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A dose of reality from a pro.

M

Miracle Man

High End Bro
Platinum
These are not my words. I am passing on some great information from a pro.
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Without sounding cocky I am a very advanced bodybuilder down here in San Diego--cruising at 285lbs or so and going up over 300 this year (again) I came from a very very hard gaining and skinny genetic structure (140lbs about 10 years ago)so gains have never come easy and I didnt start super supplements until I was 225 clean (took me 6 years). (I use food as my chief anabolic) What I am amazed at is the number of 180 to 220lb bodybuilders on the net who spend ungodly amounts of money and use so many different exotic compounds thinking that it is the endall super stack of all stacks. And they take huge, huge risks in trying to acquire these drugs. I have had an abundance of pro and top amateur friends to gain the knowledge that pretty much -these top people in the sport are blasting high amounts of test as the base drug in the offseason to put on pro size with mostly one (sometimes two) other compounds (usually fina, or equipoise or some other non exotic drug). (and gh if it can be afforded). I firmly believe you will gain 2 times the amount of muscle off of 2 grams of test either alone or with another compound than having some kind of exotic stack involving 3 to 6 exotic hard to get expensive compounds. The receptor site theories have proven to be bunk. The cheapest and best stack I can think of anyone doing to put on major size is a gram or two of test with arimidex to keep water off with fina 75 to 150mg every other day for 4 weeks --then 2 to 3 weeks of cruising (test at 300-400mg and clomid at 5 (day one), 4(day two), 3(day three),then 2 every day for 2 weeks)--and then back on everything full again (maybe equipoise used instead of fina this time)for 4 weeks (then 2 to 3 weeks cruising again etc etc)---if you cant gain gobs of muscle on that nothing exotic (masteron, etc etc etc) surely isnt going to do it for you. Testosterone is always the base for any gaining cycle of any pro freind Ive had or top people with whom I talked with off record. I have never even been over 1000mg of test myself (yet) but I see guys spending and using 10 times the amount I do weighing 70lbs less. I think there is a major problem when the easiest, cheapest and most potent things are right in front of people and they are off searching for substance B-737 undecylate in bulgaria
 
More Info>

I wrote that post quickly and I should of been a little more responsible with saying-those dosages are what I am seeing superheavies who have been around for a while doing. I am of the opinion that people should use the lowest dosages possible that will keep them gaining. If a newbie bodybuilder starts off with 2 grams of T every week and a high dose of fina etc etc and eventually taps out on that where is he going to go? 4000 a week? I believe one should make their way up 750, to 1000 to 1200 to 1500 and so on slowly thru cycles. I am an advocate of the 4 week on 2 week cruising (then back on) method not because of receptor site saturation but due to 3 very important (to me) factors...1)I lift extremely heavy and I push the limits for 4 weeks and I just need 2 weeks to kind of regroup myself and then go balls to the wall again with poundages for the next 4 weeks
2)Same with food intake-I religiously get in 500 to 600 grams of protein and I have to give myself a little break for those 2 weeks(i only go down to 400grams or so) or I'll go crazy
3) I think its of utmost importance to keep yourself regulated hpta wise. If your endogenous test levels diminish due to constant months of high androgens when you do finally come off those size gains fly out the door...if you can keep your endo test somewhat normal you wont get the huge problems that keep most bodybuilders bouncing up and down in bodyweight like yo yo's..namely getting colds and flu's/injuries/depression/lack of aggresion and appetite (which usually means test to estrogen ratio out of whack)...During the cruising period the 400mg of test will keep you from losing any muscle at all and the clomid and arimidex will get you as close (via 2 different routes) to homeostasis as possible.
As far as GH, I have never used it and I wish I could. But the cost is just too much for me at this time. From what I've witnessed short cycles will not do anything so unless I can run it for at least 6 months I am not going to bother. Opinions down here vary but most follow Milos's lead and do 5 days on 2 days off at 6IU's a day or 6 days on 4 off.
 
I dont see how hpta is being recovered. I see.........
Week 1-4 2000mgs Test
Weeks1-4 Eq
Weeks5-6 400mgs test
Weeks7-8 clomid
Week 9 Repeat

And this wont recover hpta. Is the clomid being done 2 weeks after last test inj? I think some things need to be clarified. Plus, in the time he says hes winding down and not pushing it, he should be having his best strength gains. Because , thats when the shit starts kicking in. And as far as getting sick goes. I feel at least being off 3-4 months out of the year and one will be fine........galaxy
 
I too follow his training ideas with excellent results so far, real test will be on my next cycle though... doggcrap is not a 'pro' so to speak (as far as I know) but has some superb ideas ... cycling for pennies is THE best thread ever.
 
