized that after a long period of ghb abuse a person will never be able escape depression without drugs. I even read that someone addicted to ghb for a long time only has one choice to get off and not be depressed and that is to get on methadone. Why the fuck would anyone want to use this when no one really knows what the long term effects will be.
I have first hand experience with ghb withdrawal, I witnessed it and it is not pleasant and it is very real. The person could not handle it and is still using ghb throughout the day. I want to ask all you ghb users one question...Why do you use it? There is no good reason other then to get ripped or to pick up your mood. If you say to sleep there are much better options out there for sleep(ambien or sonata). The scariest thing about ghb abuse is that it has been theorized that after a long period of ghb abuse a person will never be able escape depression without drugs. I even read that someone addicted to ghb for a long time only has one choice to get off and not be depressed and that is to get on methadone. Why the fuck would anyone want to use this when no one really knows what the long term effects will be.
HappyScrappy
New member
pgerardone said:
sorry - that could look like a contradiction I suppose. I was trying to see if from either side there and point out that either way, you are looking at something that isn't what you say it is.
and the sleep drugs you mention are far worse in my mind since they are actually physically addictive.
the point is that I use the stuff for sleep - I use at most 8mls (and that would knock me the fuck out) at night and I don't use it during the day.
if you use it throughout the day, then you, in my mind, are a fucking idiot anyway.
it helps me sleep, and is NOT addictive - if you or someone you know has the type of biological reaction where they are easily addicted to things (hell, I know people addicted to chocolate for a very similar reaction in the brain), that that is fine - but I'm sinply arguing the semantics.
you are NOT addicted to the GHB - if there is a psychological addiction present, then you are addicted to the results that the drug in your system provides - as I said with pot.
and you didn't say what law school you went to
This is a fucking stupid-ass thread.
This thread would GET LAUGHED OUT OF ANY
BIO-CHEMISTRY DEPT.
"I think", "It gave me withdrawal" etc...etc...
THIS MEANS NOTHING.
To ACTUALLY PROVE that GHB is indeed ADDICTIVE
you'd have to measue brain neuro-transmitter
levels Pre and post-GHB. AND also, the time it takes
to normalize the transmitters to normalize after that.
THIS HAS BEEN DONE WITH MORPHINE etc...
In fact, its also been done with GHB.
AND THE COCLUSION WAS THAT IT IS NOT
BLOODY PHYSIOLOGICALLY ADDICTIVE.
That is called SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE not the BS conjecture
you guys are sprouting.
In fact 99% of you HAVE NO INKLING as to how GHB works and
Yo'ure actually commenting.......LMFAO!!!!
You guys are weak. That simple. You can't handle the responsibility
of taking drugs in moderation, then DON'T TAKE THEM.
Its guys like you that got GHB banned.
Godspeed
This thread would GET LAUGHED OUT OF ANY
BIO-CHEMISTRY DEPT.
"I think", "It gave me withdrawal" etc...etc...
THIS MEANS NOTHING.
To ACTUALLY PROVE that GHB is indeed ADDICTIVE
you'd have to measue brain neuro-transmitter
levels Pre and post-GHB. AND also, the time it takes
to normalize the transmitters to normalize after that.
THIS HAS BEEN DONE WITH MORPHINE etc...
In fact, its also been done with GHB.
AND THE COCLUSION WAS THAT IT IS NOT
BLOODY PHYSIOLOGICALLY ADDICTIVE.
That is called SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE not the BS conjecture
you guys are sprouting.
In fact 99% of you HAVE NO INKLING as to how GHB works and
Yo'ure actually commenting.......LMFAO!!!!
You guys are weak. That simple. You can't handle the responsibility
of taking drugs in moderation, then DON'T TAKE THEM.
Its guys like you that got GHB banned.
Godspeed
HappyScrappy
New member
if people want to argue it, that is fine, but I guess I agree with Fonz on this one.
what scares me is the number of times I've seen the correlation of people that claim they've had problems, and the number of times I've seen them say "I used to take X cap(fuls) a day..."
