No PCT - Continuous 2 week on/off cycling

[Discreet User]

Question
What are your thoughts on the following program:
Weeks
1 - 2 Test Prop 600mg/wk + Aromasin 12.5mg ED.
3 - 4 Aromasin 12.5mg ED (more or less as necessary).
5 - 6 Test Prop 600mg/wk + Aromasin 12.5mg ED.
7 - 8 Aromasin 12.5mg ED.
9 - 10 Test Prop 600mg/wk + Aromasin 12.5mg ED.
11 - 12 Aromasin 12.5mg ED.
13 - 14 Test Prop 600mg/wk + Aromasin 12.5mg ED.

Continue this 2 week on 2 week off program for a total of 14 weeks.
Finish with PCT.

My thoughts are that this routine will allow for a relatively long 14-week "cycle" that is somewhat less suppressive than a traditional 10 or 12 week Test Cypionate cycle.

*Title says "no PCT," because if this works out well, I'd be open to doing this for extended periods only coming off & doing a PCT once every 6-months.

Background
Under doctor supervision with blood tests, have been cycling for ~3 years.
Have always followed the time on = time off rule.
Experience with both short and long ester TRT products.
26 years old.
Body stats are about where I would like them to be so won't list here.
These days I'm happy running testosterone cycles of only 300mg/wk.

Goals
Continue adding lean muscle while keeping body fat at a healthy level.
This is a lifelong endeavor; following the slow and steady approach.
Need to keep HPTA function healthy.

 

[stevesmi]

all you are doing here is yo-yo'ing your blood levels. when you come off for 2 weeks you aren't really coming off totally.. the prop will still be in your system those 2 weeks albeit they would drop off quickly then you would go back on after an injection and they would shoot back up again.

 

[Jbranken]

There's no way this will avoid suppression and the end result wouldn't be nearly as desirable as if you were to just cycle and pct correctly. There's no need to do anything heroic, just do the tried and true method if you want results.

 

[Discreet User]

Thanks for the replies, gentlemen. What I'm really after is a blast & cruise program that doesn't do permanent damage. I want to have my cake and eat it too!

Short cycles with short esters are the way to go, but we can't deny that long cycles are more convenient...

 

[Discreet User]

all you are doing here is yo-yo'ing your blood levels. when you come off for 2 weeks you aren't really coming off totally.. the prop will still be in your system those 2 weeks albeit they would drop off quickly then you would go back on after an injection and they would shoot back up again.

Stevesmi, good to see you're still around, bro!

We joined around the same time & it looks like we're now antiques around here.

 

[burnthiscorpse]

Thanks for the replies, gentlemen. What I'm really after is a blast & cruise program that doesn't do permanent damage. I want to have my cake and eat it too!

Short cycles with short esters are the way to go, but we can't deny that long cycles are more convenient...

Wtf....this is an easy concept.... TRT with 6-8 week short ester cycles. As long as you go at least 8 weeks between cycles your blood levels should stabilize. I would imagine the yo-yo effect of 2 weeks on and off would do more actual health damage.

 

[ceo]

I'd do no less than probably 6-8 weeks. Depends also on how you train. If you were doing a high intensity style of training where you required a de-load every 6-8 weeks, blasting and cruising in that manner would be beneficial.

But, your post is confusing. You say you have been cycling for 3 years under Dr. supervision with TRT products? So are you on TRT or not? Because you also say you want to run a PCT. If you are on TRT, you're on. Why try to recover a HPTA that was in need of TRT anyway?

I still wouldn't go less than 6-8 weeks. Or try some of the ALR cycles, but even with his phase cycling you're looking at 8 weeks max.

 

[ceo]

lol. I wrote that post around 7pm (PDT), after steve's post. Had I not gotten distracted (kids) and posted it, it wouldn't have looked like I just reposted what others said.

 

[UA_Iron]

I'd run test suspension or an oral that clears your system even faster than prop if I were going to do something like this.

 

[Zinergy]

This is a waste and you'll be just as suppressed.

 

[dylangemelli]

I think you have the all the answers that you need and I hope you clearly see how poor of an idea this is... I understand what you are trying and/or wanting to do here but it is definitely not anything you should try to do...

 

[stevesmi]

Thanks for the replies, gentlemen. What I'm really after is a blast & cruise program that doesn't do permanent damage. I want to have my cake and eat it too!