I have to admit that "Cycles For Pennies" has TRULY opened my eyes and TOTALLY changed my thinking when it comes to Gear, Training, and Nutrition....TR
 
Frack - The dude has pro quality size, very well respected.....Strong like a mofo......That thread had a great deal of impact on the way i now approach this sport.
 
Good article, although, he's not cycling, he's staying on all the time, no matter what he believes. And, he's not pro.
 
I think it is a great post....I never have mixed a lot of different gear..mainly just test and fina and always get great gains.. I see some the cycles people post and I am amazed on how much people spend....and inject into their body....I do not know maybe if I had more money I would do it.....
 
Bump! Excellent article. It will be a long time before I do 2g/week of test. But I have found test/fina to be excellent and cheap.
 
WHAT!!! YOU'VE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME...

Although the theory behind what this guy is saying has some merit, namely the benefits of testosterone for building mass, as opposed to all the "designer" drugs that are available.

HOWEVER...his cycle is rediculous. First of all, he intends his cycles to only last 4 wks. Well unless he's using Test Prop or Suspension, he'd be missing out on the best part of the gains depending on the esterfication of the testosterone. Also, what kind of Equipoise does he suggest would give you quality gains in 4 wks, as the last time I checked Boldenone undecyclenate has a very long acting ester.

Secondly...you CANNOT recover your natural testosterone production while using 300-400mg of test no matter how much arimidex and clomid you use! His two weeks OFF are merely two weeks at a lower doseage, which as previously mentioned, would be the time when he would likely be making his best gains.

In actuality, you can continue to make gains on this cycle as you're never actually "coming off" during the two weeks, and the second "4 week cycle" should actually be very good. In summarily, please do not believe that this is good way to cycle. I am surprised that someone who claims to have so much "experience" with AAS would be so misinformed with regard to these rudimentary aspects of cycling. Just my .02!
 
Overtrainer: As I'm sure you know, just because someone has experience, or even if they're big and strong, or even if they're pros, doesn't mean they know anything about the most efficaceous use of anabolics.

Some of the comments made in the original thread are capricious while others are just plain dumb.

But he does make one excellent point:

All this exotic stacking is complete nonsense. That's why I lose my patience sometimes when guys want to know if 1400mgs of cyp with 700mgs of deca and 400mgs of EQ with 100mgs of d-bol a day is better than 1300mgs of enanthate with 800mgs of Primo and 400mgs of EQ with 100mgs of Anadrol a day. It's so fucking ridiculous. What's even more ridiculous is the fact that you have people debating the difference.

It comes down to this:

All steroids are based on the testosterone molecule.

If you want a more favorable anabolic/androgen ratio all you need to do is add another drug which is more anabolic. That's it. There are no "Deca" receptors and no "Cypionate" receptors. Most stacks are just a bunch of the same stuff.


And GH sucks.
 
Bump..for those that can shed light into this. I was over on Animals site and read till page 23-25 i believe of this thread. What I don't understand is why can't someone cycle regularly 8-12 weeks, use test in their cycle and just lower the dose for a "break" of 2-4 weeks after the cycle and then start back again with something else. That is a lot of damn test to buy IMO.

Or what about using one compound say fina for example..run it 6,8,10 weeks whatever. A week before its finished say of a scheduled 10 weeker..start at week 8/9 on test and continue with it during the "break". Would it be ok to start on fina again after the break or does test have to be used nonstop??
 
read the entire article all the answers to questions are in there....... you can tune the cycle as you wish 6weeks on 8,12 weeks whatever then you can also tune your "cruising" 2 off 4 off 3 months off whatever. AND he is NOT trying to "recover" he is trying to stay as close to normal as one who is always on can.........
 
and OVRTrainer the long acting esters would work...think about it you use say enth at 800 for 4 weeks tehn cruise with it at 300 your still using it reaping benefits just not continous high dose.......as for eq or deca or what not you can always extend your on time......The main thing stressed with his cycle thoery is it is not a cycle it is a form of continous use while trying to stay somewhat normal in your own functions.
 