WTF?! capfuls? since when did a capful become a way of measuring things? last I checked there was no standardized cap size on things.
use a fucking syringe, use a reputable source, and use it responsibly.
the capful guys are usually the ones that also say "that shit is dangerous man - one time I took 4 capfuls of it and then only 5 shots of bacardi 151 and the next thing I knew I was in the hospital and they say I almost died - that ghb is bad shit"
hey dipshit - it isn't bad if you didn't mix it with the alcohol.
I've seen it too many times on the board and it scares and confuses me.
what scares me is the number of times I've seen the correlation of people that claim they've had problems, and the number of times I've seen them say "I used to take X cap(fuls) a day..."
WTF?! capfuls? since when did a capful become a way of measuring things? last I checked there was no standardized cap size on things.
use a fucking syringe, use a reputable source, and use it responsibly.
the capful guys are usually the ones that also say "that shit is dangerous man - one time I took 4 capfuls of it and then only 5 shots of bacardi 151 and the next thing I knew I was in the hospital and they say I almost died - that ghb is bad shit"
hey dipshit - it isn't bad if you didn't mix it with the alcohol.
I've seen it too many times on the board and it scares and confuses me.
GHB can be phys. addictive
I know two people very close friends who were extremely addicted to ghb...the withdrawal was like a tv portrayal of a heroin addicts withdrawal... shot out nervous shaky sweaty and inability to speak clearly,, it was pretty scary shit...both were put on serious meds and went through some shit to get off...one went back on and you will be able to see an ABC afterschool special interview from him.
I know two people very close friends who were extremely addicted to ghb...the withdrawal was like a tv portrayal of a heroin addicts withdrawal... shot out nervous shaky sweaty and inability to speak clearly,, it was pretty scary shit...both were put on serious meds and went through some shit to get off...one went back on and you will be able to see an ABC afterschool special interview from him.
JAWBREAKER
New member
Does anyone know what happened to that VERVE? That shit was the bomb, in my opinion I liked it much better than G. I heard the government shut there company down or something.
surehands2
New member
anyone know teh effects of pure 1,4 on ya stomach ifeel like i need to throw up after every meal! when i take it
HappyScrappy
New member
the taste and smell of gbl make me want to gag/puke, but I usually take it on an empty stomach due to the way the stuff reacts with insulin
pgerardone
New member
Fonz, just keep kidding yourself man. I'm dropping this now and I wish you luck but you are heading for trouble.
HappyScrappy
New member
pgerardone said:
again, still haven't said what law school.
Strong_Man20
New member
bump this up for more views....
im considering trying it soon!!
im considering trying it soon!!
We still have a lot of people saying G is either harmless or as bad as heroin. The methadone theory is complete bullshit. GHB was sold OTC up until the early 90's and GBL was being sold up until 97. If all the people taking Renewtrient or another GBL product had been taking heroin up until it was pulled, we would have a much larger problem.
GHB has been around for a very long time and if it were on the same level as heroin, everyone would have found out a long, long time ago.
Also, there isnt trace amounts of heroin in a steak or your body either. And heroin wasnt approved to treat narcolepsy earlier this year.
GHB isnt the safest thing in the world, but its not the anti-christ either.
GHB has been around for a very long time and if it were on the same level as heroin, everyone would have found out a long, long time ago.
Also, there isnt trace amounts of heroin in a steak or your body either. And heroin wasnt approved to treat narcolepsy earlier this year.
GHB isnt the safest thing in the world, but its not the anti-christ either.
some people are pretty ignorant when it comes to addictions... personally i have never been addicted to anything....Well ok im addicted to juice but we know how that one works!!hehe...but not everybody reacts the same to anything...for example we all know cigarettes are addictive...but i might say thats bullshit because i have tried them and i didnt feel any sort of addiction whatsoever...but i have the intelligence to know that some people may react to cigs differently and the nicotine may react chemically in others differently than me, i applaud those who are strong minded like myself, but the fact remains some things are addictive.
just my worthless 2 cents
just my worthless 2 cents
pgerardone
New member
WTF are you talking about what law school? I listed it on my profile but what does that have to do with ghb? This is getting to the point where people are getting pissed and attacking each other. Like I said before I really don't care what people do. Personally I think most drugs should be legal because adults should make their own decisions. What I was trying to say is that ghb is not harmless. That is how Fonz was coming across and ghb if far from harmless.HappyScrappy said:
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HumanShell
New member
Fonz and orca...
