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- Thread starter javaguru
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needtogetarmy
CEO of Project Mayhem
I need to start watching his show.
mrplunkey
New member
The road to surfdom episode? I loved it.
He's putting together great shows. It's good research and I like his guests. I DVR it every week.
I'd be a hardcore libertarian if we'd decouple all the subsidies that are already in place. As much as I respect people who live socially conservative lifestyles, that isn't something that should be imposed on other people. But right now, if you're going to charge one person for another person's behavior, why shouldn't the payer get some voice in the payee's life? There are no free lunches.
javaguru
Banned
Yep...
I'm not a hardcore Libertarian in the sense that police, fire and national defense should be outsourced but the less government intrusion the better. If you have Netflix, I would suggest watching the documentary King Corn which deals with agricultural subsidies....I grew up in farm country when the government paid farmers to not plant crops. In the late 1970's the Carter admin decided to pay farmers to produce corn which leads us to high fructose corn syrup and cheap food....which leads us to the blight of plenty increasing healthcare costs via obesity.
mrplunkey
New member
I'd like to watch that sometime.
I've spent a few years in corn ethanol (biofuels) on the design, construction and operation side. We were invited to a private briefing by ORNL on cap-and-trade, biofuels, carbon offset programs etc. etc. last week. Here were the big points:
1) Energy production and agriculture are inextricably linked via carbon.
2) At first it seems like feedstocks for biofuels are the major issue (along with the fertilizers and fossil fuels necessary for their production), but that's not the big problem.
3) The big problem on a global scale is repurposed land and redirected agricultural efforts.
Long story short, it creates an inevitable path where agricultural processes and products are rolled-into the cap-and-trade energy system.
I'm about to go to bed tonight, but I'll post an email exchange from the Associate Laboratory Director at a National Laboratory (DOE Facility) tomorrow. It's really sobering to realize at least the Europeans will be linking their energy and food sectors together at some point.
javaguru
Banned
The cliff notes from the movie, but for federal subsidies a farmer cannot make a profit growing corn.
T
the_clockwork
Guest
jesus fucking libertarism1?!?!?!?!
are you just destined to prove everything wrong?
libertarism is fucking capitalism
are you just destined to prove everything wrong?
libertarism is fucking capitalism
javaguru
Banned
Define capitalism....what we have isn't capitalism....Otherwise the banks would have failed and not been bailed out by their government puppets...Obama got much more wall street money than McCain...massive amounts. Obama is a Wall Street house negro...he makes speeches against them but takes their money and protects them.
T
the_clockwork
Guest
1... what we have isn't libertarianism NOR is it capitalism... is it favored in that direction? YES
2... libertarianism, correct me if I'm wrong, is basically supporting free trade? Free trade is basically capitalism correct?
javaguru
Banned
Nope, it's about limited government and personal freedom. It isn't an economic system. True capitalism would have no restraints on business...none. Government has a role, providing a basic legal structure that normalizes business practices and provides the most basic protections for the citizenry...that's the point of government.
mrplunkey
New member
One of the main messages is that with out of control spending comes inevitable tax increases which essentially send us back to medieval surf model.
Then he looked at sources of out of control spending including state and federal unions.
mrplunkey
New member
Libertarian is (to me):
1) Extreme political conservatism -- limiting the power and reach of government in almost every aspect. Most libertarians object to anything beyond protecting our borders and maintaining order in the streets.
2) Extreme fiscal conservatism -- minimize taxes, spending and government intervention in private enterprise.
3) No social conservatism -- this is what throws people about Libertarians. Many (if not most) support the legalization of drugs, abortions and many other issues social conservatives oppose. Even a deeply religious Libertarian wouldn't want to see their views mandated or even subsidized by other people.
needtogetarmy
CEO of Project Mayhem
Very good insight on libertarians. #3 has caught me the wrath of many Republicans. Especially when it comes to my views on gay marriage (it is a state issue) and abortion (I am pro-abortion and pro-choice). Republicans love small government and no government intrusion...except when it comes to a few core issues like gay marriage and abortion. Then they want the government to take control (as long as it conforms to their ideology).
I do have issues with libertarians and their views relating to the role of the government. This latest meltdown is the perfect example of when the government must intervene. I supported a bailout (I must say not THE bailout Obama passed). Libertarians need to recognize that the government is a part of the economy, not an exogenous force that only messes things up.
I am a man without a political party.
mrplunkey
New member
I'd push those social issues to the state level as well. I'm pro-choice, but still want a little bit of sanity added to our existing system (i.e. 13 year old girls dating 22 year old guys getting abortions without parental notification).
