Deca and avoiding Progesterone / Estrogen Gyno.

[tombphilips]

I have read conflicting materials on Deca gyno.

1. It is well accepted that Deca converts to Progesterone and aromatize inhibitors will not help.
2. It is well accepted that Deca converts to Estrogen through aromatize, but at a very low amount.


What I am not sure about is what is going to cause gyno.

1. Some have suggested that the breast has progesterone receptors. The presence of the female hormone progesterone will stimulate the male breast to cause gyno.
a. In this camp some suggest that Clomid or Nolvedex will bind to these receptors and save the breast from progesterone.
b. Others in this camp say that the progesterone receptors are unaffected by Clomid/Nolvedex so they are useless in combating progesterone.

2. Some suggest that the presence of progesterone somehow up regulates the estrogen receptors. Then the estrogen causes gyno just like test. Would the estrogen from Deca be enough for this to cause gyno? (300mg/week)? If group 2 is correct it seems to me that Deca must produce enough estrogen to do this to some at doses around 600mg/week Deca only (because I know people have claimed to get gyno from Deca only cycle, although this seems to be the exception) . Clomid/Nolvedex would be of some use here, but with up regulated estrogen receptors perhaps the amounts typically taken are insufficient. *

* BigCat suggested a dosing scheme for controlling estrogen with Deca only of 1mg Clomid daily / 20mg Deca weekly. Ie 300mg Deca /week with 15mg Clomid /day. Has anyone tried this and still gotten gyno?


For all cases but 1a some anti-progesterone strategy seems to be necessary or at least beneficial. Here are the thoughts I have.

1. RU486 – anti-progesterone drug. I have little info on this, but I have no way of getting it. By my view it is the holy grail of Deca side-effect control, but it is too hard for me and prolly most to obtain. MuscleDevelopment article suggested that you can get RU486 across the boarder, but I have heard it is hard to come by.
2. Winstrol or Proviron, both seem to bind to the progesterone receptors, but not be altered by them. This seems to be generally accepted, but not to well understood. How much Winstrol would be needed. Would oral or injectable dosing be any different?

 

[tombphilips]

Bump for me by me.

 

[panerai]

Get pleny of Nolvadex, and if you get any signs of gyno start with 80mg/day for day one and continue with 20mg/day for the rest of your cycle.

 

[Nutrient-Nut]

It sounds like you've never done Deca, is this true? If it's true, then you don't know how you're going to react to it. So, you think that b/c other people have gotten gyno from Deca only cycles, then you might also. Of course, there is no way to know for sure whether you are going to be one of the unlucky ones or not.

IMO, at a low dose of 300 mg Deca per week, your chances of getting gyno are very very rare! I've done Deca by itself at this dose on two different cycles and never had a problem with gyno and never needed any kind of anti-estrogen or anything else for prevention or treatment. The only cases of gyno that I have ever seen from Deca were when Test was in the cycle also. I'm sure that if the dose was high enough though, gyno could occur with Deca, but not at a low dose of 200-300 mg/week. You're being very cautious, but a little too conscious my friend.

PS - I know doctors that prescribe Deca-Durabolin at 200 mg/week to their patients for medical reasons, not building muscle.

NN

 

[tombphilips]

Paneri,
Thank you very much for your reply.
Noveldex/Clomid then should be adaquate for countering Deca gyno.
I should exaust my last possible source of RU486 shortly. If I am successful getting this do you have any advice on its use.

I assume that Noveldex's impact on IGF-1 would be undesireable if RU486 could take care of this issue.

Thanks, Tom

 

[tombphilips]

Yes quite cautious.

NN,

Thank you very much for your response.

You are absolutely correct that I have never done Deca. My foray into substance banned by my country has consisted of underage drinking (12 years ago) and recently some Clen. I am about as inexperienced as they come, but I have hung around and learned and decided that I am ready (in reality I made that decision about 1-2 years ago, but the legality and the fact I had so much more natural progression prevented me till recently).

I got Gyno during puberty. Just sore knots under my nipples and I think no permanent glandular growth, but enough to know that the hormonal cascade of puberty had more effect on me than most males in the breast area so steroids might too.

I plan on starting Deca 200mg/week for 3 weeks and then doing 300mg/week for 5 more. I plan on having a gyno response protocal to be implemented immediately upon first sign of tenderness in the breasts (hopefully it will not be from hitting myself with a dumbbell like when I was on andro - yes this really happened).

This protocol will include some combination of Noveldex/Clomid, RU486, Winstrol, Proviron.

I also plan on adding HCG at very low doses 500mg every other day as soon as I notice "Deca dick"

I am hopeful I will need no anti-Gyno plan, but...
"If you can only be good or lucky choice lucky every time" & "Only the paranoid survive!"

Thanks, Tom

 

[panerai]

Tom, RU has very bad reputation for side effects, just run a search on this board, some people here actually used it.
Nolvadex will block Estrogen Receptor, which has to be activated for Progesteron gyno to happen, and will lower IGF-1, like you noted. If you are worried about your gains being effected by Nolvadex, you know, you don't have to start Nolvadex, unless you get symptoms of gyno, and really, your chances of gettting one are very slim.

 

[tombphilips]

Thanks again.

I looked around and found a few posts where RU486 was attributed to about a week of feeling like crap.

I am going to stay quite low in dose so I hope you are right. Thanks for all the advice.

I may still see how cheaply I could add some winny or proviron (mitigating or eliminating the "deca dick" concern and effecting the gyno equation), but I do not like the oral alkylated steroid concerns (again with the low doses I would do and for only 5 weeks it shouldn't be to horrible I just enjoy my paranoia).

Thanks,
Tom