Like I said, I'm a huge G supporter, but what do you think could be the cause of my friends problems that I wrote about earlier. Of course, while he was in the hospital, they could never figure out what caused it, as he never mentioned GHB, and neither did I.
Like I said, I'm a huge G supporter, but what do you think could be the cause of my friends problems that I wrote about earlier. Of course, while he was in the hospital, they could never figure out what caused it, as he never mentioned GHB, and neither did I.
FreakMonster
New member
GHB causes nothing but trouble!! Usually..
It safe in a sense if you use it correctly but if you don't respect GHB it will kill you or become highly addicted.
I've seen my share of bad things happen to my friends.
2 friends got severely addicted that they were taking G all day long. 1 eventually died the other eventually went through withdrawls for about a week seeing all kinds of fucked up hallucinations and could sleep for over 72 hours.
i've seen several people almost die including a girl that was foaming at the mouth because she took too much. We thought she wouldn't make it but eventually she did.
I know of several people asking me on a weekly basis if I know where to get some because they needed it so bad. It gets so fucking annoying when I tell them I can't get them any and they just ask me again the next week anyways. How many times do I have to say no!!
Good buddy of mine got pulled over with 2 ounces of G in his car. He was pulled over for swerving lanes and speeding. Cop thought he was drunk so he took a breathlyzer but blew 0.0 Cop decided to search his car and found it. The cop that pulled him over though was on the Narcotics unit so he knew exactly what it was. Sad thing is no cop at the police station didn't even knew what the fuck GHB was. Neither did the Judge which was a women. She had to ask him what it was.
Bitch gave him 5 yr's probation, 2 weekends in jail, $1,500 fine, licence suspended for 1 yr., and drug rehab classes.
Personally I like the stuff but when you start giving it to other people that's when you open yourself to a world of trouble because you never know what that person has in his system or how they will react to it.
It safe in a sense if you use it correctly but if you don't respect GHB it will kill you or become highly addicted.
I've seen my share of bad things happen to my friends.
2 friends got severely addicted that they were taking G all day long. 1 eventually died the other eventually went through withdrawls for about a week seeing all kinds of fucked up hallucinations and could sleep for over 72 hours.
i've seen several people almost die including a girl that was foaming at the mouth because she took too much. We thought she wouldn't make it but eventually she did.
I know of several people asking me on a weekly basis if I know where to get some because they needed it so bad. It gets so fucking annoying when I tell them I can't get them any and they just ask me again the next week anyways. How many times do I have to say no!!
Good buddy of mine got pulled over with 2 ounces of G in his car. He was pulled over for swerving lanes and speeding. Cop thought he was drunk so he took a breathlyzer but blew 0.0 Cop decided to search his car and found it. The cop that pulled him over though was on the Narcotics unit so he knew exactly what it was. Sad thing is no cop at the police station didn't even knew what the fuck GHB was. Neither did the Judge which was a women. She had to ask him what it was.
Bitch gave him 5 yr's probation, 2 weekends in jail, $1,500 fine, licence suspended for 1 yr., and drug rehab classes.
Personally I like the stuff but when you start giving it to other people that's when you open yourself to a world of trouble because you never know what that person has in his system or how they will react to it.
FullCircle
New member
Fonz, I don't see the need to be so defensive. You are acting (note I said "acting") like an addict with your denile and defensiveness.
Just a couple more... There is one I am aware of that is an actual in house study that was done in the early 80's, but I can't seem to find it. I'll keep looking.
Anyway, listen guys, I find GHB as benefitial and enjoyable as anyone, trust me on that.