Thanks for the information. Very good post, there are so many different outlooks on this subject. What I have seen in terms of usage, time on/off has had a lot to do with ones individual goals.
I personally watched a very successful pro transform his body from 185 lbs, good shape, to 250 lbs of hugeness while staying fairly lean, then cutting down to 235, getting ripped and winning several top bb awards. The first major hurdle took him one year, I know that he did not cycle off during that year. He just continued to improve, it was amazing to watch. Then there are those of us that are having fun, enjoying the effects of the AS, cycling on then off as needed or as personal preference or health concerns dictate. Some of us will compete, some of us may not. Again, another perspective on gaining a massive physique.
 
In Response

panerai::Good article, although, he's not cycling, he's staying on all the time, no matter what he believes. And, he's not pro.

Doggcrapp:: no I am not a pro (I dont know how that came about)--about the cycling part you obviously didnt read the thread as its about keeping your hpta functioning as well as possible regardless of cycle length.

OVRtrainer::WHAT!!! YOU'VE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME......his cycle is rediculous. First of all, he intends his cycles to only last 4 wks. Well unless he's using Test Prop or Suspension, he'd be missing out on the best part of the gains depending on the esterfication of the testosterone.

Doggcrapp:: actually its 4-8 weeks depending on the person and if you think it takes 4 weeks for a steroid to start working in the body you are badly misinformed. That steroid depending on various factors is by and large working within the hour. What do you think is going to happen during a 2 week cruise period? That you will lose all gains of the prior 4 weeks and go back to ground zero?!?!?! As you say: YOU'VE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME......

OVRtrainer::Also, what kind of Equipoise does he suggest would give you quality gains in 4 wks, as the last time I checked Boldenone undecyclenate has a very long acting ester.

Doggcrapp: so it hydrolizes slowly big deal--if you go on Test and EQ for 4 weeks and then do 2 weeks of accillary meds with some low dose test to keep the hpta functioning properly and then hop back on EQ and high dose test again what do you think will happen? back to ground zero again??? Think it out man, Im trying to keep the hpta (which is the center of most peoples cycling problems) functioning which doesnt happen when people do 16 week cycles and hop off for 2-3 weeks with clomid and hcg and then hop back on again.

OVRtrainer::Secondly...you CANNOT recover your natural testosterone production while using 300-400mg of test no matter how much arimidex and clomid you use! His two weeks OFF are merely two weeks at a lower doseage, which as previously mentioned, would be the time when he would likely be making his best gains.

Doggcrapp:: really prove that to me with one freaking study and I dont want to see hpta downregulation studies with low dose test
as clomid arimidex hcg and nolvadex arent being used in those studies in conjunction with 200mg of test. I would much rather someone try to keep the HPTA axis in check my way then do 16-20 weeks of blasting juice. Welcome to the world of sickness, colds, lethargy, joint pain, loss of appetite, and rapid weight loss when they get off--(which doesnt happen with my methods)

OVRtrainer::In actuality, you can continue to make gains on this cycle as you're never actually "coming off" during the two weeks, and the second "4 week cycle" should actually be very good. In summarily, please do not believe that this is good way to cycle. I am surprised that someone who claims to have so much "experience" with AAS would be so misinformed with regard to these rudimentary aspects of cycling. Just my .02!

Doggcrapp:: and im surprised someone can sit on his high horse and spout away without thinking the whole thing out. You are lost in the notion that this is a continual 10 year cycle--ITS NOT!--its whatever length you want it to be 8 weeks 12 weeks 16 weeks etc......the only difference is my methods involve always keeping the HPTA in mind. If you take two twins and one cycles continually for one year straight and the other twin cycles my way for one year straight when they get off I have no doubt my twin will normalize HPTA wise while the other twin will be in a world of muscle loss and low testosterone levels for up to 6-8 months.
 
Nelson Montana::: As I'm sure you know, just because someone has experience, or even if they're big and strong, or even if they're pros, doesn't mean they know anything about the most efficaceous use of anabolics.

Doggcrapp:: and just because someone (Nelson Montana)writes articles in Musclemag Intl yet has been lifting over 20 years yet still weighs (what is it Nelson?) 158lbs? that sure as hell doesnt mean he is the man to go to for answers on how to build muscle. Nelson do you know Ive gained (160lbs) from 137lbs at 19 to 297lbs at 34 years old today--that muscle gain is more than you weigh in bodyweight!!! As this is the third time Ive seen you put me down online with no reply from me--sorry this time your going to get one. If you weigh a buck 58 or so today what the hell did you weigh when you started lifting long ago? 145?

