Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Lesaman69 said:

I waited for the 5x5 "review" by vicious. And as i thought, i didnt´get disappointed, his answer is up. He now showed an optimization of the dual factor 5x5. What an jackass.

With every post, he shows more and more idiotic thoughts. Just another 100lbs expert.

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I think his optimization is more concerned with making sure the body is in the best state possible to handle the program before beginning. Not necessarily a bad thing. There has been at least one person here who was training heavy and went right into it and just burned himself right now. Given that it's a spectrum, I'm sure there are a few that wound up with suboptimal gains from not getting enough rest and recovery beforehand.

He's pretty technically inclined and interested in the internal "bio-mechanisms" of it. Whether what he says is true or not, I can't say. I really doubt anyone can at that level, conclusively at least. It's probably a valid theory though. Frankly it's an area that I don't know in depth enough to truly evaluate unless something is glaringly wrong. It's one thing to have a theory but it's another thing to have an encompassing grasp of the entire body of research in the area in order to really evaluate and see if there are contradictions (this is the same in any field and the one I know at this level isn't related to exercise science - to be honest, no one knows an entire field at this level but mainly portions or specialty interests).

Obviously he knows it works and what's behind it. Maximal strength increases in a valid hypertrophy range in the most stimulative compound lifts will drive strong adaptation. Caloric excess will provide the means for the body to adapt with hypertrophy. As long as caloric excess isn't rediculously out of line, it will be mostly muscle. That's the utilitarian view along with proper balance in factors and loading tailored to the individual.

Now, I can't speak to his successes and I don't know the guy but I don't see anything terribly out of line. Also, something to keep in mind is that some of the best coaches and training minds are not the most successful - I'd say in most cases they've had very limited success relative to the athletes they coach (and this is accross many sports - think golf for instance). Perhaps it was a passion to make the most out of their limited resources that allowed them to accumulate knowledge and really build an understanding. Maybe just love of the sport. I've generally found the HST guys to be pretty knowledgable. I'm not familiar with them all or even many and I've never read anything from vicious I don't believe but the few I've seen are generally really open minded, interested in learning, and open to re-evaluating if compelling evidence is presented to the contrary - that's a pretty good recipe for learning and success.

Anyway, that was more time than I could spare. I'm going to have to make some excuse to the boys in NYC for getting my stuff in late. I hope that sheds some light though.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Tolerance to Workload - A Paradigm Shift

This came up in super_rice's thread on his experience with Stephen Korte's 3x3 program (THREAD HERE )when the conversation touched on the Smolov squat cycle. I think it's incredibly valuable to understand and is a fundemental concept of training and progression (i.e. a basic piece of knowledge). Unfortunately, it is probably the least understood concept in most commercial gyms and certainly fitness/bodybuilding.

Do you think these programs were designed with testosterone, or similar, supplementation taken for granted? I guess the program is probably fine for anyone with decent conditioning and if you have supra-human recovery then you can extend it with assitance work.

I've read reviews of the Smolov routine which have pretty much said forget any idea of attempting the full program if you're natural.

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Madcow2 said:

Work capacity varies drastically and most people have none or train fairly infrequently and don't put much volume into the big lifts so they lack conditioning. I've done the 3x3 natural and although hard I never thought of quitting it (except during the deads) and it worked well. Many others have done the same. Super_Rice isn't exactly a world level lifter and aside from conditioning in his lower back he made it through with hard work - actually I thought it was too much for him to bite off at this stage so I am really impressed and obviously he's reaped the rewards from it. The 5x5 can be racheted up magnitudes harder than I have it set and combined with all kind of other overlay work - this is tolerated fine by well conditioned naturals (visit www.midwestbarbell.com forums sometime and check out Glenn's posts in the OL forum his lifters backsquat and frontsquat quite a bit and the classic lifts are trained with high volume and hammer them too and this involves a lot of deep squat recoveries - probably more than I can or ever was in shape to handle though). I've tried an OL program straight from a world champ who ran it natural without issue - I was dead in 2 weeks even scaling it back a good amount, literally no point in going on.

