Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
UGL OZ
UGFREAK
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsUGL OZUGFREAK

Why are people jumping all over William Bennett?

75th

ololollllolloolloloolllol
EF VIP
I'm not a huge fan of Bill "Virtues" Bennett, esp after the gambling stories broke, but it seems he was making a reasonable point of logic and rhetoric with this counter-argument in responding to the crime-abortion relationship posited by a radio show caller, and I'll bet the book he (the caller) was referencing for this question is the one I bought the other day called "Freakanomics" which addresses exactly these sorts of relationships, and argues that more readily available abortions to the poor in the 60's & 70's had a lot more to do with the reduction of crime in the 80's than the effects of more aggressive policing, which is usually credited with the drop in crime rates.

In any case why is everyone, including the White House, behaving like idiots. As an example about the limits of means (in his opinion) he answers this question by positing a ridiculous counter-scenario, (which he condemns, in strong language). I'm not seeing what's there to be outraged by. You may or may not think his counter-argument had merit, but it hardly dis-respected black people.

Bennett, on his radio show, “Morning in America,” was answering a caller’s question when he took issue with the hypothesis put forth in a recent book that one reason crime is down is that abortion is up.

“But I do know that it’s true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could, if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down,” said Bennett, author of “The Book of Virtues.”

He went on to call that “an impossible, ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down. So these far-out, these far-reaching, extensive extrapolations are, I think, tricky.”

Then, of course, you have far-left hypocrites calling for his show to be cancelled.

Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.) circulated a letter, signed by 10 of his colleagues, demanding that the Salem Radio Network suspend Bennett's show.

And this next one from an actual civil rights leader. Gimme a break.

Wade Henderson, the executive director of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, demanded that the show be canceled.

I know that its a fad these days to attack everything and everybody that has an (R) next to their name when they comment during newscasts, but this is rediculous.
 
We don't be likin nobody to tell da troof bout us less'n it be one 'o our own.
 
Dial_tone said:
We don't be likin nobody to tell da troof bout us less'n it be one 'o our own.
Racist!
 
While his argument may be valid (if you eliminate any race the crime rate will drop as all races contribute to it) he is using a stereotypical conservative racist view that only black people commit crimes. I find the comment apprehensible and morally crooked. Had he chosen "the poor" or "Lower class" he wouldn't have gotten as dramatic a backlash, but due to his choice of an openly bigotted response I understand the harsh criticism.

Cheers,
Scotsman
 
Scotsman said:
While his argument may be valid (if you eliminate any race the crime rate will drop as all races contribute to it) he is using a stereotypical conservative racist view that only black people commit crimes. I find the comment apprehensible and morally crooked. Had he chosen "the poor" or "Lower class" he wouldn't have gotten as dramatic a backlash, but due to his choice of an openly bigotted response I understand the harsh criticism.

Cheers,
Scotsman

Why is it a "conservative" racist view? Especially considering that a "conservative" view wouldnt even allow abortions?

Besides, the standard "liberal" view suggests Affirmative Action, which is basically a way of saying that minorities arent adept enough to do anything on their own without some help from The Man.

Besides, if you read about what happened (ie the caller's original question), the caller makes patently ridiculous claim regarding the extrapolation of something based on abortion. Bennett illustrates the stupidity of such extrapolations by making another, equally stupid extrapolation, clearly identifying it as such, in the hopes of illustrating a basic point.

No bigotry intended, no racist agenda, except perhaps in the minds of our esteemed, professional race lords, peace be unto them.
 
75th said:
Why is it a "conservative" racist view? Especially considering that a "conservative" view wouldnt even allow abortions?

Besides, the standard "liberal" view suggests Affirmative Action, which is basically a way of saying that minorities arent adept enough to do anything on their own without some help from The Man.

Besides, if you read about what happened (ie the caller's original question), the caller makes patently ridiculous claim regarding the extrapolation of something based on abortion. Bennett illustrates the stupidity of such extrapolations by making another, equally stupid extrapolation, clearly identifying it as such, in the hopes of illustrating a basic point.

No bigotry intended, no racist agenda, except perhaps in the minds of our esteemed, professional race lords, peace be unto them.

Well it will automatically be termed racist because it's a white guy advocating eliminating a portion or all of the black community. That crime is cause by minorities is a typicall conservative viewpoint. While you are correct in saying that abortion is typically a liberal focus. I should have been more clear distinguishing my point.

And this is much like the claim that it was the societal acceptence of homosexuality that led to the coming to power of the Nazi party in Germany. If you can find any two events that occur at the same time then someone will say that they are endelibly related. Much like the new claim that drinking soda/pop causes esauphagal cancer. This report was made because someone looked at the higher rate of consumption is occuring at the same time as a higher rate of E.cancer. Though no scientific evidence has been done to validate this theory, many doctors have supported it as fact.

Cheers,
Scotsman
 
I think he was simply pointing to the fact, that statistics show that there are more black people incarcerated(sp?) than any other group of people. then of course there is the argument that this is only because of a racist judicial system, run by racist people. But that's a whole diff. story. Yes it's very insensitive and stereotypical, and he def. should have kept that comment to himself.
 
Scotsman said:
Well it will automatically be termed racist because it's a white guy advocating eliminating a portion or all of the black community. That crime is cause by minorities is a typicall conservative viewpoint. While you are correct in saying that abortion is typically a liberal focus. I should have been more clear distinguishing my point.

And this is much like the claim that it was the societal acceptence of homosexuality that led to the coming to power of the Nazi party in Germany. If you can find any two events that occur at the same time then someone will say that they are endelibly related. Much like the new claim that drinking soda/pop causes esauphagal cancer. This report was made because someone looked at the higher rate of consumption is occuring at the same time as a higher rate of E.cancer. Though no scientific evidence has been done to validate this theory, many doctors have supported it as fact.

Cheers,
Scotsman

According to the US Department of Justice, it is a common sense viewpoint:

As of December 31, 2004, black males from 20 to 39 years old accounted for over a third of all sentenced prison inmates under state or federal jurisdiction. On that date 10.4 percent of the country’s black male population between the ages of 25 to 29 were in prison, compared to 2.4 percent of Hispanic males and 1.2 percent of white males in the same age group.

