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AP IMPACT: US drug war has met none of its goals

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AP IMPACT: US drug war has met none of its goals - Yahoo! News


MEXICO CITY – After 40 years, the United States' war on drugs has cost $1 trillion and hundreds of thousands of lives, and for what? Drug use is rampant and violence even more brutal and widespread.

Even U.S. drug czar Gil Kerlikowske concedes the strategy hasn't worked.

"In the grand scheme, it has not been successful," Kerlikowske told The Associated Press. "Forty years later, the concern about drugs and drug problems is, if anything, magnified, intensified."

This week President Obama promised to "reduce drug use and the great damage it causes" with a new national policy that he said treats drug use more as a public health issue and focuses on prevention and treatment.

Nevertheless, his administration has increased spending on interdiction and law enforcement to record levels both in dollars and in percentage terms; this year, they account for $10 billion of his $15.5 billion drug-control budget.

Kerlikowske, who coordinates all federal anti-drug policies, says it will take time for the spending to match the rhetoric.

"Nothing happens overnight," he said. "We've never worked the drug problem holistically. We'll arrest the drug dealer, but we leave the addiction."

His predecessor, John P. Walters, takes issue with that.

Walters insists society would be far worse today if there had been no War on Drugs. Drug abuse peaked nationally in 1979 and, despite fluctuations, remains below those levels, he says. Judging the drug war is complicated: Records indicate marijuana and prescription drug abuse are climbing, while cocaine use is way down. Seizures are up, but so is availability.

"To say that all the things that have been done in the war on drugs haven't made any difference is ridiculous," Walters said. "It destroys everything we've done. It's saying all the people involved in law enforcment, treatment and prevention have been wasting their time. It's saying all these people's work is misguided."

___

In 1970, hippies were smoking pot and dropping acid. Soldiers were coming home from Vietnam hooked on heroin. Embattled President Richard M. Nixon seized on a new war he thought he could win.

"This nation faces a major crisis in terms of the increasing use of drugs, particularly among our young people," Nixon said as he signed the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act. The following year, he said: "Public enemy No. 1 in the United States is drug abuse. In order to fight and defeat this enemy, it is necessary to wage a new, all-out offensive."

His first drug-fighting budget was $100 million. Now it's $15.1 billion, 31 times Nixon's amount even when adjusted for inflation.

Using Freedom of Information Act requests, archival records, federal budgets and dozens of interviews with leaders and analysts, the AP tracked where that money went, and found that the United States repeatedly increased budgets for programs that did little to stop the flow of drugs. In 40 years, taxpayers spent more than:

• $20 billion to fight the drug gangs in their home countries. In Colombia, for example, the United States spent more than $6 billion, while coca cultivation increased and trafficking moved to Mexico — and the violence along with it.

• $33 billion in marketing "Just Say No"-style messages to America's youth and other prevention programs. High school students report the same rates of illegal drug use as they did in 1970, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says drug overdoses have "risen steadily" since the early 1970s to more than 20,000 last year.

• $49 billion for law enforcement along America's borders to cut off the flow of illegal drugs. This year, 25 million Americans will snort, swallow, inject and smoke illicit drugs, about 10 million more than in 1970, with the bulk of those drugs imported from Mexico.

• $121 billion to arrest more than 37 million nonviolent drug offenders, about 10 million of them for possession of marijuana. Studies show that jail time tends to increase drug abuse.

• $450 billion to lock those people up in federal prisons alone. Last year, half of all federal prisoners in the U.S. were serving sentences for drug offenses.

At the same time, drug abuse is costing the nation in other ways. The Justice Department estimates the consequences of drug abuse — "an overburdened justice system, a strained health care system, lost productivity, and environmental destruction" — cost the United States $215 billion a year.

Harvard University economist Jeffrey Miron says the only sure thing taxpayers get for more spending on police and soldiers is more homicides.

"Current policy is not having an effect of reducing drug use," Miron said, "but it's costing the public a fortune."

___

From the beginning, lawmakers debated fiercely whether law enforcement — no matter how well funded and well trained — could ever defeat the drug problem.

Then-Alaska Sen. Mike Gravel, who had his doubts, has since watched his worst fears come to pass.

"Look what happened. It's an ongoing tragedy that has cost us a trillion dollars. It has loaded our jails and it has destabilized countries like Mexico and Colombia," he said.

In 1970, proponents said beefed-up law enforcement could effectively seal the southern U.S. border and stop drugs from coming in. Since then, the U.S. used patrols, checkpoints, sniffer dogs, cameras, motion detectors, heat sensors, drone aircraft — and even put up more than 1,000 miles of steel beam, concrete walls and heavy mesh stretching from California to Texas.