So the Smolov is really hard, plenty of well conditioned naturals have done it (I haven't run it myself). Probably have to benchmark what else you can do besides the squatting fairly carefully depending on the individual. The fact that some say you have to be on drugs to do it is more indicative of the level of general conditioning in most trainees today. Probably the best in our country are our top olympic lifters and let me tell you, when some of our up and comers have visited former Soviet and Eastern European countries - they are awed by just how damn hard those guys train and what they can do both drugged and non-drugged. This is not a rare reaction and it's not like these aren't some hard working guys already. They know how to train and they bust their ass. They've spent years increasing their capacity and workloads (a foreign concept to most trainees). Most people don't know how to train and have only busted their ass in the parameters of low frequency programs where a lot of the volume lies in lighter assistance work. They go in and hope that by doing some random crap they'll get stronger. They never think to systematically alter the load and scale it over time or spend their time on the exercises that really matter.

Am I surprised to hear this reaction, no. Do I agree with it, no. Do I think the people who have this reaction lack a reference for what the human body can handle, yes. Should these people be doing this program, no.

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biggt said:

Excellent post Madcow.

What people don't understand is how to develop their capicity for work. the base shouldn't only be expanded vertically to use more weights, it must be expander wider. Adding more sets, more volume.

Most people with a 405x5 squat would do something like this/.....135x10-225x10-315x5-405x5.......the only set worth a crap for a 405 squatter is the last one. This is fine as an 'amping-up' phase or a deload phase or a phase of reduced volume or whatever........but most trainees keep volume this low all year, never expanding work capicity. And, like Madcow said, they only thing they pound away with set after set after set is accessory stuff. In a loading period, I recently did an OHP workout, where 4x5 was my warm-up, I then did 5 singles, and then 3x5 as backoff sets. I don't and certainly can't do that year round, but at times limits need to be pushed, the base must be expanded not only up, but out.

People need to get out of the mindset of this...."okay, bench today.....135x8-225x8-275x5-315x2, then a bunch of flyes and hammer strength machines for 2 hours". .........It is okay to hammer away at the core lifts.

I don't want to rant, but this country is so brainwashed and misguided as a whole when it comes to strength training. there is just no access to good info. and therefore, a lack of interest in it. You can't walk into the supermarket and see MILO on the newsstand, but if you want FLEX, you've got your pick of the last 3 month' issues.

Point being, naturally, the body is capable of so much more than people think. Assisted, the body is capable of so much more than people think.

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super_rice said:

A lot of expanding work capacity has to do with expanding mental capacity and perspective. During the second week of Korte, I felt like I was in way over my head, but as third week rolled around, and I began to adapt, I was actually thinking of ways to increase the volume and scale up (which I did).

Rodney Wood brought up running another cycle right afterwards to really acclimatize, but since I will be a freshman in university come September, I decided to "scale down" with 5x5 and assistance work. Since Korte's, 5x5 really is not that hard the way it is written.

My point is, work capacity is as mental conditioning and perspective as it is physical conditioning. As you guys pointed out, we need to change the way we think and approach training.

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blut wump said:

Indeed, I see that a lot in the gym. There's one guy who benches exactly the same every time he's in: 135x5, 225x5, 315x5. He then moves to the machines. Last week he was complaining bitterly that he can't make six reps. I've seen him doing that same bench pattern for four months since I joined the gym.

Still, putting your rant aside, I'm still surprised that hardcore-seeming sites would fall into that mindset. My surprise is probably mostly a testament to the expectations that madcow has opened up on this forum, though. I spent a year having only 60 minutes to reach the gym do everything and get back to work. The compound exercises were too clearly the best bang for the buck not to spend most of my energy on them.

Thanks for the info madcow. Unless work gets in the way, I think I'm going to be starting the Korte after next week. My question was more geared to the Smolov than the Korte but even the Korte offers ranges of sets to play with for individual tolerances. The Smolov looks truly brutal but I think that six months ago I might have said the same of the Korte. The 5x5 felt uncomfortable when I first started to experience the five sets of five.

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Madcow2 said:

So that post and this whole section is going into the 5x5 thread and indexed.

It represents a paradigm shift in how most people think about training (which is sad because this isn't rocket science, this is foundation/must know stuff). Hence people's reaction to the Smolov or initially even the reaction here to the frequency of the compound lifts in the 5x5 - which I think at this point enough people have gotten good gains and seen others routinely make solid progress (and more than a few have said the best progress of their lives) that they realize it not only can work for them but is pretty tolerable for just about the whole population providing it is setup correctly.

