Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Tom Treutlein
New member
Are full range situps bad for your back, or is that bullshit?
Full range situps...
- Thread starter Tom Treutlein
- Start date
The Red Dragon
New member
ditto, kills my back
supreme
New member
Loaded question, all depends on individual factors, history and level of training.
If you are having back pain it could be several issues: tight lumbar erectors, tight hamstrings, rotation of the pelvis, herinated discs, weak or imbalanced hip flexors / lower abdominal etc.
The first thing you need is an assessment of your posture, specifically rotation of the pelvis and then ROM testing for your spinal erectors and hamstrings. Then you need a test of the strength of your lower abdominal area and then a coordination/strength test of the anterior flexor chain to look for muscle imbalances.
Traditionally full situps strain the back because they over recruit the hip flexors and lead to increased anterior pelvic tilt which increases shearing of the lumbar vertebrae during many exercises, especially ab work. They can also aggrevate any disc problems or can express latent disc problems that have not been diagnosed yet.
The full sit up /crunch is useful for many athletes for most sports that involve running, jumping & throwing need a coordinated effort between the hip flexors and trunk flexors (abs) the problems arise when they are placed into a routine too soon and cause the above mentioned changes is pelvic rotation leading to muscle imbalances and possible injuries.
The abs always need to be trained: Transverse abdominus activiation first, lower abs next , obliques and then upper abdominal region to enusre correct neurological coordination and actviation. ONLY when there is balanced development in all muscle groups do you add in a full ROM sit up. Unfortunately most idiot trainers and BS magazines know about 2 ab exercises: Crunches & machine crunches.
Crunch machines can wreck your lower back for if you don't set them right and you flex too far forward and have your 12th rib cross the axis of rotation of the machine the tension of the weight stack leaves the abdominal wall and is transmitted to the quadratus lumborum (deep muscles in your lower back) and these muscles are unprepared for the sudden load for the QL is an extensor of the spine but when you go too far forward it is forced to become a flexor of the spine in a weak mechanical postion and you get tremendous forces and eventually a QL strain.
So once again we see we need individual assessment, magazine training is bullshit, most trainers are f'in morons and people who rely on crunch machines keep buying BMW's & beach houses for Chiropractors, Orthopedists and Physical therapists.
Later!! (gotta drive my BMW to my beach house! - long live cybex, nautilus & hammer strength $$$$$$)
S
If you are having back pain it could be several issues: tight lumbar erectors, tight hamstrings, rotation of the pelvis, herinated discs, weak or imbalanced hip flexors / lower abdominal etc.
The first thing you need is an assessment of your posture, specifically rotation of the pelvis and then ROM testing for your spinal erectors and hamstrings. Then you need a test of the strength of your lower abdominal area and then a coordination/strength test of the anterior flexor chain to look for muscle imbalances.
Traditionally full situps strain the back because they over recruit the hip flexors and lead to increased anterior pelvic tilt which increases shearing of the lumbar vertebrae during many exercises, especially ab work. They can also aggrevate any disc problems or can express latent disc problems that have not been diagnosed yet.
The full sit up /crunch is useful for many athletes for most sports that involve running, jumping & throwing need a coordinated effort between the hip flexors and trunk flexors (abs) the problems arise when they are placed into a routine too soon and cause the above mentioned changes is pelvic rotation leading to muscle imbalances and possible injuries.
The abs always need to be trained: Transverse abdominus activiation first, lower abs next , obliques and then upper abdominal region to enusre correct neurological coordination and actviation. ONLY when there is balanced development in all muscle groups do you add in a full ROM sit up. Unfortunately most idiot trainers and BS magazines know about 2 ab exercises: Crunches & machine crunches.
Crunch machines can wreck your lower back for if you don't set them right and you flex too far forward and have your 12th rib cross the axis of rotation of the machine the tension of the weight stack leaves the abdominal wall and is transmitted to the quadratus lumborum (deep muscles in your lower back) and these muscles are unprepared for the sudden load for the QL is an extensor of the spine but when you go too far forward it is forced to become a flexor of the spine in a weak mechanical postion and you get tremendous forces and eventually a QL strain.
So once again we see we need individual assessment, magazine training is bullshit, most trainers are f'in morons and people who rely on crunch machines keep buying BMW's & beach houses for Chiropractors, Orthopedists and Physical therapists.
Later!! (gotta drive my BMW to my beach house! - long live cybex, nautilus & hammer strength $$$$$$)
S
Last edited:
blut wump
New member
I can't argue with supreme's fine post but what it basically comes down to is the pelvic girdle and the usual problem of agonistic and antagonistic muscles. Many people do their core work as just a few crunches or situps and ignore their obliques, posterior chain and the fact that you need to work upper and lower abdominals.
Assuming that your skeleton is sound, you need to work on strengthening the rest of your pelvic girdle and, probably, getting more flexibility into your hamstrings. Basically, core conditioning.
Assuming that your skeleton is sound, you need to work on strengthening the rest of your pelvic girdle and, probably, getting more flexibility into your hamstrings. Basically, core conditioning.
supreme
New member
I totally agree, the only problem is most people (especially personal trainers) have no clue as to what the core is or does!
I interview so many morons who "specialize in core training" and I ask them "what is the core, and how do you you train it" - I get the same answer 90% of the time: abs, crunches etc. -hence to say they don't get hired by me!
S
I interview so many morons who "specialize in core training" and I ask them "what is the core, and how do you you train it" - I get the same answer 90% of the time: abs, crunches etc. -hence to say they don't get hired by me!
S
Tom Treutlein
New member
If you got an assement for any pelvic rotation, then got it fixed (assuming you had a problem), isn't is possible you end up with a tilt again? Kind've like a problem that'll just keep coming back?
How do you avoid things such as this?
How do you avoid things such as this?
supreme
New member
Correction of a pelvic tilt is most commonly fixed by balancing out the length / tension relationships of the involved musculature. In an anterior tilt usually you have tight & short lumbar erectors and /or tight hip flexors with corresponding weak / lengthened hamstrings and/ or lower abdominal area.
fixing it usually is simple; you stretch the short & tight and strengthen the long and weak. you prevent it from coming back by training in the proper order and maintaining flexibility in the tight muscles. If treated properly, it should not come back. Be careful of the corrective program, sometimes they are overdone and the tlit goes from anterior to posterior instead of neutral pelvis because the the exercise intensity was too high or too long in duration
S
fixing it usually is simple; you stretch the short & tight and strengthen the long and weak. you prevent it from coming back by training in the proper order and maintaining flexibility in the tight muscles. If treated properly, it should not come back. Be careful of the corrective program, sometimes they are overdone and the tlit goes from anterior to posterior instead of neutral pelvis because the the exercise intensity was too high or too long in duration
S
Tom Treutlein
New member
Damn, that's gonna be hard to figure out on my own. Any way to figure out whether your tilt is anterior or posterior?