And again, he wasnt advocating anything. He said right after that it would be morally reprehensible to even consider such a thing.
 
sublime35 said:
I think he was simply pointing to the fact, that statistics show that there are more black people incarcerated(sp?) than any other group of people. then of course there is the argument that this is only because of a racist judicial system, run by racist people. But that's a whole diff. story. Yes it's very insensitive and stereotypical, and he def. should have kept that comment to himself.
Thats the thing, the purpose of his comment wasnt to point it out.

The caller had suggested that if the citizens had much more abortions throughout the 1970s-1990s then the Social Security system would be different today. Bennett was just throwing this out as an absurd counterargument to an absurd statement.
 
75th said:
According to the US Department of Justice, it is a common sense viewpoint:



And again, he wasnt advocating anything. He said right after that it would be morally reprehensible to even consider such a thing.

I know it is a proven statistic, it just isn't PC (fuck I hate that shit) for a white guy to say anything bad about any race in the public forum.

Yeah but to say it in the first place was wrong even to go back seconds later and say that it's wrong. You have to remember in todays trigger happy media world there are no take backs allowed. Many a political/media figure has lost their carreer over one little remark, just look at Jimmy the greek, and Howard Dean for examples of how one tiny thing ended them almost instantly.

I am all for open discussion, but if you are going to say something controversial then you need to be ready for the fall out, no matter how overdone it may be.

Cheers,
Scotsman
 
Scotsman said:
Well it will automatically be termed racist because it's a white guy advocating eliminating a portion or all of the black community. That all crime is cause by minorities is a typicall conservative viewpoint. While you are correct in saying that abortion is typically a liberal focus. I should have been more clear distinguishing my point.

And this is much like the claim that it was the societal acceptence of homosexuality that led to the coming to power of the Nazi party in Germany. If you can find any two events that occur at the same time then someone will say that they are endelibly related. Much like the new claim that drinking soda/pop causes esauphagal cancer. This report was made because someone looked at the higher rate of consumption is occuring at the same time as a higher rate of E.cancer. Though no scientific evidence has been done to validate this theory, many doctors have supported it as fact.

Cheers,
Scotsman

This is what I should have said. (in bold)

Cheers,
Scotsman
 
Scotsman said:
I know it is a proven statistic, it just isn't PC (fuck I hate that shit) for a white guy to say anything bad about any race in the public forum.

Yeah but to say it in the first place was wrong even to go back seconds later and say that it's wrong. You have to remember in todays trigger happy media world there are no take backs allowed. Many a political/media figure has lost their carreer over one little remark, just look at Jimmy the greek, and Howard Dean for examples of how one tiny thing ended them almost instantly.

I am all for open discussion, but if you are going to say something controversial then you need to be ready for the fall out, no matter how overdone it may be.

Cheers,
Scotsman

He didnt go back seconds later. It was all part of the same statement, which was intended to be outrageous in the first place.

If the only bad thing about it that him (a white guy) saying that wasnt PC then in my mind there is no problem.
 
Scotsman said:
This is what I should have said. (in bold)

Cheers,
Scotsman

It still means the same thing.

The bottom line is that its no longer a "viewpoint" if its true. Its now called "knowledge."
 
75th said:
He didnt go back seconds later. It was all part of the same statement, which was intended to be outrageous in the first place.

If the only bad thing about it that him (a white guy) saying that wasnt PC then in my mind there is no problem.


And taken out of context I without hearing the original broadcast wasn't sure of the time relation of the statement and qualifier. I am sure that it has been separated and plastered to the press for the desired effect from his antagonists.

I agree that breaking the PC code isn't too bad a thing to do, but society tends to not agree with that.

Cheers,
Scotsman
 
75th said:
It still means the same thing.

The bottom line is that its no longer a "viewpoint" if its true. Its now called "knowledge."


No because in my changed post it would mean that white people cause no crime, and that is a total farce.

Cheers,
Scotsman
 
Scotsman said:
No because in my changed post it would mean that white people cause no crime, and that is a total farce.

Cheers,
Scotsman

Ah, true that.
 
Scotsman said:
I know it is a proven statistic, it just isn't PC (fuck I hate that shit) for a white guy to say anything bad about any race in the public forum.

Yeah but to say it in the first place was wrong even to go back seconds later and say that it's wrong. You have to remember in todays trigger happy media world there are no take backs allowed. Many a political/media figure has lost their carreer over one little remark, just look at Jimmy the greek, and Howard Dean for examples of how one tiny thing ended them almost instantly.

I am all for open discussion, but if you are going to say something controversial then you need to be ready for the fall out, no matter how overdone it may be.

Cheers,
Scotsman

I don't give a fuck about political correctness...
If you're going to make an argument that genocide will lower the crime rate then your show NEEDS to be terminated...
 
gjohnson5 said:
I don't give a fuck about political correctness...
If you're going to make an argument that genocide will lower the crime rate then your show NEEDS tlo be terminated...
Why are people so blind?

Does anybody actually read what was written?

He wasnt...wasnt advocating anything. He brought it up as an obsurd suggestion as a comparison to the caller's obsurd suggestion.

"You saying that is like me saying this..." Thats what happened. Why is that so hard for people to understand?
 
75th said:
Why are people so blind?

Does anybody actually read what was written?

He wasnt...wasnt advocating anything. He brought it up as an obsurd suggestion as a comparison to the caller's obsurd suggestion.

"You saying that is like me saying this..." Thats what happened. Why is that so hard for people to understand?


Blind...

I can post some death penalty statistics that seem to be analagous to the open hypothesis

1. A white person kills a black person and gets life
2. A black person kills a white peron and get the chair

The end result is always the black folks get killed guilty or innocent
 
gjohnson5 said:
Blind...

I can post some death penalty statistics that seem to be analagous to the open hypothesis

1. A white person kills a black person and gets life
2. A black person kills a white peron and get the chair

The end result is always the black folks get killed guilty or innocent
Are you changing the subject because you realized youre wrong?
 
75th said:
Are you changing the subject because you realized youre wrong?

75th , when you prove me wrong , I will willingly and openly admit it...
Unfortunately no 26 year old will ever do so . lol...
especially not a conservative

Your point was that genocide = lower crime
My point was the death penalty is applied on a higher scale to blacks

Where is the change of subject my man??