None of that has stopped the drugs. The Office of National Drug Control Policy says about 330 tons of cocaine, 20 tons of heroin and 110 tons of methamphetamine are sold in the United States every year — almost all of it brought in across the borders. Even more marijuana is sold, but it's hard to know how much of that is grown domestically, including vast fields run by Mexican drug cartels in U.S. national parks.

The dealers who are caught have overwhelmed justice systems in the United States and elsewhere. U.S. prosecutors declined to file charges in 7,482 drug cases last year, most because they simply didn't have the time. That's about one out of every four drug cases.

The United States has in recent years rounded up thousands of suspected associates of Mexican drug gangs, then turned some of the cases over to local prosecutors who can't make the charges stick for lack of evidence. The suspects are then sometimes released, deported or acquitted. The U.S. Justice Department doesn't even keep track of what happens to all of them.

In Mexico, traffickers exploit a broken justice system. Investigators often fail to collect convincing evidence — and are sometimes assassinated when they do. Confessions are beaten out of suspects by frustrated, underpaid police. Judges who no longer turn a blind eye to such abuse release the suspects in exasperation.

In prison, in the U.S. or Mexico, traffickers continue to operate, ordering assassinations and arranging distribution of their product even from solitary confinement in Texas and California. In Mexico, prisoners can sometimes even buy their way out.

The violence spans Mexico. In Ciudad Juarez, the epicenter of drug violence in Mexico, 2,600 people were killed last year in cartel-related violence, making the city of 1 million across the Rio Grande from El Paso, Texas, one of the world's deadliest. Not a single person was prosecuted for homicide related to organized crime.

And then there's the money.

The $320 billion annual global drug industry now accounts for 1 percent of all commerce on the planet.

A full 10 percent of Mexico's economy is built on drug proceeds — $25 billion smuggled in from the United States every year, of which 25 cents of each $100 smuggled is seized at the border. Thus there's no incentive for the kind of financial reform that could tame the cartels.

"For every drug dealer you put in jail or kill, there's a line up to replace him because the money is just so good," says Walter McCay, who heads the nonprofit Center for Professional Police Certification in Mexico City.

McCay is one of the 13,000 members of Medford, Mass.-based Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, a group of cops, judges, prosecutors, prison wardens and others who want to legalize and regulate all drugs.

A decade ago, no politician who wanted to keep his job would breathe a word about legalization, but a consensus is growing across the country that at least marijuana will someday be regulated and sold like tobacco and alcohol.

California voters decide in November whether to legalize marijuana, and South Dakota will vote this fall on whether to allow medical uses of marijuana, already permitted in California and 13 other states. The Obama administration says it won't target marijuana dispensaries if they comply with state laws.

___

Mexican President Felipe Calderon says if America wants to fix the drug problem, it needs to do something about Americans' unquenching thirst for illegal drugs.

Kerlikowske agrees, and Obama has committed to doing just that.

And yet both countries continue to spend the bulk of their drug budgets on law enforcement rather than treatment and prevention.

"President Obama's newly released drug war budget is essentially the same as Bush's, with roughly twice as much money going to the criminal justice system as to treatment and prevention," said Bill Piper, director of national affairs for the nonprofit Drug Policy Alliance. "This despite Obama's statements on the campaign trail that drug use should be treated as a health issue, not a criminal justice issue."

Obama is requesting a record $15.5 billion for the drug war for 2011, about two thirds of it for law enforcement at the front lines of the battle: police, military and border patrol agents struggling to seize drugs and arrest traffickers and users.

About $5.6 billion would be spent on prevention and treatment.

"For the first time ever, the nation has before it an administration that views the drug issue first and foremost through the lens of the public health mandate," said economist and drug policy expert John Carnevale, who served three administrations and four drug czars. "Yet ... it appears that this historic policy stride has some problems with its supporting budget."

Carnevale said the administration continues to substantially over-allocate funds to areas that research shows are least effective — interdiction and source-country programs — while under-allocating funds for treatment and prevention.

Kerlikowske, who wishes people would stop calling it a "war" on drugs, frequently talks about one of the most valuable tools they've found, in which doctors screen for drug abuse during routine medical examinations. That program would get a mere $7.2 million under Obama's budget.

"People will say that's not enough. They'll say the drug budget hasn't shifted as much as it should have, and granted I don't disagree with that," Kerlikowske said. "We would like to do more in that direction."

Fifteen years ago, when the government began telling doctors to ask their patients about their drug use during routine medical exams, it described the program as one of the most proven ways to intervene early with would-be addicts.

"Nothing happens overnight," Kerlikowske said.

___

Until 100 years ago, drugs were simply a commodity. Then Western cultural shifts made them immoral and deviant, according to London School of Economics professor Fernanda Mena.