There is a reason I feel GHB to cause physical dependency that is beyond 3rd person anecdotes. Myself and at least three others suffered withdrawls from it a couple years ago after 25g+ daily usage. Although mine were minor compared to some of the above listed (anxiety, depression, insomnia, lethargy...likely a result of the insomnia) they were without a doubt present. Lasted about a month till all symptoms subsided, most lingering being the anxiety, and the shortest lived was insomnia lasting about a week. If used properly its a safe and useful compound, but it does have drawbacks if abused. There is no argument when it comes to comparing toxicity and addictive potential...alcohol kicks GHB's ass.
GHB is our friend, just don't piss him off and use him too much.
-FC
Just a couple more... There is one I am aware of that is an actual in house study that was done in the early 80's, but I can't seem to find it. I'll keep looking.
Anyway, listen guys, I find GHB as benefitial and enjoyable as anyone, trust me on that.
There is a reason I feel GHB to cause physical dependency that is beyond 3rd person anecdotes. Myself and at least three others suffered withdrawls from it a couple years ago after 25g+ daily usage. Although mine were minor compared to some of the above listed (anxiety, depression, insomnia, lethargy...likely a result of the insomnia) they were without a doubt present. Lasted about a month till all symptoms subsided, most lingering being the anxiety, and the shortest lived was insomnia lasting about a week. If used properly its a safe and useful compound, but it does have drawbacks if abused. There is no argument when it comes to comparing toxicity and addictive potential...alcohol kicks GHB's ass. GHB is our friend, just don't piss him off and use him too much.
-FC
Quote by Fonz in the club board
I've got a 500ml bottle of GHB for my 7-day stay there. I'm going to go through the ENTIRE bottle this year..............muhaha
Just thinking about the party gets me wired.
I'm NOT sleeping for the ENTIRE week.(Yeah right....LOL
END Quote---
Does this sound like a guy who takes it just to sleep?????
I've got a 500ml bottle of GHB for my 7-day stay there. I'm going to go through the ENTIRE bottle this year..............muhaha
Just thinking about the party gets me wired.
I'm NOT sleeping for the ENTIRE week.(Yeah right....LOL
END Quote---
Does this sound like a guy who takes it just to sleep?????
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Wombat said:
Wombat, you are SO TAKING my post out of context.
I WILL BE IN IBIZA!!!!!
In IBIZA you PARTY ALL-DAY.
I'd rather do GHB than weed, alcohol, X,K, LSD, speed, etc.. etc..
I did this last year and the year before that and had NO PROBLEMS.
I use high doses only for one week THE ENTIRE YEAR and I'm
addicted to it.......LOL
I'm sorry but taking GHB in high doses is FAR SAFER than
combining 3-4 party drugs all at once+copious amounts
of alcohol.
Besides, I normally ony go through about 250-300ml at the
most in those 7 days. Thats 35-40ml's/day.
I also go clubbing for about 14 hours/day.
High amount excercise=High GHB excretion rate
Not to mention my tolerance IS MUCH HIGHER than
a normal persons.
The only problem I get at high doses is I lose my
apetite. Thats about it.
Once out of ibiza I just go back to my normal routine.
So, nice try.
Godspeed
FrankRizzo
New member
It's Machiavelli
GHB is a great drug/supplement
You need to know how to use it correctly. Get sodium based G from a reliable source. Try it out at home and then take a few caps before you go out. Drink a few beers and you will feel relaxed and happy. Do not start taking caps after your shot of jager or you will end up in the ER. Take a few caps, get relaxed then drink a few miller lights. Leave the G at home. Dont fucking abuse it and start taking it every day or you are in for serious trouble. I took it all day long for a year and it totally killed my sex drive, I felt akward without it and when I did take caps, I felt horrible about myself becaue I knew I needed help. Stay away from potassium based G that will land you in the ER quick. GHB is an excellent drug for athletes. Respect it and dont abuse it.
