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Drugs don't work!!!

Nelson Montana

Chairman of Board
Chairman Member
Well, not for everything.

Ask yourself this question...

"WHAT DRUG WILL IMPROVE THE IMMUNITY SYSTEM?"

Answer: None.

If fact, any drug needed to support the immunity, such as an antibiotic , will cause a SUPPRESSION of the immunity system. But if the drug is needed in a life threatening situation, you use it. Then when you're over the danger period, you can recover.

Well, it's the same with PCT.

We use steroids, because they will do what the body cannot do its own. Then, when you no longer produce LH you may need a drug like HCG to recover. But then what? Well, what most people do is the dumbest thing you can do -- they rely on more drugs! In some cases it's Clomid -- which I think is a terrible idea because, first of all, it doesn't work on everybody and it can also actually raise estrogen.

That should be a surprise because that's Clomids medical purpose. That's why I think it's so hilarious when guys say "I don't want no natural shit, I need a REAL PCT drugs!" and they go about using something for breast cancer or something to increase estrogen in infertile women. BRILLIANT!

Secondly, even if there's a temporary elevation in testosterone from these drugs, the body has become reliant on the drug to do it. The effects never last once the drug use is ended. Now there will be those who argue that point, but I have proof. It's called a century of medical science. Just as an anti-biotic doesn't increase your natural ability to fight infection , no drug increases your natural ability to produce testosterone. It's NOT what drugs do. They are a temporary fix -- afterward you have to finish recovery on your own. That's how real world medical practices work.

So where does that leave us? Well, the short answer is it leaves a lot of guys who never fully recover. That's why it's become commonplace to recommend HRT for men in their 30's when you still should be producing buckets of testosterone on your own at that age. Hell, I USED STEROIDS and I didn't need HRT until I was 47. And that was after going through an intense period of stress. (Parents dying). I'd say it's a fair estimation to say that HRT shouldn't be needed until you're around 50. And you have steroid experts on HRT at 35. What does that tell you about their "expertise."

It's time to stop the madness of the parroted ignorance regarding PCT. An anti gyno drug has nothing to do with recovering the HPTA. NOTHING. And a synthetic estrogen that causes mood swings, impotence and vision problems ain't that great either. Use something that is DESIGNED TO TREAT THE CONDITION. Something that supports the body's natural ability to recover and produce testosterone on its own.

In a nutshell -- while "on" use HCGenerate to keep LH high, N2GUARD to protect against toxicity and support the immunity system and Formastanazol to keep estrogen in check.

After the cycle -- UNLEASHED to lower SHBG and increase Free Testosterone and maintain libido and POST CYCLE http://www.needtobuildmuscle.com/store/Test-boosting-PCT/Post-Cycle-Double-Pack-p40.html to balance estrogen, detox liver and prevent erectile dysfunction.


After PCT Use BRIDGE to maintain gains until the next cycle.

There it is. You can call it hype, you can call it promotion, you can call it whatever you want, but it's the truth. This works. Anyone who's used this PCT correctly will tell you the same thing. Those who are ignorant of it, will be the only ones arguing the point.

Wake up and smell the 21st century. PCT is a time to get OFF of drugs -- not use more that will weaken you. Let you body get as strong as possible. Do it smart. Do it right.
 
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Dang Nelson that is a really good pc there. Thanks bro!!
 
That's the PCT I use after every cycle and I swear by it. I add 25mgs of clomid though cause it gives me better results, but Nelson knows what he's talking about.
 
Thanks, I hope it helps some people understand how they can do gear and still stay healthy .
 
Actually Nelson, some AAS do help immuno function by direct effects on progesterone, which is a potent anti-inflammitory.

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There are benefits while anabolics, no doubt. But it's indirect and offset by the side effects, so it's a wash. Incidentally, I wrote a piece back in 197 called "Steroids For Health.")

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As for SERMs not raising LH, FSH and T in hypogondal males, there is ample evidence to support that claim and notion.

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Not really. All speculation and misinterpretations. (Uh oh, here come the flawed studies I just know it).

..................................

In a recent study done on Tamox, Tore and Rolax comparing HPTA restoration. Tamoxifen can out on top. In 8 weeks, 20mg/ED of Tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 (+70%) and Test from 496.59 to 835.06 (+71%). After two months, 60mg/day of Toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 (+25%) and Test from 496.59 to 709.79 (+42%).

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Right. And what happened after the drug was stopped? Get back to me on that one.




The effect of selective estrogen receptor modulato... [Fertil Steril. 2009] - PubMed result[/url

That's to treat infertility. A separate thing And all it says is that tamoxaphine was better than the others, but no numbers as to how well it worked.



]



..
 
An "anti-gyno drug" does effect the HPTA by blocking the ER in the hypothalamus (feedback loop), therefore raises GnrRH, LH, FSH and T.

.............................................

Lower estro does not mean higher T. A common mistake.

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Tamoxifen and Clomid are actually given to hypogondal males across the world to treat 'low testosterone' in males with very low or no side effects at all in males.
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Yeah, but it often doesn't work -- and when it does, it's only while on the drug. Afterwards, T levels drop even lower.




Why is always the guys with 3 posts who want to dispute this?
.....
 
You see, the thing is.

If someone pulls you out on shit, you delete their message(s), as you have done my last 2 posts.

You have no fucking clue what your talking about at all.

Why cant you man up and have a decent debate with someone? Why? Because you'de look like the clown.

You dont even know the MOA of SERMs and AI's...

Coupla of things.

DO NOT talk disrespectfully to anyone on this board. Especially a senior member. You have 4 fucking posts and you're starting shit. Not a good start. That crap doesn't fly here.

#2: I've been at this probably longer than you've been alive, have had hundreds of pieces published in the field and I'm going to go out on a limb and say I know at least as much about it as you do.

#3. Don't act like an ass. Don;t think you know it all. Don't assume you know more than others. You don't.