Now to change th subject , is that you in your avatar?
(You see that?? When I want to change the subject I say I'm changing the subject)
If so
1. eat more especially protein
2. time in the weightroom may not be an issue but recovery time may need to be increased

Tell me what you do for cardio if any
 
gjohnson5 said:
75th , when you prove me wrong , I will willingly and openly admit it...
Unfortunately no 26 year old will ever do so . lol...
especially not a conservative

Your point was that genocide = lower crime
My point was the death penalty is applied on a higher scale to blacks

Where is the change of subject my man??

Now to change th subject , is that you in your avatar?
(You see that?? When I want to change the subject I say I'm changing the subject)
If so
1. eat more especially protein
2. time in the weightroom may not be an issue but recovery time may need to be increased

Tell me what you do for cardio if any


You obviously havent read any at all of this thread if you think anybody mentioned anywhere about advocating genocide.

Ill make you a deal...Ill lift more weights (even if my shoulder doesnt allow it) if you get your GED.
 
gjohnson5 said:
I have yet to read any truth in this thread
Again, which is another proving factor that you havent read any of it.

You have soooo missed the point of this discussion.
 
did i hear something different than everyone else?

he DID NOT advocate aborting black babies. he is against abortion whole-heartedly.

the point he was making was very simple, extreme extrapolations are rediculous, morally wrong and dangerous.
 
i dunno dude, something about that just doesn't sound right...a fucking stupid thing to say, I'm sure his peers would agree...for once i might agree with the whinny peeps
 
spongebob said:
did i hear something different than everyone else?

he DID NOT advocate aborting black babies. he is against abortion whole-heartedly.

the point he was making was very simple, extreme extrapolations are rediculous, morally wrong and dangerous.

Im breathing a sigh of relief that somebody actually read what happened and realizes that the whole point of him saying this was BECAUSE it is retarded!
 
Gambino said:
i dunno dude, something about that just doesn't sound right...a fucking stupid thing to say, I'm sure his peers would agree...for once i might agree with the whinny peeps

He's hosting a call-in show.

Caller: "You know, we wouldnt have a problem with social security if only we aborted a lot more kids back in the 70s and 80s."

Bennett: "Thats stupid. Thats as stupid as saying that the crime rate would go down if we aborted all the black kids. It makes no sense and is morally reprehensible."

Of course, people like gj is only reading the one line which serves his political agenda.
 
Gambino said:
i dunno dude, something about that just doesn't sound right...a fucking stupid thing to say, I'm sure his peers would agree...for once i might agree with the whinny peeps

lol @ whinny peeps.
 
if someone didnt like bill bennet said wait till they see what john gibson just said on fox news.

something to the effect of

"blacks are being left behind by latino's in gaining political power because they have aborted 10million babies"
 
spongebob said:
if someone didnt like bill bennet said wait till they see what john gibson just said on fox news.

something to the effect of

"blacks are being left behind by latino's in gaining political power because they have aborted 10million babies"

Tell me youre joking.
 
75th said:
Tell me youre joking.

im not. i caught the end of it so im not 100% sure but it was along those lines. he was arguing with some broad on there.

he was trying to make some weird point. im wondering if it the shit will hit the fan on this one.
 
spongebob said:
im not. i caught the end of it so im not 100% sure but it was along those lines. he was arguing with some broad on there.

he was trying to make some weird point. im wondering if it the shit will hit the fan on this one.

Wow. Im sure that, being on Fox, the clip will be up on numerous websites in no time.
 
gjohnson5 said:
Blind...

I can post some death penalty statistics that seem to be analagous to the open hypothesis

1. A white person kills a black person and gets life
2. A black person kills a white peron and get the chair

The end result is always the black folks get killed guilty or innocent

You may be interested in reading this, as well. I know that you only recognize facts as facts when they support your claims (which isnt often), but try to think with an open mind:

From the WSJ:

Consider the data. A 2003 study of the racial impact of federal sentencing guidelines found that the imposition between 1986 and 2000 of stiffer penalties for drug offenders, especially cocaine traffickers, did not result in racially disparate sentences. The amount of the drug sold, the seriousness of the offender’s prior criminal history, whether weapons were involved, and other such valid characteristics of criminals and their crimes accounted for all the observed interracial variations in prison sentences.

Similarly, a 2001 RAND Corporation study of adult robbery and burglary defendants in 14 large U.S. cities found that a defendant’s race or ethnic group bore almost no relation to conviction rates, sentencing severity, or other key measures. In 1999, federal government statistician Patrick A. Langan analyzed data on 42,500 defendants in the nation’s 75 largest counties and found “no evidence that, in the places where blacks in the United States have most of their contacts with the justice system, that system treats them more harshly than whites.”

A 2001 study by Langan of black-white differentials in imprisonment rates demonstrated that “even if racism exists, it might explain only a small part of the gap between the 11 percent black representation in the United States adult population and the now nearly 50 percent black representation among persons entering state prisons each year in the United States.” An otherwise typically liberal-leaning 2003 National Academy of Sciences study voiced the same basic conclusion.

It is often asserted that the 1980s war on drugs resulted in a more racially “disproportionate” prison population. The data tell a different story. In 1980, 46.6 percent of state prisoners and 34.4 percent of federal prisoners were black; by 2000, 48.9 percent of state prisoners and 31.4 percent of federal prisoners were black. In 1999, the median time served in confinement by black violent offenders was 25 months, versus 24 months for their white counterparts. The mean sentence lengths were 116 months for blacks and 110 for whites, while the mean times actually served in confinement were 37 months for blacks, 33 months for whites. These small differences are explained by the fact that black violent crimes are generally more serious than white ones (aggravated rather than simple assaults, weapon-related crimes rather than weaponless ones).

Indeed, the evidence on the race-neutrality of incarceration decisions is now so compelling that even topflight criminologists who rail against the anti-drug regime, mandatory sentencing laws, three-strikes laws, and other policies with which they disagree are nonetheless careful to contend that racial biases are “built into the law,” are “America’s dirty little secret,” or constitute “malign neglect.” In other words, they do everything but challenge the proposition that blacks and whites who do the same crimes and have similar criminal records are now handled by the system in the same ways.