Short cycles with short esters are the way to go, but we can't deny that long cycles are more convenient...

yeah bro we are both old on here now.. some guys stick around but most move on.. this thing isn't for everyone.

when you say you won't do damage do you mean to your HPTA? or do you mean to your lipids?

with the HPTA this set up you would still send your LH to 0 anyway.. think about why. even a small amount of the prop left in your system would still suppress you. so even though during the end of that 2 weeks off you don't have much of any prop left to make a difference with you physically but you have ample amounts to STILL suppress you. see what the problem is? so if you are gonna suppress yourself might as well run it where it would benefit you

as far as lipids because you will never have a large amount in your system it will probably help you out but not sure how the yo-yo effects would have your body react .. it just sounds like here you running a short ester and injecting not enough.. i'm sure a lot of newbs out there do this anyway by their own fault. but again if you run it the right way and run the support supps etc lipids isn't gonna be a problem in most cases. so again might as well run it the right way

 

[NegroPops]

Well.. I think with that plan you are bordering the line of not becoming completely shut down, while at the same time.. never becoming fully recovered. If you do this for an extended period of time.. it will defeat the entire purpose.. because you will reach the point of total shut down.

 

[rustilldown]

I think you should try it with bloodwork at a few crucial times during this science experiment. For example around week 8 near the end of the 2 week "off" period have a full panel run to see what your looking at. Same with the end of say week 16. (2 weeks past last prop shot) have blood drawn again. Either way after the 14 weeks run a serious pct and you will be fine. Personally , this is how new ideas are discovered and created. Through trial and error. I dont see you doing any long term harm this way . Just ensure to have bloodwork drawn to follow your progress and run a full pct at the end like I said.
Hope I don't get flamed, but its an interesting concept even if it doesn't work.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I had to laugh at this one.

The 2 week on, 2 week off concept was a rip off by Bill Roberts of my short cycle method. It's amazing how these things build credence and after a while are regarded as viable. it's complete nonsense. You can not recover in two weeks. Using short esters will not matter.

This method will just continually shut you down, plus it will yo yo blood levels plus the gains will be marginal. It's the worst possible choice in every way.

 

[stevesmi]

^^^ its like the dbol bridge idea. doesn't matter how low a dose you use its still gonna suppress.. there is no fooling the body, its smarter than people think

if you are gonna bridge with a hormone might as well just throw in the towel and just stay on and call it what it is and stop trying to fool the body

there just 'aint as they say in the south' any trick around it, if there was then life would be simple

 

[NegroPops]

dbol at a low dose, taken first thing in the morning, does not suppress you.

 

[stevesmi]

dbol at a low dose, taken first thing in the morning, does not suppress you.

suppression means your LH drops.. it doesn't have anything to do with your test levels.

the reason people believe it doesn't 'suppress' is because they only look at the T levels when bloods are done. in those that did correct bloodwork they saw their LH levels tank. so yes low dose dbol most certainley suppresses.

yes taking dbol with boost your T levels or atleast keep them mainline.. so people assume that means they aren't 'suppressed' .. this is where guys get fooled into believing the fantasy

hope that makes sense cause a lot of guys don't understand what suppression means

 

[stevesmi]

basically I will sum it up like this... you could run a low amount of testosterone.. a HRT amount lets say 150mg a week or so.. your T levels would stay in range and your LH would go down obviously.. so are they suppressed in this instance? the answer is absolutely YES they are.. no different than running low dose dbol.. if you upped the dbol to lets say 50 or 75mg a day your T levels would shoot through the roof, if you kept them low at 10mg a day it would stay at a baseline number. THIS is where the confusion stems

 

[-SD-]

basically I will sum it up like this... you could run a low amount of testosterone.. a HRT amount lets say 150mg a week or so.. your T levels would stay in range and your LH would go down obviously.. so are they suppressed in this instance? the answer is absolutely YES they are.. no different than running low dose dbol.. if you upped the dbol to lets say 50 or 75mg a day your T levels would shoot through the roof, if you kept them low at 10mg a day it would stay at a baseline number. THIS is where the confusion stems

I do almost this exact same thing except at 125mg/wk for HRT. My LH and FSH is tanked but my T levels are at the top end of normal.

 

[rustilldown]

Well these above posters have much more knowledge than I, and I would advise you listen to them then, I guess it's a bad idea no point in testing it in the name of science as science has spoken already

 

[stevesmi]

I do almost this exact same thing except at 125mg/wk for HRT. My LH and FSH is tanked but my T levels are at the top end of normal.

thats all the low dose dbol theory is.. you are just running a HRT dose of a AAS.

 

[-SD-]

thats all the low dose dbol theory is.. you are just running a HRT dose of a AAS.

yea no such thing as a bridge that doesnt suppress if you use any form of AAS

 

[zwhit]

I'm not sure what the physical repercussions would be but I'm sure I don't want any part of the mental ups and downs that kind of cycling would cause

 

[NegroPops]

I will rephrase what I said..

a low dose of dbol taken in the morning does not effect LH.