You need to know how to use it correctly. Get sodium based G from a reliable source. Try it out at home and then take a few caps before you go out. Drink a few beers and you will feel relaxed and happy. Do not start taking caps after your shot of jager or you will end up in the ER. Take a few caps, get relaxed then drink a few miller lights. Leave the G at home. Dont fucking abuse it and start taking it every day or you are in for serious trouble. I took it all day long for a year and it totally killed my sex drive, I felt akward without it and when I did take caps, I felt horrible about myself becaue I knew I needed help. Stay away from potassium based G that will land you in the ER quick. GHB is an excellent drug for athletes. Respect it and dont abuse it.
Here's my $.02 on the topic..
I think "addiction" is very, very psychological. I've done GHB for two years straight.. Came off cold turkey with no problems..
I've even used the infamous 'bain every day for two weeks straight.. Came off cold turkey-- no problems.
I can't help that weak willed and un-diciplined individuals get addicted (physiologically of psycholgically, whatever) and then try and blame the drug for their weakness.
I am however addicted to nasal spray.. go figure... But I don't "see vampires "
or shit like that when I don't use it.. I juse cannot breathe as well.
Andy
I think "addiction" is very, very psychological. I've done GHB for two years straight.. Came off cold turkey with no problems..
I've even used the infamous 'bain every day for two weeks straight.. Came off cold turkey-- no problems.
I can't help that weak willed and un-diciplined individuals get addicted (physiologically of psycholgically, whatever) and then try and blame the drug for their weakness.
I am however addicted to nasal spray.. go figure... But I don't "see vampires "
or shit like that when I don't use it.. I juse cannot breathe as well.Andy
jakethemus
New member
I don't think addiction is purely psychological at all.
That is Bullshit!
Some of us have a genetic predispition (sp?) to addiction.
All this weak willed, un disciplined talk really fucking winds me up.
Maybe for a lot of people GHB isn't addictive at all, but for a few people including myself it is very addictive and the withdrawls are no joke.
Anyway GHB is crap if you ask me, smoke a joint if you need to get high or get to sleep, its more fun and less likely to fuck you up.
Just my opinions on this.
That is Bullshit!
Some of us have a genetic predispition (sp?) to addiction.
All this weak willed, un disciplined talk really fucking winds me up.
Maybe for a lot of people GHB isn't addictive at all, but for a few people including myself it is very addictive and the withdrawls are no joke.
Anyway GHB is crap if you ask me, smoke a joint if you need to get high or get to sleep, its more fun and less likely to fuck you up.
Just my opinions on this.
D
dballer
Guest
Fonz said:
Why do you have to do any mind altering substance in Ibezia??? Or wherever you're going? I just do not understand why people cannot just walk into a situation and be comfortable with themselves. I see too many people that go the "I gotta be wasted dude..."
It is a shame. I could care less how much G you drink.. X, K, whatever weakness you like to poison yourself with.
mfarrington
New member
Agree...and to circumvent the origination of the thread with all of the positive comments is like being guest speaker at an AA meeting and preaching that alcohol is good for the body.
D
dballer
Guest
It does not mean that anyone is better than others. Nobody is perfect, but the fact that people die from all substance abuse is a shame. I cannot look down on a "G User" because I have used this... but to tell people it is GOOD is just as messed up as telling someone what not to do.
I just hope the people who do buy it use their heads. I think that is the same with any drug. Just be careful... no sense in the waste of any human life....... well with some exceptions.
I just hope the people who do buy it use their heads. I think that is the same with any drug. Just be careful... no sense in the waste of any human life....... well with some exceptions.
The Iron Game
New member
pgerardone said:
The point here is that its the person who becomes an addict, not the ghb making the person become an addict.
The Iron Game said:
God damn AMEN!!!!
And why do people need to be on mind-altering drugs at Ibiza?? Why do people need to ride roller coasters at theme parks? B/c it's fun! Can you have fun at Six Flags without riding any 'coasters? Yeah.. But it wouldn't be the same.
So what if Fonz can't dance w/out a little G? I, personally, have some sweet-feet when it comes to the pop-n-break .. but it took practise.. and I can move much better when I'm sober.. but it's not as fun. If nobody got fucked up at clubs there would be a fraction of the people on the floor.. And girls wouldn't come up and hump your legs as much.