In this vein, liberal experts contend that the penalties for crack cocaine possession and sale are excessive compared with powder cocaine penalties. I concur. And liberals are also right that blacks are far more likely than whites to use and sell crack instead of powder cocaine. But they go badly wrong on two key counts. First, they feed the conspiratorial myth that federal anti-crack penalties were born of a white conspiracy led by right-wing Republicans. Go check the Congressional Record: in 1986, when the federal crack law was debated, the Congressional Black Caucus (CBC) supported it, and some CBC members pressed for even harsher penalties. A few years earlier it was CBC members and other Democrats in Congress who pushed President Reagan, against his considered judgment, to create the Office of National Drug Control Policy (better known as the drug czar’s office). And it was President Clinton who recently refused in no uncertain terms to change the federal penalty structure for drug crimes.

Second, liberal experts and advocates of drug legalization cloud the facts about who really goes to prison for drug crimes. As I and several other researchers have concluded, society gets little return on its investment in locking up low-level offenders who possess or even traffic in small amounts of drugs and commit no other crimes. But most drug offenders, both those behind bars and those who have served their time, do not fit that description.

As a recent study funded by the National Institute of Justice and other federal agencies acknowledged, in “an important sense the label ‘drug offender’ is a misnomer.” Few “drug offenders” are in prison for mere possession. In 2001, for example, only 2 percent of the 36,648 persons admitted to federal prisons were in for drug possession. Moreover, as for imprisoned drug traffickers, most have long and diversified criminal records—only their latest and most serious conviction offense is a drug-trafficking offense. Even in the much-maligned federal system, few convicted drug traffickers, whether they handle crack, powder cocaine, or pot, are black college kids or white white-collar types arrested on the interstate by a state trooper who found a small stash under the driver’s seat. The average quantity of drugs involved in federal cocaine trafficking cases is 183 pounds, while the average for marijuana traffickers is 3.5 tons.
 
75th said:
He's hosting a call-in show.

Caller: "You know, we wouldnt have a problem with social security if only we aborted a lot more kids back in the 70s and 80s."

Bennett: "Thats stupid. Thats as stupid as saying that the crime rate would go down if we aborted all the black kids. It makes no sense and is morally reprehensible."

Of course, people like gj is only reading the one line which serves his political agenda.

That's not the way he said it.

Anyway, while he did qualify what he said by saying it would be a morally reprehensible thing to do, he did nothing to qualify his statement that killing all black fetuses would reduce the crime rate. That directly perpetuates the stereotype that just because you are black, you're a criminal.
 
bluepeter said:
That's not the way he said it.

Anyway, while he did qualify what he said by saying it would be a morally reprehensible thing to do, he did nothing to qualify his statement that killing all black fetuses would reduce the crime rate. That directly perpetuates the stereotype that just because you are black, you're a criminal.

uh, no.

whether or not the statement has merit doesnt matter. he clearly was using it ONLY to make his point. so he doesnt have to qualify the contents of the statement. it was outlandish, he said so, clearly. and if YOU extrapolate that "just because your black, your a criminal" from what he said, then your making a mistake. your mistake is that you're taking a statement out of context and working your way backwards with it to extrapolate something you think he said. take the statement as is, which is rather easy. the statement suggest a game of percentages, nothing else.

now do you wanna argue whether the statement has merit or will the default race card be played as always.
 
spongebob said:
uh, no.

whether or not the statement has merit doesnt matter. he clearly was using it ONLY to make his point. so he doesnt have to qualify the contents of the statement. it was outlandish, he said so, clearly. and if YOU extrapolate that "just because your black, your a criminal" from what he said, then your making a mistake. your mistake is that you're taking a statement out of context and working your way backwards with it to extrapolate something you think he said. take the statement as is, which is rather easy. the statement suggest a game of percentages, nothing else.

now do you wanna argue whether the statement has merit or will the default race card be played as always.

Exactly. He was only using the outlandish statement as a response to somebody saying that we would have more money in the SS bank if abortion wasnt legal.
 
spongebob said:
or he could be a rascist.
Easiest solution. Most simple-minded folk believe so.
 
spongebob said:
uh, no.

whether or not the statement has merit doesnt matter. he clearly was using it ONLY to make his point. so he doesnt have to qualify the contents of the statement. it was outlandish, he said so, clearly. and if YOU extrapolate that "just because your black, your a criminal" from what he said, then your making a mistake. your mistake is that you're taking a statement out of context and working your way backwards with it to extrapolate something you think he said. take the statement as is, which is rather easy. the statement suggest a game of percentages, nothing else.

now do you wanna argue whether the statement has merit or will the default race card be played as always.

I disagree. His qualification after the fact was a statement that to abort all black babies would be reprehensible. He said nothing to qualify the inference that aborting black babies would reduce the crime rate.

You are right that he said the statement was outlandish but only in terms of aborting all babies of a certain race. It's a two part statement on his part and he only qualified half of it. Was that his intention? I have no idea.
 
bluepeter said:
I disagree. His qualification after the fact was a statement that to abort all black babies would be reprehensible. He said nothing to qualify the inference that aborting black babies would reduce the crime rate.

You are right that he said the statement was outlandish but only in terms of aborting all babies of a certain race. It's a two part statement on his part and he only qualified half of it. Was that his intention? I have no idea.

Thank you... others on here just don't seem to get it
 
gjohnson5 said:
Thank you... others on here just don't seem to get it

Gimme a break...your argument is that he is calling for genocide and that saying that only black people commit crime.

Dont jump on the back of bluepeter's argument. He actually read what was said.
 
bluepeter said:
I disagree. His qualification after the fact was a statement that to abort all black babies would be reprehensible. He said nothing to qualify the inference that aborting black babies would reduce the crime rate.

You are right that he said the statement was outlandish but only in terms of aborting all babies of a certain race. It's a two part statement on his part and he only qualified half of it. Was that his intention? I have no idea.

The caller said that if abortion was illegal, more kids would have been born over the past 20 years, and therefor more money would have been paid for SS. While statistically accurate, it is a retarded notion that nobody would consider.

Bennett's reply was indeed statistically accurate, but is also a retarded notion that nobody would consider.

He was comparing apples with apples.
 
gjohnson5 said:
I like the intent part of what he had to say. I don't believe his "intent" was to point out the obvious...
Obviously, many people cant/wont admit that the obvious exists.
 
75th said:
The caller said that if abortion was illegal, more kids would have been born over the past 20 years, and therefor more money would have been paid for SS. While statistically accurate, it is a retarded notion that nobody would consider.