 

[RickRock13]

I will rephrase what I said..

a low dose of dbol taken in the morning does not effect LH.

False. Any exogenous hormones will lower luitinizing hormone.

What Steve said in his posts is spot on

 

[stevesmi]

if dbol doesn't reduce LH, then it also means its either fake.. or it wouldn't do a thing for you either. you can't have your pie, and eat it too. (notice the connotation I used there lol)

what makes dbol special anyway? would that work on var, winny or any other oral as well?

Fonz came up with this years ago and his basis for it is that you are taking the dbol in the morning to 'trick the body' .. but there is no such thing as tricking the body.. if there was then life would be simple. the body will outsmart you. i read his whole thesis behind it and its ridiculous bro-science.. he is saying your LH will be effected but over the course of the bridge the LH will rebound. there is no evidence that such a thing could ever happen unless like i said you were to take fake dbol.. there were 2 guys on here a couple years ago who tested this out with bloods and it didn't work out too well for them.

bridging with dbol at a low dose is fine for those who don't want to come off and just want to cruise, but lets not pretend it wouldn't suppress you. that is just not possible and its unproven or everyone would be doing it.. doctors would prescribe dbol at low doses for HRT and tell you to take it in the AM the same way instead of giving guys testosterone and it would be awesome cause it would keep your nuts plump the whole way and your LH and FSH wouldn't get affected.

 

[NegroPops]

5-10 mg of dbol taken in the morning will not reduce LH.

i stand by my statement.

although.. i would never choose to go this route.

 

[UA_Iron]

if dbol doesn't reduce LH, then it also means its either fake.. or it wouldn't do a thing for you either. you can't have your pie, and eat it too. (notice the connotation I used there lol)

what makes dbol special anyway? would that work on var, winny or any other oral as well?

Fonz came up with this years ago and his basis for it is that you are taking the dbol in the morning to 'trick the body' .. but there is no such thing as tricking the body.. if there was then life would be simple. the body will outsmart you. i read his whole thesis behind it and its ridiculous bro-science.. he is saying your LH will be effected but over the course of the bridge the LH will rebound. there is no evidence that such a thing could ever happen unless like i said you were to take fake dbol.. there were 2 guys on here a couple years ago who tested this out with bloods and it didn't work out too well for them.

bridging with dbol at a low dose is fine for those who don't want to come off and just want to cruise, but lets not pretend it wouldn't suppress you. that is just not possible and its unproven or everyone would be doing it.. doctors would prescribe dbol at low doses for HRT and tell you to take it in the AM the same way instead of giving guys testosterone and it would be awesome cause it would keep your nuts plump the whole way and your LH and FSH wouldn't get affected.

FONZ didn't come up with anything novel really, he just pushed primo and stood in the mirror flexing his abs.

ULTER was a champion of the morning dbol bridge. He knew his stuff. Doesn't mean that it isn't suppressive - I think that has yet to be determined.

If you're trying to recover then the AM dbol is probably a bad idea. If you're bridging, it's probably ok.

Testimonials of the dbol used during PCT etc are widely available on this board:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/p...py/my-pct-dbol-after-coulpe-years-498517.html

 

[stevesmi]

^^^ all that guy said was "his nuts came back and he has a sex drive" and Ulter chimed in that his post proved AM dbol works and it helps prevent a pct crash.. no shit!! i'm sure using AAS in your pct is gonna make you feel great and prevent a crash cause you aren't really coming off! lol

he never posted any bloodwork proving anything. i don't doubt he feels great on that bridge, but the arguement is that dbol isn't suppressive at low doses.

that whole thread is hilarious. the guy on page 8 says "i did this and had my best pct ever!, no i didn't get bloodwork done but I could feel myself recover" ... wow this site back then was pathetic. nobody in that entire thread was willing to spend $50 to get bloodwork done to prove this theory. they just parroted this idea back and forth and said they would try it and then post later on. and then you never heard from them again

 

[Nelson Montana]

dbol at a low dose, taken first thing in the morning, does not suppress you.

That's a cross between internet guru bullshit and wishful thinking. It sure as hell will.

 

[Nelson Montana]

FONZ didn't come up with anything novel really, he just pushed primo and stood in the mirror flexing his abs.

ULTER was a champion of the morning dbol bridge. He knew his stuff. Doesn't mean that it isn't suppressive - I think that has yet to be determined.

If you're trying to recover then the AM dbol is probably a bad idea. If you're bridging, it's probably ok.

Testimonials of the dbol used during PCT etc are widely available on this board:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/p...py/my-pct-dbol-after-coulpe-years-498517.html

More hilarity. These guys were just stealing theories from other idiots. Which makes them doubly full of shit.