#4: You didn't call me out on anything. I showed you where you're wrong. Listen and learn.
 
You see, the thing is.

If someone pulls you out on shit, you delete their message(s), as you have done my last 2 posts.

You have no fucking clue what your talking about at all.

Why cant you man up and have a decent debate with someone? Why? Because you'de look like the clown.

You dont even know the MOA of SERMs and AI's...

I am editing your post...... and giving you a warning.

debate all you want.. but you need to leave out the personal attacks. that won't be tolerated on here. if you have a disagreement with someone take it to a private message and act diplomatic with them. dont come on the board and start calling people clowns. I see it again and you will be timed out.

this debate is passionate on both sides and I am somewhat in the middle on it but its always good to have them because in the end everyone can make their own decisions.. thats what the board is for. but please be respectful!
 
This kid should be banned from posting for a while, he's 5 posts in and just starting shit & obviously fairly misguided.
 
hi
im sorry to barge in like this but i got confused because of the post and the comments
which was it clomid and nolva ?
or what Mr nelson said of Unleashed ??
at the page of the unleashed it says at the end. Unleashed stacks well with the PCT
does that mean it need to be added to the Nolva, clomid or just Unleashed by it self will be sufficient ?????
 
we will not advance in the bodybuilding world if we do not keep talking and discussing things.

this industry is slow to evolve because of the legality and no one talks about this stuff outside the board, we are all ignorant without these boards.. so let the debate rage on.
 
Just jumping in to say that an uncontrolled study proves nothing. It's just observation.
A double blind controlled study would give your remarks more weight.
There is a pretty rigorous scientific process to determine whether drugs are effective and in the best interests/with the least risks for the person taking the drugs.
Simply following 12 people and observing their results is meaningless to your argument.
 
I'm all for debate, but when you delete my posts when they are clearly not breaking any rules, what does that mean?

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IT MEANS YOU CLEARLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. INSULTING PEOPLE IS AGAINST THE RULES. THIS ISN'T 9TH GRADE. ACT LIKE AN ADULT OR LEAVE. THIS IS THE LAST WARNING. I DON'T HAVE TIME TO EXPLAIN PROPER BEHAVIOR TO YOU.



....................................................................



Do you know what the androgen:estrogen ratio is?

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THAT'S SNOTTY. YOU'RE BATTING 1000 KID.



.........................................




It means when an AI is taken and the body senses a lowered estrogen level, the body then compensates and raises testosterone output. So you statement of, "lowering estrogen dose not always mean increasing testosterone" is flat wrong.

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WELL, THAT'S JUST A PIECE OF THE EQUATION. THERE ARE MANY VARIABLES. AND SOMONE CAN HAVE LOW ESTRO AND LOW T. IF ALL IT TOOK WAS LOWERING ESTRO, THEN WE CAN JUST TAKE AI'S AND NOT STEROIDS. BESIDES, CLOMID IS AN ESTROGEN. SO ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC, IT'LL LOWER TESTOSTERONE.


...................................................................



There was a study done on obese patients (high estrogen) given Letro at 2.5mg/wk and the outcome - testosterone rose by 4x.
..........................

AGAIN -- MANY VARIABLES. IF THEY HAD SUPERPHYSIOLOGICAL LEVELS OF ESTRO, YES, THERE WOULD BE A SLIGHT ELEVATION OF T IF THEY WERE NORMALIZED. BUT THAT DOSEN'T MEAN THAT THE LOWER THE ESTRO, THE HIGHER THE TEST. THAT'S WHERE YOU TOOK A LITTLE BIT OF INFORMATION AND DREW AN ERRONEOUS CONCLUSION.

YOU'RE WELCOME.


....
 
Letrozole once a week normalizes serum testosterone in obesity-related male hypogonadism

  1. Departments of1Internal Medicine2Clinical Chemistry, Ziekenhuis Rijnstate, Wagnerlaan 55, 6800 TA Arnhem, The Netherlands
  1. (Correspondence should be addressed to H de Boer; Email:
Abstract

Objective Isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) is frequently observed in severely obese men, probably as a result of increased estradiol (E2) production and E2-mediated negative feedback on pituitary LH secretion. Aromatase inhibitors can reverse this process. This study evaluates whether letrozole once a week can normalize serum testosterone in severely obese men and maintain its long term effect.

Design Open, uncontrolled 6-month pilot study in 12 severely obese men (body mass index>35.0 kg/m2) with obesity-related IHH and free testosterone levels <225 pmol/l, treated with 2.5 mg letrozole once a week for 6 months.

Results Six weeks of treatment reduced total E2 from 123±11 to 58±7 pmol/l (P<0.001, mean±s.e.m.), and increased serum LH from 4.4±0.6 to 11.1±1.5 U/l (P<0.001). Total testosterone rose from 5.9±0.5 to 19.6±1.4 nmol/l (P<0.001), and free testosterone from 163±13 to 604±50 pmol/l (P<0.001). Total testosterone rose to within the normal range in all subjects, whereas free testosterone rose to supraphysiological levels in 7 out of 12 men. The testosterone and E2 levels were stable throughout the week and during the 6-month treatment period.


Conclusion Letrozole 2.5 mg once a week produced a sustained normalization of serum total testosterone in obese men with IHH. However, free testosterone frequently rose to supraphysiological levels. Therefore, a starting dose <2.5 mg once a week is recommended.

Thank you for that. It works WHILE ON. (Like I said in the original post). It doesn't cure anything or return levels simply from using it. It's a drug that treats a symptom.

Also...

A: They're talking about letro -- which I always recommend over clomid and nolva.


Thank you for that as well.


Case closed. Point proven.
 
Just jumping in to say that an uncontrolled study proves nothing. It's just observation.
A double blind controlled study would give your remarks more weight.
There is a pretty rigorous scientific process to determine whether drugs are effective and in the best interests/with the least risks for the person taking the drugs.
Simply following 12 people and observing their results is meaningless to your argument.