Bennett's reply was indeed statistically accurate, but is also a retarded notion that nobody would consider.

He was comparing apples with apples.

I know but he piggybacked his ridiculous notion on what he apparently considers a commonly accepted stereotype. His comparison was that abortion being legal causing a Social Security issue today was as nonsensical as aborting all black babies to reduce crime.

In fact, he even reinforces his stereotype in his qualification statement:

"That would be an impossibly ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down," he said.

In other words, it would be morally reprehensible to do such a thing but it would serve the purpose in terms of what we are trying to do, lower crime.

Being black does not make you a criminal, poverty and hopelessness do. Now whether that is the fault of certain black people or a combination of things is another topic. One debated endlessly :)
 
bluepeter said:
Being black does not make you a criminal, poverty and hopelessness do. Now whether that is the fault of certain black people or a combination of things is another topic. One debated endlessly :)


Indeed, but all you have to do is click page #2 and look at the facts I posted.

I dont know, I just see it as since both "end results" are statistically accurate (which based on the numbers that have been available for over 30 years) why the hooplah for pointing it out?
 
bluepeter said:
I disagree. His qualification after the fact was a statement that to abort all black babies would be reprehensible. He said nothing to qualify the inference that aborting black babies would reduce the crime rate.

You are right that he said the statement was outlandish but only in terms of aborting all babies of a certain race. It's a two part statement on his part and he only qualified half of it. Was that his intention? I have no idea.

ok then we'll leave it at that, in agreement on half of it.
 
gjohnson5 said:
infact it seems "obvious" that he feels "aborting black babies will lower crime" as he very readily makes this example. Why did he not make an example of whites and white collar crime???

Statistically, both of those assertions are correct, whether or not you want to admit it. And if he did say something about white's performing more "white collar crime" I wouldnt see it as racist.

Much like the black/violent crime...the bottom line is that based on hard numbers that have been compiled for decades...it is a fact.
 
bluepeter said:
I know but he piggybacked his ridiculous notion on what he apparently considers a commonly accepted stereotype. His comparison was that abortion being legal causing a Social Security issue today was as nonsensical as aborting all black babies to reduce crime.

In fact, he even reinforces his stereotype in his qualification statement:

"That would be an impossibly ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down," he said.

In other words, it would be morally reprehensible to do such a thing but it would serve the purpose in terms of what we are trying to do, lower crime.

Being black does not make you a criminal, poverty and hopelessness do. Now whether that is the fault of certain black people or a combination of things is another topic. One debated endlessly :)


This also happens to be the conclusion drawn in this post I made in the other thread which YOU failed to read:
Point number 3:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 75TH

According to the US Department of Justice, it is a common sense viewpoint:

Quote:
As of December 31, 2004, black males from 20 to 39 years old accounted for over a third of all sentenced prison inmates under state or federal jurisdiction. On that date 10.4 percent of the country’s black male population between the ages of 25 to 29 were in prison, compared to 2.4 percent of Hispanic males and 1.2 percent of white males in the same age group.


The crime rate is up due to alarmingly high numbers of african americans incarserated. All crime in America is due to one sector of the population.

What do you think the conclusion from this is going to be???
 
gjohnson5 said:
The crime rate is up due to alarmingly high numbers of african americans incarserated.


LOL the crime rate is up because more blacks are in jail? Hahahahahaha.
 
75th said:
Statistically, both of those assertions are correct, whether or not you want to admit it. And if he did say something about white's performing more "white collar crime" I wouldnt see it as racist.

Much like the black/violent crime...the bottom line is that based on hard numbers that have been compiled for decades...it is a fact.

Good so you finally admit your fault...
If you feel that killing blacks will lower crime then this is what I was saying before. I don't care to hear your politics. or your interpretation on statistics.
This is also why the show got terminated. The consequence fits the crime and he was canceled. GOOD
 
75th said:
Indeed, but all you have to do is click page #2 and look at the facts I posted.

I dont know, I just see it as since both "end results" are statistically accurate (which based on the numbers that have been available for over 30 years) why the hooplah for pointing it out?

My take is that it is different because end result number one is letting babies live and end result number two is killing babies because of the colour of their parents.
 
gjohnson5 said:
Good so you finally admit your fault...
If you feel that killing blacks will lower crime then this is what I was saying before. I don't care to hear your politics. or your interpretation on statistics.
This is also why the show got terminated. The consequence fits the crime and he was canceled. GOOD

Uh, the show was not terminated. Believe it or not, Freedom of Speech does include those who you do not agree with.

And I posted nothing of "fault."
 
bluepeter said:
My take is that it is different because end result number one is letting babies live and end result number two is killing babies because of the colour of their parents.
If he suggested aborting white kids born in the northwest to curb serial killers would anybody be upset?

Probably not...which is why I dont see anything wrong with what he said. Especially since he clearly did not advocate anything of the sort.
 
bluepeter said:
I know but he piggybacked his ridiculous notion on what he apparently considers a commonly accepted stereotype. His comparison was that abortion being legal causing a Social Security issue today was as nonsensical as aborting all black babies to reduce crime.

In fact, he even reinforces his stereotype in his qualification statement:

"That would be an impossibly ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down," he said.

In other words, it would be morally reprehensible to do such a thing but it would serve the purpose in terms of what we are trying to do, lower crime.

Being black does not make you a criminal, poverty and hopelessness do. Now whether that is the fault of certain black people or a combination of things is another topic. One debated endlessly :)

well i think your starting to argue the merits of the statement now. and i think your extrapolating your assumption out of his statement.

i think only an idiot would think only blacks commit crimes, so really that extrapolation of yours is not even worth mentioning to make your point.

are you arguing that crime would not go down as a result of increased abortions? i dont understand.

i think where you make the mistake is that you assume he's suggesting being black makes you a criminal. that to is rediculous. do you really believe he means that? im mean the man is educated.
 
75th said:
If he suggested aborting white kids born in the northwest to curb serial killers would anybody be upset?

Probably not...which is why I dont see anything wrong with what he said. Especially since he clearly did not advocate anything of the sort.

No but if I said "two wrongs don't make it right, but it damn sure makes it even" in terms revolting against "the man" , you'd probably call me racist.