Nelson Montana::Some of the comments made in the original thread are capricious while others are just plain dumb.

Doggcrapp:: this coming from a "know it all" writer who pens articles like "Buddy Training" and other useless trash filler articles. Many years ago you submitted articles to me to print and I wouldnt print them because your articles are trash.
I know of two other muscle magazines who wont print your articles because they find them useless drivel also. Jason at AE will not print your articles anymore because they have no merit as far as gaining muscle and he had to stop the nonsense of you throwing him 3 "buddy training" articles a week.
Because Im 300lbs doesnt make me the all knowing guru and I would never be foolish enough to think that ever(as a true worker of this game is continually learning)-and I will learn from many other profound thinkers in this sport and by doing my own research----but I would never sit back on my throne like you continually do and bash others if you cant even make yourself at least the best bodybuilder in the step class section of your gym.

Nelson Montana::If you really knew how to build the ultimate body in less than six months time, would you keep paying for more? More supplements? More personal training? More courses? More magazines? What if you knew the truth? What if someone were to blow the whistle on the con artists within the bodybuilding world and at the same time, share with you the secrets for packing on thick, dense muscle - fast! And burning off every last ounce of your bodyfat! Sounds unthinkable right? Well, the unthinkable has just happened. Read more...

Doggcrapp:: well if you cant change yourself and I see nobody else yelling Nelson Montana's name as someone who dramatically made them bigger---I think I will do the same thing I do when I come across one of your articles in Musclemag---look at the photos and go on to the next article. Im not cocky of who I am as a bodybuilder and Im not cocky on what I know but I am extremely confident that I can dramatically change people and I have a list of trainees on Animals post and in real life to prove it.......its getting late and I suppose I should let you get back to writing about "Mowing lawns for huge calf growth" for your next musclemag article..............for this forum Im sorry you have seen me post as less a gentleman than I am but this guy has had a bug up his ass for me for a long time and I felt it was time to reply "WITH THE TRUTH"[email protected]
 
Doggcrapp, I have to desagree with you about your way of cycling being any healthier for HPTA then just keep increasing dosages through the whole year.
It's a time factor, not dosage what is important for HPTA recovery, your cruising theory doesn't make any sense. As soon as feedback mechanism tells your body that it doesn't need to produce testosteron anymore the process of athrophy triggered, and it doesn't matter for your body how much testosteron you inject, 300mg/week or 3000mg/week. Recovery will depend on how long your body stays fooled, not on how high with dosages you went.
I thought it's pretty obvious...
 
DOGGCRAP: First off, I don't know who you are, and don't recall putting you down. If you wrote that original article I agree with some points and not others. (This is alsothe first time I recall seeing your name ) Why the stick up your ass?

You obviously don't know what you're talking about in regard to my work. Buddy training? When did I do an article on that?

This isn't any of your business but since you brought up Jason at AE, here's the scoop. He hired me to write for him, but a few weeks into the agreement, his budget wasnt what he had hoped so he asked me to take a cut in pay -- which I refused. No hard feelings. We went our seperate ways. Yet you decide it's okay to concoct a story and present it to the members of the forum, which says something about your credibility no doubt.

I submitted articles to you and you turned them down??? PM me and refresh my memory.
I weigh 190 with 9% bf year round and that's exactly where I want to be. I'm sure you're proud of the fact that you weigh 295 pounds, as if mega-juicing and eating were some great talents. You must think I'm jealous of you. As hard to accept as it may be, I would never want to weigh that much. Most guys that weight just look stupid IMO.

I don't write for guys like you so you don't have to read my material. (Which you haven't obviously.) I write for hardgainer guys -- guys who want to make the most of their natural ability and to use steroids in the safest manner possible. If that doesn't suit you, fine. But get your facts straight before mouthing off on something in which you're completely clueless.
 
Welcome Doggrap - It is very good to see you on board. I hope it is not a fleeting glimpse
 
In Reply

Panerai::Doggcrapp, I have to desagree with you about your way of cycling being any healthier for HPTA then just keep increasing dosages through the whole year.
It's a time factor, not dosage what is important for HPTA recovery, your cruising theory doesn't make any sense. As soon as feedback mechanism tells your body that it doesn't need to produce testosteron anymore the process of athrophy triggered, and it doesn't matter for your body how much testosteron you inject, 300mg/week or 3000mg/week. Recovery will depend on how long your body stays fooled, not on how high with dosages you went.
I thought it's pretty obvious...