Religious movements led the crusades against drugs: In 1904, an Episcopal bishop returning from a mission in the Far East argued for banning opium after observing "the natives' moral degeneration." In 1914, The New York Times reported that cocaine caused blacks to commit "violent crimes," and that it made them resistant to police bullets. In the decades that followed, Mena said, drugs became synonymous with evil.

Nixon drew on those emotions when he pressed for his War on Drugs.

"Narcotics addiction is a problem which afflicts both the body and the soul of America," he said in a special 1971 message to Congress. "It comes quietly into homes and destroys children, it moves into neighborhoods and breaks the fiber of community which makes neighbors. We must try to better understand the confusion and disillusion and despair that bring people, particularly young people, to the use of narcotics and dangerous drugs."

Just a few years later, a young Barack Obama was one of those young users, a teenager smoking pot and trying "a little blow when you could afford it," as he wrote in "Dreams From My Father." When asked during his campaign if he had inhaled the pot, he replied: "That was the point."

So why persist with costly programs that don't work?

Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, sitting down with the AP at the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City, paused for a moment at the question.

"Look," she says, starting slowly. "This is something that is worth fighting for because drug addiction is about fighting for somebody's life, a young child's life, a teenager's life, their ability to be a successful and productive adult.

"If you think about it in those terms, that they are fighting for lives — and in Mexico they are literally fighting for lives as well from the violence standpoint — you realize the stakes are too high to let go."
 
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I have to take the goverment side on this one....Just think how shitty this country would be if they at least didnt try to slow down the drug trade.
 
Good article and staggering figures.

more than 1 gram of cocaine for every person in the US per year, holy crap.

The whole country must be high.










b0und (as a kite)
 
Good article and staggering figures.

more than 1 gram of cocaine for every person in the US per year, holy crap.

The whole country must be high.










b0und (as a kite)

highest concentration is in the greater New Orleans metro area.
 
the main issue i have with it is jails/prisons being clogged with people locked up for drug offenses
 
I'd be all for drug use if non-drug users wouldn't have to pay for the consequences.
 
So much for our tax dollars being spent!When are those nutsacks in washington going to wise up!
 
BTW there is this great "reality" show on Spike called DEA. Follows DEA agents/undercovers busting drug dealers.

Always up the line, up the line. Undercover goes in, busts low guy, then up and up and up. I mean that's pretty obvious stuff but it explains how they get in and whatnot (seems so easy).

Good stuff right there. Actually if I was a criminal I would have learned a lot about their techniques by watching that show.
 
meh i seen no easy solution.
if you legalize it's not like the cartels are gonna dissappear.
they'll still be calling the shots only legal shots now.
and i just don't see how yayo could ever be legal or meth.
 
BTW there is this great "reality" show on Spike called DEA. Follows DEA agents/undercovers busting drug dealers.

Always up the line, up the line. Undercover goes in, busts low guy, then up and up and up. I mean that's pretty obvious stuff but it explains how they get in and whatnot (seems so easy).

Good stuff right there. Actually if I was a criminal I would have learned a lot about their techniques by watching that show.
Ive watched it a few times... whats funny is they blur the rats face but show there house/location and dont change there voices. I'm sure theres guys that watch from there area who know who they are. I wounder if any hits have gone up on these guys!
 
they should impose fines then, and not jail sentences
LOL @ that ever working.

Everyone has a boss, and with the drug trade that boss has fatter pockets than you could ever imagine. Your corner boy will pay the fine, but you gotta sling for him for free for xyz months. It'd be better than jail, but it'd be indentured servitude.
 
I have to take the goverment side on this one....Just think how shitty this country would be if they at least didnt try to slow down the drug trade.
LOL @ that train of thought. Sure they get some huge busts, but it never makes a dent in the grand scheme of things. Junkies will always find another source, cause drugs are never going away. You can either embrace and tax them, or look the other way and hope you can bust them. Only problem is one of those will never work.
 
I get pissed every time the media whine about how drugs are out of control, and how it's causing murders and taxing the law enforcement community to the limits.

JUST LEGALIZE AND TAX RECREATIONAL DRUGS! SELL POT TO ANYONE OVER 18 AT 7-11!!! Simple and easy, and we could pay off the national debt in no time, and we could re-assign the narcotics squad to catch rapists, arsonists, thieves and murderers like they're supposed to have the time to do. I don't know a single person on the whole planet who will suddenly start smoking pot, or snorting coke, or whatever, if the legalize it. No more than anyone ever stopped the habit because it's illegal. Prohibition in the 1920s didn't do a damn thing to stop alcohol, but it created whole new Mafia bootlegger organizations, and caused all kinds of law enforcement headaches and crimes.

I can say all the same about prostitution. Look at Nevada: The most hookers in the country, and the lowest STD rate (per CBS within the past year or so).

Charles

Now did you think you'd ever hear these words from a Bush-supporting, right wing conservative extremist such as me????
 