That too.

Yet we seem to have to explain this to someone who just joined the board every few weeks.

But what gets me is that they're not at all curious. They're just arrogant and have attitude and think the world is waiting to hear what brilliance they're about the spout. I mean, after all, they cut and paste a study!
 
That too.

Yet we seem to have to explain this to some who just joins the board.

But what gets me is that they're not at all curious. They're just arrogant and have attitude and think the world is waiting to hear what brilliance they're about the spout. I mean, after all, they cut and paste a study!

If we knew all there was to know about the human body there would be no need for any new thought at all. Thankfully that's not the case. I agree with your advice (reading between the lines here) to be careful with unwanted side effects from taking some kinds of PCT.
Hell, I'm not even a guy, and it makes sense to me. Then again, I would not take AAS under any circumstances, even if I were a guy. I'm a bit cautious that way.
 
The effects of aging in normal men on bioavailable testosterone and luteinizing hormone secretion: response to clomiphene citrate.

Tenover JS, Matsumoto AM, Plymate SR, Bremner WJ.

Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Veterans Administration Medical Center, Seattle, Washington.

Serum testosterone (T) levels in men decline with age while serum LH levels, as measured by RIA, increase. To assess if the decline in serum T levels in healthy aging men is paralleled by an age-related decline in the bioavailable non-sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG)-bound fraction of T and to determine whether there are age-related changes in LH secretion or LH control of T production, we studied 29 young (aged 22-35 yr) and 26 elderly (aged 65-84 yr) healthy men. All men had single random blood samples drawn, and 14 men in each age group underwent frequent blood sampling for 24 h, both before and after 7 days of clomiphene citrate (CC) administration. Both mean 24-h serum total T levels and non-SHBG-bound T were reduced in elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), while estradiol and SHBG levels were similar in the 2 age groups. Serum FSH determined by RIA and LH by RIA and bioassay were higher in the elderly men compared to those in young men (P less than 0.05), but the ratios of LH bioactivity to immunoreactivity and the LH pulse frequency and amplitude were similar. After CC administration, mean serum total T and non-SHBG-bound levels in young men increased by 100% and 304%, respectively, while in older men these values increased by only 32% and 8%, respectively. However, CC-stimulated LH pulse characteristics and serum levels of estradiol, SHBG, FSH, and bioactive and immunoreactive LH were similar in the 2 groups. Thus, both at baseline and after CC stimulation, elderly men had significantly lower serum total T and non-SHBG-bound (bioavailable) T levels than did young men, despite similar or increased levels of bioactive LH and similar bioactive to immunoreactive LH ratios and LH pulse characteristics. These results suggest that major age-related changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis occur at the level of the testes and are manifested by decreased responsiveness to bioactive LH. Administration of CC to young and elderly men resulted in similar changes in LH pulse characteristics and LH bioactivity and immunoreactivity, suggesting preserved hypothalamic-pituitary responsiveness in the elderly.

Healthy young men given CC. After 7 days TT rose by 100-304%.


Jesus, are we going to go over the same shit over and over? Did you actually read this or are we just playing," cut and paste any study?"

This proved my point once again. Elevation occurred in young men, not older men -- meaning that they recovered after several months, which would occur naturally in young men. ANd there's no mention of how they felt in the interim.

And for the fifth time, no report on what the levels were one month after cessation of use.

You're not getting this, are you?
 
I'm not sure any of you subscribe to Dr. Michael Scally's work, but here is one of his patients treated with HCG, Clomid, Tamox:


STREET C, SCALLY MC. Pharmaceutical Intervention of Anabolic Steroid Induced
Hypogonadism - Our Success at Restoration of the HPG Axis. Medicine and Science in Sports
and Exercise 2000;32(5)Suppl.
High-dose anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) administration results in hypogonadotropic
hypogonadism (HH). Physical manifestations can include one or more of the following:
depression, decreased sexual desire, impotence, feelings of apathy, testicular atrophy, and loss of
muscle mass and strength. Due to feedback inhibition, laboratory values drop well below
established physiologic norms: luteinizing hormone (LH) >3.6 IU/L, follicle stimulating
hormone (FSH) >2.25 IU/L, and testosterone (T) >300 ng/dL. A search of the literature reveals
an absence of studies dealing specifically with AAS induced HH, and restoration of normal
endocrine function. We report on two interesting cases of AAS using bodybuilders who were
brought out of the hypogonadal state. Blood samples were taken in the morning for both subjects
and analyzed using chemiluminescence (Quest Diagnostics, Irvine, TX). Post-therapy samples
were taken 15 days after the last hCG injection.

Case 1: 6'0" 206 lbs. 33 yr old Caucasian male
with a 10+ year history of steroid self-administration for bodybuilding and powerlifting. By his
own admission he was a "heavy" user, taking from 500 mg/wk to 2+ grams/wk. Pre-treatment
values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 191 ng/dL. One course of therapy (32 days) was given: 2,500 IU of
hCG every 4 days (8 injections total), 50 mg clomiphene bid and 10 mg tamoxifen qd
. Despite
massive drug use patient was an exceptionally good responder. Post-treatment values: LH 5.2
IU/L, T 1072 ng/dL.


Case 2: 5'10" 184 lbs 36 yr old Caucasian male with a 2 yr history of
continuous nandrolone use (200-400 mg/wk).
Pre-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 45 ng/dL.

Treat 1
(32 days): 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (8 total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and arimidex (1 mg qd).
Post-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 38 ng/dL.

Treat 2 (60 days): 5,000 IU hCG every 4 days (4 inj
total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (4 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen
(10 mg qd). Post-values: LH > 1.4 IU/L, T 63 ng/dL.

Treat 3 (32 days): 5,000 IU hCG qod (6 inj
total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG qod (6 inj total) given simultaneously with menotropins 150 IU
qod (6 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen (10 mg bid). Post-values: LH 9.8 IU/L,
T 507 ng/dL.