Doggcrapp:: panerai you are suggesting that because someone has 200mg of testosterone coursing thru their body the result will be rendering Arimidex, Clomid, Hcg, and Nolvadex completely useless and inert? Then someone better tell every HRT patient and Aids patient in the country that unless they have absolutely zero testosterone in the body that any ancillary meds will not work. Do I believe that if your natural testosterone levels are at 750 before cycle that after 2 weeks of cruising it will be 750 again? hell no. But Im working with signals to the hypothalamus, testes, lower estrogen feedback loops here to make sure the HPTA remains functioning to an extent. I will tell you this---16-24 weeks of continuous blasting of "super supplements" like alot of people do (but lie about the length) will create such a lag time---that the standard 2 weeks of clomid and accompanying antiestrogen will be nothing but a delay to the inevitable---which is extreme lethargy, emotional, high estrogen, appetite loss, fat gain, colds and sickness, joint pains, injuries, and extreme muscle mass loss. Im trying to come up with a reasonable plan to counteract that huge problem. Sadly alot of people are staying on year round now and the majority of top amateurs and pros have been doing that for years. No one fesses up to it though. When is the last time you saw a competitive pro or top amateur show up someplace during the year and look small soft or out of shape? Fifteen to twentyfive guest appearances a year, 10 guest posings, 2 competitions, photo shoots, being in a supplement companies booth at contests---you tell me when these guys are getting off--because in my mind thats at least 37 weekends right there spread out over the year. The bottom line is - Ive seen the Minto studies and know that exog compounds shut down the HPTA pronto--but I dont believe that that you must have absolute zero testosterone levels for ancillary drugs to work or small amounts of testosterone will render arimidex nolvadex hcg and clomid completely useless in HPTA impairment.
 
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In Reply

Nelson Montana::This isn't any of your business but since you brought up Jason at AE, here's the scoop. He hired me to write for him, but a few weeks into the agreement, his budget wasnt what he had hoped so he asked me to take a cut in pay -- which I refused. No hard feelings. We went our seperate ways. Yet you decide it's okay to concoct a story and present it to the members of the forum, which says something about your credibility no doubt.

Doggcrapp::well Jason is a good freind of mine so you might want to try again on this one. HIs budget was fine, the problem was that you were throwing him 3 articles a week that were completely ridiculous.

Nelson Montana:: I weigh 190 with 9% bf year round and that's exactly where I want to be. I'm sure you're proud of the fact that you weigh 295 pounds, as if mega-juicing and eating were some great talents. You must think I'm jealous of you. As hard to accept as it may be, I would never want to weigh that much. Most guys that weight just look stupid IMO.

Doggcrapp:: Nope there was no mega-juicing at all in there (not even close) but you do have me on the mega eating part. I use food as my chief anabolic. I dont think your jealous of me at all and I wouldnt want you to be. Im no pro and I dont put myself over anyone on this planet in any context. I surely dont look down on someone for not being a bodybuilder or not being overly large. I WILL reply to someone who repeatedly puts down others in the same field yet looks upon himself as the "all knowing god of muscle".....(which he isnt even close)

Nelson Montana::I don't write for guys like you so you don't have to read my material. (Which you haven't obviously.) I write for hardgainer guys -- guys who want to make the most of their natural ability and to use steroids in the safest manner possible. If that doesn't suit you, fine. But get your facts straight before mouthing off on something in which you're completely clueless

Doggcrapp:: Ive skimmed your articles and since you find it easy to critique my writings Ill let you know where I disagree on yours. Ive seen you repeatedly state that strength has nothing to do with size. ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT. The largest bodybuilders on this planet are also the most brutally training bodybuilders using the heaviest weights. Francois, Yates, Coleman, Nassir, etc etc etc....The only times you will see that strength isnt size is in cases of elite superior muscle building genetics like Wheeler and Dillett (who if they trained heavy would be even larger) and in powerlifters who curb back food intake to stay in weight classes. So unless someone is on par with Dillett genetically (probaly 50 people on this earth) you better put your nose to the grindstone and use progressively heavier weights to go to your genetic size limits. You seem to have forgotten the whole concept of muscle size adaption Nelson....If heavier and progressive weights meant nothing Ronnie Coleman and Dorian Yates could of stayed at that 135lb bench and 185lb squat and never lifted heavier---and won Olympias.
As far as writing for hardgainers who the hell do you think Im training? mesomorphs? Ive been training people online since August--400 dollars for two months with me...I havent trained one person yet online since August that hasnt gained at least 15lbs to 28lbs in 2 months with me (at roughly the same bodyfat or lower bodyfat)--this includes both natural and enhanced bodybuilders...about a 50/50 mix so far. In real life I havent trained one person who hasnt gained 50lbs with me. And in doing that unlike you I dont have to put down other trainers, writers or other concepts to make myself look better. I have my own definite opinions on what works and a slew of people that IM turning into the best bodybuilders in their [email protected]
 