I get pissed every time the media whine about how drugs are out of control, and how it's causing murders and taxing the law enforcement community to the limits.

JUST LEGALIZE AND TAX RECREATIONAL DRUGS! SELL POT TO ANYONE OVER 18 AT 7-11!!! Simple and easy, and we could pay off the national debt in no time, and we could re-assign the narcotics squad to catch rapists, arsonists, thieves and murderers like they're supposed to have the time to do. I don't know a single person on the whole planet who will suddenly start smoking pot, or snorting coke, or whatever, if the legalize it. No more than anyone ever stopped the habit because it's illegal. Prohibition in the 1920s didn't do a damn thing to stop alcohol, but it created whole new Mafia bootlegger organizations, and caused all kinds of law enforcement headaches and crimes.

I can say all the same about prostitution. Look at Nevada: The most hookers in the country, and the lowest STD rate (per CBS within the past year or so).

Charles

Now did you think you'd ever hear these words from a Bush-supporting, right wing conservative extremist such as me????

Using that logic, why not make the heavier stuff legal too? If someone can responsibly use coke or painkillers, why not dispense them at your local convenience store?

Also, alcohol is still illegal for teens. Why do we waste money on that either. Shouldn't they be able to drink at any age?

I'm feeling particularly contrarian today.

:)
 
Using that logic, why not make the heavier stuff legal too? If someone can responsibly use coke or painkillers, why not dispense them at your local convenience store?

Also, alcohol is still illegal for teens. Why do we waste money on that either. Shouldn't they be able to drink at any age?

I'm feeling particularly contrarian today.

:)

I think there are cases where teens could drink responsibly, and also there are cases where not-so-advanced adults shouldn't drink. Maybe it should be like getting a pilot's license, or a gun license in some states... No age restrictions, as long as you can pass the test proving you understand the ups and downs of drug use, and you qualify.

I think there are SOME drugs, such as Xanax, LSD, and many other hard drugs, which should remain illegal or severely restricted due to very sudden and powerful addictive and brain-damaging qualities. It is my theory that if we legalize pot to start with, then several other drugs that are popular (and steroids of course), the tax revenue from those sales would FAR more than pay for any damage done. You can't fix an idiot by writing a law, and you can't make someone smart by force. If someone is going to smoke crack and die, they're going to smoke crack and die. Period. If someone's not, they're not. I'm not, you sure sound too intelligent to do that either... So not to sound like an advocate of extermination of the derelict citizenry, such could be the result. Maybe if one speed freak drops of a heart attack, his/her speed freak friends will stop using it. If not, they will also drop of heart attacks, and in either scenario after awhile, there won't be speed freaks.

The very problem of smoking (tobacco) and alcohol, is that it's considered acceptable in some law-abiding circles of society, and it's not an instant killer. Smokers can rationalize by saying "I've smoked for 25 years, and I feel fine". Then in their 60s, they start falling apart, and wind up with a big plastic pipe where their throat used to be, and they can't work because they're too sick, and they're a burden on the rest of us. That to me is FAR MORE DAMNING to the lives of people, than to have one person in a group of friends die suddenly and set an example straight up and in the flesh, or what you can expect from drug abuse.

Charles
 
$320B global business

Assume $250B is US (overestimating)

@50% tax rate (absurdly high) = $125B a year.

How does that address trillion dollar annual deficits?

I think there are cases where teens could drink responsibly, and also there are cases where not-so-advanced adults shouldn't drink. Maybe it should be like getting a pilot's license, or a gun license in some states... No age restrictions, as long as you can pass the test proving you understand the ups and downs of drug use, and you qualify.

I think there are SOME drugs, such as Xanax, LSD, and many other hard drugs, which should remain illegal or severely restricted due to very sudden and powerful addictive and brain-damaging qualities. It is my theory that if we legalize pot to start with, then several other drugs that are popular (and steroids of course), the tax revenue from those sales would FAR more than pay for any damage done. You can't fix an idiot by writing a law, and you can't make someone smart by force. If someone is going to smoke crack and die, they're going to smoke crack and die. Period. If someone's not, they're not. I'm not, you sure sound too intelligent to do that either... So not to sound like an advocate of extermination of the derelict citizenry, such could be the result. Maybe if one speed freak drops of a heart attack, his/her speed freak friends will stop using it. If not, they will also drop of heart attacks, and in either scenario after awhile, there won't be speed freaks.

The very problem of smoking (tobacco) and alcohol, is that it's considered acceptable in some law-abiding circles of society, and it's not an instant killer. Smokers can rationalize by saying "I've smoked for 25 years, and I feel fine". Then in their 60s, they start falling apart, and wind up with a big plastic pipe where their throat used to be, and they can't work because they're too sick, and they're a burden on the rest of us. That to me is FAR MORE DAMNING to the lives of people, than to have one person in a group of friends die suddenly and set an example straight up and in the flesh, or what you can expect from drug abuse.