I was anti-bailout. If the government absolutely had to intervene, they still should have done it via a structured bankruptcy. That would have allowed all these contracts to be negotiated by bankruptcy judges. For example, why should AIG pay-out 100% of its contracted insurance value? If Goldman was a part of this crisis, let them take $0.80 on the dollar instead. That would clean-up the bonus messes too, as those contracts would be subject to renegotiation.
In general, I don't believe the government should be completely out of businesses' affairs, but they should only enter under the most compelling circumstances. For example, the government in the mortgage business should be absolutely forbidden. Now if the government wants to make and enforce anti-collusion laws, that makes more sense.
mrplunkey
New member
It's ok -- we'll all be watching "Owww My balls" soon enough anyway.
javaguru
Banned
javaguru
Banned
I posted the episode for you.
Gnarly dude.
mrplunkey
New member
Like, totally bitchin' catch dude. Sweet.
mrplunkey
New member
Exactly. People just don't know their rights.
Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, housing, health care, doritos, cable TV, Internet service, retirement savings, Oreos, online porn, beer, transportation, lottery tickets, education, American Idol, medical marijuana, iPods, Domino's pizza, HoverChairs, Petrone, citizenship, grills, mortgages and trans-fat free hotdogs.
It's all right there in the constitution -- we just need to do a better job of educating the younger generation about their God-given rights.
Actually it's only 6.97x.
mrplunkey
New member
Yeah but at this point we're only haggling numbers.
What is a fair portion for you to give to me? We don't have to be equal, but what's reasonable? 35%? 40%?
I'm very fair-minded. I'd think we can meet in the middle somewhere on this issue.
b0und
New member
I think ultra-libertarians want to turn the USA into a third world shit hole. No public education, health care, social security = a place you really don't want to live, even if you have money. Why do you think all the people who can afford it get out of those places?
b0und (I prefer living in a 1st world country, thanks)
b0und (I prefer living in a 1st world country, thanks)
javaguru
Banned
Well, on average private/charter schools spend half as much per pupil as public schools and charter/private school students perform better on standardized exams.
It takes 3-5 days for the US Postal Service to deliver a first class letter roughly 300 miles from my mother. In the same amount of time I can get 50 pounds of protein powder delivered from the East or West Coast by UPS...I live in Ohio.
On average an American private sector worker makes 40k a year while a federal employee averages 70+k per year with great benefits as well as getting all those extra holidays and a lavish pension.
Government services are expensive and inefficient because they are unionized and aren't subjected to the same pressures to control costs as a private business; That's the Libertarian argument.
javaguru
Banned
Emerging from WWI the U.S. didn't have 2/3 of those and was the rising world power. The Soviet Union along with the Eastern Block had 3/3 and we all know how that turned out.
Emerging from WWI the U.S. didn't have 2/3 of those and was the rising world power. The Soviet Union along with the Eastern Block had 3/3 and we all know how that turned out.
There was an "Eastern Block" emerging from WWI????????
javaguru
Banned
Two separate and distinct sentences indicating two different ideas. My point is that government provided services don't dictate the quality of life for the population. However, if you want to bring up the failed socialist policies emerging out of WWI I'm more than happy to engage. The Soviet union and Stalin with their socialist ideology...the socialist Nazis...as well as the communist movements gaining popularity in most countries....the eugenics movement in the U.S. that inspired Hitler and German eugenics laws.
Why don't you ask some of the recipients of these services, in countries that provide them, if their quality of life is enhanced by them?
You seem to be under some bizarre mistaken impression that any support for gov't social services represents a desire to equalize outcome.
javaguru
Banned
People getting "free money" from the government will always be positive...be they people on social security or wealthy bank executives. The money isn't free and entitlements are always popular with the unwashed masses. If they pay for it then it's fine...the average medicare patient pays a dollar for $2=3$ dollars in services that are Ponzied out to the next generation. Yes, Social Security and Medicare are giant ponzi schemes.....
mrplunkey
New member
My quality of life would be improved by you giving me 35% of your karma. I'd sure like it. I'd like 40% even more.
mrplunkey
New member
Not at all. Equality of outcome would be us having to settle-up and have the exact karma every day forever.
What I'm talking about is equal opportunity. You have 7x my karma. You've reached a point by which I can never reasonably expect to catch up. Giving me only 35% to 40% of your karma would place us on a more equal footing and allow me to more effectively participate in this board. You are part of a larger board community and need to pay your fair share. An Internet message board with a single member is useless anyway, so the overall health and well-being of this site serves your interest as well.