Restoration of the HPG axis, even in severe cases of hypogonadism, is possible
with combined therapies
and careful monitoring of the patient. With continued popularity of
these drugs, long-term androgen deficiency is a health concern for former AAS users. Further
research is needed in this area.

Oh good. I can make my point for the sixth time. In this case they used HCG, which certainly will raise T. Other than that they got nothing -- just some hopeful speculation with no evidence other the last line of the study. Read it again.

Anything else ya got?
 
iamnothere what exactly is ur point? Are u saying in order to gave a successful PCT u must use prescription drugs, and supplements like Unleashed don't work? Cuz I'm just getting confused with all fancy reports u keep posting.
 
When 90% of this board, falls into the category of "young men", why does that matter?

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BECAUSE NOBODY DOES A 6 MONTH PCT.



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SERMs, AI's are also given to aging men as a form of HRT, as opposed to TE injections too. But I agree the results on T when comparing ageing males and young males is not the same.

........................

ONLY OLD DOCTORS WHO ARE CLUELESS STILL PRESCRIBE CLOMID FOR HRT. ANYONE WORTH THEIR SALT PRESCRIBES ENTH.


I'VE DELETED THE REST OF THE POST BECAUSE IT'S GOING OVER THE SAME POINTS AND IT'S GETTING TEDIOUS.
 
I just want to let everyone know, that reason for these deletions is that the posts have become very antagonistic. By that, I mean the poster is simply ignoring what is being said and asking the same questions and making the same points (already disputed) over and over even though they've been addressed.

I know where this is going. It's a never ending game of ignoring the facts and badgering and prodding while hiding behind the "I didn't break any rules" excuse.

You said your piece. Enough.

Whenever this happens it's ALWAYS someone who just joined -- which suggests he's a trouble making troll or an ex banned member looking to be spiteful.
 
Someone needs to ban him....

He's gone.

We have a lot of tolerance here and welcome all opinions, debates, discussions and even arguments. But when someone is warned 10 times to stop antagonizing and their only retort is to antagonize -- DONE.

I'm just sorry the discussion got derailed. Hopefully it'll get back on track.
 
Wow, that's how you treat someone who has a different opinion,and tries to state some facts?

Nope. That's how someone who insults other members gets treated. There's a difference.

Also, his "facts" were indeed incorrect and I pointed out how and why. He chose to ignore that and keep stating the same thing over and over . That's not conversation. That's badgering and it's disruptive. After 5 warnings it's clear he didn't want to engage in any sensible conversation.

Hope that clears it up.
 
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You people are missing one thing.. For a drug to be ideal, your hormones has to be recovered after you stop using it. But that doesnt mean you use hcg clomid and get a blood test a week later. No , at very least one month..2-3 is much better.. Lots of researches are being posted in the claim of x drug working well.. you used hcg clomid and your test got up to 1000 ?? so what? you use test enanthate and your test goes to 2500.. It is the later months that matters..

btw high dose clomid and nolvadex(both from pharmacy) for 3 weeks and my test levels vere 237.. then 3 weeks of nothing and my test levels were over 800.. which is a perfect proof that they arent ideal for everyone.. I am not even counting the fact they fuck the hell out of your personality..

I used to be well against Nelson's ideas of PCT etc.. but he is damn right on most of the things.. At least , he is the least wrong among the "experts."

hcg clomid nolvadex adex bromo is PCT? You cannot reach homeostatis with 9309 different drugs
 
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You people are missing one thing.. For a drug to be ideal, your hormones has to be recovered after you stop using it. But that doesnt mean you use hcg clomid and get a blood test a week later. No , at very least one month..2-3 is much better.. Lots of researches are being posted in the claim of x drug working well.. you used hcg clomid and your test got up to 1000 ?? so what? you use test enanthate and your test goes to 2500.. It is the later months that matters..

btw high dose clomid and nolvadex(both from pharmacy) for 3 weeks and my test levels vere 237.. then 3 weeks of nothing and my test levels were over 800.. which is a perfect proof that they arent ideal for everyone.. I am not even counting the fact they fuck the hell out of your personality..

I used to be well against Nelson's ideas of PCT etc.. but he is damn right on most of the things.. At least , he is the least wrong among the "experts."

hcg clomid nolvadex adex bromo is PCT? You cannot rich homeostatis with 9309 different drugs


Bingo. All salient points.
 
I like Erase + strong AI such as Aromasin for PCT alongside with N2Guard. Good thing I don't see Nelson at some other forums I sometimes visit, I think he would rage non stop at the idiocy there. The amount of people that still swear by Nolva and Clomid and actively recommend them for PCT is astounding.
 
I like Erase + strong AI such as Aromasin for PCT alongside with N2Guard. Good thing I don't see Nelson at some other forums I sometimes visit, I think he would rage non stop at the idiocy there. The amount of people that still swear by Nolva and Clomid and actively recommend them for PCT is astounding.

It's just one of those things. A lot of people never heard of Beastdrol, but those who've used it knows it kicks ass. A lot of sites are just familiar with the books on drugs and the bullshit supplement companies so they're not willing to accept anything beyond their knowledge. But I know a lot of people who say they get horrible sides from nolve yet they STILL take it because they think they must!
 
Why is this a sticky? It doesn't give any novel ideas, in fact its the same stuff Nelson has been bitching about for years just approaching the concept from a different standpoint.

You don't even run PCT, Nelson. How come you're the authority on it?
 
Why is this a sticky? It doesn't give any novel ideas, in fact its the same stuff Nelson has been bitching about for years just approaching the concept from a different standpoint.

You don't even run PCT, Nelson. How come you're the authority on it?

It's obvious you're trying to combative, though I'm not sure why. You're also showing your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Why is anything a sticky? Because it contains relevant information that a lot of people, including newcomers, may want to see.