Charles
 
$320B global business

Assume $250B is US (overestimating)

@50% tax rate (absurdly high) = $125B a year.

How does that address trillion dollar annual deficits?

The social and benefits to the US CJ system is what pro-legalization should focus on. But saying there would be a huge tax revenue at least sounds good.
 
The social and benefits to the US CJ system is what pro-legalization should focus on. But saying there would be a huge tax revenue at least sounds good.

I've heard the CJ argument before, but I look at it this way:

Drugs make a great reason to get criminals off the street.

Clearly not everyone who uses drugs is a criminal in other ways (I doubt even half of them are).

But how many habitual criminals also use drugs? I'd bet 85%+ do. (do you know of any habitual/career criminals who have a no-drug use policy?).

And I'd also go one step further: I hear about how clogged our jails are with convicted drug users. How many of them are there solely for minor possession charges? How many of them have a long shopping list of non-drug related crimes? I'd argue that those drug charges are a great way to keep would-be animals out of society.

If LE picks some guy up off the street for suspected robbery and turns-out to be on parole and have a priors sheet seven pages long, being able to bust him for simple possession and send him back to jail seems like a very convenient way to deal with a clogged criminal justice system.

Like I said earlier, I'm feeling contrarian today!

:)

(you could easily win this discussion with a picture of Teh Jacket, but hopefully you won't resort to nukes)
 
Interesting justice by proxy situation. But then we could easily say the vast majority of criminals, who, use drugs, also use/possess handguns. Therefore we must ban handguns. I would say at least the vast number of pot users arent also career criminals and we should at least start with legalization of MJ then gauge the effects on crime. My guess is crime may marginally increase but the massive amount of people who would not be in prison who are otherwise productive members of society would far outweigh the marginal crime increase due to career criminals who woild have normally been locked up for MJ.
 
Interesting justice by proxy situation. But then we could easily say the vast majority of criminals, who, use drugs, also use/possess handguns. Therefore we must ban handguns. I would say at least the vast number of pot users arent also career criminals and we should at least start with legalization of MJ then gauge the effects on crime. My guess is crime may marginally increase but the massive amount of people who would not be in prison who are otherwise productive members of society would far outweigh the marginal crime increase due to career criminals who woild have normally been locked up for MJ.

But I think handguns are a great way to sweep animals off the street too. Since they are often convicted felons, they can't legally own or possess them anyway. Plus, they'll often conceal them and/or use unregistered ones (federal offense, I believe). So a criminal may be able to get out of the robbery charge due to lack of evidence, but if he gets caught with a gun w/a filed-off serial number, he's still going down.

I kinda like the gun laws we have. I just wish we enforced them and had mandatory minimums on them.

:)
 
People seem to tie drug abuse to criminal activity... But on the same token, how many criminals eat hamburgers? Most??? How many hamburger eaters are criminals? I have used substances in the past, which may or may not be legal in all jurisdictions. I own plenty of guns. I also am known to sneak a hamburger down the old pie hole now & then. Am I a criminal? No. Did Hitler use drugs, smoke, or drink? No. Was he a criminal? Well, obviously I don't have to offer any opinion on that one.

I don't believe in using drugs or any other easy-to-prove issue as a means to prosecute criminals for real crimes that the liberal laws make difficult to prosecute. Just call a crime what it is, charge the perpetrator with his crime, and jail him for the crime... Drugs beside the point. Furthermore, plenty of criminals illegally own guns, but many do not every use them in their crimes. I know a few people, who let's just say are well-known upstanding citizens, who happen to own or possess TOTALLY illegal firearms.

You can't tie these things together. The only exception being a case in which a drug addict resorts to stealing or robbing to support his habit. But in that case, he's now guilty of thievery or robbery. Why involve the drug use? Put him in jail for the real crime, and by default he'll be off drugs instantly. Then since he erred, a term of probation or parole would be no alcohol or drugs.

Charles
 
People seem to tie drug abuse to criminal activity... But on the same token, how many criminals eat hamburgers? Most??? How many hamburger eaters are criminals? I have used substances in the past, which may or may not be legal in all jurisdictions. I own plenty of guns. I also am known to sneak a hamburger down the old pie hole now & then. Am I a criminal? No. Did Hitler use drugs, smoke, or drink? No. Was he a criminal? Well, obviously I don't have to offer any opinion on that one.

I don't believe in using drugs or any other easy-to-prove issue as a means to prosecute criminals for real crimes that the liberal laws make difficult to prosecute. Just call a crime what it is, charge the perpetrator with his crime, and jail him for the crime... Drugs beside the point. Furthermore, plenty of criminals illegally own guns, but many do not every use them in their crimes. I know a few people, who let's just say are well-known upstanding citizens, who happen to own or possess TOTALLY illegal firearms.