 

[stevesmi]

i wasn't around back in those days when those guys were here but from the pics I have seen of Ulter I doubt I would ever take his advice on anything short of maybe whiffleboard or ping pong

 

[Discreet User]

I think you should try it with bloodwork at a few crucial times during this science experiment. For example around week 8 near the end of the 2 week "off" period have a full panel run to see what your looking at. Same with the end of say week 16. (2 weeks past last prop shot) have blood drawn again. Either way after the 14 weeks run a serious pct and you will be fine. Personally , this is how new ideas are discovered and created. Through trial and error. I dont see you doing any long term harm this way . Just ensure to have bloodwork drawn to follow your progress and run a full pct at the end like I said.
Hope I don't get flamed, but its an interesting concept even if it doesn't work.

Thanks, rustilldown.
I agree.
Safe, responsible, experimentation can lead to new discoveries.

 

[Discreet User]

I'm not sure what the physical repercussions would be but I'm sure I don't want any part of the mental ups and downs that kind of cycling would cause

That's an interesting point, zwhit.
I've considered this for months and have reached the opposite conclusion.
I don't believe there would be much of a "down," because you're only off for 14-days at a time.

Keep in mind ancillaries, such as aromasin & HCG will be used as well.

 

[burnthiscorpse]

That's an interesting point, zwhit.
I've considered this for months and have reached the opposite conclusion.
I don't believe there would be much of a "down," because you're only off for 14-days at a time.

Keep in mind ancillaries, such as aromasin & HCG will be used as well.

its still going go be a roller coaster on your endocrine system. whether you literally "feel" it or not. if it were a great idea believe me....people would be doing it already. unless you can get bloods done every few weeks you wont be able to tell. to many guys base things they do on how they feel. when in reality they dont know.what is.going on inside their body which can be way worse.

 

[Discreet User]

Gentlemen,
It appears the consensus is that LH will not rebound much within the two-week "off period."

Thoughts on the effect of Human Menopausal Gonadotropin (HMG) [(not HCG)] on LH under these circumstances?

 

[Discreet User]

its still going go be a roller coaster on your endocrine system. whether you literally "feel" it or not. if it were a great idea believe me....people would be doing it already. unless you can get bloods done every few weeks you wont be able to tell. to many guys base things they do on how they feel. when in reality they dont know.what is.going on inside their body which can be way worse.

Do you think bloods once per month would be sufficient?
I once ran tests monthly for a 6-month period.
It was very interesting observing the changes pre, during, and post cycle.
I'm talking full labs down to LH, DHT, TSH, IGF-1, you name it...

 

[burnthiscorpse]

Do you think bloods once per month would be sufficient?
I once ran tests monthly for a 6-month period.
It was very interesting observing the changes pre, during, and post cycle.
I'm talking full labs down to LH, DHT, TSH, IGF-1, you name it...

Once a month yes, as long as you hit different times ie: end of two weeks off, on, ect.

TSH is a useless test BTW. it does not show a true representation of thyroid function. If you want to do that you must get free T3, T4, reverse T3 and a few others. I live with a thyroid guru...that is one area I know well.

You will also have a roller coaster on your lipids. OR...they may not roller coaster and just keep going into the no no zone. Your RBC, hematocrit, hemoglobin is likely not to rebound in a two week off period and just keep rising. This is very bad. Stressful to the heart ect...
All in all this whole thing is a very bad idea. Not trying to sound like a dick, just expressing my opinion based on how I see my own blood work change.

Why not use no ester injectables and orals and do 4 week cycles with 6 week breaks between? One of our old brothers who is no longer a member used to do 3 week blasts of test and tren suspension. He was unbelievably massive. BUT...he had the genetics and diet to go with that too.

 

[stevesmi]

Gentlemen,
It appears the consensus is that LH will not rebound much within the two-week "off period."

Thoughts on the effect of Human Menopausal Gonadotropin (HMG) [(not HCG)] on LH under these circumstances?

it would wreck your LH and boost your total test. HMG also mimics LH the same was hcg does

 

[Jack steel]

all you are doing here is yo-yo'ing your blood levels. when you come off for 2 weeks you aren't really coming off totally.. the prop will still be in your system those 2 weeks albeit they would drop off quickly then you would go back on after an injection and they would shoot back up again.

Perhaps with an oral you could do this but I would bet at some point you're natty test would start to be effected.

 

[Kipper821]

How long would it tk to restore natural T after 2 years of androgel 1.62 2 pumps a day? And how do i do that


Sent from my iPhone using EliteFitness.com - Anabolic Steroids, Bodybuilding

 

[stevesmi]

wow nice bump bro.

interesting the guy who was parroting his stupid dbol bridge theory on here turned out to be a scammer who ripped off people for thousands.