Andy
D
dballer
Guest
In that case I recomend Heroin or Morphine.. the high is much more euphoric than "G" and if you get a girl on that.. and she will do more than hump your leg!
dballar---You may see drugs as a weakness but if your putting something into your body and doesn't bother anyone else then who cares. Is it any diff--then a so-called bodybuilder that works out and can't get his bodyfat down below 10% but would love to be under 7% but just can't stay away from the pasta or ice cream. That's a weakness to me. Last I knew, heart disease, diabetes and cancer kills a lot more people(from being obese) then rec-drugs.
D
dballer
Guest
Wombat... you are right. "I may see" was the key phrase... this is just my opinion... I did not mean to offend you. If the Fonz wants to drink G... god by all means go for it. You are also right about eating the ice cream. Anytime you do not stick by your guns... that is a weakness...... so sorry man, you are not gonna change my mind.
I am not against "G" ... but I know for a fact that it is addictive as hell. I know it is hard as hell to come off. I was throwing in my opinion. I was not saying "Hey guys.. stop now... cause I am smarter than you... I know more and .... blah blah blah..."
I am not against "G" ... but I know for a fact that it is addictive as hell. I know it is hard as hell to come off. I was throwing in my opinion. I was not saying "Hey guys.. stop now... cause I am smarter than you... I know more and .... blah blah blah..."
Hey dudes
Im an active user of GHB so I thought Id share my knowledge..,
Personally, I find GHB to be a great drug (Im a recreational drug user). It lowers ur inhibitions, makes u feel horny, its relativily easy on your body and brain compared to alchohol, and its cheap.
But like all drugs, youve got to watch out for the psychological addiction . Ive read a couple posts by people saying that G isnt psyiologically addictive because indirect measurments of neurotransmitters effected by G intake wernt sufficent to satisfy the criteria for an "addiction".
With Scientific studies youve got to be aware of these two things (and others, but just for our use):
1) how scientists psyiologically define adddiction, or how they operationalize the variable "Addiction" so they can objectivily measure it in the experiement....... If scientist define addiction as having less than xxxx number of neurotransmitters in a given pathway or in a structure of the brain, well then thats groovey. But often, "addiction" is difficult to "operationalize" because its a complex psychological and psyiological reaction to exogenus substances. The point being, just because one scientists defines addiction in one way, doesnt make it the end all be all of how addiction should be psyiologically defined. Often variables like addiction are operationalized or defined in ways experimenters can objectivily measure with tools available, so the tools used to measure a variable like addiction constrain how the variable is defined in the first place.
2) psychological addiction can be just as strong as psyioligcally addiction.
My spelling is crap. Psychological addiction causes pysiological changes in the brain, thats why it can be just as strong as pysiological addiction. Our brains contain a neuronal pathway called the reward pathway. Certain drugs can "short circuit" this pathway or activate it, like herion and cocaine. I dont think GHB works on this pathway, but it elicits feelings of calmness, wellbeing, ect.......so its easy to understand how and why someone could become addicted to G.....it makes them feel great
I dont endorse the use of drugs. If you want to use them, youve got to use ur head. Ive found G effects my short-term -sensory memory.........like when someone speaks and im writing what theyre saying, i have a hard time remembering 3 or 4 sentances. Before i used G , no problem. I think it also effects word recall, but again, i cant be sure.
As for the people that got hooked. I beleive it. Any drug, chemical, food, substance, or matter can fuck you up if you ingest to much. If you drink to much water you can halluencinate. Everything you put into your body, interacts with your biology and ulitamately can effect howyou feel.
Moral of the story: If youve got a history of drug dependance , i wouldnt take it. It can be fun, but use it responsibly. Peace
Im an active user of GHB so I thought Id share my knowledge..,
Personally, I find GHB to be a great drug (Im a recreational drug user). It lowers ur inhibitions, makes u feel horny, its relativily easy on your body and brain compared to alchohol, and its cheap.