I have also run many PCT, so you're wrong -- which is fine, but don't make an accusation -- ask. Also, I have coached people with their PCT and studied the effects for about, oh, 15 years now. I'll guess that I've probably done more research on the subject than you.

So, I'm presenting my findings to the board. You okay with that? Good.
 
I am editing your post...... and giving you a warning.

debate all you want.. but you need to leave out the personal attacks. that won't be tolerated on here. if you have a disagreement with someone take it to a private message and act diplomatic with them. dont come on the board and start calling people clowns. I see it again and you will be timed out.

this debate is passionate on both sides and I am somewhat in the middle on it but its always good to have them because in the end everyone can make their own decisions.. thats what the board is for. but please be respectful!

Well said, Sir!

Thanks Nelson you always keep things interesting on here. Dont stop! I learn alot from these debates....
 
That's an aromatase inhibitor, not a SERM.

So what?

1. Your typical argument in your first post was building up the idea that breast cancer drugs are bad and listing some of the things they are designed for with encompassing the whole scope of their uses. Kind of a misrepresentation of the matter as an argument, beating it down and claiming victory - otherwise known as straw man rhetoric, a common logical fallacy. So you haven't proven that A is better than B yet.

2. Your misrepresentation of breast cancer drugs goes into avoiding Aromatase Inhibitors completely in your argument. Which are very affective at some of the things we intend to do with PCT.

3. Your argument of "natural is the way to go" is silly at best. It's like how some organic pesticides are much worse than synthetic ones. "well we should use this because its 'natural'" doesn't mean anything and isn't a valid argument unless you have studies, examples, data to back its superiority of the other product. Which leads to my next point:

4. The studying of affects on PCT that you've done and the reporting of findings is so poorly done that why would someone believe you if you weren't on this board for so long and have had some many posts and pull on the AAS board? How would I possibly discern your studies findings from the special interests you have in pushing these supplements? Is there not some kind of special interest or bias in your "studies" from the very beginning? (hint: there is). What's your sample size? Have you any formal training in statistical methods around studies, especially ones of this magnitude?

5. Perhaps it was premature of me to assume that you had not done PCT. I was under the assumption that you were on HRT which you would not have to do PCT. My apologies for the assumption and the original argument that now holds no water.

You're also showing your lack of knowledge on the subject.
How? I never claimed that I knew anything about the subject of PCT. My argument is against your [lack of] logic to prove points.

If you've done your homework, Nelson, then your first post would, at the very least, include HCG in its prescription form and Aromatase Inhibitors [both are drugs that do work, and work very well by the way]. Or else I suggest you retitle the article/thread "Nelson Montana's Opinion on how to do an all herbal PCT"

I don't doubt the effectiveness of the drugs or supplements listed in the first post. I haven't used them so I can't comment one way or another.
 
[b]
so what?

1. Your typical argument in your first post was building up the idea that breast cancer drugs are bad and listing some of the things they are designed for with encompassing the whole scope of their uses. Kind of a misrepresentation of the matter as an argument, beating it down and claiming victory - otherwise known as straw man rhetoric, a common logical fallacy. So you haven't proven that a is better than b yet.

...................................
i did no such thing. If anything your argument can be considered a strawman argument simply stating that it's misrepresentation and leaving it at that. Then you addied accusations which have been proven wrong. So this line of arguing goes nowhere. Next....
[
/i]


....................................................



2. Your misrepresentation of breast cancer drugs goes into avoiding aromatase inhibitors completely in your argument. Which are very affective at some of the things we intend to do with pct.


................................


I've recommended ai in the past. In fact, at one time people said i crazy to do so and that only serms worked. No you're making an argument for ai. Interesting. You're essentially arguing my point.
[/
b]



........................................


3. Your argument of "natural is the way to go" is silly at best. It's like how some organic pesticides are much worse than synthetic ones. "well we should use this because its 'natural'" doesn't mean anything and isn't a valid argument unless you have studies, examples, data to back its superiority of the other product. Which leads to my next point:

......................

I[i]t's not just about being natural. That was never my point. You missed that one big time. I've said hundreds of tiems that at some point the body has to take over in a natural state. That, is undeniable.
[
/b]


..............................

4. The studying of affects on pct that you've done and the reporting of findings is so poorly done that why would someone believe you if you weren't on this board for so long and have had some many posts and pull on the aas board? How would i possibly discern your studies findings from the special interests you have in pushing these supplements?

.....................................................

[b]you got it backwards bro. Unlike 99% of the people in the supplement business i actually design my supps based on years of study and experiements. If you read my books i recommended many f the ingredients way before i even had the supplements out.



..........................................................

Is there not some kind of special interest or bias in your "studies" from the very beginning? (hint: There is). What's your sample size? Have you any formal training in statistical methods around studies, especially ones of this magnitude?

................................

[i]that's bullshit. So who's studies do you believe? People who get grants to prove one thing or another? "university studies which are just very loosely conducted in colleges also to prove one thing or another? One or two random, sloppily run med study by doctors who don't know dick about steroids? This argument is getting so old. [/i]


.,.....................................................

5. Perhaps it was premature of me to assume that you had not done pct. I was under the assumption that you were on hrt which you would not have to do pct. My apologies for the assumption and the original argument that now holds no water.

..........................

yeah, i actually had a life before hrt. I wasn't born old! : )


..............................................


How? I never claimed that i knew anything about the subject of pct. My argument is against your [lack of] logic to prove points.

.........................

[b]i think i use pretty cogent logic. You either follow it or you don't. Some people used to think morons like fonzie and ulter were "logical" because they cut and pasted studies. I think beyond that.


..................................

If you've done your homework, nelson, then your first post would, at the very least, include hcg in its prescription form and aromatase inhibitors [both are drugs that do work, and work very well by the way]. Or else i suggest you retitle the article/thread "nelson montana's opinion on how to do an all herbal pct"

.....................

[b]you're showing your lack of knowledge again. I do recommend real hcg and ai. So, you seem to be arguing with the wrong person.
[
/i]


..............................