A) You don't need 7 days of rest before training a muscle again (Although there are times in a macro plan when such frequency can serve a purpose)

B) You don't hold volume constant and only play with intensity.

Granted it's easy to make cookie cutter programs geared to the workload tolerance of the least common denominator (LCD), because only varying intensity has a smaller effect on workload and tolerances to workload vary widely with experience and between individuals of the same experience. But this is a shoddy way to coach because it's only optimal for the few who are the LCD and the goal is to get optimal performance out of each individual - and you don't get that with cookie cutters even though it might be nice to sit on your butt and not have to do your job.

Now as an individual, it's even worse because YOUR optimal performance really matters to YOU and you are then playing the odds in hope that you are the LCD or not very far away from it. God forbid you are experienced with a high tolerance and complain because the built-in defense mechanism is to say "Well, look at these guys - they did great. You need to work harder." Obviously this goes the other way in people taking on a program that is too much for them and you get "Those guys are on drugs. Nobody can do that. I tried it and overtrained."

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This isn't really a question about anything important, so slap me if you feel like it, but I just got back from the gym and I realized a problem. I've always assumed the standard weight of every bench-press/squat/deadlift/row bar was 45 pounds. At my gym, there are 2 flat bench press racks, and each has a different bar with one brownish and the other one silver. I always used the copper-colored brownish bar assuming it was 45 pounds. To see if they were both the same weight, I tried using the silver bar to do my set of 3 today with the same weights I'd use on the brownish bar, and I tried twice and was only able to push one rep. I then went back to the good ol' copper bar and was able to, as expected, push it up for 3 reps. I'll stick with the copper bar from now on since that's the one I've been using and know where I'm at on it, but I now really have no clue what amount I'm benching anymore. The gym employees just said "Interesting. I thought they were both 45 pounds". Hmmmm....

bump for my ? incase you missed it

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

TheOak84 said:

dear madcow,

can you give me an example routine for when i finish the 5x5?

im confused about how much volume to use and the frequency...

and how long should i stay on it? i dont think i took a long enough break between each 5x5 routine (only 3 weeks)

i think after this my body can take a rest from all this squatting

many thanx

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Tough one. I just have no reference for you to build something - it's kind of impossible to coach over the internet without very close communication and even then it's rolling dice. I'd probably take it easy for a while. I think the last time you finished you were still working hard, did a lot of high reps, and then hit maxes which may have thrown your recovery before beginning again - sort of starting off in a ditch so to speak.

Maybe do some higher rep training for a period. Depending on how you feel at the very end take at least 1-2 light weeks. Maybe figure out weak points in your lifts or something you believe to be lagging. Work on that. I'd set aside 4 weeks and if you are progressing and happy then continue. Make sure the first 2 are light if you are using that 3x per week intensity phase. Hell, maybe take the first week completely off if you feel like it. You've been training hard for a while.

Anyway, I'm rambling:
1) Light 1-2 weeks, maybe first week off
2) Do some higher rep work for a while
3) Work on targeted assistance lifts and lifts that you like but haven't been able to do under the 5x5
4) Set aside at least 4 weeks. Probably 6 with the first two light. Maybe 8 and make it a whole training cycle with 2-3 light/deload 2 acclimation 2 heavy load and 2 deload. With two deload weeks on the end you should be fresh again but play it by ear.
5) Maybe look at HST and how they do their high rep work, If you are recovered enough look at the DFHT stuff. Just get some ideas.
6) Have fun and enjoy.

Not really an answer but hopefully enough ideas to get you started. I can't really tell you for volume and frequency but slash both. 2x per week at the most (maybe try that week off if you are really beat up), this time I wouldn't push high intensity. Just chill and lower everything and get some recovery for a week or so.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

KhorneDeth said:

First off, terrific thread here. I've gone a couple cycles of the 5x5 to great excitement and progress before taking a few weeks off due to life schedule.

I'm getting back into it soon and my question is regarding the replacement of back squats with front squats. My issue is two-fold:

1) the only gym I have semi-convenient access to (read: close to home and FREE) does not have any type of real squatting apparatus.... only a damn smith machine. I've been squatting steadily in the smith for about a year now, but the more I read the more I want to get away from this practice and squat entirely free-weight. With nowhere to rack the bar, this leaves me with variations like hack, zercher, front, etc. Of these, I'm assuming fronts are the best alternative to normal ATG back squats -- please correct me if I'm wrong.