But like all drugs, youve got to watch out for the psychological addiction . Ive read a couple posts by people saying that G isnt psyiologically addictive because indirect measurments of neurotransmitters effected by G intake wernt sufficent to satisfy the criteria for an "addiction".
With Scientific studies youve got to be aware of these two things (and others, but just for our use):
1) how scientists psyiologically define adddiction, or how they operationalize the variable "Addiction" so they can objectivily measure it in the experiement....... If scientist define addiction as having less than xxxx number of neurotransmitters in a given pathway or in a structure of the brain, well then thats groovey. But often, "addiction" is difficult to "operationalize" because its a complex psychological and psyiological reaction to exogenus substances. The point being, just because one scientists defines addiction in one way, doesnt make it the end all be all of how addiction should be psyiologically defined. Often variables like addiction are operationalized or defined in ways experimenters can objectivily measure with tools available, so the tools used to measure a variable like addiction constrain how the variable is defined in the first place.
2) psychological addiction can be just as strong as psyioligcally addiction.
My spelling is crap. Psychological addiction causes pysiological changes in the brain, thats why it can be just as strong as pysiological addiction. Our brains contain a neuronal pathway called the reward pathway. Certain drugs can "short circuit" this pathway or activate it, like herion and cocaine. I dont think GHB works on this pathway, but it elicits feelings of calmness, wellbeing, ect.......so its easy to understand how and why someone could become addicted to G.....it makes them feel great
I dont endorse the use of drugs. If you want to use them, youve got to use ur head. Ive found G effects my short-term -sensory memory.........like when someone speaks and im writing what theyre saying, i have a hard time remembering 3 or 4 sentances. Before i used G , no problem. I think it also effects word recall, but again, i cant be sure.
As for the people that got hooked. I beleive it. Any drug, chemical, food, substance, or matter can fuck you up if you ingest to much. If you drink to much water you can halluencinate. Everything you put into your body, interacts with your biology and ulitamately can effect howyou feel.
Moral of the story: If youve got a history of drug dependance , i wouldnt take it. It can be fun, but use it responsibly. Peace
strengthmonster
New member
Fonz, you may be a very clever man and know all your 'scientific studies' but the reality is GHB is addictive. There are thousands of people that have used and will confirm this. If you totally disregard the real life experiences of these people agaiinst what science says then you are very ignorant. Scientists have for centuries been known for mistakes and fuck ups. My friend and trainer of champion bodybuilders Mick Hart was addicted to GHB. He had a hard time coming off and has written a short book on his struggles called Tears on a Keyboard. I seriously recommend anyone using or thinking of using GHB reads it first. It is available to buy through the website link below or if you join the board there, it is available as a free e version download along with 2 of his other publications.
GHB is addictive physically and psychologically and I don't care what any scientist says. The evidence is all around us. Funny how everybody on this thread defending it is currently using eh? If you get off your high horses, stand back and look at yourselves you will see you are in denial (of course you never will, you'll just get even more infuriated). Honestly, I've heard smack heads and coke heads defend their drug of choice in much the same way.
GHB is addictive physically and psychologically and I don't care what any scientist says. The evidence is all around us. Funny how everybody on this thread defending it is currently using eh? If you get off your high horses, stand back and look at yourselves you will see you are in denial (of course you never will, you'll just get even more infuriated). Honestly, I've heard smack heads and coke heads defend their drug of choice in much the same way.
fallenangel
New member
I was watching a program on the history channel about drugs and one expert and before any one who uses GHB asks i don't know her name or qualifications suffice to say it obviously wasn't someone pulled off the streets said she considered it to be more dangerous than even heroin.
My own opinion like any drug (coke, alcohol, x) if you use in moderation say once a fortnight or a month then you'll never get hooked but when your taking it every night you become just like the guy who has to drink every night and the guy who "powders" his nose every night- an addict, trying to convince themselves that a real addict is one benchmark above you .An example the guy who drinks 15 whiskies a night but thinks only a guy who drink 20 whiskies a night is an addict. its a trap. but saying that i still think i feel all drugs should be legalised after all who are the government unless you are mentally ill to tell you what you can do with your own body.