This is the double standard that exists in Amrerica. You don't wanna hear black pather speeches about taking up arms against police brutality , but you'll try to say that blacks = increased crime. When I feel it's fact that the oppression is what created the crime in the first place...

Now I bet alot of people are going to start arguing with me
 
75th said:
If he suggested aborting white kids born in the northwest to curb serial killers would anybody be upset?

Probably not...which is why I dont see anything wrong with what he said. Especially since he clearly did not advocate anything of the sort.

Different situation since I'm not aware of any universal stereotype out there that identifies whites in the northwest to commonly be serial killers :) The reaction to a statement like that would probably be more along the line of 'wtf? where did that come from'.

He made the mistake of mixing something that was outlandish with what he seems to think is common knowledge, all blacks are inherently criminal. You can post whatever stats you want but there is nothing definitive anywhere that says out of kids brought up in the same circumstances and environment, one particular group are more likely to be drawn to crime. It's way more complicated than that. Some of it is obviously the attitude of some blacks that they are owed something. Some is the hopeless environment some of these poor kids are born into. Some of it is inherent racism etc. etc.

He gave what he deemed to be an appropriately ridiculous comparison but unfortunately boxed it with a stereotype he assumed everyone would understand because in his view, it was true. Some people don't understand generalizing an entire race thankfully.
 
bluepeter said:
Different situation since I'm not aware of any universal stereotype out there that identifies whites in the northwest to commonly be serial killers :) The reaction to a statement like that would probably be more along the line of 'wtf? where did that come from'.

He made the mistake of mixing something that was outlandish with what he seems to think is common knowledge, all blacks are inherently criminal. You can post whatever stats you want but there is nothing definitive anywhere that says out of kids brought up in the same circumstances and environment, one particular group are more likely to be drawn to crime. It's way more complicated than that. Some of it is obviously the attitude of some blacks that they are owed something. Some is the hopeless environment some of these poor kids are born into. Some of it is inherent racism etc. etc.

He gave what he deemed to be an appropriately ridiculous comparison but unfortunately boxed it with a stereotype he assumed everyone would understand because in his view, it was true. Some people don't understand generalizing an entire race thankfully.


I understand what youre saying, but I still dont see a problem with him saying it at all, considering it IS a statistical fact.

And yes, 75% of all serial killers are white males between the ages of 25-35, most of whom originate from either Washington or Oregon.
 
gjohnson5 said:
No but if I said "two wrongs don't make it right, but it damn sure makes it even" in terms revolting against "the man" , you'd probably call me racist.

This is the double standard that exists in Amrerica. You don't wanna hear black pather speeches about taking up arms against police brutality , but you'll try to say that blacks = increased crime. When I feel it's fact that the oppression is what created the crime in the first place...

Now I bet alot of people are going to start arguing with me

The only double standard is that anybody who points out the statistical fact that blacks generally commit more violent crime than any other ethnicity is deemed a racist.

Quoting statistical facts does not equal racism. It equals statistical facts.
 
bluepeter said:
He made the mistake of mixing something that was outlandish with what he seems to think is common knowledge, all blacks are inherently criminal. You can post whatever stats you want but there is nothing definitive anywhere that says out of kids brought up in the same circumstances and environment, one particular group are more likely to be drawn to crime. It's way more complicated than that. Some of it is obviously the attitude of some blacks that they are owed something. Some is the hopeless environment some of these poor kids are born into. Some of it is inherent racism etc. etc.

.

why are you introducing arguments into this that have nothing to do with it.

everyone including bill bennet would agree with you. you are right. there are a lot of circumstances that factor into being a criminal. and being black is not one of them. no one ever said it was.

tangent after tangent.

black people commit crimes.
if you abort them the crime rate will go down.

same thing can be said of any race, or gender, that is fact. just a simple conclusion. it jst so happens that percentage wise you will lower it more by aborting blacks. whoop di fucking do. get over it.

it has nothing to do with other factors. poor or whatever. just so happens that percentage wise, there are more poor criminals. whoopi di fucking do.

goodnight folks.
 
spongebob said:
why are you introducing arguments into this that have nothing to do with it.

everyone including bill bennet would agree with you. you are right. there are a lot of circumstances that factor into being a criminal. and being black is not one of them. no one ever said it was.

tangent after tangent.

black people commit crimes.
if you abort them the crime rate will go down.

same thing can be said of any race, or gender, that is fact. just a simple conclusion. it jst so happens that percentage wise you will lower it more by aborting blacks. whoop di fucking do. get over it.

it has nothing to do with other factors. poor or whatever. just so happens that percentage wise, there are more poor criminals. whoopi di fucking do.

goodnight folks.


Indeed.
 
spongebob said:
why are you introducing arguments into this that have nothing to do with it.

everyone including bill bennet would agree with you. you are right. there are a lot of circumstances that factor into being a criminal. and being black is not one of them. no one ever said it was.

tangent after tangent.

black people commit crimes.
if you abort them the crime rate will go down.

same thing can be said of any race, or gender, that is fact. just a simple conclusion. it jst so happens that percentage wise you will lower it more by aborting blacks. whoop di fucking do. get over it.

it has nothing to do with other factors. poor or whatever. just so happens that percentage wise, there are more poor criminals. whoopi di fucking do.

goodnight folks.


When you wake up in the morning , I want you to take those whoop di do's.
Ok spongebob and 75th... let's assume they are true. Now lets look at why they are true and you wil see why the issue is inflamatory and should not be seen as a small or slight thing
 
gjohnson5 said:
When you wake up in the morning , I want you to take those whoop di do's.
Ok spongebob and 75th... let's assume they are true. Now lets look at why they are true and you wil see why the issue is inflamatory and should not be seen as a small or slight thing

Why what is true? That blacks commit more violent crimes than whites? Well, I know youre planning to bring racism into this...and I know how you DESPISE facts...so here it is again:

Consider the data. A 2003 study of the racial impact of federal sentencing guidelines found that the imposition between 1986 and 2000 of stiffer penalties for drug offenders, especially cocaine traffickers, did not result in racially disparate sentences. The amount of the drug sold, the seriousness of the offender’s prior criminal history, whether weapons were involved, and other such valid characteristics of criminals and their crimes accounted for all the observed interracial variations in prison sentences.