You can't tie these things together. The only exception being a case in which a drug addict resorts to stealing or robbing to support his habit. But in that case, he's now guilty of thievery or robbery. Why involve the drug use? Put him in jail for the real crime, and by default he'll be off drugs instantly. Then since he erred, a term of probation or parole would be no alcohol or drugs.

Charles

The link between drug use and criminal activity is weak, but the link between criminal activity and drug use is most likely high. Drugs and illegal firearms make it easy to tag criminals and prosecute them in situations where otherwise they may elude prosecution.

And if you want to keep parolees away from drugs, then you'd have to keep the existing CJ infrastructure in place. You'd also need to keep them out of the hands of children too. So legalizing drugs wouldn't save much money (if any).

So if there aren't big revenues in taxes nor big savings in LE, why bother legalizing them? There will be at least some social cost to expanding access -- why expose yourself to the downside if there's no upside?
 
Once you assume legalizing drugs wont bring appreciable tax revenue or keep normally law abiding drug users out of jail then we are left with upholding the principle of freedom of choice, constitution, etc .
Then again our nations track record for that has been specious over the decades.
 
Once you assume legalizing drugs wont bring appreciable tax revenue or keep normally law abiding drug users out of jail then we are left with upholding the principle of freedom of choice, constitution, etc .
Then again our nations track record for that has been specious over the decades.

That's an indefensible argument. We were founded on the principal of freedom and are giving these rights up at an alarming rate.
 
That's an indefensible argument. We were founded on the principal of freedom and are giving these rights up at an alarming rate.


Thats my point. Once the primary reasons for allowing any activity to be legal are stripped down only then are we faced with freedom for freedoms sake. Freedom and personal choice are never the initial primary reasons for legalization of matters of these sorts. And of course thats part of the alarming pattern in this country.
 
the black market is what makes drugs so expensive... drugs being so expensive is what makes crimes... If they were cheap people wouldnt get as desperate and rip people off. Not to mention that people involed wouldnt commit as many crimes on eachother if the cops could be called. if drugs werent illegal they would be cheap and there wouldnt be hardly any profit to be made by producing and or selling them. I think making things illegal is what makes the market for them that keeps the big dogs going. not illegal=low profit=no power= lower crime=less jail=less taxes. and the world lives happily ever after! just kidding but for reals its a money dump that does nothing for us. I bet it does close to nothing as far as consumption goes.
 
Thats my point. Once the primary reasons for allowing any activity to be legal are stripped down only then are we faced with freedom for freedoms sake. Freedom and personal choice are never the initial primary reasons for legalization of matters of these sorts. And of course thats part of the alarming pattern in this country.

/agree

I'm totally down with giving people more liberty.
 
....And my argument is still unanswered: What is the difference between legalizing most recreational drugs, and legalizing alcohol again after prohibition? Every time there's a report on traffic accidents, alcohol is always at the top of the cause list. When was the last time anyone heard of a pot-caused traffic accident? As far as keeping alcohol out of the hands of kids, what a joke.

This is all just another case of freedom versus communism. Give me the chance to be responsible with my own life and body, and if I'm irresponsible, I'll get hurt or die. If that happens, it's my fault; not the government's.

Charles
 
....And my argument is still unanswered: What is the difference between legalizing most recreational drugs, and legalizing alcohol again after prohibition? Every time there's a report on traffic accidents, alcohol is always at the top of the cause list. When was the last time anyone heard of a pot-caused traffic accident? As far as keeping alcohol out of the hands of kids, what a joke.

This is all just another case of freedom versus communism. Give me the chance to be responsible with my own life and body, and if I'm irresponsible, I'll get hurt or die. If that happens, it's my fault; not the government's.

Charles
There is no difference.

I think we've all had this argument (ie When was the last time you heard of a violent stoner? How about a violent drunk?).

In for legalization!

:D
 
BTW there is this great "reality" show on Spike called DEA. Follows DEA agents/undercovers busting drug dealers.

Always up the line, up the line. Undercover goes in, busts low guy, then up and up and up. I mean that's pretty obvious stuff but it explains how they get in and whatnot (seems so easy).

Good stuff right there. Actually if I was a criminal I would have learned a lot about their techniques by watching that show.

Bliques only watch BET and the CW.

But youre right, that show is pretty legit.
 
LOL @ that ever working.