My own opinion like any drug (coke, alcohol, x) if you use in moderation say once a fortnight or a month then you'll never get hooked but when your taking it every night you become just like the guy who has to drink every night and the guy who "powders" his nose every night- an addict, trying to convince themselves that a real addict is one benchmark above you .An example the guy who drinks 15 whiskies a night but thinks only a guy who drink 20 whiskies a night is an addict. its a trap. but saying that i still think i feel all drugs should be legalised after all who are the government unless you are mentally ill to tell you what you can do with your own body.
yes ghb, gbl, and 1,4 can be physically addictive. as for it being as bad as heroin, i dont think so. if i get caught up and take a bunch of doses for a few days straight, i get some bad withdrawal symptoms from it. i cant sleep at all, i get the shakes, panic attacks, increased heart beat, and a over all shitty feeling. these symptoms are gone after about 24 hours. it sucks, but its not too hard to quit. i find that if i gradually reduce the doses over a couple of days, the withdrawal symptoms are not that bad.
Hey dudes
This is probably going to piss some people off, but wtf. ........
Its funny, alot of people who are saying GHB is "terriable" are probably injecting hardcore anabolic steriods into their ass. Anabolic steriods are just as "addictive" as G. Steroids dont effect neurotransmitter levels directly, but its that "high" it gives u from looking in the mirror and seeing 20 pounds of lean muscle added to ur physique. Soon you begin to feel small and puney when your not on a cycle, and then ur cycling 6 times a year and its all cool.
Im not saying 2 wrongs make a right, but with moderation and education , your usually in the clear. Just my 2 freaking cents.
This is probably going to piss some people off, but wtf. ........
Its funny, alot of people who are saying GHB is "terriable" are probably injecting hardcore anabolic steriods into their ass. Anabolic steriods are just as "addictive" as G. Steroids dont effect neurotransmitter levels directly, but its that "high" it gives u from looking in the mirror and seeing 20 pounds of lean muscle added to ur physique. Soon you begin to feel small and puney when your not on a cycle, and then ur cycling 6 times a year and its all cool.
Im not saying 2 wrongs make a right, but with moderation and education , your usually in the clear. Just my 2 freaking cents.
redy2explode
New member
Former GHB Addict, here
I saw your initial post, and I've only read a few of the other posts from everyone. I just wanted to say that I was hooked on G, and I don't wish it on my worst enemy. After figuring out how to make 4 gallons for $400, rather than spend 400 for 1 gallon, I ended up going through about a whole 16 oz. bottle each day. I'm not exagerating one bit. I loved mixing it with ritalin. Man, was I an idiot.
All I can say is the best way to breakaway is to somehow eliminate easy access to it. Withdrawals, for me, lasted for about a week. It is rough, but nothing to cry about. It made my eyes so black, my thoughts became so crazy, plus it was embarrassing when I'd accidently take a little to much and passout somewhere. The way people perceived me overpowered the desire to continue. Now, I wouldn't touch it if it were sitting in front of me. Looking back,....wow.
Goodluck, I wish you the best.
I saw your initial post, and I've only read a few of the other posts from everyone. I just wanted to say that I was hooked on G, and I don't wish it on my worst enemy. After figuring out how to make 4 gallons for $400, rather than spend 400 for 1 gallon, I ended up going through about a whole 16 oz. bottle each day. I'm not exagerating one bit. I loved mixing it with ritalin. Man, was I an idiot.
All I can say is the best way to breakaway is to somehow eliminate easy access to it. Withdrawals, for me, lasted for about a week. It is rough, but nothing to cry about. It made my eyes so black, my thoughts became so crazy, plus it was embarrassing when I'd accidently take a little to much and passout somewhere. The way people perceived me overpowered the desire to continue. Now, I wouldn't touch it if it were sitting in front of me. Looking back,....wow.
Goodluck, I wish you the best.
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