5X5. Is substituting Power Cleans really better than the bo rows?

[cwc73]

I am wanting to start power cleaning. I'm currently doing like an interum session of working out which basically is the volume phase of MC's 5X5. I'm only doing this because it is the holidays, and my gym is closing a lot. Plus i dont know when I will be here and when I'll be traveling. So to my question:

Is doing the Power Cleans in place of the Bent over rows that much better?
Also, these should be the clean from the floor just to the chest...i.e. no "press"?

Thanks
CWC

 

[b fold the truth]

You know...I know so little about the OLY lifts that it is just funny. I also know that they will build your entire body (which can't be a bad thing).

I say do some Power Cleans and see what you think for a few weeks. You will learn from them a few things.
1) Do they work for you.
2) Do they substitute for rows.
3) Should they go somewhere else in your routine.

Sounds like a win-win situation.

B True

 

[cwc73]

yea, you're right. Like I said, I'm in an interim phase right now, where I am just getting in when I can (holidays, finals, ect). So, I will do these for a little bit trying to increase some strength and the like. If I enjoy them, they might get replaced. I had a hard time doing the BO rows in the DF 5X5 when the weight got heavy last time. We'll see.

 

[Madcow2]

Kind of depends on your ability to powerclean effectively. If you are rowing 225x5 and your best set of 5 in the clean is 145 - that might not be such an effective trade. If you are competent in both lifts it can substitute, though I'd certainly not avoid rowing for your entire career. Rowing and pulling both have a place in a macro plan but within this context and for a given training cycle it is a fair substitute.

 

[cwc73]

ok. I'm actually kind of weak in rowing....it is getting stronger, but it is still pretty weak comparibly. So, I think i will try a cycle with the cleans to help overall.

Seperate question, do you allocate the "squat" while power cleaning? I can clarify if need be.

 

[cwc73]

Just saw something...

These power cleans will be on M/F and I will be deadlifting on Wednesday. I beleive i understood this, but should these cleans be from the hanging position instead of a full clean? I assume they should so that my DL will be favorable, but I almost feel like a hang clean is cheating. Am I wrong?

Thanks everyone and MC

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Madcow, I had a question in regards to power cleans as well. I know that you often say it's best to have a compound push/pull for both planes, vertical and horizontal. The thing is, if cleans sub for rows as in the original 5x5 by Starr, you're not pulling horizontally (as per rows), but if anything, it's vertical.

Is this actually an issue, or does the whole pulling/pushing in the same plane matter? I know when I brought this issue up to Mark Rippetoe, he said it wasn't of any consequence. I figured I'd raise the issue here, to see what you (and others) had to say.

The way I see it, if the planes were important, cleans could better be subbed in on Wednesday, in place of chins, since they're both a vertical pulling movement.

 

[Madcow2]

Madcow, I had a question in regards to power cleans as well. I know that you often say it's best to have a compound push/pull for both planes, vertical and horizontal. The thing is, if cleans sub for rows as in the original 5x5 by Starr, you're not pulling horizontally (as per rows), but if anything, it's vertical.

Is this actually an issue, or does the whole pulling/pushing in the same plane matter? I know when I brought this issue up to Mark Rippetoe, he said it wasn't of any consequence. I figured I'd raise the issue here, to see what you (and others) had to say.

The way I see it, if the planes were important, cleans could better be subbed in on Wednesday, in place of chins, since they're both a vertical pulling movement.

Keep in mind you can't do everything all the time. Your rowing power should be at least reasonably comparable to your bench i.e. not benching 315 and rowing 160. You don't have to row all the time though, it's just nice to make sure there isn't some drastic imbalance. This is why BBers have 'everything and the kitchen sink' in their programs because they are trying to address 10,000 possible things all at once that might go wrong someday in the future (got to hit those side delts don't want concave shoulders), rather than focusing on really getting good at a few things that really matter now. Also, show me a guy who can clean 400 and I'll show you someone who can likely be rowing real heavy within a very short span as he learns the movement so weak lats are likely not in that recipe.

So it's not unimportant in the long term and you should watch out for any kind of glaring imbalance, but providing there's no major problem currently it's not something you need to worry about in a single training cycle or even over the course of a few of them.

 

[cwc73]

so as for my question? or did i just get hijacked?

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Right, can't do everything all at once - but are the horizontal and vertical planes really so important, or is more just a question of equal agonist and antagonistic muscle groups being worked equally (i.e., chest vs. back)? I would think the latter. As you said, someone who cleans a lot will likely row a lot, meaning his back muscles will be well-developed to begin with, negating any chance of imbalance.