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champion said:
read the entire article all the answers to questions are in there....... you can tune the cycle as you wish 6weeks on 8,12 weeks whatever then you can also tune your "cruising" 2 off 4 off 3 months off whatever. AND he is NOT trying to "recover" he is trying to stay as close to normal as one who is always on can.........
Click to expand...


Is this correct Doggcrap? Can you tune the cycle and "cruising" period to your own personalized version?
 
DOGGCRAPP: I'll address your last point first.

You keep talking about putting you down, but I don't even know who you are. I've never made myself out to be a "all knowing god of muscle." Don't project and don't put words in my mouth. I'm a writer. I have a point of view that a lot of people can relate to and from which a lot of people have benefited. You have your way. I have mine.

I too have no problem with someone choosing a different body type than mine. But there comes a time where health is an issue. 300 pounds isn't healthy no matter how ripped you are.

As far as Jason goes...well, I don't know what he's telling you, but what I told you is the deal bro. Why would Jason ask me to write for him if he didnt like my work? I wrote about 5 articles for AE. One was a training piece which he said was one of the best workouts he's ever done. Another was a piece on proper injecting. Another was a plan to put on 10 pounds in 2 weeks. I don't know where your "Buddy Training articles " fantasy came form but it wasn't there. And incidentally, since I left AE, they haven't exactly had groundbreaking articles -- a lot of Q&A and supplement adicles. Jasons cool, but I do believe his budget is limited. People put down the muscle magazines but irrespective of some of the content, you have to know how to WRITE to get published. Try t sometime. Anyone can write on the internet.

To say that strength has NOTHING to do with muscle isn't entirely accurate. My point is, someone can be muscular and not particularly strong and vice versa. We see it all the time -- guys with no muscle coming to the gym for the frst time and they throw 3 plates on each side of the bar ad knock out reps. Strength is, TO A GREAT DEGREE, a matter of tendon inserton, bone density and technque. Don't tell me you don't know this! Of course adding muscle will help. I never said otherwise.

Maybe you have something to offer. But it sounds like you're the one who's calling what I do absolute bullshit yet I've helped hundreds of people improve in their bodybuilding goals. So we can agree to disagree on some topics, but again-- get the facts straight and don't make false accusations. That's all I ask. And I'll try to do the same.
 
Doggcrap, your position is based only on your personal belief, and is not supported by anything else. If you read Minto study, that alone should be enough for you to understand that you are wrong. There are plenty of other studies, as well, as comon sense that suggest theory of cruising doesn't make sense.
 
Panerai the minto studies showed how quickly the HPTA axis impairs when an exog compound is taken--but there was nothing in there proving that no feedback signals happen if arimidex, nolvadex, hcg, or clomid where used. If you can show me a study where low dose test 50mg EOD was used and rendered clomid arimidex nolvadex and HCG completely inert--Ill be the first to credit you (there is no such study so like some other theories in bodybuilding such as insulin usage I have to go with theory and what has worked in people Ive helped). As the numbers are adding up into the hundreds now and people are not going up and down like YO YO's with extreme muscle mass losses--Im going to stick with my method. If someone comes forward with a better method that promotes huge size gains with little HPTA impairment--Ill be the first to look into it.
 
Okay Dogcrap, now I will dispute you on this issue. No petty bickering . Just the facts.

When you say that once exogenous T enters the body, it no longer produces endo T so it doesn't matter if you take 300mgs or 3000mgs. I believe that's wrong, and this is why.

1...People who take smaller dosages for shorter periods recover faster. (excluding any post treatment) If shutdown were complete in both cases, supression would be the same.

2...Although any amount of exo T will supress, it isn't a total shutdown. That's why a guy can still impregnate a woman while on HRT.

3...Unless the testicles have completely atrophied, they're working to a degree. People on 300mgs a week don't experience much testicular atrophy, if any.