2) assuming front squats are the next best substitute, my second concern is that I've never in my life performed them! I've read elsewhere from madcow and others that there's nothing to do but just start ultralight and gradually build solid form and technique.

So my question then is: can I substitue the 3x week smith-squat training with 3x (or 2x?) week front squat training? Namely, can I perform the rest of the Starr 5x5 routine as normal, while learning and improving with the front squat? If so, how should things be adjusted (since obviously loading/deloading factors will be drastically altered)?

If this is not a desirable approach, how/what type of training routine should I try to set up to emphasize my attempts to learn a new movement while avoiding the typical 1x wk lifting of standard BB routines? From taking the past few weeks off, I'm currently deloaded and ready for anything.

Open to suggestions!

-- KhorneDeth

Edited to add, I found this in a recent post by Madcow:



This seems like sound advice, but would you advocate eventually replacing smith back squats entirely, rather than just "factoring its impact"? (At least, until I convince them to spring for a power rack, hehe). And in the meantime, would you advocate continuing to use the smith machine while training the 5x5?

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Fuck - why is it that everyone's gym doesn't have a rack. I've seen this like 3 times this week. I imagine you don't have a rack to take front squats from either? It's kind of like not having a barbell or weights - makes it really tough because rigging up something to use like pails of rock and an axel is almost impossible. Personally, I'd scour for a cheap set of these: http://www.musclemaxx.net/squat_stand.htm and give them to the gym. Be done with it or take the cash and try a different gym. Hell, you can find some cheap sets for home too and benches with squat racks built in for $200ish - used probably even below 100. That, a bar and some weight and you are rolling.

If you have a rack to take the front squat from then great. It's going to take time to learn the movement though. I'm guessing you've never squatted at all. The front squat is tough to learn alone and just about everyone botches it because they don't know how to hold the bar - there's a front/back squat thread on the forum right now. Give it a read. Try to phase in the fronts while continuing with the smith. Get them in gradually and work on your technique. If you have to clean the weight, go ahead and try but that's a learning curve all on it's own.

Anyway. You need to be able to squat. It's just crucial. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm dumping on you but so many people have totally inadequate facilities and there's nothing I can do. This isn't a fufu program. It's real training and you need at least the basics. It's cheap to set up right in your home if you want. Gyms are cheap too but there's only so much I can do if you can't do the basic movements. This program is based on squatting. Squatting is fundemental to increasing strength and size. Better to not bench than not squat.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

MR Pink said:

Madcow,

I don't know if this question has been asked before (I'm only at page 15 of this thread and want to start monday with this routine)

For the alternative deload/intensity phase you wrote the following:


Alternative Deload/Intensity:
This is really the one that most people should be doing. If you don't handle the other correctly you can blow your program but I didn't want to switch it and confuse people.

Week 5 and on switch to 3x3 and drop the Friday workout altogether. Week 5 weights are the same as the final week of volume. Over the next 2-3 weeks increase increase the weight workout to workout if you get all 9 reps. If you don't get all the reps, week the weight constant. You'll likely be able to move straight back into another volume phase after this is complete.

Monday:
Oly squats: 3x3
Bench: 3x3
Rows: 3x3

Wednesday (or move this workout to Thursday if you'd like)
Light Oly Squats (70% of monday): 3x3
Deadlifts: 3x3
Military Press: 3x3
Chins:3x3

My question: Do I only have to do the 3x3 throughout this phase or are there still 1x3 days as given in your core discription? This question is regarding the intensity phase not the deloading phase

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Use the above. You do it in the deload week (week 5) and then for another 2-3 weeks (weeks 6 and 7 - week 8 if you wish). The 1x3 and 3x per week stuff is an entirely different way of handling the next phase. I'll likely redo my description and shift that to the bottom to alleviate confusion.

MR Pink said:

Other questions:

1.If I can't do 5x5 pull ups and only be able to hit 5 reps the first 3 sets...should I do the pull ups with a little help from a spotter or finish the last 2 sets on a lat pull down machine

2. Do you lock out your elbows with the military's?

3. And are the pr's you set in weeks 3 and 4 based on your 1 rm (the one you had before this routine) or on the 5x5 you could do before this routine?