Everyone has a boss, and with the drug trade that boss has fatter pockets than you could ever imagine. Your corner boy will pay the fine, but you gotta sling for him for free for xyz months. It'd be better than jail, but it'd be indentured servitude.

it's not about banning drug use; it's about having the negative externalities of drug use paid for by users and sellers
 
Here's a right-wing nut-jobs point of view of all this drug stuff. For starters, you all have the wrong out look, you all discombobulated!I was in the core from July 1989-July 1993. The drug cartel was out-of-control back then like it is now. My outfit Alpha 19 was sent too Central and South Americas for about 3 months to collaborate with different countries militaries to halt some of the drug movement. (which you don't read in history books) anyway it was a total joke, there was hardly any resistance at all.If the US Gov wanted to wipe out the drug trade they could in 6 months. They don't want too because IMO too many Senators and Congressman have their hand in the cookie jar (kick backs) plus they want all that money flowing through the states. As for legalizing drugs Please! we are the good guys of the world it woundn't look good on our part to the rest of the world. Drugs are here to stay! Too are dismay!
 
Here's a right-wing nut-jobs point of view of all this drug stuff. For starters, you all have the wrong out look, you all discombobulated!I was in the core from July 1989-July 1993. The drug cartel was out-of-control back then like it is now. My outfit Alpha 19 was sent too Central and South Americas for about 3 months to collaborate with different countries militaries to halt some of the drug movement. (which you don't read in history books) anyway it was a total joke, there was hardly any resistance at all.If the US Gov wanted to wipe out the drug trade they could in 6 months. They don't want too because IMO too many Senators and Congressman have their hand in the cookie jar (kick backs) plus they want all that money flowing through the states. As for legalizing drugs Please! we are the good guys of the world it woundn't look good on our part to the rest of the world. Drugs are here to stay! Too are dismay!

*corps
 
Guess that line of thinking has gone tits up big time since the inception of Obama-care?

Well if I am responsible for paying for someone else's health care, shouldn't I have a say in not only what they eat but also what hormones they use and how they exercise?

Maybe we should crack-down on all these joosing, overtraining types. I'm sure they will be costing us a bundle.

:)
 
Well if I am responsible for paying for someone else's health care, shouldn't I have a say in not only what they eat but also what hormones they use and how they exercise?

Maybe we should crack-down on all these joosing, overtraining types. I'm sure they will be costing us a bundle.

:)
I'm sorry again, but kegels are not going to be an Olympic sport no matter how much you try.
 
To change a person and turn them away from drugs you have to show they how they hurt loved ones/ and friends, and how they hurt themselves......

Once they realize that they never go back to the way they did before.

Would not even dream of touching an opiate ever again simply from remembering the evil that followed...and stress is caused others
 
They also save your miserable lives with their corpsman and hospital ships.


Why can't you give a marine a ten minute break?


....you have to retrain them.

LoL..that is rather funny! Why the resentment towards the Marines? all we did was
preserve democracy for 200 years. Don't you think we deserve a little gratitude?
I don't have anything against you bell bottom boys.I actually thought you guys were
pretty heroic, hanging over the side of a ship and painting it when it's at 25 knots is
mighty impressive too me.
 
LoL..that is rather funny! Why the resentment towards the Marines? all we did was
preserve democracy for 200 years. Don't you think we deserve a little gratitude?
I don't have anything against you bell bottom boys.I actually thought you guys were
pretty heroic, hanging over the side of a ship and painting it when it's at 25 knots is
mighty impressive too me.

Don't call me a squid! I'm airborne son. :)

On D-day (Normandy), the largest amphibious assault in history, the Marines were in the rear with the gear playing target practice on mines while the Army did the fighting. I was just making a point about the Navy because after my father's funeral I found his DD214...Corpsman that was awarded two Purple Hearts, Tarawa and Iwo Jima.
 
C'mon ledhead...you have to admit corpsman are valuable...:)


LoL.. I trying to be nice these days, but you have to drag me in! Of course I do!

I was in 1989-1993, We fought in the Gulf War, Bosnia,and the drug cartel, but we really
never had any real injuries or casualties,so we didn't need them that much.However,I'm
sure they saved plenty of lives in other wars. They deserve some gratitude..

O' by-the-way, don't think I forgot about your little joke about the core, airborne right!
101st or 82nd? It don't matter you guys never wanted to dance with the marines anyway. LoL..

Since your bringing up history,here's a little fact about NAM when the NVA got cordance the marines were in the area they humped 15 miles out of their way to avoid them. airborne wasn't real useful in NAM.
 
LoL.. I trying to be nice these days, but you have to drag me in! Of course I do!

I was in 1989-1993, We fought in the Gulf War, Bosnia,and the drug cartel, but we really
never had any real injuries or casualties,so we didn't need them that much.However,I'm
sure they saved plenty of lives in other wars. They deserve some gratitude..

O' by-the-way, don't think I forgot about your little joke about the core, airborne right!
101st or 82nd? It don't matter you guys never wanted to dance with the marines anyway. LoL..