I don't doubt the effectiveness of the drugs or supplements listed in the first post. I haven't used them so i can't comment one way or another.


......................

ah ha!

Isn't that always the case?









.....
 
i did no such thing. If anything your argument can be considered a strawman argument simply stating that it's misrepresentation and leaving it at that. Then you addied accusations which have been proven wrong. So this line of arguing goes nowhere. Next....

"Drugs don't work"

Was this just an asinine statement, or an attention getter to get me into this thread? Pretty general statement don't you think? You took clomid and nolvadex as examples and then said "drugs don't work" - maybe not explicitly but it was implied. It's an all encompassing statement you should have left it at "clomid and nolvadex don't work."

..................................

I've recommended ai in the past. In fact, at one time people said i crazy to do so and that only serms worked. No you're making an argument for ai. Interesting. You're essentially arguing my point.

Your point in this thread was that "drugs dont work" and "use these herbal alternatives" if thats what I got from this thread then thats what every newbie looking for advice is going to get from it too. I'm still boggled why you didn't mention AI's and HCG in the the first post. If you've championed those in the past then I applaud you for being on the cutting edge of PCT, but then I question your negligence for skipping over them in the first post. Is that so you could follow up with the statement of "PCT is a time to get off drugs..."?

So you admit that drugs like AI's and HCG work well for recovery, but you're also saying you shouldn't take more drugs for PCT? Not sure which position you want to hold.

It's not just about being natural. That was never my point. You missed that one big time. I've said hundreds of tiems that at some point the body has to take over in a natural state. That, is undeniable.


Why would I disagree that the body has to take over in a natural state after using anabolics? The very definition of Post cycle therapy is the use of aids to return to that pre-steroid natural state.

..............................

you got it backwards bro. Unlike 99% of the people in the supplement business i actually design my supps based on years of study and experiements. If you read my books i recommended many f the ingredients way before i even had the supplements out.

Admittedly, I have not read your books.

................................

that's bullshit. So who's studies do you believe? People who get grants to prove one thing or another? "university studies which are just very loosely conducted in colleges also to prove one thing or another? One or two random, sloppily run med study by doctors who don't know dick about steroids? This argument is getting so old.

I dont know, you haven't posted any studies to back up any claims as far as I can tell. I don't have to disprove you, you have to prove your assertions. That's how logic works.

..................................

I think i use pretty cogent logic. You either follow it or you don't. Some people used to think morons like fonzie and ulter were "logical" because they cut and pasted studies. I think beyond that.


Fonz... lol, and before that it was JuicedAuthority. At least you look like you play the part, Nelson. I give you props.

The ulter camp I still hold in high regards generally. I think Macro is a very intelligent person. (I don't hang out over there despite what some of you may think).

..................................


you're showing your lack of knowledge again. I do recommend real hcg and ai. So, you seem to be arguing with the wrong person.


"Drugs don't work" "PCT is a time to get off drugs..." - or are these statements out of context?

......................

ah ha!

Isn't that always the case?


I've said I've used post cycle and unleashed before and I liked them. But if you're going to be a salesman, especially in the case of this thread, you need to convince me better.
 
I like arguing with you Nelson, sorry if I come off like a dick sometimes :)
 
i did no such thing. If anything your argument can be considered a strawman argument simply stating that it's misrepresentation and leaving it at that. Then you addied accusations which have been proven wrong. So this line of arguing goes nowhere. Next....

"Drugs don't work"

Was this just an asinine statement, or an attention getter to get me into this thread? Pretty general statement don't you think? You took clomid and nolvadex as examples and then said "drugs don't work" - maybe not explicitly but it was implied. It's an all encompassing statement you should have left it at "clomid and nolvadex don't work."

..................................

I'LL TITLE MY POSTS THE WAY I WANT. YOU TITLE YOURS THE WAY YOU WANT.

..........................

I've recommended ai in the past. In fact, at one time people said i crazy to do so and that only serms worked. No you're making an argument for ai. Interesting. You're essentially arguing my point.

Your point in this thread was that "drugs dont work" and "use these herbal alternatives" if thats what I got from this thread then thats what every newbie looking for advice is going to get from it too. I'm still boggled why you didn't mention AI's and HCG in the the first post. If you've championed those in the past then I applaud you for being on the cutting edge of PCT, but then I question your negligence for skipping over them in the first post. Is that so you could follow up with the statement of "PCT is a time to get off drugs..."?

.............................

NOW YOU'RE JUST PICKING ON SHIT TO PICK ON SHIT. I'M NOT HERE TO EXPLAIN EVERY LITTLE DETAIL TO YOU PERSONALLY.


.............................................


Why would I disagree that the body has to take over in a natural state after using anabolics? The very definition of Post cycle therapy is the use of aids to return to that pre-steroid natural state.

..............................


YOU CAN'T DO THAT AND BE DEPENDENT ON DRUGS AT THE SAME TIME.


.......................


Admittedly, I have not read your books.

................................


YOU SHOULD.


..............................

..................................

I think i use pretty cogent logic. You either follow it or you don't. Some people used to think morons like fonzie and ulter were "logical" because they cut and pasted studies. I think beyond that.


Fonz... lol, and before that it was JuicedAuthority. At least you look like you play the part, Nelson. I give you props.

...............................

ALRIGHTY THEN.


.............................

I've said I've used post cycle and unleashed before and I liked them. But if you're going to be a salesman, especially in the case of this thread, you need to convince me better.

..........................

THEY WORKED FOR YOU BUT YOU NEED TO BE CONVINCED FURTHER? DUDE, TALK ABOUT A LACK OF LOGIC!!! LOL!

...
 