Thanks

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1. Not really important. Do the first few free, and try to get whatever you can. If it's abysmal - use the pulldown if it's a couple reps, fine.

2. Sometimes . I happen to like locking out heavy weight overhead. Driving your head forward and having he weight centered feels powerful. The idea of keeping constant tension on the muscles is pretty overrated. You put the deadlift back every rep - still a phenomenal mass builder. Most people will lock out their heavy squats - still works. This is minutia stuff and unmeasurable.

3. PRs are for 1x5 and 5x5 before the program. Be flexible in your planning and weights the first time. Start conservatively, plan it out but keep a critical eye on the upcomming weeks. A lot of people aren't used to this and tend to get stronger throughout the first phase so their targets move. Nothing wrong with taking 5 or 6 weeks and starting lighter. Just make sure you are pounding at your best the final 2 weeks and don't build up too fast before hand.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2 said:

Tough one. I just have no reference for you to build something - it's kind of impossible to coach over the internet without very close communication and even then it's rolling dice. I'd probably take it easy for a while. I think the last time you finished you were still working hard, did a lot of high reps, and then hit maxes which may have thrown your recovery before beginning again - sort of starting off in a ditch so to speak.

Maybe do some higher rep training for a period. Depending on how you feel at the very end take at least 1-2 light weeks. Maybe figure out weak points in your lifts or something you believe to be lagging. Work on that. I'd set aside 4 weeks and if you are progressing and happy then continue. Make sure the first 2 are light if you are using that 3x per week intensity phase. Hell, maybe take the first week completely off if you feel like it. You've been training hard for a while.

Anyway, I'm rambling:
1) Light 1-2 weeks, maybe first week off
2) Do some higher rep work for a while
3) Work on targeted assistance lifts and lifts that you like but haven't been able to do under the 5x5
4) Set aside at least 4 weeks. Probably 6 with the first two light. Maybe 8 and make it a whole training cycle with 2-3 light/deload 2 acclimation 2 heavy load and 2 deload. With two deload weeks on the end you should be fresh again but play it by ear.
5) Maybe look at HST and how they do their high rep work, If you are recovered enough look at the DFHT stuff. Just get some ideas.
6) Have fun and enjoy.

Not really an answer but hopefully enough ideas to get you started. I can't really tell you for volume and frequency but slash both. 2x per week at the most (maybe try that week off if you are really beat up), this time I wouldn't push high intensity. Just chill and lower everything and get some recovery for a week or so.

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sounds good, i was thinking... i talked to this guy at my gym a few times, he reads alot of simmons, bill star and other powerlifting/strongmen material, and i wanna train more like that.

i like the 5x5 layout, but i also wanna work on speed with chains and bands.
i have a squat rack, flat/incline bench, pully system and tons of dumbbells/paltes in my garage.. all the stuff i need. so, i can do all that work in my garage.

can i switch between a 5x5 routine and a west side barbell routine, with little cycles in between? ive done both before, and liked them alot.

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

TheOak84 said:

sounds good, i was thinking... i talked to this guy at my gym a few times, he reads alot of simmons, bill star and other powerlifting/strongmen material, and i wanna train more like that.

i like the 5x5 layout, but i also wanna work on speed with chains and bands.
i have a squat rack, flat/incline bench, pully system and tons of dumbbells/paltes in my garage.. all the stuff i need. so, i can do all that work in my garage.

can i switch between a 5x5 routine and a west side barbell routine, with little cycles in between? ive done both before, and liked them alot.

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Absolutely. Designing a program or macroscycle is all about what it is that you want to do with your training. WSB is great. You can add DE/chains/bands and such to the 5x5 also. You can also rotate in special exercises and some such. It's really just a template. Just plan out say 6 months and try to address your needs over that time frame using anything whether that's WSB, BS 5x5, you could even try DFST (check out the Animalmass programs sticky on Meso). Just build it out and alter it as needed while you work through

All of this talk about taking week-offs and stuff is only for the dual-factor, right? I'd like to be able to stick with just doing the single-factor without changing my routine for quite a while. Also, in a post before I was posting about how my top set for my bench is my absolute MAX for that amount of reps. Monday doing it for 5 reps was my 5-rep max, and yesterday my set of 3 was my absolutely 3-rep max. How will I know if I should increase the weights on bench for next week?