Similarly, a 2001 RAND Corporation study of adult robbery and burglary defendants in 14 large U.S. cities found that a defendant’s race or ethnic group bore almost no relation to conviction rates, sentencing severity, or other key measures. In 1999, federal government statistician Patrick A. Langan analyzed data on 42,500 defendants in the nation’s 75 largest counties and found “no evidence that, in the places where blacks in the United States have most of their contacts with the justice system, that system treats them more harshly than whites.”

A 2001 study by Langan of black-white differentials in imprisonment rates demonstrated that “even if racism exists, it might explain only a small part of the gap between the 11 percent black representation in the United States adult population and the now nearly 50 percent black representation among persons entering state prisons each year in the United States.” An otherwise typically liberal-leaning 2003 National Academy of Sciences study voiced the same basic conclusion.

It is often asserted that the 1980s war on drugs resulted in a more racially “disproportionate” prison population. The data tell a different story. In 1980, 46.6 percent of state prisoners and 34.4 percent of federal prisoners were black; by 2000, 48.9 percent of state prisoners and 31.4 percent of federal prisoners were black. In 1999, the median time served in confinement by black violent offenders was 25 months, versus 24 months for their white counterparts. The mean sentence lengths were 116 months for blacks and 110 for whites, while the mean times actually served in confinement were 37 months for blacks, 33 months for whites. These small differences are explained by the fact that black violent crimes are generally more serious than white ones (aggravated rather than simple assaults, weapon-related crimes rather than weaponless ones).

Indeed, the evidence on the race-neutrality of incarceration decisions is now so compelling that even topflight criminologists who rail against the anti-drug regime, mandatory sentencing laws, three-strikes laws, and other policies with which they disagree are nonetheless careful to contend that racial biases are “built into the law,” are “America’s dirty little secret,” or constitute “malign neglect.” In other words, they do everything but challenge the proposition that blacks and whites who do the same crimes and have similar criminal records are now handled by the system in the same ways.

In this vein, liberal experts contend that the penalties for crack cocaine possession and sale are excessive compared with powder cocaine penalties. I concur. And liberals are also right that blacks are far more likely than whites to use and sell crack instead of powder cocaine. But they go badly wrong on two key counts. First, they feed the conspiratorial myth that federal anti-crack penalties were born of a white conspiracy led by right-wing Republicans. Go check the Congressional Record: in 1986, when the federal crack law was debated, the Congressional Black Caucus (CBC) supported it, and some CBC members pressed for even harsher penalties. A few years earlier it was CBC members and other Democrats in Congress who pushed President Reagan, against his considered judgment, to create the Office of National Drug Control Policy (better known as the drug czar’s office). And it was President Clinton who recently refused in no uncertain terms to change the federal penalty structure for drug crimes.

Second, liberal experts and advocates of drug legalization cloud the facts about who really goes to prison for drug crimes. As I and several other researchers have concluded, society gets little return on its investment in locking up low-level offenders who possess or even traffic in small amounts of drugs and commit no other crimes. But most drug offenders, both those behind bars and those who have served their time, do not fit that description.

As a recent study funded by the National Institute of Justice and other federal agencies acknowledged, in “an important sense the label ‘drug offender’ is a misnomer.” Few “drug offenders” are in prison for mere possession. In 2001, for example, only 2 percent of the 36,648 persons admitted to federal prisons were in for drug possession. Moreover, as for imprisoned drug traffickers, most have long and diversified criminal records—only their latest and most serious conviction offense is a drug-trafficking offense. Even in the much-maligned federal system, few convicted drug traffickers, whether they handle crack, powder cocaine, or pot, are black college kids or white white-collar types arrested on the interstate by a state trooper who found a small stash under the driver’s seat. The average quantity of drugs involved in federal cocaine trafficking cases is 183 pounds, while the average for marijuana traffickers is 3.5 tons.
 
75th said:
Why what is true? That blacks commit more violent crimes than whites? Well, I know youre planning to bring racism into this...and I know how you DESPISE facts...so here it is again:


Well it's true
Look at the evacuation of New Orleans... There is no doubt that race and $$$ play a role in who gets what from the gov't. All politicians "both dem and republican" ignored the levees. Why?? because of the demographics of the town. Now companies like Haliburton are surveying land that used to be black folks homes in NO. Pilgrims and Indians all over again. rich folks captalizing on the underprivledge and misfortune of poorer people. In the news , white people were "foraging" where as black people were "looting". Even the depictions of people of color on the news is bad.

Your statistics are not facts , but the effects of unequal protection under the law and yep , you guessed it, racism

If we do not get equal treatment, blacks are smacked
with the dirty end of the stick in the legal system.
If we do not get equal protection, blacks suffer the
most from crime.

Representatives of civil rights organizations spoke
in Washington last week about a recent study of
unequal treatment. The study had been compiled by
the FBI, the U.S. Office of Juvenile Justice and
Delinquency Prevention and the National Center for
Juvenile Justice.

It found that black and Hispanic youths are far more
likely to be picked up by the police. If picked up,
black kids are nine times more likely to be given
time than white kids.

This seems to be a contemporary extension of what
the NAACP Legal Defense Fund brought before the
Supreme Court more than 40 years ago. Then, the
issue was capital punishment and how more likely one
was to get a death sentence if one were black than
white.

Sorry , but your "facts" are not facts at all
 
Delinquent said:
75th, why even waste your time with him?
Youre right.
 
gjohnson5 said:
Good , the conservatives think I'm a waste of time.
So I guess this BS thread will now be closed , right??
This thread is not BS...simply about 10 posts on it.
 
gjohnson5 said:
When you wake up in the morning , I want you to take those whoop di do's.
Ok spongebob and 75th... let's assume they are true. Now lets look at why they are true and you wil see why the issue is inflamatory and should not be seen as a small or slight thing

you think the whoop di do's are kind of geigh right?

why? because its hard to turn a whole race around after slavery, rascism, bigotry, creating a welfare system that generation after generation live on. building projects and packing people in like sardeens and allowing countless number of gunshops, liquor stores, pawnshops and dollar stores to be built next door. kids being raised by single moms or probably grandma. a culture being raised on violence and violent music glorifying behavior.

and my opinion is the greatest factor is that a lot dont have strong fathers around, for whatever reason. a boy needs a man to guide him thru life, nothing else will sustitute.
 
spongebob said:
you think the whoop di do's are kind of geigh right?

why? because its hard to turn a whole race around after slavery, rascism, bigotry, creating a welfare system that generation after generation live on. building projects and packing people in like sardeens and allowing countless number of gunshops, liquor stores, pawnshops and dollar stores to be built next door. kids being raised by single moms or probably grandma. a culture being raised on violence and violent music glorifying behavior.

and my opinion is the greatest factor is that a lot dont have strong fathers around, for whatever reason. a boy needs a man to guide him thru life, nothing else will sustitute.