Too much of speculating but..
Nelson i want to thank you and also UA_iron of all the infos above
and i think your arguing is too much for any of us in terms of "steroids"
nobody will ever want to understand all of that even if they read it...
Nobody will trust you and everybody will act as they think it's right..
At the moment of truth your words will be passing through their heads but nothing will change
they will still do their own thing until they really feel what they need to take,and what can be really effective..
Those are studies that u're debating....reality is different for everyone.
 
Too much of speculating but..
Nelson i want to thank you and also UA_iron of all the infos above
and i think your arguing is too much for any of us in terms of "steroids"
nobody will ever want to understand all of that even if they read it...
Nobody will trust you and everybody will act as they think it's right..
At the moment of truth your words will be passing through their heads but nothing will change
they will still do their own thing until they really feel what they need to take,and what can be really effective..
Those are studies that u're debating....reality is different for everyone.

Absolutely true. It's very difficult to get people to question what's familiar. It takes thought, analysis, investigation, introspection and experience. Most people aren't goin to attempt that. It's easier to just say "this is what I've been told and that's that.

But it's my gig to do those things and to pass the information on to those who are curious. It's really for the more advanced guys.

Of course there will always be the guys who question it and it's my job to explain it -- even if it doesn't get through.

In some ways, I feel like this is arguing about religion. There's really no evidence of a god and all the the available information is contradictory and doesn't really prove anything. But there are those who will say "Hey, it's in the bible and you can't argue with that." Nothing is going to chance that person's opinion -- but I still have to say what my logic, experience and common sense tells me what's right.
 
But it's my gig to do those things and to pass the information on to those who are curious. It's really for the more advanced guys.

I'm one of them and i thank you :)

Of course there will always be the guys who question it and it's my job to explain it -- even if it doesn't get through.

Do it 'cuz you can really help (not just talk like others).

In some ways, I feel like this is arguing about religion. There's really no evidence of a god and all the the available information is contradictory and doesn't really prove anything. But there are those who will say "Hey, it's in the bible and you can't argue with that." Nothing is going to chance that person's opinion -- but I still have to say what my logic, experience and common sense tells me what's right.

Best example u could have done,that's for sure the truth.
But in time all of your theories will come in front of anabolic users
and then...?hehe....u get it,happy i've read it all.

:coffee:
 
Nelson, can you use HCG on cycle, the HCGenerate + Post Cycle + Forma Stanzol during PCT?

I think HCGen works better whilr on to slow suppression on cycle. Forma can be a little suppressive if you stay on for too long so it's best on cycle and then come off for PCT. UNLEASHED and POST CYCLE for PCT and then BRIDGE.
 
very interesting. i've never used any of the supplements you mentioned. so when, how much and how long would you use each one?
 
So much information so much i dont understand hahaha. Either way interesting information and debate. Thanks.
 
this was one of the most interesting thread I've read in years
thank all parties for the debate
there is a lot to take into thought here,thanks again!
 
well there is always a good mix of everything that will get the job done. i have always just used a ai and two or three different ways to boost test and other stuff supressed by gear i always run a natty test booster during to keep my fellers down bellow alive also. i am young with no kids so i have to keep them around.
 
At some things, not others.

No vitamin or OTC supplement can beat clomid when it comes to pct. I'll stand by that statement, as will the entirety of the steroid community that is NOT elitefitness (read: elite-bodiez)

I'll leave it to real pharmacies :devil:
 
No vitamin or OTC supplement can beat clomid when it comes to pct. I'll stand by that statement, as will the entirety of the steroid community that is NOT elitefitness (read: elite-bodiez)

I'll leave it to real pharmacies :devil:


You seem confused. Nobody is talking about VitaminC. And as far as CLomid goes, I'd rather use nothing than use Clomid.

And let me guess ... you've never used the products in question.

I thought so.
 
You seem confused. Nobody is talking about VitaminC. And as far as CLomid goes, I'd rather use nothing than use Clomid.

And let me guess ... you've never used the products in question.

I thought so.

You'd use nothing for pct, rather than using clomid?

Do elaborate
 
You seem confused. Nobody is talking about VitaminC.

I'm not talking about vitamin c either. Any time someone disagrees with you, your first tactic is to belittle them. I used the word "vitamin", which accurately describes ANY OTC supplement, and you try to check me down with some childish "you seem confused" statement?

I'll just let your words about clomid speak for themselves. Why you are so adamantly opposed to clomid and other hormonal pct drugs makes sense now. I didn't realize that you actually made the supplements you push. That's great, that's normal, I would push something I made too.

Have a good thread... I will politely duck out maintaining what I know, and respect what you know as well.
 
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I'm not talking about vitamin c either. Any time someone disagrees with you, your first tactic is to belittle them. I used the word "vitamin", which accurately describes ANY OTC supplement, and you try to check me down with some childish "you seem confused" statement?

I'll just let your words about clomid speak for themselves. Why you are so adamantly opposed to clomid and other hormonal pct drugs makes sense now. I didn't realize that you actually made the supplements you push. That's great, that's normal, I would push something I made too.

Have a good thread... I will politely duck out maintaining what I know, and respect what you know as well.

You SPECIFICALLY said Vitamin C bro. I was QUOTING YOU. How is that belittling you?

And yes, I made those supplements as an alternative to a shitty drug. That's the point. It's not like I just bought some stuff and told people to not use an effective drug in its place. I would never do that. I also recommend products to which I have no connection to and do not make a dime from them.

You're way confused bro. Get your facts straight.
 
No vitamin or OTC supplement can beat clomid when it comes to pct. I'll stand by that statement, as will the entirety of the steroid community that is NOT elitefitness (read: elite-bodiez)

I'll leave it to real pharmacies :devil:

@ Nelson above, this is my post. Quoted. In its entirety. It is unedited and mentions "vitamins or OTC supplements. No vitamin C.

Don't be so belittling, it makes it awfully difficult to want to purchase your products when you keep telling everyone they're uneducated and confused.

Play nice...
 
I'm not talking about vitamin c either. Any time someone disagrees with you, your first tactic is to belittle them. I used the word "vitamin", which accurately describes ANY OTC supplement, and you try to check me down with some childish "you seem confused" statement?