4...You claim no YO YO effect, but I see it all the time. Guys who juice heavy and then come off lose most o their gains. Guys who do a few low dose short cycles a year keep their gains even when natural.

5...The peripheral contraindications of steroids become more apparent as dosages are raised. Again, HRT doses pose little health risk (and many health benefits -- that's my gig). Whereas, it's undeniable that once dosages go over 1000mgs a week, blood pressure rises, hemocrat levels top off, the testes disappear, liver enzymes become compromised, and PSA levels are a major concern.

I agree with paneral -- you're basing your opinions on what you want to believe. And I don't say that to be antagonistic. I feel you're sincere. It works for you. But the information is off base. And unlike a difference of opinion on so many other topics, this is not a game and the wrong advise can prove disasterous, as it has so many times before.
 
Nelson Montana::When you say that once exogenous T enters the body, it no longer produces endo T so it doesn't matter if you take 300mgs or 3000mgs. I believe that's wrong, and this is why.

Doggcrapp:: I said that? Nelson I think that was a direct quote from Panerai not me

Panerai::As soon as feedback mechanism tells your body that it doesn't need to produce testosteron anymore the process of athrophy triggered, and it doesn't matter for your body how much testosteron you inject, 300mg/week or 3000mg/week
 
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I was staying out of this but...

Nelson

1. the reason people who take smaller amount for shorter periods recover faster is because they have less test to clear. It has nothing to do with the dosage affecting the HPTA. Because the dosage DOESN'T affect its recovery.

2. A guy can impregnate a women at any dose. Not just HRT levels.

3 Nope, I know many of Dr Scruggs patients, like me, who have had plenty of shrinkage at 300mg.

4. Sure if they are clueless about recovery. Mr Nobody (powerlifter) is over 300 lbs at 6'5" and stays within 12% all the time. He started at 150 and an anorexic. He has done cycles that would make your hair stand up and still kept most his gains coming off for most the year. He's just one guy but there are hundreds just like him posting this stuff all time. Not here much anymore though, I must admit. You run in a small guys circle that's all.
 
Doggcrapp, I see that you like the idea that Clomid, Nolvadex and Arimidex will do something to keep HPTA from complete suppression. Well, those are just selective estrogen antagonists or aromatise inhibitors, and there's no magic effect of them on HPTA, besides blocking estrogen receptor, or not letting aromatisation to happen.
HCG is very effective for testicles, but will not do anything to HPTA, well, will add to suppression somewhat, actually.
So, the bottom line is, as long as your body knows, because of negative feedback that it doesn't have to produce testosteron, it will not change its mind, because of any anti-estrogens or aromatise inhibitors, those effect on HPTA is VERY indirect and works only when test levels are low, again, because of the negative feedback.
People have hard time to recover after high doses not because they use high doses, but because of long esters, obviously, it will take much longer to recover from 3g of Sustanon, then from 250mg of it. But, it's not important, the length of the use is MUCH more important, and you seems to neglect it, with your wrong theory.
 
panerai said:

People have hard time to recover after high doses not because they use high doses, but because of long esters, obviously, it will take much longer to recover from 3g of Sustanon, then from 250mg of it. But, it's not important, the length of the use is MUCH more important, and you seems to neglect it, with your wrong theory.
Click to expand...

Actually, Ulter said it better in his point 1.
 
Dogcrap: I stand corrected. With all the back and forth I lost track of who said what. So we agree? Holy fuck.

utter. Point 1. Six of one/half dozen of the other.

2. True. (Funny how they used to think T replacement can be a contraceptive) But someone who takes higher dosages non stop has a greater chance of being near sterile.

3. If guys are shrinking at 300mgs it's most probably because of all the severe cycles they've done prior. Besides HRT shouldn't need to be over 200mgs a week.

4. It isn't so much that I run in small guy circles but more that I deal with people who have real lives and realistic goals. Of course, you NEVER have to go off -- or you can do the psuedo "off" thing which includes slin, GH, bromo, low dose test and d-bol in the morning. : ) You can also do massive dosages non stop. You'll be big alright. But not everyone is willing to devote their lives to aquiring a multitude of drugs 24/7 365 days a year. And as hard as it may be to believe, most guys wouldn't want to be 300 pounds.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
 
Back to the top - good thread. I recommend everyone check out Cycles on Pennies on Animals board for a great training regimen.
 
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