It's time to see your belief system in action. When will I be getting my 35%-40% of your karma?
Oh sweetness! Who wants land in Africa? I've already got 11 acres in Bumfuck, South Carolina. Just pass along some of that Caucasian K to yours truly. I will be in a back alley shooting up e-crack rocks and pounding Colt 45s by Thursday.
mrplunkey
New member
I need some of your karma too. Are you doing the 35% or 40% plan?
I'm tired of being opressed by you and Mr. dB. You'd think you guys would be appreciative of me offering the Bush tax cut rate of 35%. I'd like a "thank you" along with that karma transfer.
this thread is depressing me
I think I need medication because of it, and I want you to pay for it.
mrplunkey
New member
It's repressed guilt for knowing there are karma have-nots like me and filthy karma rich like you.
I bet if you gave me 35%-40% to, you'd feel so great about giving me equal opportunity that your depression would subside.
I'm trying to help you here. Please include a "thank you" in your karma gift to me.
You'll have to wait a bit. Trickle down economics has to hit me before it gets to you.
If this is the kind of reasoning you use to formulate your political views, then it's no wonder you're always wrong.
mrplunkey
New member
You'll have to wait a bit. Trickle down economics has to hit me before it gets to you.
You mean-spirited conservatives always say that shit. It's time to give me some of your stuff immediately.
mrplunkey
New member
It's not my fault that you've run out of room to argue when one of your tried-and-true justifications for redistribution gets applied to you.
I'm still waiting for that karma transfer from you. It's not fair that your voice on EF should be 7x louder than mine simply because you fell into a larger pool of karma than I did.
mrplunkey
New member
Holy shit bor. They owe you some too.
Lotsa greedy types all up in this thread. If they cling to their green dots so tightly, I wonder how tightly they hold on to their cash.
We're karma oppressed. It's time for some EF justice.
I pay my taxes just like everybody else. Take up your beef with Admin. Your demand for direct payments for redistribution make about as much sense as a social security pensioner demanding direct payments from Warren Buffet.
mrplunkey
New member
Ahhh... the good old Nuremberg defense.
I'm sure the executives at AIG and Bear Stearns were playing within the rules at the time as well.
Let's see some personal responsibility here. Help SD and me out. You can lead the way and show the rest of us how to be part of the solution -- not part of the problem.
Funny how everybody rationalizes whatever it takes to hold onto their shit, isn't it?
mrplunkey
New member
Well, recently it would be a 5.4% surtax on high-wealth individuals that would be used to fund health care for the uninsured.
You are welcome to pay your surtax through an admin if you'd like. Would that make you feel better if we ran it through EF? Or does mixing the karma into a pot somehow make it legitimate? Maybe you and dial tone can pool 10-12 million karma together and then split it back out between me and superdave.
Still not analogous in any way to your specious demands. Get off it and find another idee fixe to dwell upon for a while, you're getting tedious.
mrplunkey
New member
Nice move dodging the simple solution I posted for you just below the text you chose to comment on.
Pool a few million karma with Dial Tone then split it among superdave and me. I realize he has far less than me, so it would be fair to give him more than I get. Either way, I've got a few million coming and he's got even more than that.
I like this progressive thinking. It means you give me free stuff. Surely you're not mean-spirited enough to not help SD and me. You're not going all rugged individualist on me, are you?
mrplunkey
New member
Now you know how I feel when someone whines over mean old Bush's tax cuts for the rich.
You're holding out on silly green dots. I can't imagine how tightly you hold on to your cash.
mrplunkey
New member
There's nothing analogous when you've got the stuff and don't want to give it to someone else. Strangely enough, people always come-up with a reason.
javaguru
Banned
Stossel made a good point tonight, government funded and government run are two different things. Government funded education performs well, government run education sucks.
mrplunkey
New member
The mess they made in DC is appalling. I didn't realize the voucher program Barry cancelled right after becoming president was only given 50% of the funding a normal DC school receives. It's sad when they start with 50% of your funding level and still kick your butt.
Let the money follow the student. Even if the voucher can't be spent on private schools initially, I could see a phase-in period where the voucher could be used over a geography that grows a modest amount each year.
javaguru
Banned
Detroit schools spend almost as much as D.C. and are pathetic with graduation rates....not even test scores.
PICK3
New member
javaguru
Banned
He made the same point in his "Stupid in America" expose with South Carolina schools. He showed am eighteen year old kid that could barely read but made tremendous progress at a Sylvan learning center.
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