As I stated in the above post , if you stick with equal protetion under the law, you'll find many things wrong that are still wrong today. In terms of public schools we'll also find that "separate but equal" is a joke , but that's another story.
 
gjohnson5 said:
As I stated in the above post , if you stick with equal protetion under the law, you'll find many things wrong that are still wrong today. In terms of public schools we'll also find that "separate but equal" is a joke , but that's another story.

i agree once they are caught thier is probably some unequal justice but to me it doesnt factor in as far as actually committing the crimes. not sure if thats what you mean or not.

not sure i can back you up 100% on the school theory. crappy schools exist in poor areas, not just black poor areas. and where there is blacks going to good schools i would think the opportunity is equal. if a student applies themselve, they will get a good education.

but both of these are a product of what i already mentioned, especially the 'culture' and being raised without a strong father.
 
spongebob said:
no but if were talking percentages im guessing its low comparitively speaking.

Ooh lord...

If the current police were as efficient as the dudes in Minority Report , then I'd agree with you... People have been executed and DNA evidence has exonerated them. Everyone , including law enforcement , make mistakes, descriptions are sketchy at best
 
gjohnson5 said:
Ooh lord...

If the current police were as efficient as the dudes in Minority Report , then I'd agree with you... People have been executed and DNA evidence has exonerated them. Everyone , including law enforcement , make mistakes, descriptions are sketchy at best

i agree.
 
PPPFFFTTTT :Chef: :tuc:
 
gjohnson5 said:
50 years ago is still true today

This is why we'll not see eye to eye because you (and other) think stuff has changed...

Nothing has changed in this regard
I assume you also think slavery reparations are justified?
 
I really hate conservative ass holes like Bennett but I really think that his comments were taken out of context and that changed the whole meaning of what he was trying to say. He just came up with a bad example to make his point.
 
75th said:
I assume you also think slavery reparations are justified?

Inspiration is the power of human life and the fuel that makes the world go around. All that one makes of themselves is due to the drive and the fire that is harnessed internally by the individual. Nothing can stop you if you don't allow it (them) to. believe in yourself when noone else will and an individual can make mountains move.

Let ones blood flow through the lobes of the brain which contain a fuel which wil never run dry and you will watch a human with tunnelvision with one goal to achieve. No bioethics can stop an indivudual from peering deep onto themselves and venturing to gather what is lost...

U figure it out
 
gjohnson5 said:
Inspiration is the power of human life and the fuel that makes the world go around. All that one makes of themselves is due to the drive and the fire that is harnessed internally by the individual. Nothing can stop you if you don't allow it (them) to. believe in yourself when noone else will and an individual can make mountains move.

Let ones blood flow through the lobes of the brain which contain a fuel which wil never run dry and you will watch a human with tunnelvision with one goal to achieve. No bioethics can stop an indivudual from peering deep onto themselves and venturing to gather what is lost...

U figure it out

So in other words the answer is yes but you dont want to admit it because you know itll make you look like a moron.
 
gjohnson5 said:
You're not as smart as I thought U were...
Because I dont cut-and-paste random poetic statements from philosphical websites instead of answering a simple question?
 
gjohnson5 said:
Thank you...
My poeticness is soo good that you think I cut and paste it, lol

Shall I post more?
I would suggest that you answer the question, but I know you are below that.
 
All of the rights and wrongs and moral arguments aside, in these times that we live in there are certain topics and words that you simply don't talk about and/or use in the formulation of arguments and conversations. If you do, and you have any common sense, you do so knowing that you are going to have your ass handed to you and the title "racist" will be permanently attached to you. Thats it, there really isn't anything more than that to be said about it. Just ask Jimmy the Greek.
 
Peshmerga said:
All of the rights and wrongs and moral arguments aside, in these times that we live in there are certain topics and words that you simply don't talk about and/or use in the formulation of arguments and conversations. If you do, and you have any common sense, you do so knowing that you are going to have your ass handed to you and the title "racist" will be permanently attached to you. Thats it, there really isn't anything more than that to be said about it. Just ask Jimmy the Greek.

were trying to go forward not backwards.
 
75th said:
I would suggest that you answer the question, but I know you are below that.

The answer to slave reparations question lies within the literature below

The Value of Self Sustinance
by gjohnson5

As I was an offshore fisherman I noticed one thing. Wild fish would start to follow the boat. Fish which have the ability to feed and sustan themselves are now following a fishing boat. I then have to think to myself. Are they smelling food? Are they taking some of our catch? Do they understand , or care , that we worked to catch these fish on our line?? Or do they just like fishing boats???

Very similar to a homeless man , if you put a steak near him what do you expect him to do?

The question is do animals , and humans , have an instinct to take when given to them?

Next question is will animals , and humans , have thier natural instincts for survival somehow "relaxed" by the above scenario. Will fish stop "hunting" and "instinctively" swim towards the first boat they see??

Once again , you figure it out. But the problem is that you are asking the wrong question
 
gjohnson5 said:
The answer to slave reparations question lies within the literature below

The Value of Self Sustinance
by gjohnson5

As I was an offshore fisherman I noticed one thing. Wild fish would start to follow the boat. Fish which have the ability to feed and sustan themselves are now following a fishing boat. I then have to think to myself. Are they smelling food? Are they taking some of our catch? Do they understand , or care , that we worked to catch these fish on our line?? Or do they just like fishing boats???

Very similar to a homeless man , if you put a steak near him what do you expect him to do?

The question is do animals , and humans , have an instinct to take when given to them?

Next question is will animals , and humans , have thier natural instincts for survival somehow "relaxed" by the above scenario. Will fish stop "hunting" and "instinctively" swim towards the first boat they see??

Once again , you figure it out. But the problem is that you are asking the wrong question


Goodness, how can I be asking the wrong question when the yes or no answer is the exact thing that I am curious about?
 
Top Bottom