I'll just let your words about clomid speak for themselves. Why you are so adamantly opposed to clomid and other hormonal pct drugs makes sense now. I didn't realize that you actually made the supplements you push. That's great, that's normal, I would push something I made too.

Have a good thread... I will politely duck out maintaining what I know, and respect what you know as well.

WHat you have said is childish and retarded. I make and sell products that I 100% support and feel are far far better then clomid and or nolva.

BUT I ALSO MAKE AND SELL BOTH CLOMID AND NOLVA TOO!!!!!!! NOW WHAT MOTHER FUCKER!!!! Keep your accusations of it only being about money to your self. Because I can promise you that no matter what the fuck you or anyone thinks is what should be preached as the " only" pct that works. I CAN MAKE MONEY OFF IT!!! And I also own 5 of my own companies , inclduing a Media company and a MMA gym, retail property and rental as well. My motives behind why I think clomid and nolva suck balls for pct has nothing to do with money...

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...e-support-drug-steroid-user-bible-778853.html
I have yet to see you show your face in here bro?? O please O please come and defend your beloved clomid and nolva in this thread!!

Ya I thought not.
 
@ Nelson above, this is my post. Quoted. In its entirety. It is unedited and mentions "vitamins or OTC supplements. No vitamin C.

Don't be so belittling, it makes it awfully difficult to want to purchase your products when you keep telling everyone they're uneducated and confused.

Play nice...

I admit, I read the VitC wrong, you said just "Vitamin" but I still don't see where I belittled you. You're the one making claims and I said I'll bet you never used the products,. Am I right?

As far as the "whole Bodybuilding community" , well, they've been wrong about so many things over the years, what makes you think they're right about clomid and nolva when tome after time after time, they not only fail to work, but cause nasty side effects.

You're confused because you're making the classic mistake of thinking that these drugs are actually designed for the purpose of PCT. They are a female fertility drug and an anti cancer drug.

Look, I'm not going to get into this with you because I know where this is headed. Read this and get back to me: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/a...e-support-drug-steroid-user-bible-778853.html
 
I'll read the herbal pct thread if you agree to stop typing in caps and calling me "MOTHERFUCKER"... I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy if I did that to yall.

Looking forward to the thread, will read it later tonight.
 
Unlike some of the people posting, I HAVE read your book. It was amazing, and I have been using your suggestions for a year or so with great results. However, I do have a few questions about PCT.

1. Given that I am doing the short cycles (relative to the current norm) that you recommend, would you still forgo prescription based PCT completely (specifically low dose HCG)?

I plan on using a T blend this time around, and my main concern is from a study showing that HPTA of human males was severely hampered after as little as 30 days of 250mg/w T. It was only a 30 day study, so there is nothing to show how much further the HPTA was affected in an 8+ week cycle. I was also only able to see a summary of the study, not the actual study.

Note: Your recommended product "HCGenerate" is currently out of stock, do you have viable alternatives, are all the ingredients still legal, or should I just buy them individual.

2. Do you feel that an AI (specifically aromasin) is important during a short or long T based cycle or would herbal supplements be more/less effective? Are these at all useful PC since your T is already low?

From what I can tell, there is strong, but limited, anecdotal evidence/testemonials of seasoned cycle veterans seem to strongly suggest low dose, daily aromasin as mandatory during a T based cycle. Letrozole being seen as much too strong for improving the E:T balance, as some E is important.

3. Because your book was written a few years ago, I was wondering if you still recommend the same products (I know some of the recommendations you made in your first book changed slightly in the second) and are there any new ones out there, that you feel are backed with enough scientific evidence to support their use?

P.S. I would love to see an updated version of Bottomline Bodybuilding, it's really one of the most informative books and unconventional books I've read on this subject.
 
Unlike some of the people posting, I HAVE read your book. It was amazing, and I have been using your suggestions for a year or so with great results. However, I do have a few questions about PCT.

1. Given that I am doing the short cycles (relative to the current norm) that you recommend, would you still forgo prescription based PCT completely (specifically low dose HCG)?

........................

Yes, though I still recommend using HCG as a jumpstart.



.....................................

I plan on using a T blend this time around, and my main concern is from a study showing that HPTA of human males was severely hampered after as little as 30 days of 250mg/w T. It was only a 30 day study, so there is nothing to show how much further the HPTA was affected in an 8+ week cycle. I was also only able to see a summary of the study, not the actual study.

Note: Your recommended product "HCGenerate" is currently out of stock, do you have viable alternatives, are all the ingredients still legal, or should I just buy them individual.

................

Yes, use BRIDGE as an alternative. Any cycle is going to hamper HPTA and it takes a while for it to recover. That's why you want to get FreeT as high as possible as fast as possible. That's what makes UNLEASHED so important starting a few days after your last shot.

............................

2. Do you feel that an AI (specifically aromasin) is important during a short or long T based cycle or would herbal supplements be more/less effective? Are these at all useful PC since your T is already low?

.......................

It depends how susceptible you are to estro sides. A little a-dex is good tom have on hand. You don;t need a lot.


..........................

From what I can tell, there is strong, but limited, anecdotal evidence/testemonials of seasoned cycle veterans seem to strongly suggest low dose, daily aromasin as mandatory during a T based cycle. Letrozole being seen as much too strong for improving the E:T balance, as some E is important.

3. Because your book was written a few years ago, I was wondering if you still recommend the same products (I know some of the recommendations you made in your first book changed slightly in the second) and are there any new ones out there, that you feel are backed with enough scientific evidence to support their use?

.................

A lot of the ingredients I recommended have been put into the products POST CYCLE and UNLEASHED.


............................

P.S. I would love to see an updated version of Bottomline Bodybuilding, it's really one of the most informative books and unconventional books I've read on this subject.[

.................

Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it.

/QUOTE]


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