Since your bringing up history,here's a little fact about NAM when the NVA got cordance the marines were in the area they humped 15 miles out of their way to avoid them. airborne wasn't real useful in NAM.

I didn't realize you were an old man like myself. I served in 18th Airborne Corps during Desert Shield/Storm....the first ground troops on the scene. Just sayin', Airborne can be anywhere in the world within 18 hours. :)

As far as Vietnam, the airborne went air mobile and had a major impact on how war is conducted from the air to this day. :)



Also, it must have been embarrassing for the Marines to beg the Army for fuel,parts and ammo during Iraqi Freedom. :)
 
did I ever actually get you to admit an army medic was useful?

I was good friends with my unit's medics....and it wasn't just because they had AC and an IV drip that cures a hangover like nobody's business. You need a decent asvab score unlike combat arms....13B had the second worst asvab score in the Army...just above 11B...
 
Yeah, seen AN a million times can't get enough of that movie! However, they don't mention many choppers got shot down 3 or 4 thousand.
And they they don't mention the marines have the highest body counts in every war and wasn't us that were dead.
Remember TET the marines eliminated the VC forever. I'm a little skeptical about you guys landing first in Irag.. just sayin
I don't know nothing about the today's marines all i know is when I was in we kicked ass and took names.

Yeah, getting old, I'll be 39 in July...Time sure does go by fast that's no longer a cliche..

Later on... going to get the led out..
 
I was good friends with my unit's medics....and it wasn't just because they had AC and an IV drip that cures a hangover like nobody's business. You need a decent asvab score unlike combat arms....13B had the second worst asvab score in the Army...just above 11B...


I was busting stones ...but thanks for noticing my high asvab (96th percentile but who's bragging) :)
 
U.S.A.F. = highest ASVAB requirements

AF Avionics (my AFSC) = highest ASVAB requirements within the U.S.A.F.
 
U.S.A.F. = highest ASVAB requirements

AF Avionics (my AFSC) = highest ASVAB requirements within the U.S.A.F.


I could've had any MOS in any branch EXCEPT those barred to my gender....jus sayin

nice LSAT Java



and I'm ignoring anyone that bitches about any other branch or feels any one branch is more valuable than another unless its normal jokes/ball busting
for instance...any navy I meet is automatically a squid, marines are on navy ships because sheep would be too obvious etc etc...

but seabees are just cool
 
I could've had any MOS in any branch EXCEPT those barred to my gender....jus sayin

nice LSAT Java



and I'm ignoring anyone that bitches about any other branch or feels any one branch is more valuable than another unless its normal jokes/ball busting
for instance...any navy I meet is automatically a squid, marines are on navy ships because sheep would be too obvious etc etc...

but seabees are just cool

I dislike marines because they're marines...:)

Actually, I have a number of friends that are marines and I would settle down in a fighting position and defend anyone that has served...My Rep is on the House Armed Services committee and she knows me because I'm a letter writer and proponent for veteran's issues.... but when I was at reception for BCT I was "shouldered" by a cadre marine coming out of the chow hall and I was Prussian enough to let it go as opposed to kicking his ass...
 
I dislike marines because they're marines...:)

Actually, I have a number of friends that are marines and I would settle down in a fighting position and defend anyone that has served...My Rep is on the House Armed Services committee and she knows me because I'm a letter writer and proponent for veteran's issues.... but when I was at reception for BCT I was "shouldered" by a cadre marine coming out of the chow hall and I was Prussian enough to let it go as opposed to kicking his ass...


Please!!!!!
 
Infrantry, Alpha one nine, 29 palms. Like you almost know what's going on!


so wait...you were stationed at 29 palms?? what?



I AM confused


I was a 68whiskey in a ground ambulance attached to a CSH, im not spilling my unit in EF
 
heh


do we even have a squid on the board? I havent met one yet that I remember
 
so wait...you were stationed at 29 palms?? what?



I AM confused


I was a 68whiskey in a ground ambulance attached to a CSH, im not spilling my unit in EF


That's what you asked right! and I wasn't bragging to ef.I thought that's what you were asking in a sarcastic way by calling me a newb

I'm confused
 
He has posted in the religious forum, a place where java wears sharp elbows, C&C is different and ledhead will pick it up.:D Even a marine can figure that out...


Lol.. You love it! Who's the dame that thinks 2000 posts mean something.LOL... I have 20 some odd years in the gym. Probably longer then she's been alive.
 
Lol.. You love it! Who's the dame that thinks 2000 posts mean something.LOL... I have 20 some odd years in the gym. Probably longer then she's been alive.

Don't take my religious forum posts personal...C&C is just about fun and ball busting.....
 
:) you notice someone got blacked out

he'll learn

I support free speech...even when I consider it offensive. I have never given red to anyone...call me names and hate me but I support your right to hate me. Those Westboro douchebags have the right to preach hatred.....
 
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