 

[Madcow2]

Just saw something...

These power cleans will be on M/F and I will be deadlifting on Wednesday. I beleive i understood this, but should these cleans be from the hanging position instead of a full clean? I assume they should so that my DL will be favorable, but I almost feel like a hang clean is cheating. Am I wrong?

Thanks everyone and MC

It can go either way depending on the person. Generally if someone is power cleaning on M/F, high pulls are a better Wed choice simply because it isn't as hard as the deadlift. If you do hang cleans and don't drop too much under the weight (i.e. hang cleaning still into the power and not full squat clean or very close), and your back is up to it you should be fine as you won't overtax the legs. I don't know it can really go either way - let's say you just aren't strong comparatively in the clean. I'd elect to high pull though to be safe and not spend 3 days pulling from the floor if you aren't used to it.

 

[Madcow2]

Right, can't do everything all at once - but are the horizontal and vertical planes really so important, or is more just a question of equal agonist and antagonistic muscle groups being worked equally (i.e., chest vs. back)? I would think the latter. As you said, someone who cleans a lot will likely row a lot, meaning his back muscles will be well-developed to begin with, negating any chance of imbalance.

It's really just a matter of not having an imbalance. It doesn't matter where the work comes from - people just seem to press a hell of a lot more than they row. That said, I'd spend some time rowing, it's a great exercise and with all the flat pressing people do not only will it balance but the lats play a big role in benching so if this was important I'd spend time on it.

 

[BiggT]

cwc73,

Depending on how strong of a deadlifter you are, you may want to consider what Madcow said and high pull or clean pull on Wed. Then what you can do is alternate Fri between cleans and deadlifts. The reason I say this is because deadlifts are very taxing due to the amount of weight most people can use relative to their other lifts and the workload can really mangle you. So, every other Friday you deadlift. I guess you could do them on Monday too, but for me when I DL on Monday, I feel like I got hit by a train the rest of the week and I just can't pull my head out of my ass in the gym, so Fri gives you the weekend to get over it.

Another thing I do with rowing, at certain times, is I come in Saturdays and do them with some other extra stuff that I just can't fit in my regular workouts.

 

[cwc73]

Ok, all of us are a little confused. I can see that. I want to clean on monday and friday not wednesday which is when I deadlift. My workout goes like this...
Monday:
Squat, Bench, Cleans
Wednesday:
Front squats, DLs, Weighted pullups, and BB Seated OHP
Friday:
Squat Bench Cleans

And I alternate the 5X5 and 1X5 properly too. I was just wondering if with this setup if the cleans should be from the floor. Maybe that is what you guys meant and I am just confused.

 

[araiber]

The power clean is pulling the weight up to your chest. I usually go for the full movement of the clean & (press/jerk), it feels great.

 

[blut wump]

I made that sub on my second run of the 5x5. I still deadlifted on Weds and I was happy but I'm a glutton for punishment. There were times on the Friday, though, when I was finding it hard to focus on being explosive.

 

[Madcow2]

Ok, all of us are a little confused. I can see that. I want to clean on monday and friday not wednesday which is when I deadlift. My workout goes like this...
Monday:
Squat, Bench, Cleans
Wednesday:
Front squats, DLs, Weighted pullups, and BB Seated OHP
Friday:
Squat Bench Cleans

And I alternate the 5X5 and 1X5 properly too. I was just wondering if with this setup if the cleans should be from the floor. Maybe that is what you guys meant and I am just confused.

That is what I meant and it will totally depend upon the person doing it. But high pulls, due to less weight are a safer Wed choice than the deadlift. Hang cleans caught fairly high and not ridden down will be less taxing than full power cleans (caught at equal height).

My advice is to pick something and go see how it turns out.

 

[cwc73]

Well, I'm looking forward to deadlifting again, so I wont change those.

 

[cwc73]

So, if I really want to deadlift, ideally I should do HANG CLEANS on monday and friday to fit in with my schedule which is in post 14? right?

 

[cwc73]

well, i tried both. I did like the full power clean more. Does anyone have a suggestion that would let me do both power cleans(mon and fri) and deadlifts(wednesday)?

 

[bignate73]

just a thought, if you are new to PC's then my suggestion would be to throw them in for general practice for a few weeks to get your form more solid before you get to doing 5x5 with them. i keep my reps low on them as it is, but if you are learning, its not the best idea to make that a main move just yet. as for it being a replacement for rows, I don't really think so. I would put that more in place of a lower body exercise or use it for general conditioning and recovery. its primarily concentric so you won't experience as much soreness and can use it for some good active recovery.